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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:12 am
by Mughal
Dear friends, my claim is not that I understand the quran perfectly but that I do understand the quran a lot better now than ever before. I think it is a book worth understanding. Talking nonsense about the quran does no harm to the book but it could do a lot more damage to humanity if it ignores something that it could benefit from.

People who claim to be muslims are in same situation as you are because they just like you are busy talking nonsense about the quran. There are not many people in the world who are really interested in the message of their creator and sustainer. In fact this is last thing and much more attention is needed by people on their own self awareness. Billions of people in the world are no better aware about themselves than animals. Such people cannot be expected to be masters of exploration of this universe all around. So it is clear that a huge number of human population has not yet learned enough to be able to understand the message of its creator and sustainer.

I too am trying to understand this message but I admit that it is not an easy thing to undertake. Not that message itself is necessarily difficult but because we humans are not used to education that is needed to understand it. If anything we have been misled in various ways by each other and that is why we have been doing things the way we have been and the world we have today did not become what it is without our participation in it.

This site is proof enough that we do not like the way the world is and it matters to us where we go from here. This is where study of the quran cannot be ignored any more and time as it passes on will keep on proving this if my study of the quran is anything to go by.

1400+ years ago the quran told us that all ways of life we humans will ever adopt will lead us only and only to hell save the one told about in the quran. Kaafirs have tried their luck and so called muslims have tried theirs but so far each day that comes round leads humanity more and more into troubles. The so called developed nations led world only in technology so far but world has been in moral decline for a very long time now. So long as people will keep on living the way they have been things will keep going more and more in the direction of moral decline.

By moral decline I do not mean mullaism or priesthood based definition but what people are doing to people throughout the world that is making our world hell. It shows very clearly that we are not managing human population and available resources properly. The bad old days are making a come back if we do not stop doing things the way we are doing them. We are living by laws of nature like other animals with very limited brains and senses and bodies when we are so different from them in our brain size, in our senses and body form. A very clear proof that Allah created mankind for some higher purpose than living like other animals. Other things including other animals have been created to facilitate human survival in various ways so that humans could fulfil their set divine purpose.The question is what is that purpose?

You can find that out by reading what I make of it from the quran. See if any other scripture comes close to the quran in that regard. If I were you I will pay attention to the explanation of the quran rather than nonsense dished out by people with vested interests.

http://www.jangforum.net/index.php?PHPS ... pic=5206.0


regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 8:00 am
by Mughal
ygalg wrote:
Mughal wrote:I have put before people an alternative interpretation of the quran

what is the miracle, where humanity understood the koran improperly which requires multiply interpretation?

on what authority you base this an alternative interpretation of the koran, to be the proper one? allah speaks to you? do you hear voices?


Dear ygalg, what is authority in any language? The text itself when it makes sense. The proof is people who study inscriptions in languages that nobody speaks today. They keep guessing letters and words and meanings and when it all comes together it proves itself that the work produced it absolutely correct.

What is the proof that you were talking sense when you were only a couple of years old? The proof is that your parents understood perfectly what you meant when you said something. Human experience and urge to keep learning leaves little out of human grasp at times.

Likewise there are clues within the quranic text that what mullahs have been telling about the quran to masses is false. If what mullahs tell is false then question arises what is true? By struggling to find out the truth one could solve some mysteries. I have attempted to do that and I can see that results are not bad.

Arabic the people speak today and the arabic that was spoken at the time of the quranic revelation are like differences phases of growth of a child. You spoke a language always that your parents understood properly at all times throughout till you became adult. The records of language used in the quran are still there as explained in various works throughout time. By referring to same works produced by mullahs you can find out alternative meanings of the words and the contexts because of concepts attached to those words and phrases. If you trace back works on the quran they were produced in time of imperialism by paid mullahs so that they change quranic concepts from a social contract between people to a religion in order to give kings legitimacy.

The quran does not allow one person to become ruler for another. According to the quran only and only Allah has the right to rule this world by virtue of being the creator and sustainer of this universe. All people are therefore bound together in a brotherhood not master slave relationship. This is clear enough clue to show that the quran has been deliberately misinterpreted by mullahs on behest of kings. Kings executed all those who spoke against this and the rest became quite. This is why people need to find out real history as to what happened to humanity and how it used name of its creator to use and abuse each other. The result is the world we have and this cannot be changed till mankind revisit divine message to see what it really taught them.

As I said before I myself am surprised at what I did not know before about the quran. I am glad that I know it now so for me it is matter of trying to put the record straight. I am not interested in forcing people to accept things because truth has its own way to get to those who genuinely are interested in it. My work may facilitate such people as works of others did for me.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 5:45 pm
by frankie
Mughal:

The only way humanity can understand the Quran properly is to look to the role model for Muslims,how did he put into action the words of the Quran, to enable Muslims to act out their faith correctly?

Because Mohammed was a false prophet he could only use what was familiar to him,and incorporate it all into a fake religion he named Islam.

And this is exactly what he did. Mohammed was brought up to worship pagan idols,i.e. his tribal moon god Hubal,represented as a black stone, a "gift from the gods" the greatest god(Al Ilah) and goddesses Al Lah,Al Manet and Al Uzza all already known to the pagan Arabs.He was used to praying and fasting in the prescribed times named Ramadan,in fact all the pre Islamic pagan rituals were just incorporated into Mohammeds new invention, you know as Islam.

Bukhari explains more:

Fasting on the 10th of Muharram

Muhammad's pagan tribe, the Quraish, fasted on the 10th of Muharram. Though optional, Muhammad retained this pagan practice too.
Narrated 'Aisha: 'Ashura' (i.e. the tenth of Muharram) was a day on which the tribe of Quraish used to fast in the pre-lslamic period of ignorance. The Prophet also used to fast on this day. So when he migrated to Medina, he fasted on it and ordered (the Muslims) to fast on it. When the fasting of Ramadan was enjoined, it became optional for the people to fast or not to fast on the day of Ashura.
Sahih Bukhari 5:58:172

Tawaf between Safa and Marwa

Doing Tawaf between Safa and Marwa is an Islamic ritual associated with the pilgrimage to Mecca. Safa and Marwa are two mounts, located at Mecca. This ritual entails Muslims walking frantically between the two mounts, seven times. This was originally a pagan pre-Islamic practice. Muhammad retained it for Islam, sanctioning it with yet another Qur'anic revelation.[7]
Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' Quran 2.158
Sahih Bukhari 2:26:710

As a Muslim you are duty bound to use Mohammed as your lifelong role model.

