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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:01 pm
by Mughal
sum wrote:Hello Mughal

Your quote -
If I say 5, what sense it makes to you? None. Why not? Because it has no context which could show its purpose and therefore it could make sense to you.

Are the ahadith context for the Koran where Muhammad`s words and deeds are explanations of the Koranic text?

Did Muhammad truly, and without exception, fully understand the meaning of the Koran and act accordingly?

sum


Dear sum, did you see me rejecting ahadith outright? What I am saying is that quran is in different category than hadith because one is said to be word of God and other words of people as people reported certain things. When people reported things some people noticed that some lied and other misrepresented them and yet other misinterpreted them. So it will be good idea to first sort out this problems with each and every hadith book then after that we can see which report may be true or false. Once we have possible true reports then by all means use them to see how things might have been conducting by the prophet and his companions. The quran bears witness that no messenger ever went against God deliberately including muhammad. So end result will be that all reports which cannot be interpreted according to stories in the quran will be rejected as false. This was the rule always when it came to acceptance of hadith reports. The quran must be explained by the quran in light of self evident facts. It is called tafseer al quran bil quran principle.

The real questions are, why people misinterpreted the quran and misrepresented it and who were these people? A lot of it is explained within the quran itself even if one reads faulty translations. After all what was the real fight between Pharaoh and Moses? What was the fight between Noah and chiefs of his people? The quran keeps telling us fight was almost always between messengers of Allah and chiefs of the people to whom these messengers were sent. After messengers defeated chiefs in debate if people supported them then they set up divine kingdom otherwise they took their supporters and shifted to some other place where in they set up the ruling system that God told them. However after the messengers passed away later generations turned back to old bad ways of life and so more messengers were sent to them later and so things kept on repeating. The good and bad was all about proper management of human populations and resources for the good of whole human communities. The question is, how did people change back from divine set up? It is because people became lazy or slack in keeping up with requirements of a good state that is properly organised and regulated on good foundation, so opportunists took over and gradually good state became bad to worst. When that happens people try to change their social contracts therefore scriptures in various way so that they could have things their way from then on. This is why when it comes to quran and hadith same happened after the death of the prophet. A group of mullahs was invented and given the task of misinterpreting the quran and hadith and misrepresenting them in such a way that justified imperialism in the name of God and islam.

So a lot of things that have been invented found their way into books of hadith. This is why whatever imperialist wanted to be lawful in the name of islam they attributed it to the name of prophet. This is why the books of laws that came about in those times are not proper laws of islam. They very clearly contradict quranic framework which ought to be guidelines for formation of laws. This is why the islam preached by mullahs is not islam that we find in the quran text. It is quite straightforward to prove that from words and the way they manipulated them for their ends.

This is why the main task for muslims is to reinterpret things back to original concepts because those concepts have basis in reality where as mullahs islam is imaginary islam based upon their invented make beliefs to suit themselves.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:19 pm
by frankie
Mughal:

You have not answered my question.

I want to know, if I were a Muslim reading these words in my holy book, how would I put them into action to fulfil Allah's message to humanity.

If we are to believe what you tell us, that you are interpreting the Quran as it should be read, then it should be no problem to answer such a simple question.

Go ahead, and prove your assertions.


I see verses in the Quran that tell Muslims to fight and kill in Allah's cause, if I am wrong in taking such verses literally, how should I read these verses in the way that Allah wants me to understand?

"fight those who do not believe in Allah..." 9.29
and
"Allah has purchased of the believers their persons and their goods, theirs in return is the garden of paradise, they fight in his cause, and kill and are killed....... 9.111

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:46 pm
by pr126
The Quran does not mean what it says.

It needs the magic decoder ring that Mughal got hold of, so he is now able to "interpret" Allah's message properly.

Allah be praised.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:59 pm
by Mughal
pr126 wrote:Mughal,

if the Quran can be only understood properly in ancient Arabic, and even then, only by a very few "gifted people" such as yourself, then obviously it was not meant for all mankind.

It is then solely an Arab "religion", forced upon the rest of the world by the sword and deception.


dear pr126, our existence never depended upon divine revelations because we are self learning creatures, it depended upon our own brains and senses therefore life experiences. Revelation comes into play after we have learned things to the level that we can make use of divine revelation. If a lion comes to eat you, you don't wait for God to come and tell you run for your life. The natural world is there for our learning through observation only when we realise the need for having divine guidance that we can consult it to see how it can help us overcome our problems that we see all around us or if we wish to know purpose of existence etc etc.

The quran is for humanity but in the sense I have explained. The universities are there for people but only when the reach that level whereat they can benefit from university education.

The Quran is not book of any religion but a book of guidance for mankind in matters related to human society, politics and economics etc. It is telling people don't use and abuse each other for personal gains at the expense of community spirit.

Social breakdown in all societies is only round the corner and that will prove what the quran is all about when mankind corner each other without any way out of it.

