has humanity understood the quran properly?

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
frankie
Posts: 2608
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by frankie »

Mughal:

Did Mohammed put into action the Quran's commands correctly?

If he did, he wasn't as good an example for mankinds benefit, as previous prophets allegedly from the same divine source.

The quotes of Mohammed and verses from the Quran show that both Allah and his best example for mankind were/are utterly ruthless against those who do not believe in either.

Considering Allah is supposed to a compassionate and wise supreme being, he taught his example for mankind to be as uncompassionate as is humanly possible, which in turn teaches the rest of mankind to be as inhumane as they are.

Mohammed said:
Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 065.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Musa : A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame
and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that
Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."


Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to
forgive him.)"

Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 073.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Abdullah bin Abi Aufa : Allah's Apostle said, "Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords."
Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 080I.
------------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah's Apostle said, "Allah welcomes two men with a smile; one of whom kills the other
and both of them enter Paradise. One fights in Allah's Cause and gets killed. Later on Allah forgives the 'killer who
also get martyred (In Allah's Cause)."
Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).


The Quran says:

Quran 9.111
God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur 'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Quran 9.29
Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
8.39 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily God doth see all that they do.


Quran 3.151
Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with God, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

Quran 8.12
Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

Quran 8.60
Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of God and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of God, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly

Quran 48.28
It is He Who has sent His Apostle with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion: and enough is God for a Witness.


-----------------------------------------

Volumn 008, Book 082, Hadith Number 796.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Anas : A group of people from 'Ukl (tribe) came to the Prophet and they were living with the people of
As-Suffa, but they became ill as the climate of Medina did not suit them, so they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide
us with milk." The Prophet said, I see no other way for you than to use the camels of Allah's Apostle." So they
went and drank the milk and urine of the camels, (as medicine) and became healthy and fat. Then they killed the
shepherd and took the camels away. When a help-seeker came to Allah's Apostle, he sent some men in their
pursuit, and they were captured and brought before mid day. The Prophet ordered for some iron pieces to be
made red hot, and their eyes were branded with them and their hands and feet were cut off and were not
cauterised. Then they were put at a place called Al-Harra, and when they asked for water to drink they were not
given till they died. (Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder and fought against Allah and His
Apostle.")

Volumn 009, Book 084, Hadith Number 057.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Ikrima : Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event,
reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it,
saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement
of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
Volumn 001, Book 008, Hadith Number 387.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Anas bin Malik : Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the
right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we
slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and
their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik, "O Abu Hamza! What
makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped
but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim,
and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."

User avatar
Hombre
Posts: 3741
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:18 am

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Hombre »

Mhghal
Since reading both book. The Hebrew Bible & the Quran, I have been trying to compare the Jewish Prophets to that of Muslim - Muhammad being the only one. (Please DO NOT even think of trying to convince me, All those pre-Islam era prophets were preaching Islam - they were not - Period),

In ancient days, when prophets like Moses, Jonah, and others, warned the people of impending punishment from God, upon those who did not followed God's commands, they were punished. Often, mitigated by God onto the people. These punishment came in form of natural disasters. (the 10 Pledges, the Flooding during Noah, and the eruptions in Sodom & Gomorrah. These acts must have given more credibility to these prophets, and served as proof that, God indeed was communicating with them, as his messenger. Furthermore, through these events, both, HB & NT provide ample evidence that, God WAS communicating directly with his prophets / Messengers.

Looking at Mohammad's era, and from the Quran & Hadith, it is clear that:.
a) Alllah (God) never talked directly to Mohamad - always, through a 3rd intermediary party (Angle Gabriel). An act by itself a suspicious one
b) Nowhere, do we read, or find, any indications that, Allah himself ever punished those who refused to follow Mohammad.
c) The convincing evidence is that, all those punishments were planned, initiated, and committed by none other them Mohammad himself - often himself took part in the orgy of killing infidels. ("Allah revealed to me, to kill those people".

