has humanity understood the quran properly?

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
sum
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

Your quote -
You are right that golden rule puts all on equal footing but are people in the real world on equal footing? No they are not. There is a lot inconsistency in the world and people are complaining against each throughout the world. It is because ultimately it is politics and economics that decide how world works and the world is set on foundation of double standard. All of us complain that there is one system for rich and powerful and another for weak and poor. You and I may well be on same side but a lot of others are not. How do we make anti social elements behave themselves so that sense of golden rule settles in and becomes useful? I do not think the answer is, let them have it their way, do you? So carrot and stick has to be the way to handle things and yes there is a lot of room for mistakes because we human being are not yet experienced handlers of such situations. However we will get there one day.

One point that you must understand is that the Golden Rule has all people on the same footing. The law is a different subject. It must also be understood that Islam starts by having people on different footings where some are not equal to others. Do you agree that this should be so?

Islam is ruthless against those who do not accept the word of the Muhammad, the most evil man in the history of mankind. Why should people accept the word of this evil man when Jesus brought a much more humane message from god? How can you get people to believe in Islam just because Muhammad claimed to be a prophet? This is the evil intolerance of Islam. On the one hand there is Jesus. On the other hand there is Muhammad. How does the ordinary citizen know who to believe and follow? Is Allah so empty headed that he can not understand this dilemma that mankind faces?

In good faith mankind might follow Jesus and not Muhammad but the evil Allah demands warfare against the followers of Jesus and - you know chapter 9:29. Is this fair? Is Allah simply just an invention of Muhammad for his own personal gain?

Mughal, it stares you in the face but you are unable to see it. What has happened to you? Has your initial Islamic indoctrination resurfaced and taken over your mind? What has happened to your reason and critical thinking? You can not make a silk purse out of a sow`s ear. This is what you are attempting to do with Islam. Wake up, Mughal, and shed your evil Islamic indoctrination.

sum

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manfred
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by manfred »

I am still waiting for an answer:

You claim that ALL Muslims, including Mohammed have seriously misinterpreted the Qur'an and completely misunderstood what you claim is God's message.

If this is true we need to know:

a) Could Allah not explain himself better? Is Allah unable to provide a message to mankind without your help?

b) Why did Allah allow such travesty with his own message? There are three possibilities: 1)Allah is intrinsically evil and did this in order to lead people astray, so that he has an excuse to torture them in hell. 2) Allah was powerless to prevent it. 3) Allah did not care about his message and what would become of it.

c) How come that ONLY YOU, in 1400 years understood the Qur'an correctly. This is a truly fantastic claim, making you far superior to Mohammed who you say did not understand the Qur'an. For this extraordinary claim of yours you obstinately refuse to provide proof.
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ygalg
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by ygalg »

Mughal wrote: God did not create people unable to understand things but if they do not use their god given faculties that is up to themselves because they are freewill creatures.

if we had god given faculties we would not be here debating.
God never expected anything of people which was beyond them.
koran should have been aligned to that limit. it does not. it demands proper interpretation.
remind you your own wordings from the start of the thread "has humanity understood the quran properly?" thus you in agreement but curious what we have to say on the matter.

A child is not expected to know the scripture but a grown up is but if one does not that is not fault of god. It is fault of humanity as a whole because it ought to look after its members properly. If we do not know scriptures properly it is because of ourselves that we either do not teach them properly to each other or we do not learn them properly from each other.
oh, it is god's fault. he is the one who makes the world go round ... omnipotent, omniscient god, guilty as charged.
As for language of any scripture that is not really important because throughout time people developed existing languages and came up with new ones.
orthodox jews were opposing turning hebrew into an israeli national language, because it is considered a "holy language". they feared language used on regular basis aside on prayers etc, will be abused. such sentiments were not expressed by any other religious domain. when you claim the source is same, you've got to be consistent.

unlike for koran be claimed its for all generations, times and for all humanity, Torah was issued for jewish people alone. when you have a such big claims made for koran and it does not meet the requirements. you have to question the credibility of koran.
No language was there for all times

koran supposed to meet any language and be comprehensive for all humanity, all times and all generations.
“a true believer as a person so fanatically committed to a cause that no amount of reality can make him abandon it” Eric Hoffer

frankie
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by frankie »

Mughal:

Please answer how are Muslims to put into action the following, using the Quran and Sunnah as their reference point.