World is not against quran because it is a religious holy book for worship but because it is targeted with useless propaganda by those who stand to lose most if the quranic message gets through to masses ie people who are on the top of the list of use and abuse of humanity. How long this situation is going to last none of us knows but so long as this situation carries on humanity will continue suffer the because of it. May be it will help people wake up to realities of real world sooner than later.

well let us keep hope alive. regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:53 pm
by pr126
Reinterpreting the Quran

No book should be interpreted in any other way than its explicit meaning, especially if it purports to be a book of guidance. A book of guidance must be clear and without equivocation leaving no room for interpretation. If it does, then it is no longer a clear book of guidance.

A divine book of guidance must be understandable by everyone. Let us say you are lost and you stop to ask someone for direction. Don’t you expect to receive a clear direction? Will you trust this person if he points to different directions? I am sure you’d think he is a kook. So why should we rely on someone claiming to have come with a clear divine guidance whose guidance is confusing, contradictory and require interpretation?


The best answer to show that the Quran must not be interpreted in any other way than its obvious meaning comes from the Quran itself. The Quran repeatedly claims to be a “clear book” (5:15) “easy to understand” (44:58 , 54:22 , 54:32, 54:40) “explained in detail” (6:114), “conveyed clearly”, (5:16, 10:15) and with “no doubt” in it (2:1). Are you going to interpret these verses too?

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 4:57 pm
by Centaur
Well the only purpose of Moran was to facilitate the sexual and material desires of mohammed
Read it again without rewriting it as a new book

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 5:24 pm
by frankie
Mughal:

You are wilfully ignoring my question.

This tells me you are as much a charlatan as your false prophet.

You dare not answer, as to do so would reveal the Quran for as exactly what it is, a mish mash of historical events showing how 7th century Pagan Arabia operated i.e. tribal warfare, idolatry, sexual slavery, child marriage, booty and extortion money, to expand the control of warring warlords, plus the words and actions of a deluded pagan Arabian, who placed himself as the mouthpiece of an already known pagan entity, Allah. Mohammed just became one of his contemporises, hell bent on power, wealth and control. He just placed all what was familiar to him,plagiarizing existing belief systems along the way, to give a veneer of authenticity to a so called religion, all for the sake of his massive ego trip.

History has thrown up many of these deluded power hungry men, they all follow the same pattern of evil, the give away for all these false prophets is SELF first,then kill those not agreeing with their mindset.

Mughal, you have fallen for one of the biggest religious deceptions of all time.

Your time would be far better employed in leaving this fake religion, which by your own writings on this Forum shows how much damage this belief system can do to a human being.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 6:34 pm
by Hombre
Gentlamen,
the more one reads Mughal's replies, the less his posts make any sense. Numerous times we have asked him direct and poignant questions - point out the source of his replies - all to to no avail. He continues wth the same vague and murky intellectual foot dancing - going off to high minded philosophical arguments - lecture us as 9 year old children. Try to convince others, how sophisticated the Quran is written, to which he pointed out, "only those with complete knowledge of Ancient Arabic could understand". Utter nonsense

In his replies, he never cites any Sura or verses from the Quran, then responds in a manner which others could understand. He reminds me a joke which I heard many years ago:.
A comedian on stage shows a square white sheet to the crowed, and asks. "do you know what this picture is?. The crowed replies "no, we don't". The comedian then says, "This is a 3000 year old picture - showing one of the most important historical evens in Jews history. This is the picture of THE Exodus from Egypt?. One of the kids jumps up and asks......... "where are the Jews?. "gee" replied the comedian, "You missed them, they are already gone". And where the Egyptians" asked the same kid. "They have not arrived yet. you have to wait a bit longer".

The same irony applies to our good friend Mughal. Either he is a troll, who liked to screw with people's mind - jazz them up and watch the replies (and there are few of them out there). Or he is a product of continued brainwash, to which, he fails to recognize or admit.

At this point I see no point to contiune to argue with him further.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:39 pm
by idesigner1
Long before Moghul was talking like an apostate.

He got tired of that role or thought he will go to hell for his apostasy.

Then he became Koran only muslim with his own interpretation and his own Arabic to English dictionary.

He has no knowledge of Arabic .His mother tongue is perhaps Urdu. MMany time I asked him for how many years he spent learning Koran in Arabic. He never gave my answer.

He translates word war to struggle. He has his own arabic to english dictionary, of course without understanding Arabic.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:16 am
by Mughal
Dear friend, get used to thinking things through thoroughly rather than arguing like babies. Read the interpretation and make sense of it and see if it fits together or not.

The quran is about human society not war and peace. War and peace are part of islam in context of human community.

The book explains what is islamic society all about if you like it you educate others about it and when people are educated about it and they like it then they can bring it about. It is simple as that.

