Page 14 of 15

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:04 am
by Mughal
AlexmenCorn wrote:No, my friend, Islam has always been spread by the sword, and threatening their mind numbed minions with death for leaving or questioning Islam.



Dear alexmencorn, here is what quran says about people who seek knowledge and those who do not and remain ignorant.

Spoiler! :
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/10/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/31/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/32/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/111/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/118/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/129/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/151/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/170/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/216/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/219/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/269/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/7/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/64/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/79/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/154/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/164/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/190/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/3/191/


http://islamawakened.com/quran/4/82/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/4/174/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/5/2/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/5/83/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/6/50/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/6/116/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/7/138/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/7/176/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/7/179/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/7/199/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/7/203/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/8/22/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/8/24/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/8/65/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/9/122/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/36/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/39/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/57/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/58/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/64/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/92/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/10/100/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/12/2/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/12/55/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/13/3/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/13/4/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/13/11/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/13/16/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/13/19/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/13/43/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/14/15/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/16/78/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/16/125/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/17/1/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/17/36/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/18/1/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/18/51/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/18/68/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/19/72/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/19/73/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/20/114/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/21/7/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/21/30/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/21/53/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/21/54/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/21/55/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/22/3/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/22/5/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/22/45/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/22/46/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/22/54/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/23/68/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/24/61/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/24/44/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/1/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/8/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/30/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/32/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/33/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/39/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/44/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/49/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/52/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/63/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/72/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/73/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/25/74/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/27/15/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/27/16/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/27/40/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/27/55/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/27/64/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/28/78/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/28/80/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/29/20/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/29/46/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/29/49/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/30/8/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/30/22/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/31/19/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/31/20/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/31/21/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/34/6/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/34/46/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/35/28/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/37/157/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/38/27/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/38/29/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/39/9/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/39/18/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/39/21/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/39/23/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/39/27/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/39/28/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/40/5/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/40/67/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/40/82/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/41/3/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/41/34/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/41/53/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/45/13/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/47/24/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/48/26/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/49/4/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/49/6/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/50/37/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/52/34/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/52/35/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/53/23/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/55/2/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/57/25/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/58/11/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/59/14/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/65/12/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/67/10/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/81/19/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/81/23/

http://islamawakened.com/quran/96/1/
http://islamawakened.com/quran/96/4/


These are only a few verses from the quran as a sample to show importance of consistent logical thinking. People who do not learn sense to make proper sense of things are categorised as worse than animals by the quran.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:58 am
by frankie
Mugal.

These are only a few verses from the quran as a sample to show importance of consistent logical thinking. People who do not learn sense to make proper sense of things are categorised as worse than animals by the quran.



What happened to Allah’s “logical thinking” here?

Allah tells you something which is not true; he makes a biological error by claiming "sexual fluid" comes from between the backbone of a man, and the ribs of a woman.

Quran 86.6-7
6. He is created from a drop emitted-

7. Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:

http://quranx.com/Tafsirs/86.6


The “sexual fluid “of a man is produced in the testes, found in the genital area, not the backbone of a man.
The “sexual fluid “of a woman, is formed within the vagina, during sexual intercourse, and plays no part in reproduction, it is there only for lubrication.

What does play a part in reproduction in a woman is the ovum, which is formed in the ovaries, found on each side of the lower abdomen, nowhere near the chest/ribs.

Allah got this wrong, making Allah fallible, meaning Allah cannot be God, as no God worthy of the name would make such fundamental errors about his own creation.

However many hoops you want to jump through, your own “holy” book condemns itself not to come from any creator, but from the minds of fallible men, who did not know any different to what was known at the time of their writing, allegedly 7th century Arabia.


Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an

"Sulb" is the backbone and "tara'ib"the breast- bones, i.e. the ribs. Since the procreative fluid in both man and woman is discharged from that part of the body which is between the back and the breast, it is said that man has been created from the fluid issuing out froth between the back and the breast.”



Ibn Kathir Tafsir:

"Allah says,
فَلْيَنظُرِ الإِنسَـنُ مِمَّ خُلِقَ
(So, let man see from what he is created!) This is alerting man to the weakness of his origin from which he was created. The intent of it is to guide man to accept (the reality of) the Hereafter, because whoever is able to begin the creation then he is also able to repeat it in the same way. This is as Allah says,
وَهُوَ الَّذِى يَبْدَأُ الْخَلْقَ ثُمَّ يُعِيدُهُ وَهُوَ أَهْوَنُ عَلَيْهِ
(And He it is Who originates the creation, then He will repeat it; and this is easier for Him.) (30:27) Then Allah says,
خُلِقَ مِن مَّآءٍ دَافِقٍ
(He is created from a water gushing forth.) meaning, the sexual fluid that comes out bursting forth from the man and the woman. Thus, the child is produced from both of them by the permission of Allah. Due to this Allah says,
يَخْرُجُ مِن بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَآئِبِ
(Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.) meaning, the backbone (or loins) of the man and the ribs of the woman, which is referring to her chest. Shabib bin Bishr reported from `Ikrimah who narrated from Ibn `Abbas that he said,
يَخْرُجُ مِن بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَآئِبِ
(Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.) "The backbone of the man and the ribs of the woman. It (the fluid) is yellow and fine in texture. The child will not be born except from both of them (i.e., their sexual fluids).''

