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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:27 am
by manfred
Dear passerby, that is the thing... neither the Qur'an nor the hadith teach anything peaceful. in fact the opposite is true.

Mughal's "translation" is a complete re-write which would be seen by any real Muslim as highly offensive.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:06 pm
by iffo
@Mughal,
Whose fault it is if humanity did not understand.
Its your god writing such a stupid confusing message that only you understood. And he had the guts to say he wrote it very clearly. Didn't he know it was not clear? Proving he was no god, but Muhammad writing himself.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 7:10 pm
by passerby
Would love to hear from him. :wink:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:45 pm
by Mughal
Hombre wrote:mughal fair enough. you wrote that you already completed work on 36 surah and have 78 more to go. Let see them.

Please post few of those completed surah. Let see the content. Or provide the link to that site where is posted.


thanks


Dear Hombre, I have already provided link to what I have written so far but here it is again http://www.jangforum.net/index.php?action=forum see discover islam section on that forum. I am now working surah 40.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 8:52 pm
by Mughal
passerby wrote:Is islam a peaceful religion as taught by the quran, the hadith, etc.? I am just curious.


Dear paaserby, islam is not a religion but a deen and I have already explained the difference between the two. As for deen of islam it means a way of life that can lead mankind to blissful, dignified and secure existence in this world and therefore in hereafter provided people learn sense to make proper sense of it and follow it faithfully.

To live by a way of life means to fulfil one's needs as explained by the quran as a member of a proper human community.

regards adn all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:09 pm
by Mughal
manfred wrote:Dear passerby, that is the thing... neither the Qur'an nor the hadith teach anything peaceful. in fact the opposite is true.

Mughal's "translation" is a complete re-write which would be seen by any real Muslim as highly offensive.


Dear manfred, my interpretation of the quran is based upon foundational rules which are not used in almost all of the quranic translations and interpretations due to which has risen confusion or perhaps that was the reason such vital rules were ignored by mullahs in their interpretations of the quran to mislead people.

One has to read through my work on the quran to see what is wrong with mullahs' interpretation of the quran and why.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:17 pm
by Mughal
iffo wrote:@Mughal,
Whose fault it is if humanity did not understand.
Its your god writing such a stupid confusing message that only you understood. And he had the guts to say he wrote it very clearly. Didn't he know it was not clear? Proving he was no god, but Muhammad writing himself.


Dear iffo, do you do things without any purpose in mind? If you do not then how can you not be aware that Allah too has to have a purpose for doing anything at all. What is that purpose and what is there in this universe or in the revelation of Allah that does not fit in with stated purpose of Allah? If you do not bother to learn how to make sense of things then can that really be fault of God? Have you bothered reading through my explanation of the quran in the links provided for this very purpose? Unless we learn something properly we cannot be right in talking against it. It only reflects our own ignorance about it. So kindly read what is explained and see how it makes sense.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:42 pm
by passerby
Mughal wrote:
passerby wrote:Is islam a peaceful religion as taught by the quran, the hadith, etc.? I am just curious.


Dear paaserby, islam is not a religion but a deen and I have already explained the difference between the two. As for deen of islam it means a way of life that can lead mankind to blissful, dignified and secure existence in this world and therefore in hereafter provided people learn sense to make proper sense of it and follow it faithfully.

To live by a way of life means to fulfil one's needs as explained by the quran as a member of a proper human community.

regards adn all the best.

You mean the quran is not a religious book. So it just a book on a way of life. Just curious why do the muslim pray while reading the quran, if it is not a religious book. I suppose you can just read any book when you pray.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:00 pm
by passerby
Mughal wrote:
manfred wrote:Dear passerby, that is the thing... neither the Qur'an nor the hadith teach anything peaceful. in fact the opposite is true.

Mughal's "translation" is a complete re-write which would be seen by any real Muslim as highly offensive.


Dear manfred, my interpretation of the quran is based upon foundational rules which are not used in almost all of the quranic translations and interpretations due to which has risen confusion or perhaps that was the reason such vital rules were ignored by mullahs in their interpretations of the quran to mislead people.

One has to read through my work on the quran to see what is wrong with mullahs' interpretation of the quran and why.

regards and all the best.

You mean you can interpret the quran. I thought the quran is perfect and cannot be interpreted by anyone. If you do, you have committed apostasy. I suppose it's ok since you said it is not a religious book. It is just a book on a way of life on health science butchering etc. Do you consider the isis, the taliban,etc., are wrong in treating the quran as a religious book?

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Mon Nov 16, 2015 10:39 pm
by manfred
You mean you can interpret the quran.


