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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 9:28 pm
by Hombre
sum wrote:Is the muslim world acting any differently to the muslims in the time of Muhammad? It would appear that they are and so they are true muslims acting as Islam dictates.

sum
It demonstrates that, unlike other major religions who undergone transformation - Islam is still stuck in vast darkness of the 7th century.

The most irony is, we have decent and well educated Muslims, who come here and proudly declare "Not a single character has changed in Islam's guiding book" - therefore Islam itself.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 11:58 pm
by Mughal
Dear friends, it is high time we human beings accepted islam as a deen and not as a mazhab. It is because in the proper quranic context islam is all about the purpose of creation ie why God created this universe and mankind in it. Why he gave people limited choice and his revelation. What is revelation of God about and why it is the way it is. Once a person realises importance of these like points only then there is a chance that a person may see what the quran is saying and why.

The quran is simply put a manifesto ie a program for God set goals for mankind to accomplish according to his provided guidelines for a constitution and laws in order to set up or organise humanity into a proper human community on that basis and to regulate by laws based upon it so that mankind fulfil the God given program. This is worship of God in the context of the quranic text not what mullahs and priests preach in mosques or synagogues, churches, mandirs and gurudawaaras or temples etc. Deen of islam is not at all about what people who claim to be muslims are saying and doing or for that matter what nonmuslims are saying and doing.

The quran is basically all about bringing about a kingdom based upon guidance of Allah for ensuring blissful, dignified and secure existence of mankind themselves. This is why there is no need for changing the text of the quran or its message but it does need people who have brains and sense to make proper sense of it and and follow it faithfully so that God's purpose for creation of humanity and sending his revelations for it become fulfilled. So all people need to do is, learn sense to make proper sense of things then with help of that sense make proper sense of the quran and then do as it says and reap the results or benefits or advantages it promises.

It is not the quran or deen of islam that needs any changing in its text because it is from God and it proves it so by bring perfect for its purpose. What needs to change is humanity in its mindset, attitude and behaviour and it is changing as time goes on through interacting with each other be it by forcing each other towards the right path bit by bit instead of educating itself by bringing about an education based revolution. We are happy with bringing about bloody revolutions but not education based revolution that is really needed.

Ask yourselves, why aren't we human beings building a lot of schools, colleges and universities? What or who is stopping us and why? There is no shortage of human beings on this planet, is there? There are a lot of people who are literate in our world, why are they not doing enough to help others become literate who are illiterate? There are plenty of educated people in our world in various fields of knowledge, why are they not helping others to become educated like them? There are a lot of highly trained and skilful people in many fields, why are they not busy trying to train others who are untrained? Are we being stopped by the quran and deen of islam?

Why have we adopted divisive social, political and economic ideologies? Why are we not adopting an ideology for unity, peace, progress and prosperity for humanity? Is it not because we are ignorant fools with biases and prejudices against each other which therefore forced us to invent and adopt ideologies, systems, structure, procedures and practices that suit our own tastes. Then why blame God or his revelation for our own foolishness and stupidity?

If we want God to have his way then we have no choice but to give up our self made self interest based ideologies and practices. Otherwise if we ourselves do not want to live as a proper human community under rule of law of God then let us keep going and keep facing the dire consequences that have been made clear to us by God in his message. God has given us choice to live our lives his way or our own ways and we have chosen to live our lives own ways and we are never tired of blaming God for it. Is that any solution for our self created problems? Is there any solace in all this for us that we must continue living the very same ways that we have been that have led us to kind of life that we are complaining about?If not and we still want to regardless then how right are we in saying anything about God? Are we at all to blame for anything at all? Does blaming God for all that is wrong with our world makes all ok? If not then we are looking at things in a very wrong way so we better look for a way that makes better sense but that we will only come to know if we ourselves have sense to make proper sense of things.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:44 am
by Hombre
Yes indeed Dear friends. To understand the holy scriptures of the Quran - as our friend Mughal present, and its real deep meaning for humanities - one needs to read the sources from which Holy quran derives its divinity.