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:11 am
by manfred
These are only a few verses from the quran as a sample to show importance of consistent logical thinking.


There is nothing about logical thinking in the Qur'an. You find only demagogy and hate in that book.

Please do not copy and paste dozens of links without any comment. Instead supply one reference, plus the actual text, and discuss it with your own words.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:26 pm
by M85
Islamic apologetics is so often obfuscation and diversion, anything from addressing simple points or issues.

I have always respected Mughal, still do of course. But it is hard to understand, someone that is very smart, clearly accepted and understood logic and reason, but has now rejected it. I do understand to some degree, regarding testimonies and what they have stated regarding the internal struggle with the deep ties to beliefs.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:34 pm
by Mughal
frankie wrote:Mugal.

These are only a few verses from the quran as a sample to show importance of consistent logical thinking. People who do not learn sense to make proper sense of things are categorised as worse than animals by the quran.



What happened to Allah’s “logical thinking” here?

Allah tells you something which is not true; he makes a biological error by claiming "sexual fluid" comes from between the backbone of a man, and the ribs of a woman.

Quran 86.6-7
6. He is created from a drop emitted-

7. Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs:

http://quranx.com/Tafsirs/86.6


The “sexual fluid “of a man is produced in the testes, found in the genital area, not the backbone of a man.
The “sexual fluid “of a woman, is formed within the vagina, during sexual intercourse, and plays no part in reproduction, it is there only for lubrication.

What does play a part in reproduction in a woman is the ovum, which is formed in the ovaries, found on each side of the lower abdomen, nowhere near the chest/ribs.

Allah got this wrong, making Allah fallible, meaning Allah cannot be God, as no God worthy of the name would make such fundamental errors about his own creation.

However many hoops you want to jump through, your own “holy” book condemns itself not to come from any creator, but from the minds of fallible men, who did not know any different to what was known at the time of their writing, allegedly 7th century Arabia.


Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi - Tafhim al-Qur'an

"Sulb" is the backbone and "tara'ib"the breast- bones, i.e. the ribs. Since the procreative fluid in both man and woman is discharged from that part of the body which is between the back and the breast, it is said that man has been created from the fluid issuing out froth between the back and the breast.”



Ibn Kathir Tafsir:

"Allah says,
فَلْيَنظُرِ الإِنسَـنُ مِمَّ خُلِقَ
(So, let man see from what he is created!) This is alerting man to the weakness of his origin from which he was created. The intent of it is to guide man to accept (the reality of) the Hereafter, because whoever is able to begin the creation then he is also able to repeat it in the same way. This is as Allah says,
وَهُوَ الَّذِى يَبْدَأُ الْخَلْقَ ثُمَّ يُعِيدُهُ وَهُوَ أَهْوَنُ عَلَيْهِ
(And He it is Who originates the creation, then He will repeat it; and this is easier for Him.) (30:27) Then Allah says,
خُلِقَ مِن مَّآءٍ دَافِقٍ
(He is created from a water gushing forth.) meaning, the sexual fluid that comes out bursting forth from the man and the woman. Thus, the child is produced from both of them by the permission of Allah. Due to this Allah says,
يَخْرُجُ مِن بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَآئِبِ
(Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.) meaning, the backbone (or loins) of the man and the ribs of the woman, which is referring to her chest. Shabib bin Bishr reported from `Ikrimah who narrated from Ibn `Abbas that he said,
يَخْرُجُ مِن بَيْنِ الصُّلْبِ وَالتَّرَآئِبِ
(Proceeding from between the backbone and the ribs.) "The backbone of the man and the ribs of the woman. It (the fluid) is yellow and fine in texture. The child will not be born except from both of them (i.e., their sexual fluids).''



Dear frankie, please learn how to study the quran so that you could realise what wrong you are doing and how to put it right. The problem with our human knowledge is, it is patchy not perfect. Knowledge of God is perfect ie complete. This being the case God has set a standard for us to reach. For example, morals when we look at them from God's point of view they never change and cannot change and do not need to change because they are already perfect as a standard. However we human beings are born babies without knowing a things and grow from babies and so from our points of views morals change with time because our understanding keeps changing with time and new developments and progress in our knowledge of things. This is why what we think is right one day we think it is not right the next day. God has created us for learning things and changing with increase in our knowledge. Not to sit an cry last night things were this way and now they are this way so we are not going to accept this change.