What I mean is that, while other prophets were able to demonstrate their extraordinary powers (Jesus to heal woulds. Moses to part the Red Sea, etc). Mohammad never proved these powers - only went out there and yelled "Allah revealed". In fact, by aligning himself with them, Mohammad simply juxtopozed those prophets powers, to convince the gullible Muslims as though he also possessed them

So, how can we be NOT sure that, Allah existed only in Mohammad own imaginations, He & Alllah are one.

Mughal
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

Hombre wrote:Mhghal
Since reading both book. The Hebrew Bible & the Quran, I have been trying to compare the Jewish Prophets to that of Muslim - Muhammad being the only one. (Please DO NOT even think of trying to convince me, All those pre-Islam era prophets were preaching Islam - they were not - Period),

In ancient days, when prophets like Moses, Jonah, and others, warned the people of impending punishment from God, upon those who did not followed God's commands, they were punished. Often, mitigated by God onto the people. These punishment came in form of natural disasters. (the 10 Pledges, the Flooding during Noah, and the eruptions in Sodom & Gomorrah. These acts must have given more credibility to these prophets, and served as proof that, God indeed was communicating with them, as his messenger. Furthermore, through these events, both, HB & NT provide ample evidence that, God WAS communicating directly with his prophets / Messengers.

Looking at Mohammad's era, and from the Quran & Hadith, it is clear that:.
a) Alllah (God) never talked directly to Mohamad - always, through a 3rd intermediary party (Angle Gabriel). An act by itself a suspicious one
b) Nowhere, do we read, or find, any indications that, Allah himself ever punished those who refused to follow Mohammad.
c) The convincing evidence is that, all those punishments were planned, initiated, and committed by none other them Mohammad himself - often himself took part in the orgy of killing infidels. ("Allah revealed to me, to kill those people".

What I mean is that, while other prophets were able to demonstrate their extraordinary powers (Jesus to heal woulds. Moses to part the Red Sea, etc). Mohammad never proved these powers - only went out there and yelled "Allah revealed". In fact, by aligning himself with them, Mohammad simply juxtopozed those prophets powers, to convince the gullible Muslims as though he also possessed them

So, how can we be NOT sure that, Allah existed only in Mohammad own imaginations, He & Alllah are one.
Thank you dear Hombre, you have hit the nail on the head. That is what I was saying all along that Muhammad never claimed to be anything other than an ordinary man who has received from God only and only wisdom. No supernatural power whatsoever. Allah never punished anyone and it is people who keep in check each other due to personal or group vested interests but Allah told them to learn sense and do not treat each other this way. However people are people so they learn in their own time and they will in due course.

Today there is no proof of any sort for any prophethood from God of anyone other than Muhammad and that is only and only on basis of the wisdom the quran contains. No hindu, parsi, jew, christian etc can prove any of their claims because they make absurd claims about their religious personalities whereas the quran does not make any absurd claim at all. A really down to earth book. So jewish and christian etc prophets are only accepted as such due to the quran. And no they did not do any miracles as such,they also received wisdom from God and tried to educate people just like muhammad. The rest are just made up stories just like muslims have them about muhammad. God created the world because he wanted to express himself through his power of creativity and so he proved his wisdom through his revelations. It will have been silly for God to try to impress a few people with miracles and fail to give an account based upon his wisdom. This will have shown God is not wise therefore not able to express himself wisely. The main thing is reason why God created the world the way he did and the quran explains that perfectly leaving no loose threads if you read my explanations about all this full picture.

People are going to realise the truth about the quran as they become more and more educated in due course. A book that I do not see can be undermined as time goes on. In fact the coming time is going to confirm its truths more and more because more and more of its statement are going to be understood.

regards and all the best.

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manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by manfred »

Today there is no proof of any sort for any prophethood from God of anyone other than Muhammad and that is only and only on basis of the wisdom the quran contains.
:lotpot:

You are hilarious....

So the Qur'an is WRONG you say when it mentions other "prophets", but it provided "proof" that Mohammed is a prophet.... And we have the Qur'an courtesy of .... MOHAMMED! Now, this "proof" has to be a good laugh, please post it here. I don't think it would stand up for long enough to be knocked over.

So, why would you not accept me as a prophet if I wrote such a claim on a piece of paper? How about yeezevee? I think he would be a cute prophet.... and a damn side less damaging than old Mo...