The Hebrew Bible in it original language

בראשית פרק א
בְּרֵאשִׁית, בָּרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֵת הַשָּׁמַיִם, וְאֵת הָאָרֶץ. ב וְהָאָרֶץ, הָיְתָה תֹהוּ וָבֹהוּ, וְחֹשֶׁךְ, עַל-פְּנֵי תְהוֹם; וְרוּחַ אֱלֹהִים, מְרַחֶפֶת עַל-פְּנֵי הַמָּיִם. ג וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, יְהִי אוֹר; וַיְהִי-אוֹר. ד וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים אֶת-הָאוֹר, כִּי-טוֹב; וַיַּבְדֵּל אֱלֹהִים, בֵּין הָאוֹר וּבֵין הַחֹשֶׁךְ. ה וַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לָאוֹר יוֹם, וְלַחֹשֶׁךְ קָרָא לָיְלָה; וַיְהִי-עֶרֶב וַיְהִי-בֹקֶר, יוֹם אֶחָד. {פ}
ו וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, יְהִי רָקִיעַ בְּתוֹךְ הַמָּיִם, וִיהִי מַבְדִּיל, בֵּין מַיִם לָמָיִם. ז וַיַּעַשׂ אֱלֹהִים, אֶת-הָרָקִיעַ, וַיַּבְדֵּל בֵּין הַמַּיִם אֲשֶׁר מִתַּחַת לָרָקִיעַ, וּבֵין הַמַּיִם אֲשֶׁר מֵעַל לָרָקִיעַ; וַיְהִי-כֵן. ח וַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לָרָקִיעַ, שָׁמָיִם; וַיְהִי-עֶרֶב וַיְהִי-בֹקֶר, יוֹם שֵׁנִי. {פ}
ט וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, יִקָּווּ הַמַּיִם מִתַּחַת הַשָּׁמַיִם אֶל-מָקוֹם אֶחָד, וְתֵרָאֶה, הַיַּבָּשָׁה; וַיְהִי-כֵן. י וַיִּקְרָא אֱלֹהִים לַיַּבָּשָׁה אֶרֶץ, וּלְמִקְוֵה הַמַּיִם קָרָא יַמִּים; וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים, כִּי-טוֹב. יא וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, תַּדְשֵׁא הָאָרֶץ דֶּשֶׁא עֵשֶׂב מַזְרִיעַ זֶרַע, עֵץ פְּרִי עֹשֶׂה פְּרִי לְמִינוֹ, אֲשֶׁר זַרְעוֹ-בוֹ עַל-הָאָרֶץ; וַיְהִי-כֵן. ייב וַתּוֹצֵא הָאָרֶץ דֶּשֶׁא עֵשֶׂב מַזְרִיעַ זֶרַע, לְמִינֵהוּ, וְעֵץ עֹשֶׂה-פְּרִי אֲשֶׁר זַרְעוֹ-בוֹ, לְמִינֵהוּ; וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים, כִּי-טוֹב. יג וַיְהִי-עֶרֶב וַיְהִי-בֹקֶר, יוֹם שְׁלִישִׁי. {פ}
יד וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, יְהִי מְאֹרֹת בִּרְקִיעַ הַשָּׁמַיִם, לְהַבְדִּיל, בֵּין הַיּוֹם וּבֵין הַלָּיְלָה; וְהָיוּ לְאֹתֹת וּלְמוֹעֲדִים, וּלְיָמִים וְשָׁנִים. טו וְהָיוּ לִמְאוֹרֹת בִּרְקִיעַ הַשָּׁמַיִם, לְהָאִיר עַל-הָאָרֶץ; וַיְהִי-כֵן. טז וַיַּעַשׂ אֱלֹהִים, אֶת-שְׁנֵי הַמְּאֹרֹת הַגְּדֹלִים: אֶת-הַמָּאוֹר הַגָּדֹל, לְמֶמְשֶׁלֶת הַיּוֹם, וְאֶת-הַמָּאוֹר הַקָּטֹן לְמֶמְשֶׁלֶת הַלַּיְלָה, וְאֵת הַכּוֹכָבִים. יז וַיִּתֵּן אֹתָם אֱלֹהִים, בִּרְקִיעַ הַשָּׁמָיִם, לְהָאִיר, עַל-הָאָרֶץ. יח וְלִמְשֹׁל, בַּיּוֹם וּבַלַּיְלָה, וּלְהַבְדִּיל, בֵּין הָאוֹר וּבֵין הַחֹשֶׁךְ; וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים, כִּי-טוֹב. יט וַיְהִי-עֶרֶב וַיְהִי-בֹקֶר, יוֹם רְבִיעִי. {פ}
כ וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים--יִשְׁרְצוּ הַמַּיִם, שֶׁרֶץ נֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה; וְעוֹף יְעוֹפֵף עַל-הָאָרֶץ, עַל-פְּנֵי רְקִיעַ הַשָּׁמָיִם. כא וַיִּבְרָא אֱלֹהִים, אֶת-הַתַּנִּינִם הַגְּדֹלִים; וְאֵת כָּל-נֶפֶשׁ הַחַיָּה הָרֹמֶשֶׂת אֲשֶׁר שָׁרְצוּ הַמַּיִם לְמִינֵהֶם, וְאֵת כָּל-עוֹף כָּנָף לְמִינֵהוּ, וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים, כִּי-טוֹב. כב וַיְבָרֶךְ אֹתָם אֱלֹהִים, לֵאמֹר: פְּרוּ וּרְבוּ, וּמִלְאוּ אֶת-הַמַּיִם בַּיַּמִּים, וְהָעוֹף, יִרֶב בָּאָרֶץ. כג וַיְהִי-עֶרֶב וַיְהִי-בֹקֶר, יוֹם חֲמִישִׁי. {פ}
כד וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, תּוֹצֵא הָאָרֶץ נֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה לְמִינָהּ, בְּהֵמָה וָרֶמֶשׂ וְחַיְתוֹ-אֶרֶץ, לְמִינָהּ; וַיְהִי-כֵן. כה וַיַּעַשׂ אֱלֹהִים אֶת-חַיַּת הָאָרֶץ לְמִינָהּ, וְאֶת-הַבְּהֵמָה לְמִינָהּ, וְאֵת כָּל-רֶמֶשׂ הָאֲדָמָה, לְמִינֵהוּ; וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים, כִּי-טוֹב. כו וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, נַעֲשֶׂה אָדָם בְּצַלְמֵנוּ כִּדְמוּתֵנוּ; וְיִרְדּוּ בִדְגַת הַיָּם וּבְעוֹף הַשָּׁמַיִם, וּבַבְּהֵמָה וּבְכָל-הָאָרֶץ, וּבְכָל-הָרֶמֶשׂ, הָרֹמֵשׂ עַל-הָאָרֶץ. כז וַיִּבְרָא אֱלֹהִים אֶת-הָאָדָם בְּצַלְמוֹ, בְּצֶלֶם אֱלֹהִים בָּרָא אֹתוֹ: זָכָר וּנְקֵבָה, בָּרָא אֹתָם. כח וַיְבָרֶךְ אֹתָם, אֱלֹהִים, וַיֹּאמֶר לָהֶם אֱלֹהִים פְּרוּ וּרְבוּ וּמִלְאוּ אֶת-הָאָרֶץ, וְכִבְשֻׁהָ; וּרְדוּ בִּדְגַת הַיָּם, וּבְעוֹף הַשָּׁמַיִם, וּבְכָל-חַיָּה, הָרֹמֶשֶׂת עַל-הָאָרֶץ. כט וַיֹּאמֶר אֱלֹהִים, הִנֵּה נָתַתִּי לָכֶם אֶת-כָּל-עֵשֶׂב זֹרֵעַ זֶרַע אֲשֶׁר עַל-פְּנֵי כָל-הָאָרֶץ, וְאֶת-כָּל-הָעֵץ אֲשֶׁר-בּוֹ פְרִי-עֵץ, זֹרֵעַ זָרַע: לָכֶם יִהְיֶה, לְאָכְלָה. ל וּלְכָל-חַיַּת הָאָרֶץ וּלְכָל-עוֹף הַשָּׁמַיִם וּלְכֹל רוֹמֵשׂ עַל-הָאָרֶץ, אֲשֶׁר-בּוֹ נֶפֶשׁ חַיָּה, אֶת-כָּל-יֶרֶק עֵשֶׂב, לְאָכְלָה; וַיְהִי-כֵן. לא וַיַּרְא אֱלֹהִים אֶת-כָּל-אֲשֶׁר עָשָׂה, וְהִנֵּה-טוֹב מְאֹד; וַיְהִי-עֶרֶב וַיְהִי-בֹקֶר, יוֹם הַשִּׁשִּׁי.

And this:

New Testament

Genesis
Chapter 1

1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

6 And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

8 And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so.

10 And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good.

11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so.

12 And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

13 And the evening and the morning were the third day.

14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:

15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.

16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.

17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,

18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.

19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.

20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth.

23 And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.

24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:26 am
by Mughal

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:27 am
by frankie
Mughal:

Mohammed Ali was not a true Muslim,he did not follow the ways and example of his prophet, he did not advocate and condone hatred towards the Jews, he did not use violence to promote Islam, he did not raid properties kill people and take women and children as sexual conquests, he did not demand extortion money for Islamic rule to be obeyed under duress.

Like all Muslims you are in complete denial of the truth of your faith, which is based on violence towards anyone who does not accept Allah as the only god, with Mohammed as its prophet, until you do, your faith will continue on its death and destruction course, were all Non Muslims are viewed as enemies of Islam and its people and are cursed by the Islamic god Allah. Ibn Kathir 5.51.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir on 5.51.
Allah forbids His believing servants from having Jews and Christians as friends, because they are the enemies of Islam and its people, may Allah curse them. Allah then states that they are friends of each other and He gives a warning threat to those who do this

Examples of your false prophets ways and example which eternally legitimise terrorism in the name of your false god Allah:


Then the Messenger of Allah commanded that ditches should be dug, so they were dug in the earth, and they were brought tied by their shoulders, and were beheaded. There were between seven hundred and eight hundred of them. The children who had not yet reached adolescence and the women were taken prisoner, and their wealth was seized.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir - The Campaign against Banu Qurayzah

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

Sahih Muslim Book 19 no 4292
Ibn 'Aun reported:
I wrote to Nafi' inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before meeting them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi' said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops.