You are telling me islamic society the quran is putting forth is rubbish because mullahs tell us the islamic society is this or that. I am telling you that is not what the quran is saying. If it was then I will not be arguing for it. Now you cannot know what I am saying till you read what I have written and pay attention to things. Instead you are failing yourselves and others by pulling things in the wrong direction.

You keep telling me the quran should be this or that. I am telling you the quran is what it is and it had to be this way because the quran could not be any other way, if it can be then go ahead and tell me, how it exactly should be in your view so that I could point out to you your mistakes in your way of thinking.

God has set a standard, it is fixed in position. people have been given ability to learn and change with time. The more and more people learn the closer and closer people are moving towards standard set by God. It is a very simple mechanism. As people learn more and more they will keep on reinterpreting same facts in better and better light so the same quranic text will make better and better sense as time goes on therefore new interpretations of the text will be inevitable.

You want God to teach you right from your birth till you die but then that amounts to fully programmed minds where there is no room for human choice and self learning and doing. This is the point you are failing to realise. Stop looking at gods in your heads and examine the god that is portrayed by the quran.

It is a wrong way to look at different things and mix them together and then say this is all rubbish. look at quran only and see what it says about everything and see if it makes sense in itself. then have other complete models similarly and set them against each other and see which one is most sensible.

Stop mixing some parts of plan and others of bike and yet others of car and then say we have something that makes no sense. build picture of islam from the quran with all honesty and then see if it is good or bad. If you cannot build a picture yourself see if anyone can do that. if anyone can then he is telling you the right thing because it works. So long as one builds a picture of islam from the quran that does not work when it is possible to build a picture that works then that is wrong picture one is showing you.

I am proving to you that from the quran one can build a picture of islam that works. This proves what i am saying about the quran is right and all of you are talking rubbish because you are not looking at the picture I am showing you, instead you are looking at the picture you have built of islam with help of ignorant mullahs and on that basis you are arguing with me, so look at the situation you are creating in all haste. Give yourselves time study the things and then come back to me.

You don't even realise the relationship between divine text and human mind in light of ability to learn by oneself. Don't you people have brains to realise that when a baby is born he is left most of the time on his own to figure things out for himself? No matter how eager you are to teach him whatever you wan to teach him as parents you need to wait till he can see what you are trying to teach him. You need to give him time to figure things out to a degree for himself before he can make sense of what you are teaching him. God has the same problem because that is the way he is created man for his purpose. You think god should do things magically because he is god and has power to do so. This is limit of your thought process. why don't you realise that god has purpose and a plan so he cannot use his power as he likes rather he has to do so in light of his purpose and plan.

You people have a lot to learn yet before you could figure out what i am talking about. So give yourselves a bit of rest and think things with fresh minds so that you may be able to understand things and let me carry on with what i am doing for the time being.

You people have no clue what I am talking about and that is not necessarily because I am not making any sense to you but may well be because you do not have the sense needed to make sense of what I am saying. So give yourselves the time and learn things that may be helpful for you in understanding things we are talking about.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 2:36 am
by Mughal
idesigner1 wrote:Long before Moghul was talking like an apostate.

He got tired of that role or thought he will go to hell for his apostasy.

Then he became Koran only muslim with his own interpretation and his own Arabic to English dictionary.

He has no knowledge of Arabic .His mother tongue is perhaps Urdu. MMany time I asked him for how many years he spent learning Koran in Arabic. He never gave my answer.

He translates word war to struggle. He has his own arabic to english dictionary, of course without understanding Arabic.


dear idesigner, this post of yours says a lot about you than me. anyhow I know quran better than many, if anyone knew the quran better than me then he ought to come up with these ideas that I have come up with long ago but they did not. The proof is in the eating of the pudding not in talking nonsense.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:00 am
by skynightblaze
Mughal wrote:dear idesigner, this post of yours says a lot about you than me. anyhow I know quran better than many, if anyone knew the quran better than me then he ought to come up with these ideas that I have come up with long ago but they did not. The proof is in the eating of the pudding not in talking nonsense.

regards and all the best.


The truth is you do not understand the quran at all. You are a self proclaimed pompous scholar. People did not come up with an idea like you because it is stupid and incorrect and not because it is intelligent as you believe. You are perhaps in the worst phase of your life where anyone who opposes your foolishness is deemed by you as talking nonsense or being dumb. Arrogance and stupidity is the worst combination.

We are still waiting for you to provide your credentials in arabic . You have made a grandeur claim that all the renowned translators of the quran have got it wrong and only you got it right. You have also failed to account for failure on the part of Allah to make his book clear. Simply claiming that people misinterpreted the teachings of quran does not solve the problem. It needs justification. Others (who have taught good teachings) have been able to communicate their message very effectively and CLEARLY even when there are people who are capable of misinterpretation and thereby exploit. This is because of being precise and leaving no room for interpretation. In short If Allah couldn't do help people from misinterpreting his words , he has FAILED and not the People!