:lotpot:

Well, Mughal states that ONLY he and NOBODY ELSE has EVER understood the Qur'an correctly. Presumably that includes Mohammed, as he always justified his selfish and violent actions with his "revelations" which (mostly) form the basis of today's Qur'an. So the very book that states it is easy to understand and in plain Arabic (even though the original source texts were not) was completely misunderstood until Mughal came along, 1400 years later, after having been extensively studied by millions of people. Mughal must the true seal of the the prophets I suppose, correcting Mohammed and Allah.

So let's send him a golden chamber pot, in case someone feels the urge to drink his urine, as was the case with Mohammed's followers.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 3:18 am
by iffo
Mughal wrote:
iffo wrote:@Mughal,
Whose fault it is if humanity did not understand.
Its your god writing such a stupid confusing message that only you understood. And he had the guts to say he wrote it very clearly. Didn't he know it was not clear? Proving he was no god, but Muhammad writing himself.


Dear iffo, do you do things without any purpose in mind? If you do not then how can you not be aware that Allah too has to have a purpose for doing anything at all. What is that purpose and what is there in this universe or in the revelation of Allah that does not fit in with stated purpose of Allah? If you do not bother to learn how to make sense of things then can that really be fault of God? Have you bothered reading through my explanation of the quran in the links provided for this very purpose? Unless we learn something properly we cannot be right in talking against it. It only reflects our own ignorance about it. So kindly read what is explained and see how it makes sense.

regards and all the best.

I think Manfred already wrote what I was going to write.
Allah's message no one could understand despite being sincere Muslims means message was not clear. So it's Allah fault not fault of billions of muslims. Allah can not fault since he is god, so it means this
book is not from God

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Nov 17, 2015 11:39 pm
by Hombre
Mughal wrote:Dear Hombre, I have already provided link to what I have written so far but here it is again http://www.jangforum.net/index.php?action=forum see discover islam section on that forum. I am now working surah 40.

regards and all the best.
dear mughal
unlike this biog dedicated to point out flaws in Islam - from what I have seen there, your blog is dedicated to what is good in Islam. Perhaps your underline plan is to pull members from here to your blog. Not sure

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2015 8:32 pm
by passerby
@ Mughal,

Funny that you have started this thread. No body misunderstood the the quran. It is according to what is intended although very badly written. We infidels know your quran is evil and you know what your quran want you to do to us.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:39 pm
by Mughal
Hombre wrote:Mhghal
Since reading both book. The Hebrew Bible & the Quran, I have been trying to compare the Jewish Prophets to that of Muslim - Muhammad being the only one. (Please DO NOT even think of trying to convince me, All those pre-Islam era prophets were preaching Islam - they were not - Period),

In ancient days, when prophets like Moses, Jonah, and others, warned the people of impending punishment from God, upon those who did not followed God's commands, they were punished. Often, mitigated by God onto the people. These punishment came in form of natural disasters. (the 10 Pledges, the Flooding during Noah, and the eruptions in Sodom & Gomorrah. These acts must have given more credibility to these prophets, and served as proof that, God indeed was communicating with them, as his messenger. Furthermore, through these events, both, HB & NT provide ample evidence that, God WAS communicating directly with his prophets / Messengers.

Looking at Mohammad's era, and from the Quran & Hadith, it is clear that:.
a) Alllah (God) never talked directly to Mohamad - always, through a 3rd intermediary party (Angle Gabriel). An act by itself a suspicious one
b) Nowhere, do we read, or find, any indications that, Allah himself ever punished those who refused to follow Mohammad.
c) The convincing evidence is that, all those punishments were planned, initiated, and committed by none other them Mohammad himself - often himself took part in the orgy of killing infidels. ("Allah revealed to me, to kill those people".

What I mean is that, while other prophets were able to demonstrate their extraordinary powers (Jesus to heal woulds. Moses to part the Red Sea, etc). Mohammad never proved these powers - only went out there and yelled "Allah revealed". In fact, by aligning himself with them, Mohammad simply juxtopozed those prophets powers, to convince the gullible Muslims as though he also possessed them

So, how can we be NOT sure that, Allah existed only in Mohammad own imaginations, He & Alllah are one.


Dear Hombre, there is still a problem with my explanation of things not because my explanation is wrong but because others are not aware of other meanings of words used in the quran. For example I explained meanings of words like SALAAH, SOWM, ZAKAAH and HAJJ. I started by saying words have very many meanings in arabic roots just like hebrew and other language roots. Now the real question is, what are those meanings of words used in the quran which fit in fine with the text of the quran.