Tabari 9: 82
The Messenger sent Khalid with an army of 400 to Harith [a South Arabian tribe] and ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them.”

Sahih Muslim: Book 019, Number 4294:
It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say:Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). [/b]If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands.[b] If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:56 am
by frankie
Mughal:

Mohammed Ali was not a true Muslim,he did not follow the ways and example of his prophet, he did not advocate and condone hatred towards the Jews, he did not use violence to promote Islam, he did not raid properties kill people and take women and children as sexual conquests, he did not demand extortion money for Islamic rule to be obeyed under duress.

Like all Muslims you are in complete denial of the truth of your faith, which is based on violence towards anyone who does not accept Allah as the only god, with Mohammed as its prophet, until you do, your faith will continue on its death and destruction course, were all Non Muslims are viewed as enemies of Islam and its people and are cursed by the Islamic god Allah. Ibn Kathir 5.51.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir on 5.51.
Allah forbids His believing servants from having Jews and Christians as friends, because they are the enemies of Islam and its people, may Allah curse them. Allah then states that they are friends of each other and He gives a warning threat to those who do this

Examples of your false prophets ways and example which eternally legitimise terrorism in the name of your false god Allah:


Then the Messenger of Allah commanded that ditches should be dug, so they were dug in the earth, and they were brought tied by their shoulders, and were beheaded. There were between seven hundred and eight hundred of them. The children who had not yet reached adolescence and the women were taken prisoner, and their wealth was seized.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir - The Campaign against Banu Qurayzah

Sahih Al Bukhari
Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

Sahih Muslim Book 19 no 4292
Ibn 'Aun reported:
I wrote to Nafi' inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before meeting them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi' said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops.


Tabari 9: 82
The Messenger sent Khalid with an army of 400 to Harith [a South Arabian tribe] and ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them.”

Sahih Muslim: Book 019, Number 4294:
It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say:Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). [/b]If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands.[b] If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:21 pm
by Mughal
frankie wrote:Mughal:

Mohammed Ali was not a true Muslim,he did not follow the ways and example of his prophet, he did not advocate and condone hatred towards the Jews, he did not use violence to promote Islam, he did not raid properties kill people and take women and children as sexual conquests, he did not demand extortion money for Islamic rule to be obeyed under duress.

Like all Muslims you are in complete denial of the truth of your faith, which is based on violence towards anyone who does not accept Allah as the only god, with Mohammed as its prophet, until you do, your faith will continue on its death and destruction course, were all Non Muslims are viewed as enemies of Islam and its people and are cursed by the Islamic god Allah. Ibn Kathir 5.51.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir on 5.51.
Allah forbids His believing servants from having Jews and Christians as friends, because they are the enemies of Islam and its people, may Allah curse them. Allah then states that they are friends of each other and He gives a warning threat to those who do this

Examples of your false prophets ways and example which eternally legitimise terrorism in the name of your false god Allah:


Then the Messenger of Allah commanded that ditches should be dug, so they were dug in the earth, and they were brought tied by their shoulders, and were beheaded. There were between seven hundred and eight hundred of them. The children who had not yet reached adolescence and the women were taken prisoner, and their wealth was seized.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir - The Campaign against Banu Qurayzah

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

Sahih Muslim Book 19 no 4292
Ibn 'Aun reported:
I wrote to Nafi' inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before meeting them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi' said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops.


Tabari 9: 82
The Messenger sent Khalid with an army of 400 to Harith [a South Arabian tribe] and ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them.”

Sahih Muslim: Book 019, Number 4294:
It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say:Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). [/b]If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands.[b] If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them.


Dear frankie, the quran sets the standard as book from God for people of this era. It does not follow human set standards instead human beings are suppose to develop themselves and evolve to meet the standard set by the quran. Till people meet that standard they will keep on making troubles for each other and act and react to each other as they have been always for their own reasons. Even today we are all acting and reacting to each other and not many people are bothered with actual study of the message in the quran. Those who do look into the quran most of them only look into it to justify their their own whims and fancies just like people here on this website. So quran does not matter for a huge majority of humanity that is why the world is where we have brought it through our ignorance based arrogance. So blaming God or his revelations or his messengers is not the way forward. The way forward is to see where we ourselves are gone off the right track for finding out and knowing the truth in this regard.

I have given many examples as regard what people have turned the message of the quran into. Look at what people believe in as God, look into their concepts about purpose of life and likewise the goes on the list of their make beliefs and rituals they have adopted out of nowhere. God never said worship me or ask me for favours or flatter me with all sorts of pampas praises or look for salvation in hereafter etc etc. He never told people there exist supernatural powerful beings like angels and demons etc etc. These are invented by people themselves and therefore they have misinterpreted and misrepresented messages of God to justify their own desires or foolishness and stupidity.

Nowhere the quran says Allah gave any supernatural powers to any of his messengers because they serve no real purpose at all. So if people can say and do all sort of things against God in the very name of God and his book then how can we blindly accept what they attribute to messengers of God? This is why I explained in detail which accounts are acceptable and why and which are not and why not. Till you try and understand the point I am, you therefore cannot come out of your confusion as I see it. This is why in my view it is very important to understand the message of the quran within itself in light of real world realities and once we have worked out the message in its own proper context then and only then we can take it as a criterion for judging all other sources of information. The wrong you are doing is trying to interpret the quran through its subordinate sources and then using them against the quran. Such a rule makes no sense at all. It was never accepted by any scholars of the quran muslim or nonmuslim.

People who wish to learn or discuss the quran or deen of islam properly cannot go to secondary sources first and then though them go to the quran because this way the secondary sources become basis for the whole thing and in that case what will be the need for having the quiran? You see by doing so one become trapped in the trap of one's own making because that turns the whole thing into a mess and confusion and that is what rulers and moneys lenders and mulalhs wanted so they have it. People can continue supporting such people and carry on suffering for as long as they do not wake up and see where they have come off the right track. This is why there is no point in me responding to people if they cannot even understand that much of this fundamental point. This is why the quran must be discussed first and then on that basis other sources like hadees or fiqh or seerah or history etc. Now when we discuss the quran, it is very important for us to discover or decode the message of the quran before we could say anything about it for definite. This is why I myself started studying the text of the quran in detail to find out what it may be about and after years of pondering over the text of the quran I began to see the real message the quran is trying to put before us. This is why I am busy trying to put that message which is in my head on the paper so that one day it could see light of the day as my contribution towards well being of mankind. For the time being people can carry on saying and doing things as they see fit and keep facing the consequences for their harmful and destructive thoughts and actions against each other. May be that is the only way for the time being whereby they can force each other to see sense, be it just a little bit in very small steps and doses.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 12:50 pm
by frankie
Mughal wrote:
frankie wrote:Mughal:

Mohammed Ali was not a true Muslim,he did not follow the ways and example of his prophet, he did not advocate and condone hatred towards the Jews, he did not use violence to promote Islam, he did not raid properties kill people and take women and children as sexual conquests, he did not demand extortion money for Islamic rule to be obeyed under duress.

Like all Muslims you are in complete denial of the truth of your faith, which is based on violence towards anyone who does not accept Allah as the only god, with Mohammed as its prophet, until you do, your faith will continue on its death and destruction course, were all Non Muslims are viewed as enemies of Islam and its people and are cursed by the Islamic god Allah. Ibn Kathir 5.51.