Islam and Mohammed are provable fakes, your own sources spell it out.

You are following the words and actions of a provable fake, which not only have pagan origins, but command you and your co religionists to kill in the name of this pagan entity, Allah.


Quran 9.111
God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur 'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme

Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to
forgive him.)"


How much more evidence do you need Mughal,to show what you call "the one true religion" is in reality just one big fat lie.

Give it up man, you are far more worthy as a human being, to fall for such nonsense.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 7:30 pm
by skynightblaze
@Mughal

Your posts are a torture to read. There is so much of garbage in them. Anyway here are a few questions for you..

1) In a span of 1400 years, how come none understood the true message of the quran apart from you? If only a single person could understand the true message of islam then what does it tell you about the clarity of the book? What does it say about the ability of the communicator?. It means Allah is poor at communication and hence an EPIC FAIL!

You would argue that the problem lies with the people and not the book because they misinterpret the message.This is obviously not true.Plenty of people apart from quran have taught us good teachings however their message were not distorted by people and their message reaches us today as it was delivered. So if people were always at fault then how come teachings of Buddha/Krishna and other saintly people reach us as they taught?

2) Allah being all knowing should know that his message would not be understood by people apart from a single person like you. Does it make sense to release such a book in this case? Let us say you are an author of an book and you know fully well in advance that your book is going to cause havoc (murder, rape, wife beating etc as we see in the muslim community) on earth because of misinterpretation . Would you go ahead and release such a book unless havoc is what you want?

3) What are your qualifications on arabic ? Your translations seem to radically differ from standard ones. You accuse others of mistranslating quran or not understanding quran. How can anyone be sure that you are not mistranslating the quran and presenting a fake version of quran here ? Please give us your qualifications here before you accuse renowned arabic experts for manipulation.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 11, 2013 10:55 pm
by Hombre
Mughal wrote:Dear friends, it is better if you people go through my work because it could help you see things in their proper context and perspective. After seeing what I have to say you can always come back and ask questions. Simply arguing for sake it is not proper way of discussing anything.

I have put before people an alternative interpretation of the quran just like people before. I know it will take time before it is understood and adopted by wider human community.

I cannot force anyone to see what I have done but as I said before, I still have more than a few parts to do so I better carry on. meanwhile good luck with your adventures.

http://archive.org/details/EnglishTranslationOfTheQuran


Mr Mughal,
much like other devout Muslims (and other religions), you are playing intellectual foot dancing with people who have read your Quran. Your attempted effort to put yourself in position of authority on this subject is ridiculous at best. Maybe in your Muslim community you are considered as such, where no one dares to challenge you - NOT HERE.

Maybe, you should be reminded that, many participants here - including Ali Sina who founded this blog, themselves are former Muslims. They DID read the Quran in its original Arabic language, and like you, they also were gullible enough to believe in the Quran as you do, until they started asking themselves critical questions about Islam in general, and Mohammad in particular.

I have been reading the Quran through authorized English translation. Almost entire suras and verses are dedicated to one objective - "obey Allah and his messenger, or else you will be punished" (most often by Mohammad himself). Yet, decent gentleman like you, come here and write your own interpretation on how Quran prods the believers to think for themselves, which is utterly not true.

When a book which prescribed to Muslim HOW to bath, and which hand to use to wipe their rear end, this book does NOT prod people to think for themselves - rather fallow a strict rule set out for them by an illiterate and a very cunning man.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 8:13 am
by Mughal
Dear frankie, the only way to understand the Quran is to use all sources at our disposal and see how the text fits within itself if at all surah by surah.

If we take surah 1 alfaatiha, it explains the quranic context to begin with.

Take each and every word apart and look for its meanings in detail in light of concepts attached to the roots of these words because roots are the basis in arabic language not words derived from them.

For example take the very first verse of the quran. What does it mean? It does not mean in the name of Allah the gracious, the merciful. However no translator of the quran explains its meanings in detail. Why not? because then it brings out a picture that some people do not want world to see.

Letter BAA is the first thing in this verse and it is used mainly as a preposition which is called HARF in arabic. What do people know about arabic prepositions used in the quran? You will see that no one is explaining the use of prepositions in arabic. In english when you write in, it means in but in arabic each preposition is used in place of another. BI is used in place of ALAA, FEE, ILAA, min etc. Likewise letter WOW does not mean just and, it also means or, although, therefore, for this reason, that is why, that is how, so that, behold, beware, be alert, be aware, but, however, nonetheless etc etc. In arabic conjunctions used in the quran work very differently than in english. Such things are not explained in translations by translators of the quran.

What it tells you is that in quranic arabic precision does not arise from use of each word but from the wider context in a word, phrase, clause, sentence, paragraph, chapter etc etc. This is why when people translate quran they leave out vital explanation about the way the quranic language itself works. Even people who teach arabic have little clue as to how things work in arabic language and even less how they work in the quran.

Perhaps it will be better for people to ask questions as to who wrote the first dictionary of arabic language and what gave that dictionary authority for future generations and when that dictionary was actually written and what was the purpose behind writing it for its writer or what purpose it served for rulers and masses etc?

Many people say the quran does not make sense but have those people asked the right questions so that they become aware of the language in which the quran is written? When people will do that things will begin to make sense as they discover more and more hidden facts about quranic language.

After all the quran was written once upon a time and it made sense to people at the time that is why its message spread but what happened later on? How did the quran became totally unknown to later generations? How did muhammad build islamic empire and how did it all came down? In all this we should look for logical, reasonable and plausible explanations. It is not plausible that anyone could build an empire by creating so many enemies not just outside one's dominion but even inside. moreover tyrants do not write books to create empires and not a book like the quran which condemns tyranny at every page. a book that begins with a very special verse. a tyrant does not want his ruler a merciful god because that way one contradicts oneself right from the start. God of a tyrant has to be a tyrant god if you like for role model. the idea of merciful god and tyranny do not go together.