Allah needs to adjust his teachings as per the audience level. If the audience are small kids then the teacher has to adjust his style or way of choosing his words so that kids understand everything. Blaming the kids for not understanding when you use sophisticated language that only mature people (self proclaimed scholars such as yourself) can understand is FAILURE on part of the teacher and not the intended audience! In our case you claim that it is ONLY you that understands the quran while the rest of the mankind have failed for 1400 long years! If you still cannot see how foolish your claims are then you are simply a TROLL.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 4:48 pm
by Mughal
skynightblaze wrote:
Mughal wrote:dear idesigner, this post of yours says a lot about you than me. anyhow I know quran better than many, if anyone knew the quran better than me then he ought to come up with these ideas that I have come up with long ago but they did not. The proof is in the eating of the pudding not in talking nonsense.

regards and all the best.


The truth is you do not understand the quran at all. You are a self proclaimed pompous scholar. People did not come up with an idea like you because it is stupid and incorrect and not because it is intelligent as you believe. You are perhaps in the worst phase of your life where anyone who opposes your foolishness is deemed by you as talking nonsense or being dumb. Arrogance and stupidity is the worst combination.

We are still waiting for you to provide your credentials in arabic . You have made a grandeur claim that all the renowned translators of the quran have got it wrong and only you got it right. You have also failed to account for failure on the part of Allah to make his book clear. Simply claiming that people misinterpreted the teachings of quran does not solve the problem. It needs justification. Others (who have taught good teachings) have been able to communicate their message very effectively and CLEARLY even when there are people who are capable of misinterpretation and thereby exploit. This is because of being precise and leaving no room for interpretation. In short If Allah couldn't do help people from misinterpreting his words , he has FAILED and not the People!

Allah needs to adjust his teachings as per the audience level. If the audience are small kids then the teacher has to adjust his style or way of choosing his words so that kids understand everything. Blaming the kids for not understanding when you use sophisticated language that only mature people (self proclaimed scholars such as yourself) can understand is FAILURE on part of the teacher and not the intended audience! In our case you claim that it is ONLY you that understands the quran while the rest of the mankind have failed for 1400 long years! If you still cannot see how foolish your claims are then you are simply a TROLL.



dear skynightblaze, the day you realise the errors you are committing in looking at things in a certain way you will join me. Meanwhile keep learning so that one day you could see your errors yourself.

If I say that you provide me with credentials that you are an intelligent person you cannot other than your ability to do things. If you cannot understand even this simple fact then I will have to wait till you realise it. This is why there is a saying that proof of the pudding is in the eating. No matter how many certificates and degree you have been awarded about anything if you cannot deliver what you claim to know then it is all nothing. Moreover everything in this world is for sale that is the kind of world we have brought about thanks to people like you who has this wrong notion that people can earn respects by doing the right thing. This is why nobody votes for those who can really do something for mankind. Where in the world do you find that money does not matter the most? Why people who claimed to be divine messenger were opposed by chiefs of tribes and kings or rulers? Why jesus was opposed by priests and money changers and rulers etc? Why he needed miracles rather than his words to prove his divinity? It is because people don't give credit where it is due and credit does not matter unless it is based upon solid foundation to begin with. If laws are unjust and unfair then justice is not done even though a judge has decided the matter as per law. You need to come out of personality cults. Personality cults are not just about religious people rather look at how people wag their tails when rulers and rich people come round here and there. Not only that look at movie stars and other celebrities in the world.

People need role models who live by solid principles but run after all kind of nonsense because they want to be like those people who have modelled themselves on foundation of personal gains at the expense of human community spirit. They are promoted by governments as alternative to moral foundation if you like. The results are coming and they will be here may be not in too distant future.

Look at africa and asia and if people don't start pulling back soon europe will be back in grip of terrible turmoil. It will be a lost opportunity. Nations that arose ought to pull the rest of them up but instead they oppressed and suppressed and the world is not going to escape consequences. This is why all people need to read and understand the message of the quran because we are faced with same end as the nations mentions in the scriptures.

You and others are hiding behind nonsense of mullahs due to your ignorance just like many others in the past but end result was not good for them and it will not be good for us either if we do not take the right road which ensures for us better future.

You are talking about the quran as if it is my book and only for me and has nothing to do with rest of mankind, the question for you is, is that right mindset, attitude and behaviour to have towards a scripture? Does a book not deserve proper examination when in your words it is followed by a billion and half people? Is that not credible enough for you? Moreover does it not surprise you that this book is supported by those most of whom have no idea what is in it?

So stop worrying about me and start worrying about yourself because you in hot haste may well miss the boat. Get yourself awareness as to where our world is heading so that you could realise the gravity of the situation. I rather not start posting all the good works the world's most powerful nations are doing to the most of the world population. The credible world that we are all a part of.