1) How did Mohammed put into action "fighting in Allah's cause"


2) How exactly do/did Muslims "fight those who do not believe in Allah....."


Quran 9.29
Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 065.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Musa : A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame
and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that
Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."

Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to
forgive him.)"

darth
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by darth »

Mughal wrote:
Dear darth, this is really funny. You wanted to go to source and then went straight for nonsense translations and I gave you link to more than three dozen translations which you rejected.

after all this you commented on words used by tranlators eg word heart. it shows you are not aware of how languages work. please look into dictionary and see what are the uses of word heart.

Here is what freedictionary says about word heart.
Don't beat around the bush with nonsensical explanations. If the quran writers thought that the brain and the heart flip flopped, then they are much more of a bunch of ignoramus than I thought.
The ignoramus of seventh century arabia thought the centre of thought was the heart (as in near the chest). They had no concept of the brain. Hence from the time the quran was made up by your "prophet" it has been translated as "heart". I suppose after western science discovers a specific type of neuron to be the part responsible for thinking you will retranslate this to imply that specific type of neuron.

So, let us see your statement again -
The Quran states that Allah has given mankind brain and senses and that they should use them properly for learning through observation and reflection. This was said 1400 years back.
Prove to us -
a)That they considered the center of thinking as the part within the head (brain) and not the part within the chest (heart) as has been translated for 1400 years
b) That the quran instructs the use of this part (within the head) properly for leaning through observation and reflection.

Mughal
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

Dear friends, it is better if you people go through my work because it could help you see things in their proper context and perspective. After seeing what I have to say you can always come back and ask questions. Simply arguing for sake it is not proper way of discussing anything.

I have put before people an alternative interpretation of the quran just like people before. I know it will take time before it is understood and adopted by wider human community.

I cannot force anyone to see what I have done but as I said before, I still have more than a few parts to do so I better carry on. meanwhile good luck with your adventures.

http://archive.org/details/EnglishTranslationOfTheQuran" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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manfred
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by manfred »

You had a chance to say what you wanted in this thread and explain things. You chose not to. You posted obfuscating waffle instead.

When will you ask yourself the relevant question:

Have I understood the Qur'an correctly?


The Qur'an is not a complicated text, nor is it hard to understand. It is very badly written and boring to read, that is all. It's message is clear enough. It is a monstrous insult of the intelligence of all the people who lived in the last 1400 years that they cannot understand a text as basic as that.

You will not change Islam by inventing a new Qur'an. You will make Muslims angry though, but that is not something unusual.
Simply arguing for sake it is not proper way of discussing anything.
If you want people to accept anything you say you need to be able to justify it. "Read my stuff and stand in awe" is not going to work, not with anyone.

I have put before people an alternative interpretation....
You don't have an "interpretation" at all. An interpretation is an explanation of a text WITH CLEAR JUSTIFICATION. Suggesting a completely new meaning for the whole of the Qu'ran without the slightest hint of proper method or justification, and then calling all those who do not agree somewhat mentally deficient is just laughable, to be honest. The text, like any text, has to be interpreted by reading what it says and placing it in the textual and historical context.

Your "interpretation" is an attempt to dishonestly represent the Qur'an, maybe in order to draw converts to Islam. Once joined, people find out the actual meaning to their cost.

You had a number of important and probing question from various people, and as usual, you have not answered them.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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pr126
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Post by pr126 »

Dear Mughal,

The Quran (Islam) was created solely for the Muslim Mohammedan male.

All other lifeforms, women, unbelievers, animals, plants are there for the use or abuse of the Mohammedan male as they wish, by divine command.

How do you reconcile with this insult to humanity by Allah?

Is your version really still Islam? It is clearly not. Your version is completely the opposite.