Our understanding of message of God also depends fully 100% upon our knowledge about real world realities so as our views change about real word realities so does our understanding of word of God. There is neither anything wrong with the quran nor anything wrong with our thinking and doing things because this is the way things are set by God to work for his own purpose according to his own plan regardless we like it or not this is the reality. This is why as our knowledge increases with time we can keep on reinterpreting the quran just like our ancestors did. I have already explained the fact that words used in the quran have many meanings so the chosen meanings depend upon the context of words and verses etc. This is why if anyone claims the quran is wrong, he is not right but if one says so and so interpreted the quran wrong that is acceptable if that is truly the case and alternative interpretation fits the context. We need to think purposefully logically consistently to understand things properly by having an over all picture of something in our minds.

regards and all he best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 11:06 am
by frankie
Mughal
I have already explained the fact that words used in the quran have many meanings so the chosen meanings depend upon the context of words and verses etc. This is why if anyone claims the quran is wrong, he is not right but if one says so and so interpreted the quran wrong that is acceptable if that is truly the case and alternative interpretation fits the context.


Muslims have the tafsir to clarify/explain all Quranic surahs, and the respective tafsirs of surahs 86.6-7 tell Muslims something which is not true, which should not be the case if Allah was the author of them.

“Sexual fluid “from the man does not “proceed “from between his back bone.

There is no “sexual fluid” from the woman which takes a direct part in human reproduction.

The Quran is a compilation of everything familiar within pre Islamic pagan Arabia, including man made errors like this one, together with a man said to be the prophet of Islam who was of product of this time.
Mohammed used “religion” as his cover to raid people’s properties, kill those who fought to save their lives, and enslaved the remaining women and children as prized booty for himself and his raiding troops. These are acts of war.

Mohammed put Muslims at war with non Muslims, the hadiths give the evidence, and Muslim scholarship confirms it, by using the Quran and hadiths to prove it.

It is benighted people like you who are perpetuating this eternal warfare, because you are so blinded by this obvious falsehood.

Using the excuse “Mullahs are wrong”, is not good enough, Muslim scholarship has determined what becomes part of the Sharia by compiling a manual of Islamic jurisprudence which all Muslims read to understand their faith.

Your” interpretation” is therefore meaningless and rendered totally void.

Reliance of the Traveller:
[Section o9.0, page 599]
"Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word "mujahada", signifying warfare to establish the religion. And it is the lesser jihad. As for the greater jihad, it is spiritual warfare against the lower self, (nafs), which is why the Prophet said as he was returning from jihad, "We have returned from the lesser jihad to the greater jihad."
o9.0 JIHAD
(O: Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word mujahada, signifying warfare to establish the religion…
The scriptural basis for jihad, prior to scholarly consensus is such Koranic verses as:
(1) “Fighting is prescribed for you” (Koran 2:216);
(2) “Slay them wherever you find them” (Koran 4:89);
(3) “Fight the idolators utterly” (Koran 9:36);
and such hadiths as the one related by Bukhari and Muslim that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said:
“I have been commanded to fight people until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and perform the prayer, and pay zakat. If they say it, they have saved their blood and possessions from me, except for the rights of Islam over them. And their final reckoning is with Allah”;
and the hadith reported by Muslim,
Sahih Muslim Volume 4, Book 52, Number 50:
“To go forth in the morning or evening to fight in the path of Allah is better than the whole world and everything in it.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly

PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 1:14 pm
by Fernando
Mughal wrote:These are only a few verses from the quran as a sample to show importance of consistent logical thinking.
You couldn't make it up! (Except that Mohammed clearly did.)

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 12:17 pm
by frankie
Mughal

Come back and explain why you are defending an ideology which puts Muslims at war with the world.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 3:27 pm
by pr126
Mughal has said it so many times that Islam is benign, - if we understand it just right, - that he believes it himself.

But it is only wishful thinking.
Denial.
Self-delusion.
Obsession.

Dare I say it, a serious mental illness.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Mar 15, 2018 6:28 pm
by Hombre
The logic to which our friend Mughal uses simply demonstrates the twisted way of thinking & thought process in which Muslims are taught to conceive and perceive about Islam.

While in other major religions, you ask first - then you chose to accept or reject, the opposite is true with Islam. First, you accept - ask (if you dare) later.

Once you have accepted anything & everything in Islam - therefore the Quran itself, you are then prohibited from asking - moreover question any passage in Quran - regardless the degree of illogic and convoluted it may be. A classic case of brainwash & cult formation

This is the frame of mind and logic which we are witnessing with Mughal.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:34 am
by Mughal
frankie wrote:Mughal
I have already explained the fact that words used in the quran have many meanings so the chosen meanings depend upon the context of words and verses etc. This is why if anyone claims the quran is wrong, he is not right but if one says so and so interpreted the quran wrong that is acceptable if that is truly the case and alternative interpretation fits the context.


Muslims have the tafsir to clarify/explain all Quranic surahs, and the respective tafsirs of surahs 86.6-7 tell Muslims something which is not true, which should not be the case if Allah was the author of them.

“Sexual fluid “from the man does not “proceed “from between his back bone.

There is no “sexual fluid” from the woman which takes a direct part in human reproduction.