Others made the same claims as Mohammed much later, like this guy:

Image

it's Mirza Ghulam Ahmad, the founder of the Ahmadis. OK, in that picture he looks as if he had a bit too much palm toddy, and he may have an ice pack under that massive turban, but he ALSO claimed in writing to be a prophet. Some even believed him, and he has followers to this day.

So why only Mohammed and not him?

Because Mohammed said he would be the last one? Well, a great many said that too, both before and after Mo.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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Hombre
Posts: 3741
Joined: Fri Dec 18, 2009 3:18 am

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Hombre »

Mughal wrote: Thank you dear Hombre, you have hit the nail on the head. That is what I was saying all along that Muhammad never claimed to be anything other than an ordinary man who has received from God only and only wisdom. No supernatural power whatsoever. Allah never punished anyone and it is people who keep in check each other due to personal or group vested interests but Allah told them to learn sense and do not treat each other this way. However people are people so they learn in their own time and they will in due course.

regards and all the best.
Thank you for the reply. I am somehow baffled at your reply. Your claim of "today there is no of prophethood" falls flat, considering the way Muslims refer to Mohammad - other then "prophet". You are saying it, because it does not fit into Muslim own narrative of history.

You speak of Mohammad, as the only one with "wisdom", timidity, and qualities which define as "messenger of god". That, indeed would be somehow believable, had he not been the johnny-come-late figure, in term of time-line in course of history. The fact is - he was the last one, who received his knowledge which was passed on to him by Jews & Christians.

It is a matter of fact that, in ancient times, for any religious leader (Prophet) to gain the trust and respect of others, he had to demonstrate his ability to effectuate events, Unlike Jews and Christians, Mohammad never did anything, other then, tell others "I am a prophet" w/o a shred of evidence to that effect.

All his revelations are the same as those already have been revealed to previous prophets. The Quran just repeats (though with some editorial of its own) the same stories told in HB & NT. In fact the Quran goes through length to describe Moses's demonstration of extraordinary power to Pharaoh, when he was demanding him to free Jews to leave Egypt. Your reply smacks contradictory to what the Quran says.

You say Mohammad was "mere messenger". That is odd, as it contradicts what is written in the same Qurant to which you are talking about. I don't know, how repartitions of the same order "Obey Allah & his Messenger" (Mohmmad), can be interpreted as anything other then, a psychological brainwashing of fear and intimidation of this man. Otherwise, why Muslims can not bring themselves, even utter a slighted criticism of this man - w/o fear of losing their lives.

One would think, a "perfect man" is just that - immune and impervious to any criticism from anyone.
It is insane for any rational people to take one man's own words of authority - w/o the need to prove anything.

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skynightblaze
Posts: 3920
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by skynightblaze »

Mughal wrote: Thank you dear Hombre, you have hit the nail on the head. That is what I was saying all along that Muhammad never claimed to be anything other than an ordinary man who has received from God only and only wisdom.
Come on man! Even Muhammad would laugh after reading the part in red. But don't worry. There must be a good reason for that .... You can counter that by saying that concept of wisdom was not known during prophet's time :lol: . Someone should have told that it is ok to wisdom Muhammad that occasional use of wisdom does not hurt .
Mughal wrote: Today there is no proof of any sort for any prophethood from God of anyone other than Muhammad and that is only and only on basis of the wisdom the quran contains.
Thanks for proving that quran lied to us when it called Jesus, Moses and others as prophets.
Mughal wrote: No hindu, parsi, jew, christian etc can prove any of their claims because they make absurd claims about their religious personalities whereas the quran does not make any absurd claim at all. A really down to earth book. So jewish and christian etc prophets are only accepted as such due to the quran. And no they did not do any miracles as such,they also received wisdom from God and tried to educate people just like muhammad. The rest are just made up stories just like muslims have them about muhammad.
Thanks once again for proving that quran lied to us about miracles performed by the prophets of the past. Btw if God communicated with the prophets of jews and christians they automatically become prophets and this contradicts your first quote where you said no one apart from Muhammad was a prophet.