Why then call it Islam? Why call it the Quran?

As I said in the past, you are not re-interpreting the Quran at all, you are replacing Allah's words with your own.
That's blasphemy. You know what happens to blasphemers in Islam.
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.

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ygalg
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by ygalg »

Mughal wrote: I have put before people an alternative interpretation of the quran
what is the miracle, where humanity understood the koran improperly which requires multiply interpretation?

on what authority you base this an alternative interpretation of the koran, to be the proper one? allah speaks to you? do you hear voices?
“a true believer as a person so fanatically committed to a cause that no amount of reality can make him abandon it” Eric Hoffer

darth
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by darth »

I do not understand, mughal, how you can continue with your silly mental gymnastics.
Read this verse again -

22.46 -So have they not traveled through the earth and have hearts by which to reason and ears by which to hear? For indeed, it is not eyes that are blinded, but blinded are the hearts which are within the breasts.

Here quran tells us clearly which specific organ it is talking about, which organ it thinks does the reasoning - it is the one within the breast.

So, let us read your sentence again -
The Quran states that Allah has given mankind brain and senses and that they should use them properly for learning through observation and reflection. This was said 1400 years back.
a) quran alludes to the organ within the breast as the one that reasons, not the brain.
b) The verses your provide does not say anything about using them properly for learning through observation and reflection. In fact all that the verses do is accuse people of being blind, not reasoning etc.

If you make claims that the quran said this or that, bring us the direct proof from the quran. We do not want suppositions, imaginations and mental gymnastics....

piscohot
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by piscohot »

4:23 Prohibited to you [for marriage] are your mothers, your daughters, your sisters, your father's sisters, your mother's sisters, your brother's daughters, your sister's daughters, your [milk] mothers who nursed you, your sisters through nursing, your wives' mothers, and your step-daughters under your guardianship [born] of your wives unto whom you have gone in. But if you have not gone in unto them, there is no sin upon you. And [also prohibited are] the wives of your sons who are from your [own] loins, and that you take [in marriage] two sisters simultaneously, except for what has already occurred. Indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful.

Mughal's translation of same verse:

4:23 It is therefore unlawful for you as communities and administrations to enter into agreements with other communities and administrations where agreements are already in place in order to undercut and unduly exploit each other such as your mother communities and administrations, your daughter communities and administrations, your sister communities and administrations, your paternal parental sister communities and administrations, your maternal parental sister communities and administrations, your brother communities and administrations’ daughter communities and administrations, your sister communities and administrations’ daughter communities and administrations, your foster mother communities and administrations, your foster sister communities and administrations, your partner communities and administrations’ mother communities and administrations, your step daughter communities and administrations provided you entered in contract with their mother communities and administrations already but if you have not entered in to contract with them already then there is no harm in it for you. Moreover it is lawful for you to enter in contract with your own community administrators who are backbone of your community that is how you should bring any two communities under the same main administration instead of continuing what went on before. Surely Allah is protector of people through blissful revelation.

:???:

I think even Allah is confused by the above translation.

eg. - so it would be lawful for me as a community and administration to enter into agreement with my sister's communities and administration as long as i have entered into contract with her mother's communities and administrations?

Mughal, i have no idea what i am talking about. :lol:

you do? ... really?
Quran miracle (16:69) : Bees eat ALL fruits
Quran miracle (27:18) : an ant SAID, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."

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manfred
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by manfred »

But if you have not gone in unto them, there is no sin upon you. (from 4:34)
So here the Qur'an sanctions non-penetrative sex with all you female relatives, your mother, your daughter, anyone really. The only condition is you should not "go in", it says.

"Go in" where? Obviously this means vaginal sex, and possibly, but not necessarily anal sex. So as long as you steer clear of those two, there is "no sin". It could be argued that "anal" does not count as going in, as the text does not further specify.