The Quran is a compilation of everything familiar within pre Islamic pagan Arabia, including man made errors like this one, together with a man said to be the prophet of Islam who was of product of this time.
Mohammed used “religion” as his cover to raid people’s properties, kill those who fought to save their lives, and enslaved the remaining women and children as prized booty for himself and his raiding troops. These are acts of war.

Mohammed put Muslims at war with non Muslims, the hadiths give the evidence, and Muslim scholarship confirms it, by using the Quran and hadiths to prove it.

It is benighted people like you who are perpetuating this eternal warfare, because you are so blinded by this obvious falsehood.

Using the excuse “Mullahs are wrong”, is not good enough, Muslim scholarship has determined what becomes part of the Sharia by compiling a manual of Islamic jurisprudence which all Muslims read to understand their faith.

Your” interpretation” is therefore meaningless and rendered totally void.

Reliance of the Traveller:
[Section o9.0, page 599]
"Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word "mujahada", signifying warfare to establish the religion. And it is the lesser jihad. As for the greater jihad, it is spiritual warfare against the lower self, (nafs), which is why the Prophet said as he was returning from jihad, "We have returned from the lesser jihad to the greater jihad."
o9.0 JIHAD
(O: Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word mujahada, signifying warfare to establish the religion…
The scriptural basis for jihad, prior to scholarly consensus is such Koranic verses as:
(1) “Fighting is prescribed for you” (Koran 2:216);
(2) “Slay them wherever you find them” (Koran 4:89);
(3) “Fight the idolators utterly” (Koran 9:36);
and such hadiths as the one related by Bukhari and Muslim that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said:
“I have been commanded to fight people until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and perform the prayer, and pay zakat. If they say it, they have saved their blood and possessions from me, except for the rights of Islam over them. And their final reckoning is with Allah”;
and the hadith reported by Muslim,
Sahih Muslim Volume 4, Book 52, Number 50:
“To go forth in the morning or evening to fight in the path of Allah is better than the whole world and everything in it.


Dear frankie, you need to learn the way for understanding the quran which works and not the way people tell you which clearly does not work. All tafaseer of the quran are full of mistakes and no one says they are not. It is because they are thoughts and opinions of their authors. I have explained very clearly why the quran alone is foundation of deen of islam, not quran and hadis or quran and sunnah in my post in another thread so you should read it there. This is why your stance that tafseer says this or hadis says this is not valid if it goes against the quran. The main reason is the quran was known widely by masses but reports were individual collections which were not well known in comparison to the quran. This is explained by collectors of hadith reports themselves. The thing people need to realise is this, the quran is consistent within itself and with respect to self evident facts. It is the best possible explanation of things about this world people are looking for but due to ignoring the quran they remain confused both about this world as well as the quran.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly

PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:36 am
by Mughal
Fernando wrote:
Mughal wrote:These are only a few verses from the quran as a sample to show importance of consistent logical thinking.
You couldn't make it up! (Except that Mohammed clearly did.)


Sorry dear fernando, I did not get your point. Please clarify.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:13 am
by Mughal
frankie wrote:Mughal

Come back and explain why you are defending an ideology which puts Muslims at war with the world.


Dear frankie, did I ever claim the quran or deen of islam is not about struggle or fight or war? All I have done is explained the context. Jihaad is main part of deen of islam which means making effort. Effort for what? To try to know the message of God properly then teach it to others properly. This should unite people into a proper human community or a muslim ummah which should then bring about a kingdom based upon guidance of Allah in order for people to work as a team to ensure well being of mankind with full help and support of each other. What is wrong with that? Do you not want to see people living as a proper human community helping each other ensure well being of each other?

The problem is with all people who do not want to learn and do things they ought to be learning and doing.You or I cannot force people to do so therefore they will continue learning and doing what they have been learning and doing and they will continue facing the consequences of their own wrong thoughts and actions. All we can do is keep drawing attention of people to message of God. May be one day penny will drop and people will come to see light after they have had enough of what they are doing to each other. For the time being these people think they can force each other into submission so let them continue as it seem right to them for themselves. The quran does not teach senseless or needless bloodshed as you claim. It is a book for education based revolution.

If you want to know why people are fighting with each other then best thing is to find out. Muslims are not the only ones who are at it others are also causing huge loss of life needlessly. West is particularly at fault because people here knew better than third world countries. You cannot put sense into minds of people by destroying their infrastructures on willy nilly grounds. By sending people into stone age and keeping them there you will be silly to expect anything better of them. All people throughout time and places when they had power they have been doing the same to the rest of humanity. All because they lived by way of life based upon personal gains at the expense of each other. A clear proof people have been paying lip service to God and did what they wanted.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 2:39 pm
by frankie
Mughal

you need to learn the way for understanding the quran which works and not the way people tell you which clearly does not work.



I use Islamic sources to understand the Quran, the same sources all Muslims use to understand their faith, the question is, what makes your understanding of the Quran right, and these sources wrong?

What sources do you use to “learn the way for understanding the quran”

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:16 pm
by Mughal
frankie wrote:Mughal

you need to learn the way for understanding the quran which works and not the way people tell you which clearly does not work.