Many of you who have read the quran in translated form will know the translations of the quran mostly use meaning that fit the concepts of the translators. If a translator believes God is almighty and he wants total obedience therefore he strike down those who disbelieve or disobey him then he is going to pick such meanings as convey his understanding of the text. The porblem is this belief in itself is false in the context of the quranic text. The quran as we all know begins with formula BIS MILLA HIRRAHMAA NIRRAHEEM. How a person who has started with concept of such a God who is so nice ends up with concept of a God who strikes people down like a nasty monster? This is how mullahs have been mistranslating the quranic text through out.

Nowhere Allah wants obedience of people as far as the quran is concerned and nowhere it tells anyone was ever destroyed by God for disobeying God. How can it be when God has created people ignorant himself to begin with? What the quran uses are words like ITAAT and ITIBAA. One has to go and open up a good ancient arabic dictionary to see in how many different ways these words have been used in arabic language.

Word ITAAT comes from root TWAA, WOW and AIN. It is mainly used in the quran in sense of consistency or harmony or being of the same mindset or like mindedness or being mentally in step with each other. It does mean obey but use of word in that sense becomes a problem because God of the quran is a very different God than a religious dogmatic God. God of the quran advises mankind to live their lives in a certain way for a particular purpose and explains that purpose in great detail. After that he tell mankind that if you will fail to take my advice aboard then consequences could be very serious for you people. It is like a person tells a blind man this is how your environment is set up and works and if you will go about your business in a certain way then you will be fine but if you will ignore that then you will fall into problems. Likewise the quran tells mankind that God has set up the universe in a certain way and people should explore it to discover things for themselves and use that to their advantage. Failing that people could end up causing harm or damage to themselves. This turns the whole mullahs nonsense on its head.

Likewise is used word ITIBAA which is from root TAA, BAA and AIN. It also mean consistency or harmony but this time it means in actions not just thoughts as is the case with word ITAAT. To be in sync with something or someone in some sense for some reason or purpose. Mullahs translate this word as follow the prophet but what the quranic context tells us is the fact that all messengers that were ever sent by God had to be consistent with guidance of God and they were supposed to tell others to become consistent with guidance of God as well as with each other. The reason they told this to their people was so that people become a single brotherhood of humanity. This is the meaning of the message of God which unless people,study the scripture by themselves cannot get. This is the reason I tell people to understand these points and then do your own thinking and see what you get. Allah sent his messengers on an assigned mission and people could only support or oppose them. Their supporters are called mutabieen ie supporters of their mission, which also means followers but that means as if people are following prophets instead of guidance of Allah which not what the quran means and the quran explains that too ie it says even a messenger of God has no right to ask people to follow me or submit to me instead of God see 3/79.

Likewise there are many words which need explanation because mullahs have not interpreted the quran correctly for whatever reaosn. The main reason why mullahs failed to interpret the quran correctly is because they have adopted religious nonsense due to their ignorance and they have labelled it deen of islam. They do not get their beliefs from the quran from its proper context in light of real world realities. If they had, we will not be having this discussion.

The quran uses word SIHR repeatedly which mullahs translate as magic. The real meaning of this word is trickery. The context in which the quran uses word sihr in case of moses and pharoah is who has the right to rule the world and kingdom of egypt. It is God not pharoah. However by tricks rulers, money lenders and mullahs justify their rule over masses and that trickery is called magic where by they turn ropes into serpents in minds of people. Not that any person had supernatural powers to turn ropes into snakes by magic or miracle. Seeing these sort of problems people have with text of the quran I have stopped working on the quranic interpretation at surah 4o and have started including the dictionary of the quran by explaining different meanings of the words used in the quran verse by verse. So I am back to start again and am working on surah. This increases my work by many folds but I am hopeful I will complete it in next few years. This will make totally independent of mullahs because then people will be able to see how difficult it is to make proper sense of the quranic text but not if you become experienced in problems involved. Being on my own it is quite a lot of work for me to carry out but I will try my best to make my contributions to this work.

So for time being I am very busy with my project therefore I cannot address individual issues raised by individuals however I know what the problems is therefore once I have dealt with that problem things will be hopefully fine.

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:26 pm
by Hombre
mughal,
Perhaps remind you that, I am also well familiar with Arabic letters & words.

First. it is you who mispronounce the first verse in the quran. It DOES NOT sound "BIS MILLA HIRRAHMAA NIRRAHEEM" - Rather "Biss-millah-u-rahman-u-rahim. It is clear that your native language is NOT Arabic. you pronounce it with heavy Hindu accent.