But, if we look at hadith, we find that this practice is allowed between husband and wife, even though perhaps not favoured...
73 - بَابُ عَدَمِ تَحْرِيمِ وَطْءِ الزَّوْجَةِ وَ السُّرِّيَّةِ فِي الدُّبُرِ
“Chapter on the absence of prohibition of sexual intercourse (with) the wife and mistress (mut’a wife) in the anus”

Source:
Al-`Aamilee, Wasaa'il Al-Shee`ah, vol. 20, pg. 145, ch. 73

Here is a hadeeth from the first section.

عَنْهُ عَنْ عَلِيِّ بْنِ الْحَكَمِ قَالَ سَمِعْتُ صَفْوَانَ يَقُولُ قُلْتُ لِلرِّضَا ع إِنَّ رَجُلًا مِنْ مَوَالِيكَ أَمَرَنِي أَنْ أَسْأَلَكَ عَنْ مَسْأَلَةٍ فَهَابَكَ وَ اسْتَحَى مِنْكَ أَنْ يَسْأَلَكَ قَالَ مَا هِيَ قَالَ قُلْتُ الرَّجُلُ يَأْتِي امْرَأَتَهُ فِي دُبُرِهَا قَالَ نَعَمْ ذَلِكَ لَهُ قُلْتُ فَأَنْتَ تَفْعَلُ ذَلِكَ قَالَ لَا إِنَّا لَا نَفْعَلُ ذَلِكَ
“I said: 'Can a man come to his wife in her anus?'. He (Ali ibn al-Hakam) said: 'Yes that is for him(Mohammed).' I said: 'Do you do this?' He said: 'No, I do not do this.'
Ok... :barf:

So, mind boggles at the gross depravity in Islam...

So, are you surprised that Mughal wants to hide such a hideous verse with all possible effort? He went into overdrive, and he produced some verbal diarrhoea outclassing the original by miles. The trouble is, he was so keep to blind people to the actual text that he ended up writing such a garble, that you feel compelled to look up what it actually says. So he defeated his own purpose.

Perhaps, Mughal, you can show us the word "Administration" in the original Arabic? (إدارة) I have not found that word AT ALL in the Qu'ran. Can you show me an instance of it. Also, please point to the word "community/communities" in the verse مجتمع, or مجتمعات ... my glasses are rather old and I cannot for the life of me find it in the verse.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

piscohot
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by piscohot »

@Mughal,

throughout your interpretation of the quran, there is this constant mention of 'the PROGRAM, the CONSTITUTION and the LAW of Allah.

where can i find them?

also the constant mention of committing/not committing to working for 'peace and prosperity in the land' is just too vague.
does the quran mention precisely how a person is going to achieve that?
I know, you are going to say that we have to follow the program and constitution of Allah.

where can i find them?

also:
23) Yet if you are in any kind of doubt or suspicion concerning this program and constitution for peace, progress and prosperity that We have revealed for the mankind through Our messenger then bring a program, a constitution and guidelines for laws as good as this yourselves if you can. If you on your own cannot then invite all your supporters other than Allah to help you do this and see if your doubting it can really prove true by producing an alternative to it.
Frankly, the program, constitution and laws in many countries are much much better than the vague mentions in your quran, Mughal.

Human race do not need the quran to tell them how destructive war is.
It is a lesson humans have learnt over the centuries without the need for a book to tell them.
If the quran want to be useful then it need to tell people exactly how they can achieve peace and prosperity together as a human race.

and not have more nonsense like the one below:

sura 2:6 As for those who commit to inflicting harm and destruction upon each other, it has same effect upon them whether you warn them or you warn them not against harmful and destructive results of their thoughts and actions against each other because they are determined to not to listen to you and think things through so they will not commit to working for peace, progress and prosperity of mankind.
Quran miracle (16:69) : Bees eat ALL fruits
Quran miracle (27:18) : an ant SAID, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."

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manfred
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by manfred »

2:6 says:
As to those who reject Faith, it is the same to them whether thou warn them or do not warn them; they will not believe.
So rejecting Islam for Mughal is a crime as it is equated with "commit to inflicting harm and destruction upon each other", whereas accepting Islam is equated with " commit to working for peace, progress and prosperity of mankind"...

:barf: mind boggles...