I am only a student of the quran and you can ignore me but to ignore the quran is to ignore bases for blissful and dignified life in the future. There is first time for everything and I am setting the trend for future translations of the quran and hope people read my work and work on it to improve it. I have still five parts to go through so I better get on with that. It is up to people to judge my work on the quran but it will take a little time before people are able to see the full picture. I have conceived a particular understanding of the quran and am expressing it and it will take time before people can see where I am trying to take them and whether they will be be willing to go there. One thing should be clear to all that we are all in this boat together and so long as we do not find way to get on with each other on some solid grounds the danger is our infighting will sink the boat.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 5:05 pm
by Mughal

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 7:18 pm
by skynightblaze
Mughal wrote:dear skynightblaze, the day you realise the errors you are committing in looking at things in a certain way you will join me. Meanwhile keep learning so that one day you could see your errors yourself.


You are erroneous and it doesn't take a genius to see it. When you were apostate, you used to write sensibly but you have taken a u turn just like "The Cat". I see more the closer you go to islam, the more you go away from logic and reasoning.

Mughal wrote:If I say that you provide me with credentials that you are an intelligent person you cannot other than your ability to do things. If you cannot understand even this simple fact then I will have to wait till you realise it. This is why there is a saying that proof of the pudding is in the eating. No matter how many certificates and degree you have been awarded about anything if you cannot deliver what you claim to know then it is all nothing.


I am not claiming myself to be intelligent. If I did, I have to explain what I mean by intelligence and bring proofs to back my claims. Similarly when you claim that renowned and standard arabic translator have incorrectly translated the quran, the burden of proof lies on you to justify that claim. For this we need to know your credentials in arabic. If you are not an expert on arabic then your translation does not qualify. Btw I have never claimed to be intelligent so I have not made any claim that I need to prove.

Mughal wrote: Moreover everything in this world is for sale that is the kind of world we have brought about thanks to people like you who has this wrong notion that people can earn respects by doing the right thing. This is why nobody votes for those who can really do something for mankind.


What is wrong in believing that respect is earned by doing the right thing? Why would someone respect a person who does a wrong thing? You claim to do something for mankind but are you really doing a service to mankind? This is the debatable point. You are trying to put on a lipstick on a pig in the hope that people may find it attractive. That is deception ! So how can deceiving mankind benefit it? . Plenty of people have tried this kind of approach and failed. Islam is evil and evil things need to be thrown in the trash. If you really want to do something for mankind hate the evil and not mask it to present it as something good.

Mughal wrote: Where in the world do you find that money does not matter the most? Why people who claimed to be divine messenger were opposed by chiefs of tribes and kings or rulers? Why jesus was opposed by priests and money changers and rulers etc? Why he needed miracles rather than his words to prove his divinity? It is because people don't give credit where it is due and credit does not matter unless it is based upon solid foundation to begin with.


How can someone give credit to anyone if he/she does not prove his/her worth? Instead of Jesus , let us say a person X claims to be the messenger of God. Why should anyone trust Jesus or Muhammad and not X who also makes the same claim? Shouldn't there be something unique about a person making such claims? If Jesus performed miracles then it is obviously the right way to differentiate himself from other charlatans. Now whether he really performed miracles or not is a different issue.

Mughal wrote: If laws are unjust and unfair then justice is not done even though a judge has decided the matter as per law. You need to come out of personality cults. Personality cults are not just about religious people rather look at how people wag their tails when rulers and rich people come round here and there. Not only that look at movie stars and other celebrities in the world.

People need role models who live by solid principles but run after all kind of nonsense because they want to be like those people who have modelled themselves on foundation of personal gains at the expense of human community spirit. They are promoted by governments as alternative to moral foundation if you like. The results are coming and they will be here may be not in too distant future.


People do run after money and glamor and they want to follow role models for the same. It seems that you do not like that but at the same time you have no problem when islam makes people run after personal desires. I mean if you believe in Allah you get the beautiful big breasted virgins, rivers of wine and honey, fruits etc etc. What is this if not personal gain? You want to follow Allah a role model just because you want worldly gains in the life hereafter? If you are going to be consistent in your reasoning then you should also reject Allah as a role model.

Mughal wrote:Look at africa and asia and if people don't start pulling back soon europe will be back in grip of terrible turmoil. It will be a lost opportunity. Nations that arose ought to pull the rest of them up but instead they oppressed and suppressed and the world is not going to escape consequences. This is why all people need to read and understand the message of the quran because we are faced with same end as the nations mentions in the scriptures.


Well if people are going to read quran then the world will be in more danger than it was ever before. History is a strong proof of that. Millions of people have died because of islam so proofs are actually against you.

Mughal wrote:You and others are hiding behind nonsense of mullahs due to your ignorance just like many others in the past but end result was not good for them and it will not be good for us either if we do not take the right road which ensures for us better future.