The origin of differences in languages can be traced back to two things a)movement of people for livelihood from place to place which caused separation between people as tribes. as they distanced themselves from each other over a period of time the communication between them ended and each people that separated ended up developing themselves and therefore their languages independent of each other. b)when there are problems between people and one group does not want other to know what it is talking about then they invent secret languages that are only known within the circle and not to outsiders.

Was arabic a naturally developed language or was it a secret language when it came about? Was it a secret language but later became like any other language that developed naturally? Was it language of masses or was it language of rulers or both? Why arabic was developed as a language and how was it developed? Is there any literature from before the time of the quran or was the quran the very first book that arabs came up with?

If the quran is the only arabic literature of its time then how can we use any other later literature to help us understand the text of the quran? Also what can help us understand the later literature which we want to use to understand the quran? It is because languages became more and more precise in their use as time went by. Today we do not talk much about proverbials in our languages but once upon a time they were very common. If we read old literature people seemed more respectful to each other when addressing each other but now we are getting more and more used to talking to the point. Beating around the bush is gradually disappearing in daily use and so is flowery and flattery talk. However it is still necessary for us to know how it all worked in its own time otherwise we not be able to understand things. setting and plot are therefore important things for understanding the situations, mindsets, attitudes and behaviours etc etc.

If we today translate the quranic verses where Allah tells people to give loans to Allah where are we going to find Allah to give him loans in person? Did those people find Allah somewhere and then gave him the loans? So interpretation of the quran cannot be carried out by anyone who has little or no interests in knowing things related to the quranic language. Islamic state is an empire because its sovereign is Allah the creator and sustainer of all things but how does Allah rule it?

So one can see that mere word for word translation makes no sense till the idea behind the message is conveyed. The time when the quran was written people understood such things without problems but later when concepts became muddled up for some reason things began to fall apart.

The quranic god is neither merciful nor tyrant but a being who uses his capabilities appropriately as it suits his purpose for creation. If one has read the quran it repeatedly tell us that Allah did not create universe for no reason and he also repeatedly tells us that he created it for a set purpose and explains that purpose in great detail. Yet people hardly have clue what that purpose is and how the universe and creation of human beings fulfils that purpose.

So the study of the quran is highly sophisticated thing not a task that could be undertaken by children or childish people. Why that is the case? It is because unless human beings become learned to that degree all by themselves they cannot serve the purpose for which Allah created them. Allah is trying to prove something and that is, he is a great creator. The only way to prove this point is by his creation of such a creature that is very much reflection of himself a highly intelligent creature. This creature has been given great mind, senses and body to fulfil divine purpose. So human beings have been created with huge potential that we have not yet realised.

When the quran tells us it is guidance for humanity it does not mean that it takes us by hand and takes us along through all thin and thick because if God did everything for making a human being great then what is part of man in it? It will be like us creating a robot that is fully programmed having no capacity to learn and do things itself. Only if we create a self programming robot which then fulfils a great task we set for it all through self realisation then it matters. This is why the quran calls human achievements great success because people achieve those things by their own effort from learning to doing things.

Nature has brought man night and man has come up with idea of inventing a lamp. Nature has brought hot and cold weather and man has come up with heaters and air conditioners. So whatever Allah has created man has yet to show what he can do about it and with it all by himself. This is the reason man is called a special creature of God.He is very different from all other animals.

The quran keeps telling us the universe is full of lessons for mankind to observe things and learn from and do things that show man is above all other animals despite rising from same family tree of life.

It is therefore not possible for anyone to understand the quran unless one is looking up high and trying to improve himself by knowing and doing things. The quran has little to do with what people think it is about. It is a book that has yet to open up for humanity and that will only happen when man has raised himself to the level required for proper understanding of the quran. People can only understand it as much as they have learned to do so. It is not a detailed text book from birth till death but a book full of clues to point us further ahead when we have reached a given milestone. In other words it will keep directing us till we reach the stage when purpose of our journey is fulfilled. That is the time when man will be pleased with his discoveries and creativity and God with his creature for reaching the milestone for which he has created him.

He did not create man to keep banging his head on the floor and waving his behind in the air thinking he is doing something great for god. This is why it is very important to understand the quran and see where it leads mankind.

It is just waste of time to lock-heads with mullahs because they are a useless people and so are those who waste their time in trying to counter them with nonsense arguments. If anything people should educate themselves and others about creation and revelation.

The bottom line is where you stand when it comes to humanity? If you think human beings are just animals nothing more then you are right about yourself but if you think there is more to human life than meets the eye then it is only right that you find out what that might be.

You will not get it in atheism or religion because they are both useless but do study science and scriptures and you will get another way to look at things than you have been so far.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:30 am
by pr126

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 9:41 am
by Mughal
Dear hombre, there is no authority in anything other than the word that proves true when it is put to the test. If you say you have invented a thing called bike and you show how it works then that is proof that you have spoken the truth.

Likewise the quran gives mankind an idea how they should live and if that idea seems to works the way it is explained in the quran then it is true.

This is why God explains things rather than using stick. So if people are educated enough then they should not have problem in understanding things.

The quran very clearly explains that if people will live the way they are told then end result will be blissful and dignified life but if they will leave that base then no matter what way of life they adopt it will sooner or later will prove disastrous for them. This is why it brings stories of past nations as examples of right or wrong ways of living.

The main thing is that one way of life is based upon personal gains at the expense of human community spirit and the other is based upon community gains.

Then we are told the result of personal gain based way of life is always destructive and stories are told to support that claim and we are told to look out for those signs and retrace your steps before it is too late. We know that if we live as rivals and enemies then end result is nothing less than hatred and wars.therefore the quran is right. If we will try to dominate each other by undermining each other then you can imagine where we both are going to end up. Surely not in peace and prosperous. But if that is the way of life we have chosen for ourselves then we must also be ready to face the consequences for that.