The most astonishing which made me choke is that, you claim those Mullahs who's native language is same language as the Quran, they do not understand, nor interpret the Quran as it should. Yet, you as Hindu native, who's mother tong is NOT Arabic you, seem to understand it better then they do. Allah is Akbar no?

Second. If you claim that, words in Quran are beyond human comprehension, then why not claim the same standards to the Hebrew Bible & New Testament?. After all, the original HB was written in Hebrew & Aramaic. NT was written in Greek. So these book also do contain "word beyond comprehension of human being".

As I mentioned before, since the Quran is devoid of meaningful context. A manuscript written in low quality language - Muslims like you clink to every word and invent theories which defy logic, with sole purpose to foreclose further critical discussions about the Quran.

I am very sorry to be hard on you friend. But your your argument - along with other decent Muslims like you about the merits and validity of the Quran is not convincing - period.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:16 am
by Mughal
Hombre wrote:mughal,
Perhaps remind you that, I am also well familiar with Arabic letters & words.

First. it is you who mispronounce the first verse in the quran. It DOES NOT sound "BIS MILLA HIRRAHMAA NIRRAHEEM" - Rather "Biss-millah-u-rahman-u-rahim. It is clear that your native language is NOT Arabic. you pronounce it with heavy Hindu accent.

The most astonishing which made me choke is that, you claim those Mullahs who's native language is same language as the Quran, they do not understand, nor interpret the Quran as it should. Yet, you as Hindu native, who's mother tong is NOT Arabic you, seem to understand it better then they do. Allah is Akbar no?

Second. If you claim that, words in Quran are beyond human comprehension, then why not claim the same standards to the Hebrew Bible & New Testament?. After all, the original HB was written in Hebrew & Aramaic. NT was written in Greek. So these book also do contain "word beyond comprehension of human being".

As I mentioned before, since the Quran is devoid of meaningful context. A manuscript written in low quality language - Muslims like you clink to every word and invent theories which defy logic, with sole purpose to foreclose further critical discussions about the Quran.

I am very sorry to be hard on you friend. But your your argument - along with other decent Muslims like you about the merits and validity of the Quran is not convincing - period.


Dear Hombre, I have not mispronounced bismillah rather you have made mistakes in trying to break it down into senseless segments. bismillah when broken down into individual words it becomes bi meaning with or in etc ie it is preposition or harf, ism means name which is a noun, Allah is proper noun for God, al-rahmaan and al-raheem are ismaa al sifaat or attributes or adjectives. However that was not the point I was making so I am not worried what you make of it. It is like we start being critical of each other's spelling mistakes instead of concentrating on what the discussion is about.

As for your point that bible should be read using same idea of roots and meanings, yes but it cannot be given same signifance as the quran. Why not? Because bible is not word of God like the quran is rather it is a work produced by different people in different times by themselves who were inspired may be out of love for God. Only and only the quran makes repeated claims for being the revealed word of God and that also in great detail.

Since writing about God and people is very different from a God sent message written down by people therefore it has to be treated that way. This is why we cannot claim that bible could not be understood for its meanings like the quran. It is because when people write something they know what they mean by it so although they could still be misunderstood by each other but their vision is only limited to human creativity capability therefore they no matter how hard they try cannot be Gods when speaking or writing about God or things. There is a clear distinction between books written by people about God and things and a message sent by God and written down by people. It is because human beings cannot claim to know the mind of God hence the problem with understanding the message in the quran is a very different problem than with the bible or any other such book. In the new testaments all four gospels are attributed to mathew, mark, luke and john as their authors not God.

Likewise jewish religion is attributed to jewish tribes not God just like christianity is attributed to christ. On the same basis the quran attributed deen of islam to God not muhammad or his tribe etc. So there are clear differences due to which message of the quran is although similar here and there to bible and other books yet it is very different in various respects that really matter as I have explained already here and their in my posts on this very forum.

So it should be very obvious to anyone as to why I do not think the quran is similar to other books which people attribute to God. I make many points in my work on the quran but I will have to create a page of my own to upload it for people to see. The main point is reformation of mankind instead of the quranic text because it is very much obvious that text of the quran can be and must reinterpreted to keep it relevant to real world realities otherwise a book for guidance of humanity becomes useless due to falling out of step as humanity makes new discoveries due to learning more and more day by day..

regards and all the best.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 7:26 pm
by Hombre
Dear mughl,
Lets set aside the intellectual foot dancing, and cut through the chase. Any manuscript which repeats biblical stories which were told 1500 years earlier - it can not be word of god - rather, words of a plagiarizer, who copied them from others, and sold them to those gullibles as originated from him.

