has humanity understood the quran properly?

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
Mughal
Posts: 871
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

Sense and sensibility in islam by abdul elah nazer.
https://www.amazon.com/Sense-Sensibilit ... 1469148307" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

sum
Posts: 6623
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

Last sentence in extract of book -

He comes to the conclusions that Islam is a set of social reforms that lead to peace, security and human rights for all.

Are these human rights the same for all people - muslim and non-muslim?

sum

Mughal
Posts: 871
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

Last sentence in extract of book -

He comes to the conclusions that Islam is a set of social reforms that lead to peace, security and human rights for all.

Are these human rights the same for all people - muslim and non-muslim?

sum
Dear sum, I have already answered these like questions for you. Try and distinguish between what foolish people imagine islam to be and what sensible people imagine islam to be. Also see what are the basis for their differences. If you find any of them based upon solid foundation then side with them. You will be ok. I have explained for people like you in my posts how you should try and understand the quran.

Our fight should be about who is based upon truth and right and not about labelling each other unless we can prove that labelling is really correct.

Truth and right is, we all must work for our survival. That is because if we don't have life or livelihood then nothing matters, does it?

However once we have secured our lives and livelihood to a reasonable degree then all of our rest of time must go towards learning about creation and revelation of God so that then we could work towards a great life for all of us in this world for as long as God has given us. So long as we will do that sincerely we need not to worry about anything at all.

God is not a tyrant as mullahs of all religions have portrayed him or as all anti religion people have imagined him due to not doing what these people needed to do for themselves by themselves as I have mentioned above already.

There is no sense for anti religious people in debating mullahs for rejecting God and humanity rather they should use their time in learning message of God as it ought to be learned. For so long as people will not do this they will not find the truth or what is right to base themselves upon for having a great life.

regards and all the best.

sum
Posts: 6623
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

Your quote -
There is no sense for anti religious people in debating mullahs for rejecting God and humanity rather they should use their time in learning message of God as it ought to be learned. For so long as people will not do this they will not find the truth or what is right to base themselves upon for having a great life.

Are Christians anti-religious people? Why do you reject a much more humane and fair religion which abides by the Golden Rule that Islam clearly rejects even within Islam itself?

I live my life according to the Golden Rule. Is that not good enough?

I fear that you can not see the wood for the trees.

sum

Mughal
Posts: 871
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:
Sun Mar 22, 2020 1:59 pm
Hello Mughal

Your quote -
There is no sense for anti religious people in debating mullahs for rejecting God and humanity rather they should use their time in learning message of God as it ought to be learned. For so long as people will not do this they will not find the truth or what is right to base themselves upon for having a great life.

Are Christians anti-religious people? Why do you reject a much more humane and fair religion which abides by the Golden Rule that Islam clearly rejects even within Islam itself?

I live my life according to the Golden Rule. Is that not good enough?

I fear that you can not see the wood for the trees.

sum
Dear sum, you are surprising me with your line of questions if I may say so. I have been explaining for you quite a few things to help you understand the message in the quran by yourself yet you have not bothered to try and make sense of them. You have not shown at all that you are willing to make some effort towards that end. May I ask why you have not bothered to discover the message in the quran the way you should?

I did explain that no book in the world is worth studying as a word of God because there is none other than the quran that claims to be word of God. You have not bothered to take this aboard. I am not saying we should not study other books rather we should because our first knowledge comes from our own direct life experiences and what we teach and learn from each other. The indirect learning and teaching starts after that.

We first learn obvious mechanism based reasoning and then rational thinking regarding the abstract. This is why when a person is pedalling on his bike and bike moves one knows the bike is going but as soon as the chain breaks and pedalling becomes ineffective the person looks down and sees what went wrong ie he sees a broken chain. Same way of fault finding is not applicable if your tv breaks down. An engineer has to trace fault in tv by logic alone to see which section may be responsible for the fault.