Tafsir Ibn Kathir on 5.51.
Allah forbids His believing servants from having Jews and Christians as friends, because they are the enemies of Islam and its people, may Allah curse them. Allah then states that they are friends of each other and He gives a warning threat to those who do this

Examples of your false prophets ways and example which eternally legitimise terrorism in the name of your false god Allah:


Then the Messenger of Allah commanded that ditches should be dug, so they were dug in the earth, and they were brought tied by their shoulders, and were beheaded. There were between seven hundred and eight hundred of them. The children who had not yet reached adolescence and the women were taken prisoner, and their wealth was seized.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir - The Campaign against Banu Qurayzah

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).

Sahih Muslim Book 19 no 4292
Ibn 'Aun reported:
I wrote to Nafi' inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before meeting them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi' said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops.


Tabari 9: 82
The Messenger sent Khalid with an army of 400 to Harith [a South Arabian tribe] and ordered him to invite them to Islam for three days before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them.”

Sahih Muslim: Book 019, Number 4294:
It has been reported from Sulaiman b. Buraid through his father that when the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him to fear Allah and to be good to the Muslims who were with him. He would say:Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war, do not embezzle the spoils; do not break your pledge; and do not mutilate (the dead) bodies; do not kill the children. When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them. Then invite them to migrate from their lands to the land of Muhairs and inform them that, if they do so, they shall have all the privileges and obligations of the Muhajirs. If they refuse to migrate, tell them that they will have the status of Bedouin Muilims and will be subjected to the Commands of Allah like other Muslims, but they will not get any share from the spoils of war or Fai' except when they actually fight with the Muslims (against the disbelievers). [/b]If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands.[b] If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them.


Dear frankie, the quran sets the standard as book from God for people of this era. It does not follow human set standards instead human beings are suppose to develop themselves and evolve to meet the standard set by the quran. Till people meet that standard they will keep on making troubles for each other and act and react to each other as they have been always for their own reasons. Even today we are all acting and reacting to each other and not many people are bothered with actual study of the message in the quran. Those who do look into the quran most of them only look into it to justify their their own whims and fancies just like people here on this website. So quran does not matter for a huge majority of humanity that is why the world is where we have brought it through our ignorance based arrogance. So blaming God or his revelations or his messengers is not the way forward. The way forward is to see where we ourselves are gone off the right track for finding out and knowing the truth in this regard.

I have given many examples as regard what people have turned the message of the quran into. Look at what people believe in as God, look into their concepts about purpose of life and likewise the goes on the list of their make beliefs and rituals they have adopted out of nowhere. God never said worship me or ask me for favours or flatter me with all sorts of pampas praises or look for salvation in hereafter etc etc. He never told people there exist supernatural powerful beings like angels and demons etc etc. These are invented by people themselves and therefore they have misinterpreted and misrepresented messages of God to justify their own desires or foolishness and stupidity.

Nowhere the quran says Allah gave any supernatural powers to any of his messengers because they serve no real purpose at all. So if people can say and do all sort of things against God in the very name of God and his book then how can we blindly accept what they attribute to messengers of God? This is why I explained in detail which accounts are acceptable and why and which are not and why not. Till you try and understand the point I am, you therefore cannot come out of your confusion as I see it. This is why in my view it is very important to understand the message of the quran within itself in light of real world realities and once we have worked out the message in its own proper context then and only then we can take it as a criterion for judging all other sources of information. The wrong you are doing is trying to interpret the quran through its subordinate sources and then using them against the quran. Such a rule makes no sense at all. It was never accepted by any scholars of the quran muslim or nonmuslim.

People who wish to learn or discuss the quran or deen of islam properly cannot go to secondary sources first and then though them go to the quran because this way the secondary sources become basis for the whole thing and in that case what will be the need for having the quiran? You see by doing so one become trapped in the trap of one's own making because that turns the whole thing into a mess and confusion and that is what rulers and moneys lenders and mulalhs wanted so they have it. People can continue supporting such people and carry on suffering for as long as they do not wake up and see where they have come off the right track. This is why there is no point in me responding to people if they cannot even understand that much of this fundamental point. This is why the quran must be discussed first and then on that basis other sources like hadees or fiqh or seerah or history etc. Now when we discuss the quran, it is very important for us to discover or decode the message of the quran before we could say anything about it for definite. This is why I myself started studying the text of the quran in detail to find out what it may be about and after years of pondering over the text of the quran I began to see the real message the quran is trying to put before us. This is why I am busy trying to put that message which is in my head on the paper so that one day it could see light of the day as my contribution towards well being of mankind. For the time being people can carry on saying and doing things as they see fit and keep facing the consequences for their harmful and destructive thoughts and actions against each other. May be that is the only way for the time being whereby they can force each other to see sense, be it just a little bit in very small steps and doses.

regards and all the best.



Mughal:

The Quran tells Muslims to look to Mohammed as their "best pattern of conduct" for all time.

Based on this fact, did Mohammed obey Allah when he raided caravans, killed those who resisted, stole their pocessions, and took the women and children as sexual conquests?

The answer you must give is yes, he did obey Allah, which in turn gives Muslims full authority do exactly the same, for all time.

Killing, looting and taking sexual captives does not form part of true religion, it is based on a wordly,man made view, where people are divided into either enemies or "friends"

This is the basis of the Islamic faith,infidels,i.e.those who do not accept the Islamic god Allah are viewed as enemies, who should be violently subjugated until they submit.

Terrorism in the name of the Islamic god forms the basis of the Islamic faith, its prophet was a terrorist for his god, which makes all subsequent follows, terrorists for their god.

If you cannot see this, you are as deluded as your prophet.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:23 pm
by Hombre
Mughal,
Could you please tell me, which denominations in Islam do you believe?.

From your writing, you seem to belong to either Ahmadiyyah or Suffi. Both believe in peaceful coexistence with others.


which one?

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:03 am
by Mughal
frankie wrote:Mughal:

The Quran tells Muslims to look to Mohammed as their "best pattern of conduct" for all time.

Based on this fact, did Mohammed obey Allah when he raided caravans, killed those who resisted, stole their pocessions, and took the women and children as sexual conquests?

The answer you must give is yes, he did obey Allah, which in turn gives Muslims full authority do exactly the same, for all time.

Killing, looting and taking sexual captives does not form part of true religion, it is based on a wordly,man made view, where people are divided into either enemies or "friends"

This is the basis of the Islamic faith,infidels,i.e.those who do not accept the Islamic god Allah are viewed as enemies, who should be violently subjugated until they submit.

Terrorism in the name of the Islamic god forms the basis of the Islamic faith, its prophet was a terrorist for his god, which makes all subsequent follows, terrorists for their god.

If you cannot see this, you are as deluded as your prophet.


Dear frankie, no body who is true to the message of the quran looks up to anyone because deen of islam is not a personality cult. All are bound by God to live by his book be they messengers of Allah or people who support their God assigned mission. See in the quran 3/79. The quran objects to jews and christians and for that matter to others for taking their rabbis and priests as Gods 3/64. You cannot equate any nonsense with deen of islam. People who live by way of personality cults cannot think any other way as they do not learn sense to make proper sense of things otherwise they will not be following personalities but goals and guidelines or rules or rule of law. This is why only and only abiding by rule of law is considered living by guidance of Allah or woship of Allah in deen of islam. Almost all muslims accept islam as a deen but due to their ignorance because of lack of education they follow laws made by mullahs on behest of rulers and money lenders and they cannot differentiate between the two.