It seems the obvious escapes Mughal: most who reject Islam HAVE LISTENED carefully, as he puts it, and found something corrupt and violent, utterly repugnant. So this is rejected. So yes, jump up and down if you must, few people will accept Islam voluntarily, because where ever it goes it brings death and destruction, to paraphrase the last emperor of Constantinople, Constantine XI Palailogos.
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Mughal
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

Dear friends, we have three things to understand a)God b)divine revelation and c)humanity

If we discuss anything we have to begin with a supposition about it because in actual fact there is no basis for anything as far as we humans are concerned because it is all in our minds and our ideas are learned from our own life experiences which we cannot prove real or not real because we have no way to do so.

We can only build on our logic and rationality and reality as we can have it in our minds.

Our ultimate argument for existence of God rests on the point that created things cannot have infinite chain going back in time. This is why we have no choice but to accept that there is a creator at the end of all this who himself was not created. It makes perfect sense rationally and that is how far we can go on that issue. Beyond that we can neither prove existence of God positively unless we rely of divine revelation nor disprove it even rationally. It is because ultimately we will have to accept the matter is ever existence and not only that but it has all the properties the creator has, which then defeats the very purpose of not accepting existence of a creator. This is why idea of existence of a creator is impossible to disprove rationally. However, we have plenty of problems with idea of divine revelation even though the actual divine revelation may fit its purpose perfectly.

Our 2nd problem is concept of divine revelation. Since we opened our eyes we have been bombarded with claims that God has been communicating with humanity always. The problem is that there are claims and counter claims and that situation needs sorting out because without that life remains a confusion and a chaos. If we get troubled by one things in one way we get it from another thing in another way. So we end up looking for ways to sort out our problems that we face in this rergard.

we all will agree that peace and war is most pressing problem for mankind, our history tells us that world has been a hell hole for mankind so all we can do is look for ways to solving this problem. Scriptures have been the sole basis for peace between people. I want to know why scriptures have been part of solution and not problem?
Without help of scriptures there is no future for mankind. This is very important point but I want others to tell me why that is the case? My questions are not for confrontation but to see how much people have pondered over issues I am raising because if they have thought about these things then they should not be asking me questions about things they ought to be knowing themselves already.

So one should realise why I am taking scriptures so seriously whereas to others scriptures are the main problem. It is because they have not reached the stage of thinking that is needed to see the scriptures in proper light.


Now the final thing is humanity? what do we know about humanity? If there is no God then all problems are created by humans for humans. But why could it not be the case even if there was a god?

The questions we need to ask ourselves are, what is origin of mankind, how do they become self aware? how do they become aware of universal realities? How good is their self awareness? how good is there awareness of universal realities? what are their motivations and where do they come from? why do they have the mindsets that they have? Why do they have the attitudes that they have? why do they behave the way they do? Is it possible to change or modify human minds, attitudes and behaviours?

Likewise we need to ask questions like do we have or need human societies and communities? If yes why? if no, why not? If we want human communities then what should be their basis? How should we manage human populations and how should we manage available resources to ensure our survival and beyond that dignified existence and pleasant life?

We need to educate each other about what kind of people we ourselves are and what kind of people should we be and are we already there or not? If not then how are we going to get there where we should be?

All these like questions will tell us how should we conduct our politics and how should we conduct our economics related affairs in order to ensure our better future.

Having empty minds and talking about god or scriptures makes no sense on its own because there is no context and perspective in place to see how things come together in form of an actual proper picture of the whole situation.

The isolating technique becomes negative if there is no context but positive when there is one. For example, if I say to some one make me a door, what will he make of it? But if I give him full picture then tell him make me a door he will know what I am talking about.

This is why people who look at things as isolated bits and pieces without ever knowing how they come together only and only keep themselves confused about the real thing. However staying confused and spreading confusion has a price for humanity and that is why we must find some solid basis to solve problems.

So whenever we see any people doing anything, we need to look at their state of awareness. we will never find most aware and alert people doing most stupid things. It is always foolish people who end up talking or doing silly things, if anyone else ends up doing anything silly it is only because of error of judgement or lack of attention.