Likewise we learn how to think logically by using self evident things and from there on we learn how to think at higher level. One who cannot think at that level cannot find faults in complex circuitry of an electronic appliance or equipment. Like wise one who has not learned the way to make proper sense of self evident things cannot make proper sense of the quranic text. This is why I explained for you and others the right way of understanding the quranic text.

Other scriptures do not even claim to be word of God to begin with so no point in wasting our time with them to prove them word of God. The quran claims to be word of God. This point if you cannot grab then you will have great difficulty in understanding the quranic message.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEfVf_YqgRs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPyFt2xY41A

regards and all the best.

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by manfred »

Other scriptures do not even claim to be word of God
So making a claim makes something true.... Really?

Suppose I make a signpost that reads "I am a hippopotamus" .... what is it? A signpost or a hippo? Or do I become a hippo upon reading the sign?

This is a very revealing passage, and VERY Muslim:
The quran claims to be word of God. This point if you cannot grab then you will have great difficulty in understanding the quranic message.
It is not a difficult concept to say that the quran is the "word of God". But it is simply false. The Qur'an is a VERY human text, and a badly written one at that. We know that the idea that it s the "word of God" cannot be true because there are great many errors in it. But instead of providing evidence for your claim about the quran you simply say if you don't accept that then you are an idiot. That is the way arguments generally work with Muslims.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

sum
Posts: 6623
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

I have lost count of the number of questions that I have asked you and which you have ignored.

I asked you the following and I am still waiting for your reply -

Are Christians anti-religious people? Why do you reject a much more humane and fair religion which abides by the Golden Rule that Islam clearly rejects even within Islam itself?

I live my life according to the Golden Rule. Is that not good enough?


Please answer my question.

sum

Mughal
Posts: 871
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:
Wed Aug 05, 2020 9:46 pm
Hello Mughal

I have lost count of the number of questions that I have asked you and which you have ignored.

I asked you the following and I am still waiting for your reply -

Are Christians anti-religious people? Why do you reject a much more humane and fair religion which abides by the Golden Rule that Islam clearly rejects even within Islam itself?

I live my life according to the Golden Rule. Is that not good enough?


Please answer my question.

sum
Dear sum, I answered almost all of your questions but you seem to ignore my answers. I have explained clearly for you the way to understand the quran so that you could get your answers from the quran directly. Now if you are not bothered with learning the quran then there is not much that I or for that matter anyone else can do because everyone has to find the actual truth for oneself.

I am not a religious minded person because I don't think God sent his messengers to impose religion upon people. God has created this world for his own purpose according to his own plan. So christianity or for that matter any religion cannot be from God. Why not? Because it does not deal with issue of livelihood and living properly in this world. This is why all versions of religion and secularism are condemnable the way they make people suffer terribly by hands of each other.

Tell me any religion some people of which are not suffering terribly by hands of the others of the very same religion. Are some hindus not making lives of rest of hindus a living hell? Yes, they are. The very same is true about Parsies, jews, christians, muslims, sikhs etc etc. Tell me if secularism is any better than religion? You cannot because secularist are fighting each other over socialism or communism or capitalism etc etc. All these people are worse than each other. Do you see golden rule as a way of life anywhere in any christian country or for that matter in any country in the world? Anywhere and everywhere almost all people live as they like and they do not care much about anyone or anything at all. This is why we see terrible painful suffering anywhere and everywhere caused by people to each other by themselves. So none can defend humanity for doing to each other what it did or is doing and will continue doing till it becomes educated out of all this nonsense that occupies its mind. This can only be done through the help of the quran alone.

Why the quran alone? Because only and only the quran teaches people how to live in this world properly. Unfortunately people stopped learning the quran soon after the death of the messenger of God, so today not many people know the actual message of the quran. This is why I had to go deeper into things to see what has been going on and what will continue to happen for a while yet till the actual message of the quran is rediscovered by humanity.

Once the quranic message has been rediscovered and brought to light from then on things will start changing in human world for the best at a lightning speed. But till then we will have to put up with all kinds of nonsense that humanity forces upon each other.