On the other hand if we live as a brotherhood instead then working hard for betterment of each other cannot lead us to any other end result than peace and prosperity. This way we do not need to waste our time and energy in trying to look behind our backs and always worried about next moment due to posing a danger to each other. Not only that we have no more fear of destroying what we each built. So progress becomes fast and easy. You help me build my house and I help you build your house instead of you come and destroy whatever I build and I do the same to whatever you build. So where is sense in living our lives this way?

This is why when we open our eyes in this world it is natural world out there and if we do not like the way our ancestors have been living due to their ignorance we should change things for the better instead of keeping same stupidities alive. What is the excuse for us in using natural world as our role model we can see that we can do things better because we have learned thanks to our provided brains, senses and bodies.

This is why future social, political,economic, cultural and religious structures, systems, mechanism, procedures and practices cannot be same as they are today or we will keep on limiting our unity, peace, progress and prosperity very much as we have done in the past. This is why the quran tells us there is many folds reward for mankind if they will live the way they are advised. It is because from then on no manpower will be allowed to go to waste as it is done today.

Is it easy to motivate people? No because if it was then we will not have lazy people in the world whop sit idle and do not wish to do anything so they are a burden on human society. Likewise when we compete against each other we demotivate so many motivated people who wish to do something for themselves and others. So we have a lot of crazy people who want to live by this idea. This also puts a serious burden on humanity. The result is a very unhappy world out there from one end of the world to the other. This is why no way of life humanity has come up with so far can solve human problems because each of these ideas has created problems. Those who try to defend these ways of life are very few who have huge advantage over the rest and that is their reason for defending such ideologies.

However time is fast approaching when things will get out of control because hungry and thirsty masses are not going to wait for long in false hope that things will get better just because rich and powerful will throw some crumbs their way life dogs. Human dignity suffers greatly when people try to undermine each other instead of uplifting each other.

These are the real world realities the quran talks about in order to help mankind educate themselves and solve their differences on bases provided by the quran. This is why rule by Allah is inevitable in the world because it is the only thing that can give humanity its blissful life with dignity provided people understand the message properly and follow the program faithfully as told.

As I have explained already I am busy with interpretation of the quran and it is going to take some time yet before I am able to say anything comprehensively and conclusively. So far I see little problem within the quranic text. I do not claim to understand the quran 100% but one should be able to see the difference my understanding of the quran is going to make. I think the quran is a great book for humanity if people could spend some time to study it by themselves instead of looking to mullahs and their opponents. They are just time wasters who lead us away from actual thing and the main issue.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 11:40 am
by frankie
Mughal:

Your responses to fellow FF posters reveals the damage Islam does to a persons rational thinking.

As skynightblaze rightly points out, IF the Quran was from a divine source, and IF the Quran is right when it says it "comes with clear signs "then it has failed miserably to convey its message to humanity, because it needs the likes of you to translate it.

If you are sincere in wanting to make the world a better place for human kind, then anything Islamic is not the way to do it.

Islam is a retrograde force, it puts Muslims at continuous war with Non Muslims, until such time "Islam is proclaimed over all religion" Quran 9.33

The Quran tells Muslims repeatedly to "fight those who do not believe in Allah"....9.29

Your time would be far better employed seeking a far more conciliatory message to humanity, and living by it.

The words and actions of Jesus contribute far more to a peaceful co existence between humans. He tells people to "love one another, as I have loved you"

Which message do you find more conducive to peace in the world, to fight or to love?

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 5:12 pm
by Mughal
Dear frankie, according to quran world is set up in a certain way to work. It is natural that matter behaves in a certain way as certain things eg as inanimate things, as plants and trees, as animals and insects and as people. Things work to a certain extent naturally in their natural state but they work in a different way when acting agents are involved and then when active agents have freedom to act things become unpredictable because then it is not just matter of cause and effect but cause, thought and response. For example, if you put a piece of paper in fire it will burn, however it is up to you to put paper in fire or not. If you choose not to put paper in fire then paper will not burn. Likewise if people choose to live one way they are told they will be safe but if they decide to live another way then they are told they will no longer be safe. The extent of danger posed by people depends upon how bad they behave. How much you want the paper to burn in fire is your choice.

The quran tells mankind to set up their human society a certain way so that human population and resources are managed properly for the benefit of mankind by people themselves. The world according to quran is supposed to be managed by humans themselves to a great extent instead of God. In other words God has chosen to set up the world in a way wherein all existing things have been assigned the roles to play just like in a movie. If all actors play their parts as programmed or for freewill things as guided then things will go in a certain direction but if freewill creatures make choices that take the world in a different direction then mechanism are set in the world that forces will come into play to not to let things go in any direction beyond a point.

Now if people instead of doing things the way they are told for their own safety and security then they will get into trouble with natural world as well as each other. Since people could go wrong by making wrong choices and doing wrong things therefore God ought to guide people back to where they ought to be. This important point to understand is that world is left at the mercy of humanity itself that when it goes wrong it must correct itself through mutual interaction. This being the case God tells us very clearly in the quran that people must keep each other in check. This involves carrot and stick but when people should use carrot and when they should use stick is up to people but they have been advised in the quran for this purpose and told not to go overboard in either case because using too much carrot or too much stick will not work nor will it work when it is used at wrong time and place. However humans are created as intelligent beings so they are expected to learn to do things right by keep trying to get things right. So long as they will not learn and do things they will not be free of troubles because they have not been created to sit idle and God will do things for them. This is where scriptures and mullahs go their own different ways. Mullahs want us to believe nonsense and scriptures want to us to become educated and follow evidence. Mullahs want us to give up reason and have blind faith in make beliefs or senseless dogmas. This gives rulers, money lenders and mullahs control over rest of masses. The scripture tells that each human being is equally important in sight of God and that people must not think about each other in ways that are below human dignity because then it reflect bad on God himself. He takes pride in creating human beings because this is his ultimate creature yet by going so low that even animal behaviour looks much better is not the way human beings should be.