In deen of islam all people are bound to live by laws of Allah not each other. I have explained already that in deen of islam none is allowed to rule anyone, it is haraam or shirk or polytheism. No man is allowed to be ruler or master of anyone. All because all have only and only one rightful ruler ie Allah. This is why none can blame deen of islam or quran or Allah or messenger of Allah for ignorance and stupidity of people. Those who are busy doing that are only showing their own foolishness and stupidity be they muslims or nonmuslims. If the quran clearly tells people they should not be slaves of messengers of Allah then how can the quran be blamed for people enslaving each other? Poeple misinterpret words like ITIBAA and ITAAT. They think they mean to obey Allah and his messenger but that is not true. The quran tells people to live by rule of law of Allah for their own good. These words therefore mean to be consistent with Allah and his messenger both mentally and physically. It is a way of saying be on the same page as Allah advises then that will bring harmony between all ie Allah, his mesengers, his books, his people. Allah does things according to his book because that is his program for mankind which cannot become fulfilled if Allah told people one thing and did the opposite himself. Allah does not go back on his promises to mankind and that is what the quran tells us. This point is of utmost importance for people to realise or be aware of.

Failing to understand this concept has led to all sorts of problems that muslims and nonmuslims are having. As I have explained what imperial mullahs did with islam it should not be difficult to see why things are what they are. Imperial mullahs wanted to make people slaves of rulers and money lenders so they first put muhammad on a different level as a person than from rest of humanity and then attributed all sort of nonsense to him as a person and then using that they did the same for rulers and money lenders. This is how islam was changed among people ie it was turned into a personality cult around the person of the prophet. Till this personality worship of muhammad the messenger of Allah is stopped by people who claim to be muslims there is not going to be actual deen of islam anywhere and that suits rulers, money lenders and mullahs so that they could freely use less advantaged people abusively instead of living as a proper human community which the quran repeatedly advises. All sensible people need to do is connect the dots and see what comes up and very clearly no if and buts.

The quran is therefore misinterpreted and misrepresented by mullahs because they are stooges of rulers and money lenders. Mullaism is the way whereby rulers and money lenders are making fools of general public and that is how by that magic they have created a divided and fractured human society. The quran is all about ending these divides but through educational revolution not by bloody revolutions which ignorant people bring about once divides get much wider and unbearable to redress balance of power after a long period of time. This will not have happened had people bothered to understand the quran properly and followed it faithfully as the messenger of Allah himself did along with his supporters. Humanity is very lucky that we still have the original text of the quran as it was revealed and the words and their meanings are also still intact so all an educate person need to do is sit with the quran and see how words used in the quran fit with each other like a set of beads of the same necklace. I know this because I am the one going through this exercise myself. This is why I do not buy nonsense by muslims or nonmuslims. Those who are educated and sincere to themselves will try their best to find out the truth and they can the way I explain it very clearly. People who want to confuse themselves and each other they can carry on as usual and see if what they are doing leads to anything better. For as long as people will have that mindset, attitude and behaviour towards the quran things will remain the same as they are or will keep getting worse as the quran says. Ultimately mankind are bound to see sense before it is too late but by that time a lot of people will have gone down under needlessly, thanks to mankind themselves.

This is why I do not accept the charge that muhammad was a cult leader and needlessly violent etc. If you look at flag of pakistan it has a crescent and a star on it. They symbolise light of guidance and use of power according to guidance ie the quran is supposed to decide when muslims should go to war if they ever have to do so. The quran tells people to follow the goal of bringing about a complementary human society but if people do not then people have no choice but to keep on fighting each other for trying to survive. The question is why the quran suggests complementary human society instead of equality? Because Allah did not created people equal ie some are advantaged more than others so the more advantaged are told to take care of the less advantaged. Therefore one cannot be right in saying, we are giving equal opportunities to people because people are not equal eg some are normal others are limited in their capacities or capabilities naturally. You cannot put a baby against a grown up. Likewise you cannot put an able bodied person against a person who is disabled to compete against each other as rivals for something. In a naturally unequal world you cannot be right in preaching equality because in that case you need to make people complement and support each other not play rivalry for survival or the result or outcome cannot be any different than the one we are seeing with our own eyes and are complaining about. So if we want a human community we could all be proud if then that is impossible without understanding the quranic text properly and following it faithfully. This is what the quran's surah like challenge is all about ie none can ever come up with a program for God set goals for mankind to accomplish according to his guidelines. So long as people do not and they do not accept the quran either as guide or leader then human world cannot be anything other than what it is and there is no point in ignorant and foolish people putting all the blame on God, his message and his messengers without having any clue what the message of God is all about.

Allah wants people to take care of each other to the best of their God given abilities because they are all naturally a single family or a brotherhood of humanity then why not be a brotherhood or family by way of a uniting ideology instead of fighting each other like senseless thugs? So the message in the quran is very different from what ignorant muslims and nonmuslims say. The quran puts before people a very different system of just world. This is why no sensible person who has studied the quran properly can accept that messengers of Allah waged wars on people for ruling them. That will be totally and utterly against the very ideology of the quran. Instead the quran explains why people wage wars against each other and how they can put a stop to wars between themselves. The quran calls them wars for domination over each other that is why it forbids open aggression by anyone but if that is what human beings want instead of accepting advise of their creator and sustainer then all have the level playing field ie do as like to each other if you do not want to learn and do what is advised.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 6:47 am
by Mughal
Hombre wrote:Mughal,
Could you please tell me, which denominations in Islam do you believe?.

From your writing, you seem to belong to either Ahmadiyyah or Suffi. Both believe in peaceful coexistence with others.


which one?


Dear Hombre, deen of islam is not a set of make beliefs and rituals which are bound to take people in different directions because each person sets direction for oneself in that case and therefore people end up in different sects. People who say we are muslims are also divided just like nonmuslims because there is no difference between their make beliefs they follow. If you label a bottle of poison as orange juice, it does not become orange juice just because it is labelled so. The same is true about deen of islam that in truth what is sold as deen of islam is not deen of islam but its alternative that was created by imperial mullahs for their own reasons as I have explained in detail already.

It is not possible for people to create sects in deen of islam, why not? Because deen of islam is not a mazhab or religion instead it has fixed goals and guidelines for those who wish to work for them. So you either accept the goals and guidelines and work for them or you do not and there is no in between.

There is no human being on the face of the earth who could challenge the quranic teachings provided one has learned sense of making proper sense of things and applies that to the quran faithfully to make proper sense of it to see if it is really from God or not. My work on the quran will free educated people from influence of mullahs and priests throughout the world because I am giving people the main idea how to get words and their meanings right on an unchallengable rational basis. Once people come to know what words mean and why for definite then the only challenge that remains for educated individuals is to figure out the message from the book directly. I am also working on that but it will take me years to complete my work on the quran.