And you say quran is down to earth book ? Read 33:21 and other verses which brag about muhammad being of exalted character.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

frankie
Posts: 2608
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by frankie »

Mughal wrote:
Hombre wrote:Mhghal
Since reading both book. The Hebrew Bible & the Quran, I have been trying to compare the Jewish Prophets to that of Muslim - Muhammad being the only one. (Please DO NOT even think of trying to convince me, All those pre-Islam era prophets were preaching Islam - they were not - Period),

In ancient days, when prophets like Moses, Jonah, and others, warned the people of impending punishment from God, upon those who did not followed God's commands, they were punished. Often, mitigated by God onto the people. These punishment came in form of natural disasters. (the 10 Pledges, the Flooding during Noah, and the eruptions in Sodom & Gomorrah. These acts must have given more credibility to these prophets, and served as proof that, God indeed was communicating with them, as his messenger. Furthermore, through these events, both, HB & NT provide ample evidence that, God WAS communicating directly with his prophets / Messengers.

Looking at Mohammad's era, and from the Quran & Hadith, it is clear that:.
a) Alllah (God) never talked directly to Mohamad - always, through a 3rd intermediary party (Angle Gabriel). An act by itself a suspicious one
b) Nowhere, do we read, or find, any indications that, Allah himself ever punished those who refused to follow Mohammad.
c) The convincing evidence is that, all those punishments were planned, initiated, and committed by none other them Mohammad himself - often himself took part in the orgy of killing infidels. ("Allah revealed to me, to kill those people".

What I mean is that, while other prophets were able to demonstrate their extraordinary powers (Jesus to heal woulds. Moses to part the Red Sea, etc). Mohammad never proved these powers - only went out there and yelled "Allah revealed". In fact, by aligning himself with them, Mohammad simply juxtopozed those prophets powers, to convince the gullible Muslims as though he also possessed them

So, how can we be NOT sure that, Allah existed only in Mohammad own imaginations, He & Alllah are one.
Thank you dear Hombre, you have hit the nail on the head. That is what I was saying all along that Muhammad never claimed to be anything other than an ordinary man who has received from God only and only wisdom. No supernatural power whatsoever. Allah never punished anyone and it is people who keep in check each other due to personal or group vested interests but Allah told them to learn sense and do not treat each other this way. However people are people so they learn in their own time and they will in due course.

Today there is no proof of any sort for any prophethood from God of anyone other than Muhammad and that is only and only on basis of the wisdom the quran contains. No hindu, parsi, jew, christian etc can prove any of their claims because they make absurd claims about their religious personalities whereas the quran does not make any absurd claim at all. A really down to earth book. So jewish and christian etc prophets are only accepted as such due to the quran. And no they did not do any miracles as such,they also received wisdom from God and tried to educate people just like muhammad. The rest are just made up stories just like muslims have them about muhammad. God created the world because he wanted to express himself through his power of creativity and so he proved his wisdom through his revelations. It will have been silly for God to try to impress a few people with miracles and fail to give an account based upon his wisdom. This will have shown God is not wise therefore not able to express himself wisely. The main thing is reason why God created the world the way he did and the quran explains that perfectly leaving no loose threads if you read my explanations about all this full picture.

People are going to realise the truth about the quran as they become more and more educated in due course. A book that I do not see can be undermined as time goes on. In fact the coming time is going to confirm its truths more and more because more and more of its statement are going to be understood.

regards and all the best.
Mughal:

I would appreciate a comment from you regarding my previous response to your post.
Given the verses from the Quran and Mohammed's example, would you say they are conducive to a cohesive, peaceful coexistence between all of mankind?
Where is the evidence to show this?

Which verses in the Quran, and hadiths of Mohammed point out these "truths "you mention, and how are these "truths" beneficial to mankind as the Quran tells us they are.

frankie
Posts: 2608
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by frankie »

frankie wrote:
Mughal wrote:
Hombre wrote:Mhghal
Since reading both book. The Hebrew Bible & the Quran, I have been trying to compare the Jewish Prophets to that of Muslim - Muhammad being the only one. (Please DO NOT even think of trying to convince me, All those pre-Islam era prophets were preaching Islam - they were not - Period),

In ancient days, when prophets like Moses, Jonah, and others, warned the people of impending punishment from God, upon those who did not followed God's commands, they were punished. Often, mitigated by God onto the people. These punishment came in form of natural disasters. (the 10 Pledges, the Flooding during Noah, and the eruptions in Sodom & Gomorrah. These acts must have given more credibility to these prophets, and served as proof that, God indeed was communicating with them, as his messenger. Furthermore, through these events, both, HB & NT provide ample evidence that, God WAS communicating directly with his prophets / Messengers.