This is the difference between my understanding of the quranic text and anyone else's understanding of the quranic text. Allah allows limited wars between people and that is only for the purpose of putting things right, not making things worse. As I have already explained that quran sets basic goal for mankind and that is unity and peace so that mankind progress and prosper as a proper human community that is caring and sharing. Not a bunch of greedy monsters looking for opportunities to rape and kill each other and treat each other the worst possible way. So whatever people do to each other has nothing at all to do with quranic teachings or for that matter with any teaching of any scripture. It is the way we are educating each other that is the problem in the name of scriptures and God and whatever. We are keep generating useless minds through useless education and blaming God for all this because we want to escape our self responsibilities towards each other.

This is why I see the quranic teaching far ahead of us. As I said many times before the quran is not holy book of religion but a special book that none can challenge after really understanding it. The explanations given in the quran about things make perfect sense when understood in their given context instead of trying to turn quran into a dogmatic crap that has no basis in the quran. If anything the quran challenges priesthood,ruling elite and money lenders. In order to make message of the quran ineffective these people fund mosques and mullahs and others but it is not possible to do so without serious consequences for humanity itself. The more people promote religion and secularism the more problematic the world is becoming because you cannot put world right through advancement in technology alone you need solid moral foundation as well. By misrepresenting scriptures humanity is digging its own grave if you like. This is why if people do not wake up to reality the quran calls to then things are yet to get worse. People cannot fight against the quranic message for long because it is not possible to do so and live in peace and happy ever after. The more baseless world becomes the more troublesome it will become because none of us then will have any moral justification for anything any more. It will be each for himself and that is how law of jungle will destroy us if we do not pull back from the dangerous roads that we have taken.

The quran is a real book for real world and not a book that teaches imaginary nonsense nor do other scriptures if we care to examine them as explained. All scriptures have been misrepresented by priests and it can be proven from those scriptures themselves. Death of jesus on the cross for our sins is all nonsense invented by priests. Jesus came to teach people how to put things right if they wish to do so. The same is true about moses or krishna of bhagwat geeta. All scriptures provided humanity social basis but because it did not suit the few powerful people in humanity so those devils did what they could and so they plunged world into darkness of religion and by taking control of world themselves through inventing tricks to fool simple minded people.

All this will come to light as time goes on. The magic and miracles that have been invented to fool people will also become exposed. God never sent any miracles or magic as priesthood has been spreading instead God sent scriptures to teach people how to be good human beings. That is the real miracle which we have ignored.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Nov 12, 2013 10:28 pm
by manfred
Mughal , stop waffling, just answer a straight forward question:

Suppose all of humanity have misunderstood the quran, apart from you, as you claim, then WHOSE FAULT IS THAT?

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 3:21 am
by Hombre
Mr. Mughal.
You know my good man, you sound like a Sufi ,or Ahmadi Muslim (please correct me if I am wrong) - not a Sunni or worse, a Salafi one.
I have not only read the Hebrew Bible in its original Hebrew & Aramaic language - also studied it in high school. The same book, which Muslims dismiss as "fake" - yet most of the stories about "previous prophets", cited in your holy Quran, were copied, or plagiarized from this book. Now ,(out of intellectual curiosity) I am reading an authorized translation of the Quran, published by Oxford University.

The Quran, not only misinterpreters the story of Jewish prophets (Abraham, Noah, Moses, Joseph, etc) - it butchers it outright. Please, do yourself a favor, read about these prophets and Jesus from their ORIGINAL Sources, the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament - not the second (Quran) one.

Here are the main thesis of the Quran: (as I read it).
a. Allah owns everything in the universe.
b. Allah knows everything. Our innermost private thoughts, and hears our conversation even those made in private.
c. Since Mohammad is Allah's messenger - it is natural, Allah tells Mohammad everything he / she hears, or sees. Therefore, Obey Mohammad to the letter, because he knows your most innermost thoughts and emotional feeling - before even you utter them out. (it can't get any better then that)
d. Mohammad never tells lies, and he immuned from any rational criticism - nor does he need to prove anything to anyone.
e. If you don't obey Allah (Mohammad) - harm will be done to you. Most often, by Mohammad's own thugs who followrd him blindly

A perfect set up for self sustaining, and perpetuated Cult personality - lasting for more then 1400 years to this day.

After reading Mohammad's biography, during which - as merchant, he interacted with Jews & Christians, where he learned about their religions, before all those revelation at the age 40. (there is not indications, none whatsoever that, before that, he engaged in any religious activities).

The logical conclusion lead to one, and only one direction - Prophet Mohammad did get his "Revelations" alright - not from Allah, rather from Jews and Christians, who were practicing their religion at peace, and innocently were happy to share with him the tenets of Judea & Christianity. A bad mistake which cost their lives.

I join with other posters here and urge you to use your common sense and basic logic - nothing else

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:08 am
by Mughal
manfred wrote:Mughal , stop waffling, just answer a straight forward question:

Suppose all of humanity have misunderstood the quran, apart from you, as you claim, then WHOSE FAULT IS THAT?


Dear manfred, we are humans and God created us for his purpose and he created everything to serve that purpose. What I am suggesting is that we need to find out for ourselves what that purpose is. Unless we keep reading scriptures and looking for that purpose in them in light of rest of realities we cannot take any interpretation of any scripture as true. Finding out this purpose is so important because it then gives us context to look at things properly and once we have understood that purpose and what is happening all around us should fit together neatly. This will then prove that we have understood the scriptures and the universe properly. So long as we come up with nonsense ideas we cannot explains things the way they actually are.

Take for example the muslim stand as proposed by mullahs. They tell us that Allah created us for testing us and this world is therefore a testing ground and at the end people will be rewarded with paradise or punished in hell.

Take the other example of christians as proposed by their mullahs, God so loved the world that he sent his only begotten son to die for sins of people. So the purpose of creation of world according to christian is God want to show how much he loved mankind.

hindu mullahs tell us that God himself took on the form of creation and set up the play. soul is separated from God and wants to go back to him and so it keeps taking on new life through recycling till it is good enough to join back with god.

In all this there is no connection to real world realities just imaginary nonsense make beliefs and there we have religions and all those rituals that make religious people holy people.