The very fact that, those Jews of that time who did not buy Muhammad's biblical stores is because they knew those stories from their own religious belief going back 1500 year. Muhammad was telling them - rather crudely, what they already knew. Since he could not prove them his stories were genuine - he did what every criminal does - eliminate witnessed and evidence. Deny the HB & NT and kill Jews who questioned his authenticity.

The fact is, 70% of stories told in Quran, all were derived from HB. 25% from NT. 3% from Hindu, and remaining from Pagan practice (where the symbol of the moon came from?- pagan practice)

We all believe in what we WANT to believe. Since birth you have been told "Quran is a word of God", therefore you believe. What you and other well educated and meaning Muslims need do, is closely examine Muhammad's life BEFORE he declared himself as prophet. Where was he? whom did he interact with? (Jews & Christians). At the end of the day, you will reach same conclusions as others did - Muhammad derived all his stories NOT from Allah or Angles - rather from stories he heard while visiting Synagogues and Churches throughout the Mekkah, Yatribe area & Damascus, where he lived & grew up & visited .

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 8:47 pm
by marduk
Hombre wrote:Dear mughl,
Lets set aside the intellectual foot dancing, and cut through the chase. Any manuscript which repeats biblical stories which were told 1500 years earlier - it can not be word of god - rather, words of a plagiarizer, who copied them from others, and sold them to those gullibles as originated from him.

The very fact that, those Jews of that time who did not buy Muhammad's biblical stores is because they knew those stories from their own religious belief going back 1500 year. Muhammad was telling them - rather crudely, what they already knew. Since he could not prove them his stories were genuine - he did what every criminal does - eliminate witnessed and evidence. Deny the HB & NT and kill Jews who questioned his authenticity.

The fact is, 70% of stories told in Quran, all were derived from HB. 25% from NT. 3% from Hindu, and remaining from Pagan practice (where the symbol of the moon came from?- pagan practice)

We all believe in what we WANT to believe. Since birth you have been told "Quran is a word of God", therefore you believe. What you and other well educated and meaning Muslims need do, is closely examine Muhammad's life BEFORE he declared himself as prophet. Where was he? whom did he interact with? (Jews & Christians). At the end of the day, you will reach same conclusions as others did - Muhammad derived all his stories NOT from Allah or Angles - rather from stories he heard while visiting Synagogues and Churches throughout the Mekkah, Yatribe area & Damascus, where he lived & grew up & visited .

Muhammad did exactly as "the final Prophet", Mani, had done shortly before, claim that the existing religions had been corrupted and he was here to give the final corrected version, in which those writings are revised and mingled with new elements supplied by him. The plan was to make HIS religion appealing to members of other current ones. He misled many for quite some time and over a wide area, until the Persians got tired of his lies and threw him in prison until he died, as described in the wiki page for Prophet Mani.

"Shapur's successor Hormizd I (who reigned only for one year) appears to have continued to patronize Mani, but his successor Bahram I, a follower of the Zoroastrian reformer Kartir, began to persecute the Manichaeans. He incarcerated Mani, who died in prison within a month, in 274 CE.[17] Mani's followers depicted Mani's death as a crucifixion in a conscious analogy to the death of Christ; Al-Biruni says that Bahram ordered the execution of Mani. He was flayed alive and his skin stuffed with straw, was nailed to a cross and suspended over the main gate of the great city of Jundishapur as a terrifying spectacle for those who followed his teachings. His corpse was decapitated and the head placed on a spike. Bahram also ordered the killing of many Manicheans." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mani_(prophet)

Sadly, Muhammad escaped the similar fate which he deserved. But I mean, how obvious can it be? That was only a few centuries prior. Seems rather unlikely that "Allah" would have the REAL final Prophet completely imitate the "false final Prophet" from not long before. Wouldn't that just beg for people to say FRAUD? Allah would have to be the dumbest bugger in the universe, would he not? He was trying to GET people to believe he existed, not virtually guarantee that they wouldn't.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Mon Jun 27, 2016 11:19 pm
by Hombre
Well. "real" prophets do real things, like kill anyone who insulted them 15 years earlier. Or chop heads of those who refused to believe him.
Chopping heads, fornicating 9 year old girls, and lie take a "real" man to do so.

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 8:52 pm
by sum
Is the muslim world acting any differently to the muslims in the time of Muhammad? It would appear that they are and so they are true muslims acting as Islam dictates.

sum