Now if we will judge people around the world on this basis then we will have better picture of things otherwise we are just expressing our own ignorance about realities of things.

This is why if we want to discuss things for proper solutions of problems then we must become aware of things from various points of views otherwise it is only tit for tat arguments which actually lead nowhere other than an long drawn out discussion. It too is a way of education but for a people seriously lacking capability for understanding ideas or concepts. It is a way of children trying to argue with each other in a childish way. Grown up people only need a clue and they are there, this why divine scriptures only provide clues and those clues need thinking people who could put them together so that we could get to the end result. This is why the quran is the way it is and man is the way he is. So when man helps himself to awareness of things the quranic text starts making sense the way it should. If man had to be totally programmed by God then there will not be any need for revelation as a guideline. This calls for interaction between revelation and man and that is because man is given the very powerful brain and senses. Man is created with capability to find the missing things by himself and God is giving him clues to lead him in a particular direction by his own effort. The quran is not written badly but it is written for a set purpose that is why it is written the way it is. Anything done by anyone is always done for the purpose of the doer. This is why the quran needs to be read in that context. This is why asking the main question is very important ie why Allah created mankind? Once we get that answer from the quran we will see that it all makes sense.

Since I want to complete my interpretation that is why I cannot get into argument just yet but if one reads through my interpretation and then compares it with other translations one will see how those translation will start making sense. I still have 7/30 of the quran to go through so please be patient and you will do yourselves a lot of good by reading what I have written. One should not think what I am saying is free of any mistakes because this is a unique attempt of its kind and the very first at that. I too need to come to grips with what I am discovering by going through quranic text this way. As I am going through the quran it is making more and more sense but once I have gone through the whole quran and then god through it again, I might have more to share.

regards and all the best.

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manfred
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by manfred »

Dear friends, we have three things to understand a)God b)divine revelation and c)humanity
It really is a lot simpler than you make out...

Let's assume you are right and there is a God who wants to communicate with humans.

It is not conceivable to imagine a God with character flaws, a kind of evil deity. Because evil is essentially a DEFECT, it makes no sense to imagine an evil God. Similarly, as ignorance is a defect, a lack of knowledge, an ignorant God is similarly not a viable proposition.

So if an infinitely good and all knowing God, the creator all present, past and future universes would say something to humanity what would it be? I cannot presume to know this, nor can anyone. I can' however say quite a few things about would he WOULD NOT POSSIBLY say.
  • He would not deceive, do damage or threaten any harm to humans.
  • He would not be hateful or violent OR promote such things.
  • He would not say things that are misleading or that are factually inaccurate, such as historically or scientifically false things.
  • He would not talk about the trivial, the banal or the irrelevant.
  • He would be clear, coherent and logical.
This would mean that any alleged revelation from God that does any or all such things are not what it claims.

That rules out the Qur'an as the whole text is riddled with examples of all of these. The text itself is irrefutable proof that it could not possibly have divine origin.

Sadly therefore, I take no pleasure in telling you this over and over, your effort is a waste of time. Even your re-write will not make it a divinely authored text.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

sum
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

Your quote -
Our ultimate argument for existence of God rests on the point that created things cannot have infinite chain going back in time. This is why we have no choice but to accept that there is a creator at the end of all this who himself was not created. It makes perfect sense rationally...

No, it does not make sense, Mughal. The argument for the origin of the universe is exactly the same as the argument for the existence of god.

Your quote -
My questions are not for confrontation but to see how much people have pondered over issues I am raising because if they have thought about these things then they should not be asking me questions about things they ought to be knowing themselves already.

You are not the only one who gives serious thought to these matters. We ask you questions not to gain knowledge but to try and understand your illogical mindset.

Your quote -
So one should realise why I am taking scriptures so seriously whereas to others scriptures are the main problem. It is because they have not reached the stage of thinking that is needed to see the scriptures in proper light.

Mughal, I am now beginning to doubt the state of your mind. You give the impression that you are the only deep thinker and we are simply superficial.