Keeping all this nonsense before you give a good thought to what I am putting forth and see which fits more with reality than all nonsense of mullahs. if my proposed ideas make better sense then accept them otherwise throw them out of the window and try and come up with your own ideas that explain things best in light of scriptural texts. make beliefs are surely not the right answer no matter who proposes them. It defeats the very purpose of having the brains we have and the senses and body forms that go with it and the wider universal realities. I am challenging the very foundation of religious nonsense and proposing that religions were actually invented and modified by rulers, priests and money lenders to fool masses to use and abuse them by giving them imaginary lolly pops. God gave humanity scriptures and brains to make sense of them in light of their life experiences not to follow each other blindly like sheep. This is why almost all of us have been given brains as individuals and blind following is therefore condemned in the quran repeatedly. it repeatedly tells us people must not follow anyone blindly particular their ancestors. Instead people should use their own brains and senses properly in light of their own self awareness, and in light of awareness of universal realities and the scriptures sent by God. Allah does not tell us to believe in the quran blindly and forget everything else. The scriptures are brought in last, the first is self evident world all around us. Through observed realities and reasoning the quran proves to mankind its truth. It does not rely on blind faith the mullahs propose.

The purpose of creation according to the quranic text is very different from what mullahs have been telling us. God did not create mankind to test them. He created them to go through struggle and fulfil divine purpose and that purpose is appreciation of God as a great creator by way of becoming a creator oneself. Any people who have no creative mind cannot appreciate creative work of God. So this whole things rest upon learning and doing things that lead us on that path till we have raised our self awareness and awareness of universal realities and finally we come to realise who our creator is and how capable that creator is. If we at the end of the day prove useless then that will mean our creator is also a useless entity. God is telling us human beings are his ultimate masterpiece and human being are to prove to themselves that their creator is truly master of what he has done. How are they going to prove that? By using their heads and bodies they have been given with help of provided things in this world by putting them together in such a way that makes them copy God as mini gods in their own right. Man is not created as a weakling or cry baby. He is given grand abilities which he needs to keep on discovering for himself as time goes on. This involves a lot of exploration of the heavens and the earth and so a lot of research work has yet to be undertaken. All this is also visible even through wrong translations of the quran and that is why I am translating the quran to make the message a bit more obvious and bringing together the stated fact in order to show the context as it makes sense to me.

Can you imagine a book telling you don't follow the way of your parents unless their way proves to be correct for your good future. So good parents should ensure that future of their children is good and those who ruin their own future cannot be good parents according to the quran. The parents are not only your birth parents but wider community and its leadership at whose feet lies paradise or blissful and dignified life known as ummah.

Therefore people who destroy future of humanity are not to be followed is the message of the quran. The people who shut their minds cannot be called followers of the quran in light of the quran.

Coming to your question whose fault it is if we do not understand the quranic message, it is fault of humanity itself which has not been learning things at the rate it was supposed to and it is suffering the consequences of its own inaction and at times wrong actions. God created things and gave mankind his guidance and left them to do as they see fit. Man has had bad experiences but gradually he is moving in the right direction and as time goes on we are going to learn more and more for the good of ourselves. As we improve our learning and doing things, things will get better and better till we get almost everything right. It is like trying to open a combination lock after forgetting which number it was set for. One day we will get the right combination and get the door open.

Since we are born we go through a lot to get where we are. How many times we fall and hurt ourselves before we are able to walk? How many times we try to talk properly before we master it? How many times we try to catch a ball and fail before we are able to do so? this is not sin or fault of anyone but part of growing up. Likewise we will keep on making efforts in learning things till we get it right. When we get it right then this world will become a blissful place because then we will come to know how to do it. You see knowing things is one thing but being able to do things is quite another. You know you should catch a ball but can you actually do it? It takes time for learning things as ideas and then being able to use our bodies to get things done. I know how to build a nice house but can I use my body to make it a reality? Can I lay bricks properly, do plastering, plumbing, joinery etc etc. Knowing how to draw a picture is one thing and doing it is another. It is like I know how to cook nicely but am I prepared to get out of my bed to actually do it? So having knowledge about things is only a part of what needs to be done. Things are only done when we get up and do them.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 7:52 am
by Mughal
Hombre wrote:Mr. Mughal.
You know my good man, you sound like a Sufi ,or Ahmadi Muslim (please correct me if I am wrong) - not a Sunni or worse, a Salafi one.
I have not only read the Hebrew Bible in its original Hebrew & Aramaic language - also studied it in high school. The same book, which Muslims dismiss as "fake" - yet most of the stories about "previous prophets", cited in your holy Quran, were copied, or plagiarized from this book. Now ,(out of intellectual curiosity) I am reading an authorized translation of the Quran, published by Oxford University.

The Quran, not only misinterpreters the story of Jewish prophets (Abraham, Noah, Moses, Joseph, etc) - it butchers it outright. Please, do yourself a favor, read about these prophets and Jesus from their ORIGINAL Sources, the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament - not the second (Quran) one.

Here are the main thesis of the Quran: (as I read it).
a. Allah owns everything in the universe.
b. Allah knows everything. Our innermost private thoughts, and hears our conversation even those made in private.
c. Since Mohammad is Allah's messenger - it is natural, Allah tells Mohammad everything he / she hears, or sees. Therefore, Obey Mohammad to the letter, because he knows your most innermost thoughts and emotional feeling - before even you utter them out. (it can't get any better then that)
d. Mohammad never tells lies, and he immuned from any rational criticism - nor does he need to prove anything to anyone.
e. If you don't obey Allah (Mohammad) - harm will be done to you. Most often, by Mohammad's own thugs who followrd him blindly

A perfect set up for self sustaining, and perpetuated Cult personality - lasting for more then 1400 years to this day.

After reading Mohammad's biography, during which - as merchant, he interacted with Jews & Christians, where he learned about their religions, before all those revelation at the age 40. (there is not indications, none whatsoever that, before that, he engaged in any religious activities).

The logical conclusion lead to one, and only one direction - Prophet Mohammad did get his "Revelations" alright - not from Allah, rather from Jews and Christians, who were practicing their religion at peace, and innocently were happy to share with him the tenets of Judea & Christianity. A bad mistake which cost their lives.

I join with other posters here and urge you to use your common sense and basic logic - nothing else


Dear humbre, there is no such things as authorised translation of the quran, Each translation of the quran has problems in it because these are human works trying to express divine thought. However the quran is very different from any other scripture in a lot of ways but the ideas that matter are very similar which have been masked by priests with their nonsense.