So no I do not belong to any sect but to general human population that is interested in finding the truth about God. My so far study has shown that the quran is the only book worth real study for any one but people can do their own studies of other scriptures and then compare their results with results of my work and reach their own conclusions for themselves. It will take time and perhaps I will not be around to see the outcome but I am confident that I will be proven right as time marches on. It is because I am standing upon a solid foundation and I know it for sure because of my logical consistency. I am not a follower of make beliefs and useless rituals in the name of God. God is far above being a petty narrow minded thug or tyrant. He had a definite purpose for creating this world as the quran explains clearly so people will have to understand that purpose and then do their best to fulfill it so that God and human beings are all pleased with themselves and each other ie they are all going to end up consistent with each other and in harmony through and through. If you take the torah for real then why not study it like I am studying the quran and put it up for all to see which one of them is truly book of God and why or for that matter why not?

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 9:02 am
by pr126
Hello Mughal,
Here is an excerpt from a book I am reading now by Peter Townsend "Nothing to do with Islam".

The second scenario is related to the previous one. I call it the development of “personal Islam”. This is where individual Muslims in the West become very uncomfortable with aspects of classical Islamic teaching and propose to reform them to be more in line with the Western emphasis on individual human rights. Many of them then proceed to push this new version of Islam (essentially their own “personal Islam”) as the true understanding of what the faith should be. This is often done through online activism, which is why this phenomenon is sometimes known as “Cyber Islam” 15. The problem with this approach should immediately be apparent. The individuals working away at trying to convince others that their own idiosyncratic interpretations of Islam are indeed the correct ones are really just that –individuals. Unless, and until, they can manage to convince mosque authorities, Islamic institutions of higher education or legal authorities within the major Islamic legal schools to adopt their perspectives, they really only speak for themselves. As such, they represent only an infinitesimally small minority of Muslims through their promotion of positions that are fundamentally at odds with centuries of Islamic teaching and that would be rejected by the vast majority of religious authorities in the Muslim world. •

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 9:22 am
by Mughal

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:15 am
by Mughal
pr126 wrote:Hello Mughal,
Here is an excerpt from a book I am reading now by Peter Townsend "Nothing to do with Islam".

The second scenario is related to the previous one. I call it the development of “personal Islam”. This is where individual Muslims in the West become very uncomfortable with aspects of classical Islamic teaching and propose to reform them to be more in line with the Western emphasis on individual human rights. Many of them then proceed to push this new version of Islam (essentially their own “personal Islam”) as the true understanding of what the faith should be. This is often done through online activism, which is why this phenomenon is sometimes known as “Cyber Islam” 15. The problem with this approach should immediately be apparent. The individuals working away at trying to convince others that their own idiosyncratic interpretations of Islam are indeed the correct ones are really just that –individuals. Unless, and until, they can manage to convince mosque authorities, Islamic institutions of higher education or legal authorities within the major Islamic legal schools to adopt their perspectives, they really only speak for themselves. As such, they represent only an infinitesimally small minority of Muslims through their promotion of positions that are fundamentally at odds with centuries of Islamic teaching and that would be rejected by the vast majority of religious authorities in the Muslim world. •


Thanks for the quote dear pr and greetings. As I see things we can only think as individual once we are grown up both mentally and physically regardless whichever society we come from or belong to. Human minds are such things that question things when they are faced with certain realities which cannot be avoided. In case of islam and muslims things are not any different. So long as things keep going we are not bothered but as soon as they stop we wake up and start looking for what has happened and then we look for why this may have happened. If things go back to what they were then we go back to sleep but if there is such a problems that does not go away then people become agitated to find some kind of solution to the problem. Not everyone is successful in doing so but those who do are individuals from among the whole society not all people. However it takes time for ideas to get through to people who are meant to get them. No human society can remains stagnant for very long because otherwise it cannot survive. People have been doing whatever they thought they had to do.

When it comes to islam first of all people need to find out what is the difference between Islam being a deen or a mazhab. If islam is a mazhab then what does it mean and if it is a deen then what are its goals and guidelines and what is its program for fulfilling its goals and the action plan that goes with it.

Here is Why I think mullaism is not deen of islam because it is mazhab that is lablled deen of islam ie it is poison in bottle of orange juice.

1)It is because mullahs believe and promote it is ok for people to rule each other. This is why all countries whose people claim to be muslims are ruled by likewise muslim rulers who rule them just like nonmuslim countries. The quran and deen of islam condemn this so how can mullahs' islam be the true islam that we find in the actual text of the quran? It is because mullahs believe in man ruling man that is why they promote master slave relationship between people. This is why mullahs' islam promotes slavery of human beings when the quran was revealed to get people out of slavery of each other and set them free for living by the best rule of law. There is lot more wrong with idea of man ruling man but that needs a lot of time and writing which I cannot undertake just now. All this leads to divisions between people on basis of political power. So whoever proves more powerful becomes more abusive users of rest of humanity. So people who want this way of life then why are they complaining about it?

2)it Is because mullahs promote business for profit between mankind which is a mechanism for abusive use of each other to take undue advantage of each other by stealth. This leads to social divisions based upon economic set up or mechanisms so when disadvantaged complain against advantaged why they do so if they are happy to be part of this kind of system? Will they or do they not do to others who are less advantaged than them what others who are more advantaged than themselves are doing to them? You accept a way of life you should be ready to accept the consequences for it as well without complaining about it. In deen of islam all people and everything else belongs to Allah alone and no one owns anything at all so if one owns nothing then one has nothing to sell to anyone nor is there anyone who has anything of his own to pay for it to buy it from anyone. However people being a family are given right to benefit each other using all that Allah has provided for them for this purpose by managing it all properly as explained by Allah in the quran. So one can see in light of the quran which islam is the true deen of islam, the one in the quran or the one in books written by mullahs?

3)The quran condemns mullaism as an institution and warns people against it because mullaism is all about bringing about personality cults. Once people fall in that trap then they lose sight of reality and fall into make beliefs and ritualism in order to feel they are people of God and the rest of humanity is wicked. In personality cults a person is turned into an idol and people get busy with praising God and persons and forget about what they really need to do to better themselves which is the reason why Allah gave them brains and a world full of raw materials to show their creativity. This is how ignorance prevails and mankind lose the right path upon which they are born ie learning to be rational from the real world realities and keeping things real. This is how mullahs succeed in dividing mankind on many different basis along with money lenders and rulers. This is why humanity has become so divided on so many different levels.

4)Once divisions are created and promoted and they are thought to be ok then there is no end in sight for people committing atrocities against each other because they do not think they are doing anything wrong to each other because they are told by people whom they take for authority that all they are doing is fine and for good causes. This is why for so long as people will keep accepting living by these sets of foundations they cannot do much good for each other ie you cannot stay clean even if you wanted to in a pool full of dirt. So people who think they are doing a lot of charity works and contributing some of their income to such causes are doing the right things need to think about it deeply in wider context to see what the real problems are. One should be able to see that ways we have adopted to live our lives are the problem that even if we manage to take 10 people out of poverty we put another million into poverty by competing against each other through rivalries because that is the way of life we have adopted to live by. So we are fighting against the causes we are creating ourselves. This is why the quran says that whatever KUFAAR (ie those who do not accept living by way of life advised by Allah) do it comes to nothing at all because the end result does not change to ensuring well being of mankind. It is like you give someone something with one hand and take it back by the other.