Looking at Mohammad's era, and from the Quran & Hadith, it is clear that:.
a) Alllah (God) never talked directly to Mohamad - always, through a 3rd intermediary party (Angle Gabriel). An act by itself a suspicious one
b) Nowhere, do we read, or find, any indications that, Allah himself ever punished those who refused to follow Mohammad.
c) The convincing evidence is that, all those punishments were planned, initiated, and committed by none other them Mohammad himself - often himself took part in the orgy of killing infidels. ("Allah revealed to me, to kill those people".

What I mean is that, while other prophets were able to demonstrate their extraordinary powers (Jesus to heal woulds. Moses to part the Red Sea, etc). Mohammad never proved these powers - only went out there and yelled "Allah revealed". In fact, by aligning himself with them, Mohammad simply juxtopozed those prophets powers, to convince the gullible Muslims as though he also possessed them

So, how can we be NOT sure that, Allah existed only in Mohammad own imaginations, He & Alllah are one.
Thank you dear Hombre, you have hit the nail on the head. That is what I was saying all along that Muhammad never claimed to be anything other than an ordinary man who has received from God only and only wisdom. No supernatural power whatsoever. Allah never punished anyone and it is people who keep in check each other due to personal or group vested interests but Allah told them to learn sense and do not treat each other this way. However people are people so they learn in their own time and they will in due course.

Today there is no proof of any sort for any prophethood from God of anyone other than Muhammad and that is only and only on basis of the wisdom the quran contains. No hindu, parsi, jew, christian etc can prove any of their claims because they make absurd claims about their religious personalities whereas the quran does not make any absurd claim at all. A really down to earth book. So jewish and christian etc prophets are only accepted as such due to the quran. And no they did not do any miracles as such,they also received wisdom from God and tried to educate people just like muhammad. The rest are just made up stories just like muslims have them about muhammad. God created the world because he wanted to express himself through his power of creativity and so he proved his wisdom through his revelations. It will have been silly for God to try to impress a few people with miracles and fail to give an account based upon his wisdom. This will have shown God is not wise therefore not able to express himself wisely. The main thing is reason why God created the world the way he did and the quran explains that perfectly leaving no loose threads if you read my explanations about all this full picture.

People are going to realise the truth about the quran as they become more and more educated in due course. A book that I do not see can be undermined as time goes on. In fact the coming time is going to confirm its truths more and more because more and more of its statement are going to be understood.

regards and all the best.
Mughal:

I would appreciate a comment from you regarding my previous response to your post.
Given the verses from the Quran and Mohammed's example, would you say they are conducive to a cohesive, peaceful coexistence between all of mankind?
Where is the evidence to show this?

Which verses in the Quran, and hadiths of Mohammed point out these "truths "you mention, and how are these "truths" beneficial to mankind as the Quran tells us they are.
Mughal:

I am still waiting for your reply.
Please answer the questions asked.

frankie
Posts: 2608
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by frankie »

frankie wrote:Mughal:

Did Mohammed put into action the Quran's commands correctly?

If he did, he wasn't as good an example for mankinds benefit, as previous prophets allegedly from the same divine source.

The quotes of Mohammed and verses from the Quran show that both Allah and his best example for mankind were/are utterly ruthless against those who do not believe in either.

Considering Allah is supposed to a compassionate and wise supreme being, he taught his example for mankind to be as uncompassionate as is humanly possible, which in turn teaches the rest of mankind to be as inhumane as they are.

Mohammed said:
Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 065.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Musa : A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame
and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that
Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."


Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to
forgive him.)"

Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 073.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Abdullah bin Abi Aufa : Allah's Apostle said, "Know that Paradise is under the shades of swords."
Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 080I.
------------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah's Apostle said, "Allah welcomes two men with a smile; one of whom kills the other
and both of them enter Paradise. One fights in Allah's Cause and gets killed. Later on Allah forgives the 'killer who
also get martyred (In Allah's Cause)."
Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to forgive him.)"

Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror (cast in the hearts of the enemy), and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures (i.e. the Prophet did not benefit by them).


The Quran says:

Quran 9.111
God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur 'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

Quran 9.29
Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
8.39 And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God altogether and everywhere; but if they cease, verily God doth see all that they do.


Quran 3.151
Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with God, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wrong-doers!

Quran 8.12
Remember thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the Believers: I will instil terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers: smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger-tips off them."

Quran 8.60
Against them make ready your strength to the utmost of your power, including steeds of war, to strike terror into (the hearts of) the enemies, of God and your enemies, and others besides, whom ye may not know, but whom God doth know. Whatever ye shall spend in the cause of God, shall be repaid unto you, and ye shall not be treated unjustly

Quran 48.28
It is He Who has sent His Apostle with Guidance and the Religion of Truth, to proclaim it over all religion: and enough is God for a Witness.


-----------------------------------------

Volumn 008, Book 082, Hadith Number 796.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Anas : A group of people from 'Ukl (tribe) came to the Prophet and they were living with the people of
As-Suffa, but they became ill as the climate of Medina did not suit them, so they said, "O Allah's Apostle! Provide
us with milk." The Prophet said, I see no other way for you than to use the camels of Allah's Apostle." So they
went and drank the milk and urine of the camels, (as medicine) and became healthy and fat. Then they killed the
shepherd and took the camels away. When a help-seeker came to Allah's Apostle, he sent some men in their
pursuit, and they were captured and brought before mid day. The Prophet ordered for some iron pieces to be
made red hot, and their eyes were branded with them and their hands and feet were cut off and were not
cauterised. Then they were put at a place called Al-Harra, and when they asked for water to drink they were not
given till they died. (Abu Qilaba said, "Those people committed theft and murder and fought against Allah and His
Apostle.")

Volumn 009, Book 084, Hadith Number 057.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Ikrima : Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event,
reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it,
saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement
of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"
Volumn 001, Book 008, Hadith Number 387.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Anas bin Malik : Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the
right to be worshipped but Allah.' And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we
slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally and
their reckoning will be with Allah." Narrated Maimun ibn Siyah that he asked Anas bin Malik, "O Abu Hamza! What
makes the life and property of a person sacred?" He replied, "Whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped
but Allah', faces our Qibla during the prayers, prays like us and eats our slaughtered animal, then he is a Muslim,
and has got the same rights and obligations as other Muslims have."

Mughal:

Given the verses from the Quran and Mohammed's example, would you say they are conducive to a cohesive, peaceful coexistence between all of mankind?
Where is the evidence to show this?

Which verses in the Quran, and hadiths of Mohammed point out these "truths "you mention, and how are these "truths" beneficial to mankind as the Quran tells us they are.

I am still waiting for your reply.
Please answer the questions asked.

Timf1234
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Timf1234 »

Mughal,

I was hoping you will respond to my questions.
Please scroll 3 posts up and see my post dated Feb. 13, 2014

Timf1234
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Timf1234 »

M85 wrote:
Timf1234 wrote:You tube is banned in Pakistan. FFI is banned in Saudi Arabia and Iran. here goes your internet propaganda.
Yet people in these countries are still leaving Islam. We don't know the numbers obviously, but we do know that folks are choosing to think for themselves and rejecting primitive and vile scriptures.
Source please?

Mughal
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »


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Hombre
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Hombre »

dear mughal, welcome back and very nice to see your presence here.

