has humanity understood the quran properly?

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
sum
Posts: 6561
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

You responded to my posts but avoided giving a specific answer.

Why do you favour the Koran and Islam instead of the New Testament and Jesus?

There are massive differences between the two and it is very clear to me that the New Testament and Jesus are infinitely more acceptable and credible than the Koran and Muhammad.

I am at a complete loss to understand why you support even your version of the Koran and Islam. I am also at a complete loss to understand why you would regard Muhammad as a prophet and that the Koran is the word of a god when it was dictated by Muhammad.

Please make your position more clear.

sum

darth
Posts: 492
Joined: Fri Jan 02, 2009 2:16 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by darth »

Mughal wrote: http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/7/179/default.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/16/78/default.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/22/46/default.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/23/78/default.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/67/23/default.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am not going to any of your links.

Let us look directly at the source, the quran.

Your stated “The Quran states that Allah has given mankind brain and senses and that they should use them properly for learning through observation and reflection. This was said 1400 years back.”

Where do any of these verses state that?

7.179 -And We have certainly created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind. They have hearts with which they do not understand, they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear. Those are like livestock; rather, they are more astray. It is they who are the heedless.

This silly verse seem to imply that you need to understand with your heart....

16.78 -And Allah has extracted you from the wombs of your mothers not knowing a thing, and He made for you hearing and vision and intellect that perhaps you would be grateful.

This verse implies that the purpose of the intellect is for you to be grateful

22.46 -So have they not traveled through the earth and have hearts by which to reason and ears by which to hear? For indeed, it is not eyes that are blinded, but blinded are the hearts which are within the breasts.

Another verse that seems to imply that the heart is the organ by which to reason

23.78 - And it is He who produced for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

Another verse that talks of hearing, vision and heart. Nothing about using brains to reason, reflect etc.

67.23 - Say, "It is He who has produced you and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful."

Another repetetive verse.

In short, none of the verses you have provided state anything about brain and senses used properly for learning through observation or reflection.

Now, go back and try again. If you make any statement that quran states this or that, provide the verse. Don't waste our time telling us the quran is saying something that you cannot prove. Perhaps your idea of humaity undestanding the quran properly means making up things it does not say? :clap:

frankie
Posts: 2608
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by frankie »

Mughal wrote:
frankie wrote:
Muslims and nonmuslims fight not because of the quran but because of their ignorance about it and due to what they want out of the quran. If all people had decent education and read the quran to make sense of it they will see a lot of sense in the quranic text.
Mughal:

Following on from your advise I have read the Quran and come across this verse which according to your reasoning I "should see a lot of sense"

Please explain this verse so that I may come to see the sense in this particular quranic text, bearing in mind that both the Law and the Gospel do not advocate their faithful to "kill and get killed" in the name of their God, which this verse strongly implies.


Quran 9.111
God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur 'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.
Dear frankie, I have interpreted the first 37 surahs of the quran so far so the link I have given has my interpretation of the verses people raise a lot of questions about
so please see it there and see what sense it makes in its context.

See also explanation i have given to manfred about concepts.

regards and all the best.

Not a good enough answer Mughal,its not your interpretation that has any meaning to all Muslims, so there is no point whatsoever debating your particular interpretations.

What does have meaning to all Muslims are the interpretations made by Muslim scholars, which have been passed on to their listeners throughout the centuries.

You are wasting your life on something that has no meaning to either your co religionists or any Non Muslim, the work that has the meaning was does centuries ago by the people Muslims have always listened to.

People like Ibn Kathir whose interpretation of surah 9.111 is listed below.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option ... &Itemid=64" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Allah states that He has compensated His believing servants for their lives and wealth -- if they give them up in His cause -- with Paradise. This demonstrates Allah's favor, generosity and bounty, for He has accepted the good that He already owns and bestowed, as a price from His faithful servants. Al-Hasan Al-Basri and Qatadah commented, "By Allah! Allah has purchased them and raised their worth.'' Shimr bin `Atiyyah said, "There is not a Muslim but has on his neck a sale that he must conduct with Allah; he either fulfills its terms or dies without doing that.'' He then recited this Ayah. This is why those who fight in the cause of Allah are said to have conducted the sale with Allah, meaning, accepted and fulfilled his covenant. Allah's statement,

﴿يُقَـتِلُونَ فِى سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ فَيَقْتُلُونَ وَيُقْتَلُونَ﴾

(They fight in Allah's cause, so they kill and are killed.) indicates that whether they were killed or they kill the enemy, or both, then Paradise will be theirs. The Two Sahihs recorded the Hadith,

«وَتَكَفَّلَ اللهُ لِمَنْ خَرَجَ فِي سَبِيلِهِ لَا يُخْرِجُهُ إِلَّا جِهَادٌ فِي سَبِيلِي وَتَصْدِيقٌ بِرُسُلِي بِأَنْ تَوَفَّاهُ أَنْ يُدْخِلَهُ الْجَنَّةَ، أَوْ يَرْجِعَهُ إِلَى مَنْزِلِهِ الَّذِي خَرَجَ مِنْهُ، نَائِلًا مَا نَالَ مِنْ أَجْرٍ أَوْ غَنِيمَة»