I use Islamic sources to understand the Quran, the same sources all Muslims use to understand their faith, the question is, what makes your understanding of the Quran right, and these sources wrong?

What sources do you use to “learn the way for understanding the quran”


Dear frankie let me try and explain an issue on basis of the quran in light of real world realities then you can tell me which explanation makes better sense ie the mullah based or mine?

My view is jinns are human beings. They can do to each other what they like good or bad and they can lead each other right or wrong. Words used in the quran are misinterpreted by mullahs due to their lack of knowledge about real world realities. For example, people assume various powers for jinns and that jinns can possess human beings and human being can also possess jinns etc etc. Jinns can travel from one end of the world to the other in no time at all. If all this is assumed true then we can expect a lot of strange things happening all around us. Jinns are said to be like human beings ie having families and need living necessities. They also must be fighting with each other just like people throwing things about and using weapons etc.

If we leave our human kids in a room and things for them to play with and go away for a while then when we come back and see kids they usually have turned the room upside down. Think of same thing about jinn kids and jinns. Will we not see things flying about all the time without anyone visible moving them about? If we put something on a table in a room and leave it undisturbed when we come back it is still there unless something naturally happens which disturbs things eg earthquake etc.

If jinns were freely running about like people here and there then we will not see anything remaining in its place. If jinns were in possessions of people they could then empty the banks through jinns or steal weapons of enemies or spy for them. They could pick lottery numbers for people and likewise there is no end to these kinds of things happening. Not only that but also what science has told us today we will have known that centuries back because jinns will have told us what is going on in this universe.

Likewise holly men or saints etc are attributed so many powers and in that case same will be expected of them. But we do not see any such acts by jinns or people which are expected of them if they are what we are told they are and do what we are told they are capable of doing.

People will be able to predict a lot of things precisely because jinns etc will tell them what to do and when to do or how to do and then those jijns will do those things themselves eg a jinn tells someone lottery numbers and then goes in the place where such numbers are chosen or decided and pick the ones he has already predicted. This is why I think all claims about jinns and their powers are false and for some reasons people have misinterpreted the quranic text just to justify their ignorance based whims.

The quran was not revealed to be read in isolation instead it was revealed to be understood properly in light of real world realities. What does that mean? It means words used in the quran must be learned with their applications. If I say cup or chair it should mean something to my mind as to what it relates to or how or why. In other words we must learn words used in the quran as well as their detailed applications. If we have not discovered applications of a word then mere use of word is not going to mean anything to us.

To discover applications of a word we will have to go through a process to see how it can fit with other words. If we do not go through this process of learning then we will get stuck as to actual meanings of words in their contexts. For example, if I asked a person to define word jinn for me one may not be able to because one may never have thought about it as to what it is used for. It is not just word jinn the same is true about any word about which we never think in detail but use it anyway and have some imaginary idea about it due to the way people around us use it from whom we pick up our human language.

Word jinn in the quranic context is not used for other than a human being but the quran categorises human beings for various reasons eg a human being is called bashar by the quran but why? Likewise a human being is called insaan by the quran, why. It calls a human being rajul, why? It calls a human being imrah, why? It calls a human being mushrik, why? It calls a human being kaafir, why? It calls a human being shaitaan, why? It calls a human malak, why? It calls a human being muslim, why? All we need to do is think about why we call a person milkman or shopkeeper or engineer or doctor etc etc.

Hopefully this should be sufficient to draw attention of people to meanings of words and the reasons behind those meanings. People need to realise why certain words have certain meanings. Once they realise that then they will start thinking why word jinn is used for human beings as well as other words. Just because something is identified differently from something else for some reason does not mean it is a different kind of thing in all respects. A mushrik or kaafir is as human as a muslim. The quran tells the final messenger of God say, I am as human as you are but that God reveals his messages to me. Here a human being is called a nabi or rasool from God. So we can see the quran has a reason for calling anyone anything. Likewise the quran is not calling people jinns just for sake of it instead there has to be a reason for that.

It is now up to us human beings to discover that reason from the quran itself. Not only reason for use of word jinn but any other word as well. If we do not get that reason right behind use of a word in the quran then our understanding of the quranic text will not be right as it is supposed to be.

Before we could get the reason right behind use of a word in the quran we will have to learn different meanings of the word because without that we will have no idea how to fit the word in context in its place of use. It is because it is not necessary that a word will always be used with same meaning throughout a piece of text or book. Our problem increases in case of the quran because it is word of God not word of a human beings. We know words of each other to some degree because we interact with each other on daily basis but we do not interact with God like that so we need to discover a mechanism whereby we got words and their meanings.

Now the question is what is meaning of word jinn? In arabic language many words could be used for expressing same meaning and same word could be used for thousands of meanings. This makes it very difficult for us to interpret the text of the quran correctly but there is help in form of purpose of the text ie why the quiran was revealed. The purpose for which the quran was revealed helps us to contextualise the quran. Now we can choose only those meanings of words from a whole lot of them which fit the context and fulfil the purpose of revelation of the quran.