I watched the clip half way through. The reason I stopped watching the rest, is because the same pattern of interpretation of Quran, and excuses about Muhammad which you also use, started to appear. The guy spends 7 minuets explaining away Muhammad's illiteracy as "noble inspired by allah". or the case with word "unlettered", which he asks "where did Muhammad learn to recite the Quran". He did not learn it - he was imagining it in his own head, and reciting biblical stories, which he had heard years earlier from Jews & Christiasns - period

Since Quran contain low literary value, as source of knowledge, Muslim scholars hang on every word written in this manuscript - build imaginary stories with their own elaborate interpretation as to what each means. It reminds us the former president Clinton's who had affair with 21 year old intern, with his famous question, "what is the meaning of the word "is". When you say is, what is, is is?"

Here too, Muslims take offensive words like calling others "apes & Pigs" or "kill them where ever you find them", and attempt to present this garbage as scholarly work containing noble meaning of the highest level beyond human comprehension.

No convince my good man. Try again.

Mughal
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

Hombre wrote:dear mughal, welcome back and very nice to see your presence here.

I watched the clip half way through. The reason I stopped watching the rest, is because the same pattern of interpretation of Quran, and excuses about Muhammad which you also use, started to appear. The guy spends 7 minuets explaining away Muhammad's illiteracy as "noble inspired by allah". or the case with word "unlettered", which he asks "where did Muhammad learn to recite the Quran". He did not learn it - he was imagining it in his own head, and reciting biblical stories, which he had heard years earlier from Jews & Christiasns - period

Since Quran contain low literary value, as source of knowledge, Muslim scholars hang on every word written in this manuscript - build imaginary stories with their own elaborate interpretation as to what each means. It reminds us the former president Clinton's who had affair with 21 year old intern, with his famous question, "what is the meaning of the word "is". When you say is, what is, is is?"

Here too, Muslims take offensive words like calling others "apes & Pigs" or "kill them where ever you find them", and attempt to present this garbage as scholarly work containing noble meaning of the highest level beyond human comprehension.

No convince my good man. Try again.
Thank you for the welcome dear Humbre, that is very nice of you and I hope all is ok at your end as well.

For me the quran is a highly valuable book because the more I study it the better is becoming my own understanding of things. I do not defend muslims for their harmful and destructive mindsets, attitudes and behaviours or for that matter nonmuslims for the very same reasons. The bad ones are all bad as each other because they do not have any respect for God or humanity due to harbouring harmful and destructive ambition and desires against the betterment of humanity otherwise instead of fighting with each other and wasting time they should have been busy together finding solutions to the problems that face humanity today. We need more and more cooperation and working together of people for worthy goals rather than trying to cause unnecessary divisions and wars between people for personal gains at the expense of humanity. May be one day people will come to realise what they are doing to each other and why.

regards and all the best.

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Hombre
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Hombre »

again mugha,
please spare me the intellectual foot dancing will you?. ISIS, Al Qaida, Talibans, Boko Haram, and other barbaric Islamists, all drink from same well - Quran. In fact, ISIS brags that, they are the real Muslims who follow the Quran, and Muhammad's own behavior to the letter.

What I find disturbing in your long posts, they are rich with generality, and poor in specific. tim1234, frankie and others have been asking you repetitively - provide explanation on some of those posted "divine" suras from the Quran. Why don't we start from there.

Here is one sura asked by frankie
:
Quran 3.151
Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with God, for which He had sent no authority: their abode will be the Fire: And evil is the home of the wron-doers!"
If Islam is the religious of peace - why use of terror into heart of those who chose to keep their religion, and refuse to follow an illiterate man?.

frankie
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by frankie »

Mughal:

Islam is the only faith which legitimises violence to spread its message.

Something said to be the truth does not need humans to defend it through violent means, it can stand on its own merit.

Religion is all about saving the human soul from damnation,Islam is no exception in this as the Quran repeatedly mentions hell as a place to be avoided by believing in Allah and following the ways and example of its prophet, Mohammed.

But,because Mohammed was a false prophet and a product of his time, he mis understood this basic religious truth which is, you cannot placate a spiritual entity i.e.God by physically fighting and killing in its name, you have to use spiritual combat.

Because God and demonic forces are spiritual entities, it follows they can only be placated or defeated through spiritual means.

Mohammed used physical combat to coerce people into believing in his already worshipped pagan idol Allah, he brought nothing new, Islam follows the same customs and traditions already practiced throughout pagan Arabia, which Mohammed and his tribe the Quraish performed.