5) Because mullahs had set agendas that is why they misinterpreted and misrepresented the message of the quran to suit those who backed them up in every way. In short mullahs are telling us God has allowed us to divide ourselves and remain divided because that is exactly where mullahs' islam leads. That is where humanity already was before getting revelations from God to sort itself out. See 2/213. Originally people were one family but as the human family grew in numbers and learn little sense they began to divide on basis of personal gains at the expense of each other so God sent them his books and messengers from among them to help them learn sense and become one ideologically as well but they ignored guidance of their creator sustainer. Since then people have been arguing over what is right and wrong and they continue and will continue till they start making proper sense of what God has told them right from the very beginning. Perhaps people will take yet longer to learn sense after yet more painful suffering by hands of each other. So it looks as though message of God has fallen on deaf ears so to speak.

6) Since mullahs believe and promote personal ownership of things therefore rule of man over man and slavery and what not. If we read the quran 2/132-133, it talks abut legacy of messengers of God. Allah tells us what was their legacy ie what Ibraheem told his biological and ideological children and what Yaqoob told his following. They did not bequeath any land or factories or properties or bank balances but deen of islam. Why? Because if people live sensibly then they can create all they need through God given brains, senses and bodies by using all those raw materials he has provided for them for this very purpose. However they could not and cannot create a way of life that could give them solid foundation to start from to be what they needed to be. In books written by mullahs God seems to be more interested in giving people shares of whatever their parents and relatives leave behind after they pass away. To write will is said to be duty upon a muslims before death. Can one see how mullahs have misinterpreted the legacy God has told us about in the quran?

Regardless let us suppose a person has £100 and 2 sons and he dies. According to mullahs they each will get £50. Now let us suppose these sons have children ie one son has only one son but the other 10 sons. Now one son's son will get £50 being the only son but the sons of the other son will get only £5 each. This will make one man much more richer than the rest of them. Could attributing such nonsense to God be right? Mullahs have done such things again and again and they feel no shame.

7)There is also well known divorce law according to mullahs. They say if a man says talaaq to his wife then divorce becomes effective right away. Not only that but if a man says talaaq, talaaq and talaaq three times then that is equal to three times divorcing one's wife. If a person marries a woman just once how can he divorce her three times is beyond me. I mean you cannot kill an already dead man twice let alone three times. There is no limit to mullahs foolishness or stupidity. This is why people need to stop taking mullahs seriously both muslims and nonmuslims unless they want to carry on living the way they have been.


It is due to such foundations of mazhab of islam I regretfully label mullahs ignorant fools. Allah talks about people who carry books but do not try to know properly what is written in them and he calls them donkeys with loads of books on their backs. He also tells us ulemaa or learned people are those who while siting or standing or lying down ponder over creation of Allah and they come to realisation that he did not create all this in vain ie people who are learned they are not stupid or donkeys like mullahs.

So people who claim to be muslims yet are not even bothered to know meaning of a word in the quran, how can we argue they are true followers of the message of God and its true representatives? Moreover how sensible are those who criticise the quran on basis of what mullahs or ignorant people say about it?

The whole world knows islam is all about bringing about and maintaining an ummah. One cannot unite people to be an ummah if all they are told to think and do is divisive. All this proves beyond a reasonable doubt mullahs are a hindrance to understanding the message of the quran properly. In fact the quran itself talks about people who stop people from knowing about and adopting the way of life advised by God. They are not just rulers and money lenders but mullahs as well. See 3/64, 9/31, 34 etc. The quran tells us, we are not suppose to be slaves even of messengers of God let alone anyone else 3/79. It tells us not to listen to our parents and grandparents if they have no sense because they will mislead us 2/170. What mullahs do is pave the way for mankind to be abused by most advantaged among them. They invent a way of life whereby more advantaged people could take away fruits of labour of those less advantaged than them.

So we all owe it to ourselves to find out the truth for ourselves and support it the best we can so that in time to come things start getting better rather than worse due to our confusions that we create in each other's minds.

regards and all the best

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 10:55 am
by Fernando
pr126 wrote:Hello Mughal,
Here is an excerpt from a book I am reading now by Peter Townsend "Nothing to do with Islam".

The second scenario is related to the previous one. I call it the development of “personal Islam”. This is where individual Muslims in the West become very uncomfortable with aspects of classical Islamic teaching and propose to reform them to be more in line with the Western emphasis on individual human rights. Many of them then proceed to push this new version of Islam (essentially their own “personal Islam”) as the true understanding of what the faith should be.
This, of course, is exactly what the likes of Cameron and Obama are doing too. They have even less chance of redefining Islam. Only a root and branch reconstruction will make Islam conform to the modern world.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 2:30 pm
by frankie
Mughal wrote:
frankie wrote:Mughal:

The Quran tells Muslims to look to Mohammed as their "best pattern of conduct" for all time.

Based on this fact, did Mohammed obey Allah when he raided caravans, killed those who resisted, stole their pocessions, and took the women and children as sexual conquests?

The answer you must give is yes, he did obey Allah, which in turn gives Muslims full authority do exactly the same, for all time.

Killing, looting and taking sexual captives does not form part of true religion, it is based on a wordly,man made view, where people are divided into either enemies or "friends"

This is the basis of the Islamic faith,infidels,i.e.those who do not accept the Islamic god Allah are viewed as enemies, who should be violently subjugated until they submit.

Terrorism in the name of the Islamic god forms the basis of the Islamic faith, its prophet was a terrorist for his god, which makes all subsequent follows, terrorists for their god.

If you cannot see this, you are as deluded as your prophet.


Dear frankie, no body who is true to the message of the quran looks up to anyone because deen of islam is not a personality cult. All are bound by God to live by his book be they messengers of Allah or people who support their God assigned mission. See in the quran 3/79. The quran objects to jews and christians and for that matter to others for taking their rabbis and priests as Gods 3/64. You cannot equate any nonsense with deen of islam. People who live by way of personality cults cannot think any other way as they do not learn sense to make proper sense of things otherwise they will not be following personalities but goals and guidelines or rules or rule of law. This is why only and only abiding by rule of law is considered living by guidance of Allah or woship of Allah in deen of islam. Almost all muslims accept islam as a deen but due to their ignorance because of lack of education they follow laws made by mullahs on behest of rulers and money lenders and they cannot differentiate between the two.

In deen of islam all people are bound to live by laws of Allah not each other. I have explained already that in deen of islam none is allowed to rule anyone, it is haraam or shirk or polytheism. No man is allowed to be ruler or master of anyone. All because all have only and only one rightful ruler ie Allah. This is why none can blame deen of islam or quran or Allah or messenger of Allah for ignorance and stupidity of people. Those who are busy doing that are only showing their own foolishness and stupidity be they muslims or nonmuslims. If the quran clearly tells people they should not be slaves of messengers of Allah then how can the quran be blamed for people enslaving each other? Poeple misinterpret words like ITIBAA and ITAAT. They think they mean to obey Allah and his messenger but that is not true. The quran tells people to live by rule of law of Allah for their own good. These words therefore mean to be consistent with Allah and his messenger both mentally and physically. It is a way of saying be on the same page as Allah advises then that will bring harmony between all ie Allah, his mesengers, his books, his people. Allah does things according to his book because that is his program for mankind which cannot become fulfilled if Allah told people one thing and did the opposite himself. Allah does not go back on his promises to mankind and that is what the quran tells us. This point is of utmost importance for people to realise or be aware of.