None is denying that mullahs are teaching nonsense. What everyone is claiming is that nonsense comes directly from the quran and ahadith. This is not due to our ignorance but due to our solid understanding of what islam teaches. We therefore want to eliminate the culprit and make the future better for the generations to follow.

Mughal wrote: You are talking about the quran as if it is my book and only for me and has nothing to do with rest of mankind, the question for you is, is that right mindset, attitude and behaviour to have towards a scripture?


Quran is a recipe to disaster. It teaches hatred of unbelievers and terrorism amongst many other evil things..Therefore quran cannot be for mankind and it cannot be for me and this attitude is correct because we have already seen the damage that quran can do. WE can trace the actions of muslims back to the book.

Mughal wrote: Does a book not deserve proper examination when in your words it is followed by a billion and half people? Is that not credible enough for you? Moreover does it not surprise you that this book is supported by those most of whom have no idea what is in it?


Ofcourse a book followed by billion and half deserve proper examination. I have never denied it. What I have denied is the conclusions that you draw after examining it. I see Quran has a cause of problems in the world while you see lack of adherence to quran as the cause of problems in the world.

Finally I am surprised that most people have idea about what quran says apart from you. You seem to be totally disconnected and in a different world of delusion. Actions of muslims can be mapped to what quran and ahadith say. So if anyone does not have an idea about quran then it is you and not others.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 14, 2013 8:47 pm
by sum
Hello Mughal

Your quote -
The real questions are, why people misinterpreted the quran and misrepresented it and who were these people?

You are the one who is avoiding the real question.

Can you show me where any of Muhammad`s evil deeds contradicted the guidance in the Koran?

Muhammad killed, beheaded and mutilated people who resisted his claims to be a prophet. He raped captives and had sex with a 9yr old girl. He tortured people. He stoned people yet no stoning is in the Koran but there is no reprimand from Allah. He robbed tribes and caravans which the Koran condoned as lawful and good. He exiled tribes. He committed genocide. He took slaves and traded slaves. He lied.

Did any of these actions contradict the Koran? If they did not then they must be legal according to Islam and which muslims today can follow as Muhammed was the perfect example to follow.

It would appear that Allah condoned these heinous actions to the point where there is no distinction between Allah and Muhammad.

Did Muhammad follow the guidance in the Koran? Did he practice perfect Islam? Did he fully understand the message in the Koran?

sum

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 5:53 pm
by Mughal
Dear skynightblaze, I am very much logical and reasonable but the point you are failing to realise is the context I am proposing in my study of the quran. I know it is not that easy because it took me very long time to realise that. The reason not that it was impossible to get to grips with but because when you are led up the wrong tree you bypass the proper track. It is because governments are very good at using and abusing their people so muslim rulers and mullahs and money lenders, wealthy people and business for profit people turned quran into a book of religion in order to move it out of their way to make the road clear for themselves due to greed for power and dominance etc. As you know when children are able to learn they are sent to mullahs so you can see how they indoctrinate and program people. This is why it takes much more effort to see what the actual truth might be. You can make any piece of text easy or hard by programming people before they are able to judge things for themselves through make beliefs. This is why when mullahs instil make beliefs in minds of kids and ignorant adults and after that they read the quran then they only see confirmation of what they have been programmed with. Once they are programmed they pass on the same nonsense to later generations and so people blindly follow each other like sheep. Nonetheless someone comes along and breaks this continuity and that is how debates and discussions begin and the truth comes out. The conflict of interests helps mankind argue against each other and that is how humanity gradually moves to whatever the truth might be in a case. This is why when some try to use the quran the wrong way it leads to problems for others and this division leads to reaction and so none of the factions is then in actual control of things.

There is no such thing as a perfect all aware human being, we all suffer from human errors, some more than others. This is why the proof is important and I explained what the proof is and how it proves the point. When people offers explanations about something the only explanation that stands is the one that works. So long an explanation is available that works, not only you but none of us can oppose it on willy nilly grounds. This is why any explanation that works needs no further proofs because it is proof in itself. My problem with translations is not of the nature you may have in mind, the words used in the translations have those meanings but that same words have alternative meanings as well, this is why on that accou8nt my translation is not wrong either. But the decisive point is context because without a proper context no text is valid. This is why I reject those translation and call them invalid because if we examine those translations then they give rise to so many objections due to various reasons. This of course needs a detail discussion about each and every words used in the quran but it can be done. Each word has concepts attached to it but in text only that concept is valid that fits the context or gives rise to a context without any lose ends. For this one has to look at things in great detail and that is why it is taking me so long to understand things the quran is talking about.