You are defending a pagan faith, which Mohammed transformed into a militant one, in the name of his pagan idol Allah.

You claim to be a student of this bogus belief system, then you must know it is a fake, but still you defend it.

There is no fool like an old fool as the saying goes, and you are the living proof of it.

Mughal
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

Dear friends, you have every right to ask me for answers about things but the fact is I am only one person so it is not possible for me to sit and answers each and everything to each and everyone. In my view it was necessary instead to try and make sense of the book over which we are all arguing. This is why I took time out to see what I can make of it. This is going to take time. I do not have any magic powers to hurry things up so we all needs to be patient till I complete my work on the quran. As I said in my other post I have reached surah 36 so far and there are 78 surahs more to go through yet. Even then I will have to revise it all again because as I am trying to explain more and more things more and more are coming to my mind which I have yet to put in the explanation.

You see, before you start something you think it is a piece of cake and you can do it in no time but when you actually start doing it only then reality dawns on you what you have gotten yourself into. Water seems ok when you watch it from the shore but when you fall in it that is the time you find out how deep the water is and how big trouble you are in. So you will have to give me time to complete my this project before I can really give as much attention to the discussion as much it needs. Moreover once I have completed my project I will be in a much better position to put my case before you. Otherwise random discussions do no good for any of us because that way we are only confusing each other more and more. I am learning more and more as I am working on this project so I am very much hopeful all will turn ok in the end.

If anyone looks at my work one will not fail to realise that I have managed to clarify many things about the quran. I am hopeful that same can done for the rest of the things we are concerned about but everything takes its time.

regards and all the best.

frankie
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by frankie »

Mughal:

The problem you are facing is how you want Islam TO BE,and not how Islam IS in reality according to how your role model prophet put his god's commands into action correctly by following the words held in the Quran, which is said to be literal and eternal.

The objective of the Islamic faith is to "proclaim Islam over all religion "by fighting those who do not believe in Allah, and accept its prophet Mohammed.

This objective was achieved at the time of Mohammed and beyond by armed jihad.

Islamic sources throughout prove this to be the case, The Reliance of the Traveller being one of many Islamic sources, concisely sums this up

Reliance of the Traveller:
[Section o9.0, page 599]
"Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word "mujahada", signifying warfare to establish the religion. And it is the lesser jihad. As for the greater jihad, it is spiritual warfare against the lower self, (nafs), which is why the Prophet said as he was returning from jihad, "We have returned from the lesser jihad to the greater jihad."
o9.0 JIHAD
(O: Jihad means to war against non-Muslims, and is etymologically derived from the word mujahada, signifying warfare to establish the religion…
The scriptural basis for jihad, prior to scholarly consensus is such Koranic verses as:
(1) “Fighting is prescribed for you” (Koran 2:216);
(2) “Slay them wherever you find them” (Koran 4:89);
(3) “Fight the idolators utterly” (Koran 9:36);
and such hadiths as the one related by Bukhari and Muslim that the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) said:
“I have been commanded to fight people until they testify that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and perform the prayer, and pay zakat. If they say it, they have saved their blood and possessions from me, except for the rights of Islam over them. And their final reckoning is with Allah”;
and the hadith reported by Muslim,
Sahih Muslim Volume 4, Book 52, Number 50:
“To go forth in the morning or evening to fight in the path of Allah is better than the whole world and everything in it.”


You are up against 1400 years of Islamic scholarship, plus the prophet of Islam's example, which show clearly that fighting the Non Muslim to bring him into "submission" is how orthodox Islam is designed.
I am learning more and more as I am working on this project so I am very much hopeful all will turn ok in the end.

It is to be hoped so, and when you come to the full realisation of what you as a Muslim are signed up to,you turn your back on it for ever, never to return.

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Hombre
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Hombre »

mughal fair enough. you wrote that you already completed work on 36 surah and have 78 more to go. Let see them.

Please post few of those completed surah. Let see the content. Or provide the link to that site where is posted.


thanks

passerby
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by passerby »

Is islam a peaceful religion as taught by the quran, the hadith, etc.? I am just curious.

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