Your quote -
The questions we need to ask ourselves are, what is origin of mankind, how do they become self aware? how do they become aware of universal realities? How good is their self awareness? how good is there awareness of universal realities? what are their motivations and where do they come from? why do they have the mindsets that they have? Why do they have the attitudes that they have? why do they behave the way they do? Is it possible to change or modify human minds, attitudes and behaviours?

The questions can be answered by you from your own upbringing in Islam. It is called indoctrination and can actually alter and change the way that the brain works. Do you accept that the mind is only a flesh and blood computer which is programmed by life and indoctrination? Can you not see that muslims are incapable of independent critical thinking and logical thought when it comes to Islam? You are an example of this. It is for you to stop and do some serious reflection on why you have the beliefs that you do and ask yourself if they could be the result of Islamic indoctrination.

It could be considered a little more than arrogant for you to imply that we are not thinking deeply enough when in reality you have displayed complete denial over what the Koran specifically says. Open your eyes unless Allah has rendered you blind to his clear message.

sum

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Hombre
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Hombre »

Mughal wrote:has humanity understood the quran properly? my understanding of the quranic message.

http://www.jangforum.net/index.php?PHPS ... pic=5206.0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If you really really wish to understand the Quran, and its meaning. Very simple.

First, read the Hebrew Bible, where the story of Adam & Eve. Avraham.Joseph, Noha, & Moses are toled in details.
Then, read te new Testement about the life of Jesus of Nazerat.

After that, you can be sure, you don't need to read the Quran. Becasue most to the stories told about the Jewish and Christian prophets, are copied from these two books, and twisted around to suit Mohamad's motives.

Muaslims can not copy tenents from one book (Hebrew Bibles & NT) onto another (Quran) one, and lable the sources "fake" and invalid.

ringmaster
Posts: 1679
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:36 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by ringmaster »

pr126 wrote:Dear Mughal,

The Quran (Islam) was created solely for the Muslim Mohammedan male.

All other lifeforms, women, unbelievers, animals, plants are there for the use or abuse of the Mohammedan male as they wish, by divine command.

How do you reconcile with this insult to humanity by Allah?

Is your version really still Islam? It is clearly not. Your version is completely the opposite.

Why then call it Islam? Why call it the Quran?

As I said in the past, you are not re-interpreting the Quran at all, you are replacing Allah's words with your own.
That's blasphemy. You know what happens to blasphemers in Islam.
It all smells of Mesmorial under a different handle.
The prophet of Islam was nothing more than a common criminal.

Please tell me if this is accurate:

“I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.”
~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111)

ringmaster
Posts: 1679
Joined: Tue Dec 21, 2010 11:36 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by ringmaster »

Hombre wrote:
Mughal wrote:has humanity understood the quran properly? my understanding of the quranic message.

http://www.jangforum.net/index.php?PHPS ... pic=5206.0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
If you really really wish to understand the Quran, and its meaning. Very simple.

First, read the Hebrew Bible, where the story of Adam & Eve. Avraham.Joseph, Noha, & Moses are toled in details.
Then, read te new Testement about the life of Jesus of Nazerat.

After that, you can be sure, you don't need to read the Quran. Becasue most to the stories told about the Jewish and Christian prophets, are copied from these two books, and twisted around to suit Mohamad's motives.

Muaslims can not copy tenents from one book (Hebrew Bibles & NT) onto another (Quran) one, and lable the sources "fake" and invalid.
Actually, the koran is much simpler than even what you say here.

To understand the koran, we only have to understand relatively few latter Medina verses. Pretty much everything else in that garbage book (especially anything of a peaceful or tolerant nature) is abrogated.

A couple of dozen or so latter Medina verses will tell any casual reader everything he/she needs to know. It is evil, satanic filth.

For example, for a muslim to defend a verse like 4:34, he must find a verse that not only contradicts that verse, but also a verse that comes chronologically later. There aren't any. Case closed.
The prophet of Islam was nothing more than a common criminal.

Please tell me if this is accurate:

“I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.”
~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111)

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