Failing to understand this concept has led to all sorts of problems that muslims and nonmuslims are having. As I have explained what imperial mullahs did with islam it should not be difficult to see why things are what they are. Imperial mullahs wanted to make people slaves of rulers and money lenders so they first put muhammad on a different level as a person than from rest of humanity and then attributed all sort of nonsense to him as a person and then using that they did the same for rulers and money lenders. This is how islam was changed among people ie it was turned into a personality cult around the person of the prophet. Till this personality worship of muhammad the messenger of Allah is stopped by people who claim to be muslims there is not going to be actual deen of islam anywhere and that suits rulers, money lenders and mullahs so that they could freely use less advantaged people abusively instead of living as a proper human community which the quran repeatedly advises. All sensible people need to do is connect the dots and see what comes up and very clearly no if and buts.

The quran is therefore misinterpreted and misrepresented by mullahs because they are stooges of rulers and money lenders. Mullaism is the way whereby rulers and money lenders are making fools of general public and that is how by that magic they have created a divided and fractured human society. The quran is all about ending these divides but through educational revolution not by bloody revolutions which ignorant people bring about once divides get much wider and unbearable to redress balance of power after a long period of time. This will not have happened had people bothered to understand the quran properly and followed it faithfully as the messenger of Allah himself did along with his supporters. Humanity is very lucky that we still have the original text of the quran as it was revealed and the words and their meanings are also still intact so all an educate person need to do is sit with the quran and see how words used in the quran fit with each other like a set of beads of the same necklace. I know this because I am the one going through this exercise myself. This is why I do not buy nonsense by muslims or nonmuslims. Those who are educated and sincere to themselves will try their best to find out the truth and they can the way I explain it very clearly. People who want to confuse themselves and each other they can carry on as usual and see if what they are doing leads to anything better. For as long as people will have that mindset, attitude and behaviour towards the quran things will remain the same as they are or will keep getting worse as the quran says. Ultimately mankind are bound to see sense before it is too late but by that time a lot of people will have gone down under needlessly, thanks to mankind themselves.

This is why I do not accept the charge that muhammad was a cult leader and needlessly violent etc. If you look at flag of pakistan it has a crescent and a star on it. They symbolise light of guidance and use of power according to guidance ie the quran is supposed to decide when muslims should go to war if they ever have to do so. The quran tells people to follow the goal of bringing about a complementary human society but if people do not then people have no choice but to keep on fighting each other for trying to survive. The question is why the quran suggests complementary human society instead of equality? Because Allah did not created people equal ie some are advantaged more than others so the more advantaged are told to take care of the less advantaged. Therefore one cannot be right in saying, we are giving equal opportunities to people because people are not equal eg some are normal others are limited in their capacities or capabilities naturally. You cannot put a baby against a grown up. Likewise you cannot put an able bodied person against a person who is disabled to compete against each other as rivals for something. In a naturally unequal world you cannot be right in preaching equality because in that case you need to make people complement and support each other not play rivalry for survival or the result or outcome cannot be any different than the one we are seeing with our own eyes and are complaining about. So if we want a human community we could all be proud if then that is impossible without understanding the quranic text properly and following it faithfully. This is what the quran's surah like challenge is all about ie none can ever come up with a program for God set goals for mankind to accomplish according to his guidelines. So long as people do not and they do not accept the quran either as guide or leader then human world cannot be anything other than what it is and there is no point in ignorant and foolish people putting all the blame on God, his message and his messengers without having any clue what the message of God is all about.

Allah wants people to take care of each other to the best of their God given abilities because they are all naturally a single family or a brotherhood of humanity then why not be a brotherhood or family by way of a uniting ideology instead of fighting each other like senseless thugs? So the message in the quran is very different from what ignorant muslims and nonmuslims say. The quran puts before people a very different system of just world. This is why no sensible person who has studied the quran properly can accept that messengers of Allah waged wars on people for ruling them. That will be totally and utterly against the very ideology of the quran. Instead the quran explains why people wage wars against each other and how they can put a stop to wars between themselves. The quran calls them wars for domination over each other that is why it forbids open aggression by anyone but if that is what human beings want instead of accepting advise of their creator and sustainer then all have the level playing field ie do as like to each other if you do not want to learn and do what is advised.

regards and all the best.


Mughal:
body who is true to the message of the quran looks up to anyone because deen of islam is not a personality cult.


Not according to the Quran, it tells Muslims to look to Mohammed to put Allah’s will into action correctly, and follow his example.

33:21 Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
http://islamawakened.com/quran/33/21/

Muslims can only follow the Quran correctly by following the ways and example of their prophet, who understood Allah the best and put the words of the Quran into action correctly enough for Allah to name him as their eternal role model in all things Islamic.

Without the ahadiths/Sunnah Muslims remain ignorant, and cannot practice their faith the way Allah intends. If you disagree then gives examples which substantiate your disagreement.

Given this fundamental fact, you have completely disregarded the hadiths presented to you which illustrate clearly how Muslims should perform their “deen” faithfully, by following Mohammed's example.

You have not given any evidence from either the Quran or Mohammed’s example to the contrary, to confirm anything you claim about the Quran.

Explain how Muslims are to carry out Allah’s commands from reading surahs like 9.29 and 9.111,and what exactly are these misguided Mullahs reading to get the message of the Quran so wrong.

Give examples from the Quran to show exactly which surah's are being misrepresented, by these Mullahs.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 7:58 pm
by Hombre
Mughal wrote:
Wonderful mughal. It demonstrate the confidence of Jews in Israel by allowing other religions - Islam in particular to express themselves with no pear. Wonderful voices.

Now it is the turn of the religion of peace to have some real dance in Mekkah.


Please call Sheikh Abdul Rahman al-Sudais who is the Grand Enchilada of Mekkah and ask him to invite these wonderful people to dance and sing around the Ka'abah.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:04 pm
by idesigner1
What kind of God or Allah talk in such a convoluted way, without any context ?It takes some once like Moghul to invent his own translation with which not one Islamic scholar in the world would agree.

Can't he communicate in a simple language or communicate with earthlings in their own language?

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 8:16 pm
by Hombre
mughal you write:
Dear Hombre, deen of islam is not a set of make beliefs and rituals which are bound to take people in different directions because each person sets direction for oneself in that case and therefore people end up in different sects.
Why it should be true only for Islam. Since Judea & Christianity have just as many religious sects, and denominations, your comments can be valid for these religions too.

Therefore, there is nothing unique or special in Islam - being the johnny-come-late religion, 3rd in line. It is plausible to establish the fact Islam just follows tenets of other religions before it, with no original tenet of its own. Do you really think that, if Islam would allow basic freedom of thought and expression for Muslims to ask hard questions about the religion, Islam would survive another generation?. I bet my camel it will not.

(By god, when are you going to see reality and the truth - beside what you have been taught?).

has humanity understood the quran properly

PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:50 pm
by AlexmenCorn
No, my friend, Islam has always been spread by the sword, and threatening their mind numbed minions with death for leaving or questioning Islam.