As for golden rule, on its own it means nothing at all because one needs moral values from outside humanity which could be proven as such so that people could truly base themselves upon them rationally and purposefully for their own well being. This is why such a thing cannot happen without the proper understanding of the quran.

regards and all the best

User avatar
Hombre
Posts: 3741
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:18 am

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Hombre »

mughal
the more I read your nonsense - the more I am convinced you have been brainwashed. You are so influenced such that you don't even realize you contradict yourself. Here is one example
So christianity or for that matter any religion cannot be from God. Why not?
That should includes Islam no? why not? because you don't know what you are talking about.

For god sake!! the Quran in littered with passages of hatred of those who refuse to believe in Muhammad. Passages like "kill infidels (non-Muslims) where ever you find them." and manyy more such nonsense.

I leave the exact quotes from your beloved Quran to manfred who knows the Quran - its purpose & meanings far better then you my good man.

antineoETC
Posts: 1910
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:53 am

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by antineoETC »

Mughal used to write very logically but at some point for some reason it all went out the window and he has since expended astonishing amounts of time and effort pouring out reams of gibberish.
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website

antineoETC
Posts: 1910
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:53 am

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by antineoETC »

I imagine that Mughal originally adopted a totally Quran-only position - Ayesha is after all not mentioned in the book of Allan. However, after realising that Qur'anic contradictions cannot be explained away without recourse to hadith he shifted to an "accept hadith that don't contradict the Qur'an" position. This stance enables him to hold that Qur'an passages implicitly permitting alcohol have been abrogated by the verse explicitly banning it whilst simultaneously rejecting extra-Quranic material showing that perfect Muslim role model Muhammad used outright forcible conversion to spread Islam when he was strong enough to do so. I would take him more seriously if he went to jihad zones and sought to convince Islamists that their understanding of jihad is wrong.
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website

antineoETC
Posts: 1910
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:53 am

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by antineoETC »

Even without the hadith Islam is still pretty nasty. I would still like Mughal to tell me if he thinks "adulterers" should be mercilessly flogged like Allah says they should. This straightforward command cannot be "contextualised" as I suspect Mughal has attempted with all sorts of mental and semantic gymnastics. No, flog means flog and under no circumstances can it be made to mean "kiss". Isn't that right Mughal? (I don't seriously expect him to reply).
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website

antineoETC
Posts: 1910
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:53 am

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by antineoETC »

Mughal epitomizes the terrible dilemma we face. If he wishes to delude himself that Islam, properly interpreted, is all sweetness and light then that is clearly preferable to him becoming an out and out Islamist. The only other alternative is outright apostasy. This he has already done but could not sustain it - probably because without his"Muslim" identity he did not know who he was and was, moreover, isolated from his friends and family. However, there is a danger that Mughal could inveigle vulnerable non-Muslims into entering the fold of Islam and subsequently become "radicalised". This is the very danger that Sufis pose, even when they are not being deliberately deceitful.
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website

User avatar
Hombre
Posts: 3741
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:18 am

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Hombre »

Unfortunately mughal exhibits the classic case of cult personality as result of brainwashing. Jews have them (ultra-Orthodox), Christians have them & of course Islam (Al-Qaida & ISIS).

I would be most interested to read from Mughal himself how life had evolved for him & how he came to his current belief of blind follower of the Quran.

mughal please speak up.

antineoETC
Posts: 1910
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 10:53 am

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by antineoETC »

Hombre wrote:
Fri Aug 07, 2020 10:12 pm
I would be most interested to read from Mughal himself how life had evolved for him & how he came to his current belief of blind follower of the Quran
Perhaps it was triggered by Ali Sina's acceptance of life after death and literal existence of a hell where souls are punished for their sins.
mughal please speak up.
Mughal is busy on his keyboard and will be back with more of what he has posted above.
"Prophet Muhammad...bought, sold, captured, and owned slaves" SOURCE: BBC website
"Muhammad is considered to be a perfect model" SOURCE: BBC website

Post Reply