As for your saying that you do not claim to be expert is a contradiction in itself because then you have no ground to argue the case you are arguing. The people you claim are expert disagree with each other in a big way and belong to countless sects. If they were even as expert as I was that could not be the case. In no tafseer or translation these experts of yours give any method or rule whereby they prove their opinions they are offer to be valid. A clear sign that these people were not interested in proofs and proving but only to confused others as confuse they themselves were about the quran for the reasons only known to themselves.


You say, what is wrong in believing that respect is earned by doing the right thing? There is nothing wrong in accepting this idea but reality is very different out there. Going by reality out there all such values are useless because either people have no sense of them or that they think they cannot benefit through these values that is why they do not adopt them. The result is corruption is sky high throughout the world. The people in position of decision making are not based upon solid foundation and each is trying to get away with whatever they can. A clear contradiction in our mindsets, attitudes and behaviours. We teach kids to be fair and honest but set-up everything around them that only benefits those who are in advantageous position according to the way everything is set-up, so they take advantage of things at the expense of others which forces people to undercut each other and so all move down hill in to ditch of hell of their own making. Yet we expect world to be united and peaceful. If one party takes away livelihood of another then war is inevitable because that is how we act against the robbers and thieves. By setting up systems and structures that help some rob others we are creating a society that is its own worst enemy. This explains my point about the quran that either people are ignorant about the quranic way of life or that they do not want it because it interrupts their mindset, attitude and behaviour. There is a big difference between living for each other and living at the expense of each other. Each leads human population to its own end, in quranic terms to a blissful life or a life full of upheavals and turmoil. This answer the question you posed whether islam is responsible for what people are doing to each other.

If islam told people to be divided instead of united then islam will be to blame,if islam told people to be warmongers instead of being peaceful then islam will be to blame, if islam told people to be unjust and unfair to each other then islam will be to blame, if islam told people to hold each other back from progress and prosperity then islam will be to blame but we need to look at real world out there and see what people are doing to each other and why and who is behind all this and why? The quran stops people from injustice and unfairness, from oppression and suppression, cruelty and animosity instead it tells them to be just and fair, compassionate and united through brotherhood, peaceful, progressive and prosperous. As I explained already it does not let people get away with their wrong doings this is why those who inflict harm and destruction upon each must be stopped if not by mere words then actions which include going to war in order to save humanity from bigger harms and losses. This is how everything makes perfect sense when it is put together in a context.

If you want to throw harmful and destructive forces into gutter then it comes back to humanity itself because only human beings are active agents not ideologies or things. If people do not have things they will not be able to use them but will there is any people if things that are there were taken away? How will people express their ability to choose to do something or not to do it? This human ability to choose to act is the problem and it is not going to go away till we learn how to make right choices and act properly. This is why we all need cooperation of each other. This cooperation cannot come about unless we all agree on its foundation. This question is solved for us by the Quran and that is why it challenges humanity that no matter how long you live you can never find any system as good as the one proposed by the quran. So find out what is words SURAH about?The root is SEEN, WOW and RAA. This is why if we thrown away the quran then we will be left in utter darkness forever.



You said, "how can someone give credit to anyone if he/she does not prove his/her worth? Instead of Jesus , let us say a person X claims to be the messenger of God. Why should anyone trust Jesus or Muhammad and not X who also makes the same claim? Shouldn't there be something unique about a person making such claims? If Jesus performed miracles then it is obviously the right way to differentiate himself from other charlatans. Now whether he really performed miracles or not is a different issue."

The Quran disapproves idea of miracles because one can never prove anything by miracles. If you are interested we can discuss that. The quran states that only words can prove or disprove claims and explains how. It is very scientific in its approach to things. This is how the Quran proves itself true. It tells mankind to observe the universe and all that is in it and learn things from it because there in are many lessons for you to learn from. This is scientific method the quran is telling us about. It also tells us this is how you should live your lives and this is how you should not live your lives. The question is raised what will happen to us human beings if we did not do as the quran says? It says look at the end results of what people before you did. If they did what they were told to do, they ended up in a kind of life that they were told. On the other hand those who went against what they were told also got the outcome they were told. A very scientific approach to help people see things. Just as we observe and learn from biology or physics etc so we are turned into social scientists by the quran. This is not the science dr zakir naik teaches from the quran. It is real science. What is the point of quran in teaching us this way? So that by observing natural world we learn things and then come up with the next step that help us develop and prosper. The quran told us 1400 plus years back what we think is recent idea behind development of science.


You said,"People do run after money and glamor and they want to follow role models for the same. It seems that you do not like that but at the same time you have no problem when islam makes people run after personal desires. I mean if you believe in Allah you get the beautiful big breasted virgins, rivers of wine and honey, fruits etc etc. What is this if not personal gain? You want to follow Allah a role model just because you want worldly gains in the life hereafter? If you are going to be consistent in your reasoning then you should also reject Allah as a role model."