The quran tells us Allah sent messengers and they were all human beings as well as men ie they were all rijaal=men as well as bashar=men of flesh and blood. They were sent to annaas as well as aljinn and they were from among them.

If we put these verses together the result is they were human beings but for some reason they were called annaas and aljinn. This means we need to know meanings of words jinn and naas. Why some human beings are called naas is because they want to mix with other human beings or want to get on with others or do not want to be strangers or foreigners or unfamiliar for others or do not want to distant themselves from others or stay aloof from others etc etc. Other human beings are called jinns because they do not want to mix with other human beings so they are in a way distanced from others as if they are strangers or foreigners for other human beings ie they think they do not belong to the crowd of humanity but are born to rule them. Word jinn has many meanings besides these such as experts in a field, ruling elite, influential human beings eg chiefs or leaders or rulers or people living away from cities ie nomads or gypsies etc. People living in mountains or valleys or who come from other cities etc etc. Big people or giants or people with power or authority or influence etc etc.

See verses 2/124,213, 3/33, 4/1, 6/83-87,128, 7/10-27,69-71,158,179,189, 15/26-48, 16/43, 17/37,93, 18/50, 21/7-8, 38/10, 40/26,37,56, 41/6, 46/29, 51/56, 55/33, 64/5-6, 72/-,

In the quranic context it is clear all prophets came from children of adam, noah, abraham etc. They were not jinns but bashars ie human beings.

In 18/50 shaitan is said to be jinn ie those who separate or move away from other people. All people like that are called children of shaitan just like party of God and party of shaitan or children of adam and children of shaitan or iblis etc.

In 2/30-39. The story is not about adam and his wife but adam and his party or company of people. God sent him message to establish kingdom of God on basis of what was revealed to him. They all submitted to work for the God assigned cause but not iblis and his party they moved away and created troubles for them. This is what the story of adam and his children is in 5/27. A group of people decides to live for each other and the other group which decides to live for themselves on the backs of the rest ie people who sucked blood of others. So God accepts the way of life of those who live according to his guidance and rejects the way of life of those who oppose it. So in the quranic context people are mainly categorised into three main groups a)who wish to live by guidance of Allah and b)those who clearly reject it and c)yet others who are in between two groups for various reasons explained in the quran.

Word shaitan means a human being who wishes to dominate others by undermining them ie who wishes to take over rest of mankind as their ruler or master. This is what ruling elite has been doing ever since. This is why deen of islam remains the very same ever since.

At the moment I do not have time to go into needed details of things but this should help people study the quran for themselves rather than following nonsense found in books of tafaseer whereby the quran itself is misinterpreted and misrepresented by mullahs due to their lack of logically consistent thinking.

This should also make clear why people raise nonsense objections against the quran. It is because they read mistranslations of the text of the quran by mullahs and those who have mistranslated the quran due to following mullahs nonsense.

They created a lot of nonsense about shaitan and jinns which when looked at in light of real world realities becomes very obvious. It shows mullahs have been creating make beliefs and then they have been twisting words used in the quran and hadith to suit their make beliefs which turned deen of islam in to a joke that everyone is laughing at worldwide. This is why people should not pass on nonsense of mullahs as message of the quran or deen of islam otherwise days are not far when whole world is going to get such people who have been spreading lies against God for centuries.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 6:51 pm
by Hombre
Mughal wrote:Dear frankie, you need to learn the way for understanding the quran which works and not the way people tell you which clearly does not work. All tafaseer of the quran are full of mistakes and no one says they are not. It is because they are thoughts and opinions of their authors..
Arn't you one of the same authors? yes, you are. By writing a whole book on the Quran with your own thoughts, opinions & interpretations - indeed you are one of them.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 7:02 pm
by Hombre
Mughal wrote:Dear frankie let me try and explain an issue on basis of the quran in light of real world realities then you can tell me which explanation makes better sense ie the mullah based or mine?

My view is jinns are human beings. They can do to each other what they like good or bad and they can lead each other right or wrong. Words used in the quran are misinterpreted by mullahs due to their lack of knowledge about real world realities. For example, people assume various powers for jinns and that jinns can possess human beings and human being can also possess jinns etc etc. Jinns can travel from one end of the world to the other in no time at all. If all this is assumed true then we can expect a lot of strange things happening all around us. Jinns are said to be like human beings ie having families and need living necessities. They also must be fighting with each other just like people throwing things about and using weapons etc.

If we leave our human kids in a room and things for them to play with and go away for a while then when we come back and see kids they usually have turned the room upside down. Think of same thing about jinn kids and jinns. Will we not see things flying about all the time without anyone visible moving them about? If we put something on a table in a room and leave it undisturbed when we come back it is still there unless something naturally happens which disturbs things eg earthquake etc.