The stories are not objective of the quran but the context in which they are told. If people do not try to realise the purpose of creation from the quran then whatever they say is nonsense because it has no valid context.

If I say 5, what sense it makes to you? None. Why not? Because it has no context which could show its purpose and therefore it could make sense to you. This is how we can very easily prove that mullahs talk nonsense about the scriptures because they have no valid context for scriptures to begin with. Only when anyone has a context that makes sense we can trust that that person is telling us the truth because what he explains make sense in light of realities that surround us. So knowing a language is not everything because only sensible things make sense no matter which the language.

If you are from jewish background then study the torah in that context and see what you get. Explain that and if it makes sense all sensible people will be forced by convincing reason to accept it. If it is senseless then no sensible person will accept it and make belief accepting people accept just anything regardless sensible or senseless because they do not use their brains or do not learn how to use their brains.

Priests have ruined humanity by giving them sense of security through make beliefs. It worked because most people are lazy or crazy they want everything without doing anything. We want everything for nothing so instead of making effort to find out people accept whatever they are told by others because they are looking for excuses to escape responsibilities to themselves and others. Priest rob people by giving them escape routes that is why they empty their pockets to them willingly even those who hardly have much to live on. Watch videos on youtube about holy babas or peers exposed and james randy's work. How far people can go to fool each other in the name of faith healers and miracle workers and magicians and many other superstitions. Not only that but look at how media is making fool of people and how media is used by people to do that to others. Social manipulation, political manipulation, economic manipulation, cultural manipulation and religious manipulation and exploitation. There are so many different forces at it this is why we need to find out solid ground and as soon as possible to put an end to all this carry on and thereby save ourselves and future generations.

I am a bit busy at what I am doing so I cannot get involved in discussion but hopefully when I have completed this work and go over it to see what i have got myself into I will be in a better position to discuss things perhaps in a bit of more detail.

Meanwhile regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 8:53 am
by Mughal
piscohot wrote:4:23 Prohibited to you [for marriage] are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your [milk] mothers who nursed you, your sisters through nursing, your wives' mothers, and your step-daughters under your guardianship [born] of your wives unto whom you have gone in. But if you have not gone in unto them, there is no sin upon you. And [also prohibited are] the wives of your sons who are from your [own] loins, and that you take [in marriage] two sisters simultaneously, except for what has already occurred. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.

Mughal's translation of same verse:

4:23 It is therefore unlawful for you as communities and administrations to enter into agreements with other communities and administrations where agreements are already in place in order to undercut and unduly exploit each other such as your mother communities and administrations, your daughter communities and administrations, your sister communities and administrations, your paternal parental sister communities and administrations, your maternal parental sister communities and administrations, your brother communities and administrations’ daughter communities and administrations, your sister communities and administrations’ daughter communities and administrations, your foster mother communities and administrations, your foster sister communities and administrations, your partner communities and administrations’ mother communities and administrations, your step daughter communities and administrations provided you entered in contract with their mother communities and administrations already but if you have not entered in to contract with them already then there is no harm in it for you. Moreover it is lawful for you to enter in contract with your own community administrators who are backbone of your community that is how you should bring any two communities under the same main administration instead of continuing what went on before. Surely Allah is protector of people through blissful revelation.

:???:

I think even Allah is confused by the above translation.

eg. - so it would be lawful for me as a community and administration to enter into agreement with my sister's communities and administration as long as i have entered into contract with her mother's communities and administrations?

Mughal, i have no idea what i am talking about. :lol:

you do? ... really?


Dear piscohot, words do not have any meanings but root concepts in arabic language. Take word KITAAB, what does it mean? It is from root KAAF, TAA and BAA. The concept attached to this root is that of drawing a line. The explanations as to what drawing a line means in various contexts can fill pages. I can say, here is the line you cannot cross. This could be in context of me and you being neighbours having our own houses and drawing a boundary line. It could be me setting a line for you that if you crossed there is going to be fight. It could be that a line is drawn to show right and wrong in a social contract as basis of our society. Can you therefore see why I translate word kitaab as program, constitution and law? It is because the purpose the quran claims for its revelation is to provide humanity with a program, with a constitution and with a set of commandments as guidelines for formation of laws.

Because most of us use language unconsciously we do not realise what words actually mean in various contexts. It is a bit like driving a car that when you are learning to drive you know what you are doing and why but once the skill has been learned then later driving is automatic if you like. Likewise our use of language is automatic till we have to deal with problems and then we look for ways to understand things consciously.

Dictionaries are no authority over use of language but they are helpful in some ways. For example if I write a dictionary today, I can only put in words in it that I know. What about words that I do not know? What about the sense of use of words that I never came across? Also not everyone uses words as I think, some use it the way have I no clue. So there are no standards in this respect nor there can be save the fact that if what you say works or makes sense in some way then it is acceptable.

This is how when we go in deeper and wider study of languages we become more aware of problems the language itself faces. My saying that other translation are wrong not because the words do not mean what they claim but that the context that they promote does not arise out of the text they are trying to explain so their translations do not serve their claim purposes. My claim for correctness of my translation is not because I am the authority but because my explanation of the very same text brings out the proper purpose of the book. It is the best explanation which gives legitimacy to what say. The proof of the pudding is in the eating if you like because what works is right. Not that it is right because I or someone else says so.

As you yourself are aware that words used for human relationships not only mean those relationships but also have other uses as well. Take word mother for example. Think about how we use word mother. Is it always used for mothers of people who gave them birth? Was any word ever confined to a particular use only? Was word father used only for father of a person? You can do same for all the words and you will see that it is context that decides meanings of words because concepts attached words have various explanations which can fill pages. What makes a text legitimate is its context and the context is only legitimate because it serve a purpose. If I say word GOD, it means nothing at all till a concept is attached to it which gives it meanings and when those meanings are explained they fill pages. So word=concept=explanations=context=purpose.