The quran does not forbid use of good things life offers,it forbid misuse of things. Mullahs have no sense about formation of laws the way the quran talks about it. Mullahs tell you this or that thing is forbidden. The quran tells you rules for your participation in human society and proper use of things. You can have certain things and you can use certain things but under certain conditions. Let me explain it for you. If I asked you is car haraam or halaal, what are you going to make of it? Absolutely nothing. However if I asked you, is it ok for me to have a car? Now the question makes sense because I am not talking about just a car but about having it. You will tell me whether I can legally own a car or not after finding out whether I fulfil conditions for that or not. The other question could be, is it ok for me to drive a car? Again the question makes sense and you can tell me the answer after finding out whether I meet the driving condition or not. Likewise when a muslims tells you something is haraam or halaal he is making a serious mistake because it is not things that are halaal or haraam but having or using them. This is why I know people claim to be muslims and claim to know the quran but in actual fact they do not. It is because they turned the quran in to a joke by their quranic expertise. You are bringing to me such people as authority on the quranic understanding. What can I say?


You said, "if people are going to read quran then the world will be in more danger than it was ever before. History is a strong proof of that. Millions of people have died because of islam so proofs are actually against you."

My question will be, were people not doing that already long before revelation of the quran? Look at history of wars between persion and roman empires. Let me tell you something more interesting. Do you know what word RAMADHAN means? What word SOWM means? What word SALAAH means and what word ZAKAAH means? RAMADHAN is from root RAA,MEEM and DWAD,SOWM is from root SWAD,WOW and MEEM, SALAAH is from root SWAD, LAAM and WOW or YAA, ZAKAAH is from root ZAA,KAAF and WOW or YAA. The quran was revealed during ramadhan and ramadhan means when people were at each other throat because things heated up between them ie thye were at war with each other. SOWM does not mean staying hungry and thirsty but stopping oneself from doing harm to others ie keep oneself from doing harm to others. So the purpose of revelation of the quran was to stop people from killing each other. SALAAH means network and communication or connection. When quran says establish SALAAH it means be in touch with message of ALLAH and thereby connect to each other as a proper human community that is caring and sharing. ZAKAAH means to free human community that is established from all obstacles that keep it from growth and prosperity. Word HAJJ is from root HAA, JEEM and JEEM,it means to argue, struggle or fight or be on the move or trail or journey or campaign etc. The quran is revealed so that world is rules by values told by Allah and hajj means to be on the march for creation of divine kingdom. Having all this in your mind tell me which mullahs you have come across who have interpreted the quran the way it should be interpreted? Do you know how many pages they have blackened for nothing much? Some tafaseer of mullahs are many volumes.I am talking about hundreds of volumes.

The quran condemns shirk yet mullahs teach muslims to worship personalities, graves and even kabah in makkah.



You said,"None is denying that mullahs are teaching nonsense. What everyone is claiming is that nonsense comes directly from the quran and ahadith. This is not due to our ignorance but due to our solid understanding of what islam teaches. We therefore want to eliminate the culprit and make the future better for the generations to follow."

I think I have said more than enough to show that generation were destroying each other before the scriptures and they will be doing the same even if we locked up all the holy books in a locker and thrown away the key. This can only and only be overcome through education based upon solid foundations. It is due to ignorance of scriptures that people have no foundation for their education to move them closer to each other to show to each other they are one and the same people and that they must take care of each other by sharing things and the work load.


You said," Quran is a recipe to disaster. It teaches hatred of unbelievers and terrorism amongst many other evil things..Therefore quran cannot be for mankind and it cannot be for me and this attitude is correct because we have already seen the damage that quran can do. WE can trace the actions of muslims back to the book."

"Ofcourse a book followed by billion and half deserve proper examination. I have never denied it. What I have denied is the conclusions that you draw after examining it. I see Quran has a cause of problems in the world while you see lack of adherence to quran as the cause of problems in the world."

"Finally I am surprised that most people have idea about what quran says apart from you. You seem to be totally disconnected and in a different world of delusion. Actions of muslims can be mapped to what quran and ahadith say. So if anyone does not have an idea about quran then it is you and not others."


My suggestion, please read what I have written even if you disagree because we all learn from each other, once you comment on my work after reading it that will be very helpful. It will help me see how you look at things and whether you are right or mistaken. I agree with you that if quran taught all that you claim it will be worthy of being thrown into the bin but as I explained that is not the case. I have been through 25 parts of it so far and each time it makes better sense than before.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 15, 2013 9:26 pm
by AhmedBahgat
What I am positive is the fact that Mughal from all humans did not understand the Quran

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:04 am
by piscohot
AhmedBahgat wrote:What I am positive is the fact that Mughal from all humans did not understand the Quran


join the club Bahgat, nobody does.

it's almost hilarious reading how each egoistic muslim man will claim that the other muslim do not truly understand the quran.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 16, 2013 2:32 am
by AhmedBahgat
Piss

Why you always dumb? Mughal is not Muslim you stupid