If jinns were freely running about like people here and there then we will not see anything remaining in its place. If jinns were in possessions of people they could then empty the banks through jinns or steal weapons of enemies or spy for them. They could pick lottery numbers for people and likewise there is no end to these kinds of things happening. Not only that but also what science has told us today we will have known that centuries back because jinns will have told us what is going on in this universe.

Likewise holly men or saints etc are attributed so many powers and in that case same will be expected of them. But we do not see any such acts by jinns or people which are expected of them if they are what we are told they are and do what we are told they are capable of doing.

People will be able to predict a lot of things precisely because jinns etc will tell them what to do and when to do or how to do and then those jijns will do those things themselves eg a jinn tells someone lottery numbers and then goes in the place where such numbers are chosen or decided and pick the ones he has already predicted. This is why I think all claims about jinns and their powers are false and for some reasons people have misinterpreted the quranic text just to justify their ignorance based whims.

The quran was not revealed to be read in isolation instead it was revealed to be understood properly in light of real world realities. What does that mean? It means words used in the quran must be learned with their applications. If I say cup or chair it should mean something to my mind as to what it relates to or how or why. In other words we must learn words used in the quran as well as their detailed applications. If we have not discovered applications of a word then mere use of word is not going to mean anything to us.

To discover applications of a word we will have to go through a process to see how it can fit with other words. If we do not go through this process of learning then we will get stuck as to actual meanings of words in their contexts. For example, if I asked a person to define word jinn for me one may not be able to because one may never have thought about it as to what it is used for. It is not just word jinn the same is true about any word about which we never think in detail but use it anyway and have some imaginary idea about it due to the way people around us use it from whom we pick up our human language.

Word jinn in the quranic context is not used for other than a human being but the quran categorises human beings for various reasons eg a human being is called bashar by the quran but why? Likewise a human being is called insaan by the quran, why. It calls a human being rajul, why? It calls a human being imrah, why? It calls a human being mushrik, why? It calls a human being kaafir, why? It calls a human being shaitaan, why? It calls a human malak, why? It calls a human being muslim, why? All we need to do is think about why we call a person milkman or shopkeeper or engineer or doctor etc etc.

Hopefully this should be sufficient to draw attention of people to meanings of words and the reasons behind those meanings. People need to realise why certain words have certain meanings. Once they realise that then they will start thinking why word jinn is used for human beings as well as other words. Just because something is identified differently from something else for some reason does not mean it is a different kind of thing in all respects. A mushrik or kaafir is as human as a muslim. The quran tells the final messenger of God say, I am as human as you are but that God reveals his messages to me. Here a human being is called a nabi or rasool from God. So we can see the quran has a reason for calling anyone anything. Likewise the quran is not calling people jinns just for sake of it instead there has to be a reason for that.

It is now up to us human beings to discover that reason from the quran itself. Not only reason for use of word jinn but any other word as well. If we do not get that reason right behind use of a word in the quran then our understanding of the quranic text will not be right as it is supposed to be.

Before we could get the reason right behind use of a word in the quran we will have to learn different meanings of the word because without that we will have no idea how to fit the word in context in its place of use. It is because it is not necessary that a word will always be used with same meaning throughout a piece of text or book. Our problem increases in case of the quran because it is word of God not word of a human beings. We know words of each other to some degree because we interact with each other on daily basis but we do not interact with God like that so we need to discover a mechanism whereby we got words and their meanings.

Now the question is what is meaning of word jinn? In arabic language many words could be used for expressing same meaning and same word could be used for thousands of meanings. This makes it very difficult for us to interpret the text of the quran correctly but there is help in form of purpose of the text ie why the quiran was revealed. The purpose for which the quran was revealed helps us to contextualise the quran. Now we can choose only those meanings of words from a whole lot of them which fit the context and fulfil the purpose of revelation of the quran.

The quran tells us Allah sent messengers and they were all human beings as well as men ie they were all rijaal=men as well as bashar=men of flesh and blood. They were sent to annaas as well as aljinn and they were from among them.

If we put these verses together the result is they were human beings but for some reason they were called annaas and aljinn. This means we need to know meanings of words jinn and naas. Why some human beings are called naas is because they want to mix with other human beings or want to get on with others or do not want to be strangers or foreigners or unfamiliar for others or do not want to distant themselves from others or stay aloof from others etc etc. Other human beings are called jinns because they do not want to mix with other human beings so they are in a way distanced from others as if they are strangers or foreigners for other human beings ie they think they do not belong to the crowd of humanity but are born to rule them. Word jinn has many meanings besides these such as experts in a field, ruling elite, influential human beings eg chiefs or leaders or rulers or people living away from cities ie nomads or gypsies etc. People living in mountains or valleys or who come from other cities etc etc. Big people or giants or people with power or authority or influence etc etc.

See verses 2/124,213, 3/33, 4/1, 6/83-87,128, 7/10-27,69-71,158,179,189, 15/26-48, 16/43, 17/37,93, 18/50, 21/7-8, 38/10, 40/26,37,56, 41/6, 46/29, 51/56, 55/33, 64/5-6, 72/-,

In the quranic context it is clear all prophets came from children of adam, noah, abraham etc. They were not jinns but bashars ie human beings.