I am busy with quranic interpretation just now so I do not have time to go into nitty gritty of things but once I have completed my work on quran then more valid explanations for my stance on quran will become clear. The same will happen to books of hadith if i get the time to show that like quran hadith books also have been manipulated by mullahs. This does not mean every hadith will prove authentic but that many wrong translations will become exposed and right concepts will become obvious. This is what any person needs to do who claims to stand for finding out the truth about scriptures. We all know words have many meanings and many words have same meanings particularly in arabic. People have no idea on works already done on arabic language itself by experts. So if one translation of a text is wrong then another could be right right. However must keep in mind that during imperial reign in muslim kingdoms and later dictatorships scriptures have been manipulated to suit rulers by keeping masses ignorant and spreading falsehood in the name of islam. This is what people here are criticising not the scriptures because they are unable to read them for themselves just like ignorant muslim masses.

So hopefully people will realise this and do their bit to expose the truth to the world instead of remaining confused and confusing others as usual.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:05 am
by manfred
Coming to your question whose fault it is if we do not understand the quranic message, it is fault of humanity itself which has not been learning things at the rate it was supposed to and it is suffering the consequences of its own inaction and at times wrong actions.


Any ordinary human classroom teacher adjusts his/her teaching according to the progress made by the class. That is one of the main points of having assessment for learning. If one method does not work another must be tried. A simpler approach, a different lesson plan, a new strategy.

So you are telling us that Allah is a lousy teacher who either cannot or does not want to take account of his subjects' ability and progress in order to adjust his teaching. How odd...

Allah would miserably fail initial teacher training. No school, however desperate, would give him a job. In fact you are saying Allah is the worst ever teacher. How do you recognise a bad teacher? It is a very common feature of a lousy teacher to blame the students. The students are what they are. A good woodcarver can take almost any piece of wood and make something beautiful or useful. A bad woodcarver blames the wood or the tools he has.

So, Allah is a rotten teacher, according to you. How interesting.

Not only that, it took 1400 years of inadequate guidance and rotten teaching to produce you, the new Islamic messiah? Why would Allah wait so long to correct his poor teaching? Did he not care about all the people living in all that time?

Exactly how stupid do you think people are?


And people are created for jihad (struggle), you say? That is nothing new. Most of the mullahs you complain about would not argue that point.

When I was I kid my father took it upon himself to "teach me swimming". I was four. He took me to a pool and threw me in at the deep end and watched me struggling in a blind panic until I reached the stairs coughing up water, terrified and crying. When I climbed out, without a word, he picked me up and threw me in again, as far as he could.

I could not go near a swimming pool for years, but I learnt how to swim in my twenties, in a more conventional way.

Is this the kind of thing the Quran says Allah created man for? Allah has a kind of sadistic pleasure in seeing people suffer?

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 9:54 am
by sum
Hello Mughal

Your quote -
If I say 5, what sense it makes to you? None. Why not? Because it has no context which could show its purpose and therefore it could make sense to you.

Are the ahadith context for the Koran where Muhammad`s words and deeds are explanations of the Koranic text?

Did Muhammad truly, and without exception, fully understand the meaning of the Koran and act accordingly?

sum

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 10:50 am
by pr126
Mughal,

if the Quran can be only understood properly in ancient Arabic, and even then, only by a very few "gifted people" such as yourself, then obviously it was not meant for all mankind.

It is then solely an Arab "religion", forced upon the rest of the world by the sword and deception.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 11:41 am
by frankie
People cannot fight against the quranic message for long because it is not possible to do so and live in peace and happy ever after.


Mughal:

I see verses in the Quran that tell Muslims to fight and kill in Allah's cause, if I am wrong in taking such verses literally, how should I read these verses in the way that Allah wants me to understand?

"fight those who do not believe in Allah..." 9.29
and
"Allah has purchased of the believers their persons and their goods, theirs in return is the garden of paradise, they fight in his cause, and kill and are killed....... 9.111

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 13, 2013 2:16 pm
by Mughal
Dear manfred, stop and think before writing down. Allah has created man capable of self learning so he does not necessarily need a teacher. It is because other things that are created have been programmed to a greater extent and man can observe them and learn from that observation. This is what is stated in the quran repeatedly. On top of this Allah himself had sent for man some guidance to help him along here and there.

Now if you decide to stay at home instead of going to school, what has that got to do with Allah, especially when you have been created with ability to make your own choice?

The quran is not impossible to understand but that if people ignore studying it then it is their own loss. You cannot blame anyone else for your own actions based upon your own choices.

Blame will only come to Allah if he did not provide people with necessities and asked them to do the impossible. Your mindset, attitude and behaviour is based upon choices made by you or people you have been involved with eg parents and wider circle of relatives and society. Any good that comes out of it is to your credit and of those who played any part in it but anything you do wrong is also your fault and fault of those who raised you that way or had any input in that.

Man has been created with ability to read and write but if one does not learn to do so then that is his own fault. God looks at humanity not as individuals but as a human family that ought to know better for itself given the brain and senses and bodies. Why people then do what they do to harm each other when they can see they are doing wrong? They are supposed to act thoughtfully not like other animals but if they do so, it is their own choice. When some do bad things others are supposed to stop them instead of minding their own business. If people will mind their own business and act as individuals then each will be for himself but that is not how God brought them in this world. People can see they came from each other and that they need family and wider society and therefore that society or community has to be such that gives them better future. Why then people design ways of life that create problems rather than solving them? All this does not need God to come and interfere in our daily lives. We can see that all things work systematically in the universe not randomly. Fire always produces heat not ice.

You are trying to take ability of choice away from man to show man as a weak thing ie poor human being. God is so cruel giving man room to do his own things and face consequences. You want a kid to put his hand in fire and god come and save him. This is responsibility for human community to make sure they bring into this world people they can take care of ie God encourages man to plan his existence sensibly. He wants people to organise and regulate in a way that helps humanity and not be stupid and worst than animals.

What you are saying is that God should not have created man with ability to choose. If I accept that then what will be the point of creation of human beings? So long as man is able to choose God will have to accept his choices to some extent but that will depend upon purpose of creation. Since man is created with a range of choices for purpose of god so whatever man does or happens to man as apart of it will have to be looked at in that context. There is no other way to look at it but if you have then please explain.

regards and all the best .