In 18/50 shaitan is said to be jinn ie those who separate or move away from other people. All people like that are called children of shaitan just like party of God and party of shaitan or children of adam and children of shaitan or iblis etc.

In 2/30-39. The story is not about adam and his wife but adam and his party or company of people. God sent him message to establish kingdom of God on basis of what was revealed to him. They all submitted to work for the God assigned cause but not iblis and his party they moved away and created troubles for them. This is what the story of adam and his children is in 5/27. A group of people decides to live for each other and the other group which decides to live for themselves on the backs of the rest ie people who sucked blood of others. So God accepts the way of life of those who live according to his guidance and rejects the way of life of those who oppose it. So in the quranic context people are mainly categorised into three main groups a)who wish to live by guidance of Allah and b)those who clearly reject it and c)yet others who are in between two groups for various reasons explained in the quran.

Word shaitan means a human being who wishes to dominate others by undermining them ie who wishes to take over rest of mankind as their ruler or master. This is what ruling elite has been doing ever since. This is why deen of islam remains the very same ever since.

At the moment I do not have time to go into needed details of things but this should help people study the quran for themselves rather than following nonsense found in books of tafaseer whereby the quran itself is misinterpreted and misrepresented by mullahs due to their lack of logically consistent thinking.

This should also make clear why people raise nonsense objections against the quran. It is because they read mistranslations of the text of the quran by mullahs and those who have mistranslated the quran due to following mullahs nonsense.

They created a lot of nonsense about shaitan and jinns which when looked at in light of real world realities becomes very obvious. It shows mullahs have been creating make beliefs and then they have been twisting words used in the quran and hadith to suit their make beliefs which turned deen of islam in to a joke that everyone is laughing at worldwide. This is why people should not pass on nonsense of mullahs as message of the quran or deen of islam otherwise days are not far when whole world is going to get such people who have been spreading lies against God for centuries.

regards and all the best.
In Arabic they say "ta-kh-less" ("get stright to the point", or "cut through the chase").
The core question is? - what make you more knowladagbe or smarter then those imams & Mullahs who spend their lifetime memorizing and studying the Quran. On one hand you claim the Quran is the "perfect Document" - yet by the fact yourself re-inerprate the meaning each sura - you just currpted it w/o even realze it.

Why the world, do you think YOUR interpretation of the Quran is the correct one and others are wrong.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:01 pm
by frankie
Mughal

Your lengthy, complicated explanation replying to my simple question, gives concern for the state of your mental health, your fixation on "jinns"can only be described as unhealthy, and is as equally disturbing.

It is more than obvious that Islam has a tendency to turn the Muslim mind into what I could only describe as " a computer on crack" ramblings which go no where fast, together with a comprehension that even Einstein would find baffling.

The same can be said for this other FF contributor Mohammedluq93 who displays the same kind of behaviour, with their extensive "Reconciling Adam and Eve with evolution "topic.

I am afraid further discussion with you can only be futile, when you are not even willing to discuss the behaviour of the man who allegedly understood the Quran the best, and put it into action the way Allah intended, the man who is the Muslims role model in all things Islamic,whose life is exemplary for all time.

If he did not get the Quran right, then what hope is there for the likes of you?

Instead,there is only silence when questions are put to you about Mohammed, but you are quite willing to fill a full page when discussing a book said to be "clear and easy to understand "which you then try your utmost to contradict by telling us:

Before we could get the reason right behind use of a word in the quran we will have to learn different meanings of the word because without that we will have no idea how to fit the word in context in its place of use



It is suggested you take yourself on a long holiday, and give your mind a rest from your objective of trying to make sense of this alleged "clear and understandable" book, because you are proving it's not working, and by all accounts it never will.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2018 11:41 pm
by Hombre
frankie,
It is shame that intelligent & articulate man like Mughal wastes his intellect & time on a book to which modern science finds its content filled with little intellectual accreditation - let alone make a discernable sense

mughal and other well-meaning Muslims think that, by "spraying" you with high minded lofty words & concepts, they drag them into the vast space of ignorance with claims "Quran is way too sophisticated for average people to comprehend - yet it is very simple to understand.

which is which? we have yet get a straight (and short) answers from our friend mughal.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly

PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2018 11:22 am
by Fernando
Mughal wrote:
Fernando wrote:
Mughal wrote:These are only a few verses from the quran as a sample to show importance of consistent logical thinking.
You couldn't make it up! (Except that Mohammed clearly did.)


Sorry dear fernando, I did not get your point. Please clarify.

regards and all the best.
Sorry, Mughal, for lapsing into the vernacular: "You couldn't make it up!" is said when something is ridiculously impossible or contractictory. I said it because of your claim that the Koran is consistent and logical. See https://www.faithfreedom.org/Articles/SKM/contradictions.htm
I then corrected my rash claim, because it clearly is possible to make up such a thing, since Mohammed (or at least he and his aides and successors) did indeed make up the Koran.