(Allah has made a promise to the person who goes out (to fight) in His cause; `And nothing compels him to do so except Jihad = in My Cause and belief in My Messengers. ' He will either be admitted to Paradise if he dies, or compensated by Allah, either with a reward or booty if He returns him to the home which he departed from.) Allah's statement,

﴿وَعْدًا عَلَيْهِ حَقًّا فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَالإِنجِيلِ وَالْقُرْءانِ﴾

(It is a promise in truth which is binding on Him in the Tawrah and the Injil and the Qur'an.) affirms this promise and informs us that Allah has decreed this for His Most Honorable Self, and revealed it to His Messengers in His Glorious Books, the Tawrah that He sent down to Musa, the Injil that He sent down to `Isa, and the Qur'an that was sent down to Muhammad, may Allah's peace and blessings be on them all. Allah said next,

Neither the Torah nor the Gospel advocate or condone killing in the name of the God of the Bible.
The Quran therefore is in error when it states this to the contrary.

﴿وَمَنْ أَوْفَى بِعَهْدِهِ مِنَ اللَّهِ﴾

(And who is truer to his covenant than Allah) affirming that He never breaks a promise. Allah said in similar statements,

﴿وَمَنْ أَصْدَقُ مِنَ اللَّهِ حَدِيثاً﴾

(And who is truer in statement than Allah)﴿4:87﴾, and,

﴿وَمَنْ أَصْدَقُ مِنَ اللَّهِ قِيلاً﴾

(And whose words can be truer than those of Allah)﴿4:122﴾. Allah said next,

فَاسْتَبْشِرُواْ


It is more than clear from this surah, that Allah commands Muslims to fight in his cause, which equals to jihad.

Mohammed put into practice jihad exactly what Allah commanded,"He who fights that
Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."


and:

I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,'


Because Mohammed is said to be mankind's role model for all time, all Muslims are therefore commanded to exactly put into practice exactly what Mohammed did, for all time.

Mohammed killed people just because they did not accept him as a prophet, or accept his pagan god as the only god.

History shows, Islam expanded to other lands by conquering Muslim armies, who "proclaimed Islam over the existing inhabitants religion" oppressing them by taking their lands by force, and their women and children as slaves.

Muslims today have much to say about Non Muslims "oppressing" Muslims, but fail miserably by not recognising how their own teachings have oppression of Non Muslims by divine command riddled throughout their own scriptures!

As the Quran is just an invention of Mohammed, and not from any divine source, it reflects exactly all what was familiar to 7th century Arabian culture, which would include the concept of fighting and killing people for lands and booty. This is exactly what the Quran commands, and how Mohammed put its commands into practice.

Previous Biblical prophets,as do all religious leaders, put the focus on the salvation of the soul through spiritual warfare,which is the whole point of religion, not the physical warfare Mohammed practiced.

Mohammed's own actions then condemn him as the false prophet he truly is,and Muslims throughout history have been deceived into believing a warmongering tyrant, yourself being one of them, has their souls salvation in his hands. Fools!

How much more evidence do you need, to show how false and dangerous Islam is?

Quran 9.29
Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 065.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Musa : A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame
and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that
Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."

Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to
forgive him.)"

Volumn 009, Book 084, Hadith Number 057.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Ikrima : Some Zanadiqa (atheists) were brought to 'Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event,
reached Ibn 'Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's Apostle forbade it,
saying, 'Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire).' I would have killed them according to the statement
of Allah's Apostle, 'Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him.'"

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by manfred »

Dear manfred, please do think a little when you respond. The argument is not about existence of God nor about nature of God but about if God exists and if the quran is his book for guidance of mankind
.
Perhaps you like to follow your own advice: "The argument is not about the existence but about if God exists?" What kind of nonsense is that?

Suppose quran is a book from God then what should we expect in it?
We would expect no mistakes, for a start. We would expect not preaching of hate, either. We would not expect God to be like a spoilt Arab teenager. It is abundantly clear that the Qur’an has nothing whatever to do with God. It has a lot to do with a certain sex-mad violent Arab called Mohammed, though.
To make sense of it what do you think people need to do?
Read it. It says is it is CLEAR.
This is why it all keeps coming back to study of the book for oneself.
I did. It is the most disgusting book I have ever read, and I have once read some of “Mein Kampf” as well.

All I am doing is trying to see if the quran can be interpreted in such a way that it makes perfect sense. If I fail in doing that then either I am not educated enough or that the quran itself false.
It makes perfect sense to me. It is not a complicated text, it is a badly written, horribly violent and hateful text.

There is clear conflict between text of all scriptures and the belief and rituals of their followers. This is my main point.
That is a mute point, even if it were true. Islam is what Muslims believe, and not what you would like them to believe. It is also an obvious fallacy to assume that a religion is BASED on a book. Always, the beliefs and practices evolve first, and the texts come later. After all, there were Muslims before this wretched book, right?
I have interpreted quite a bit of the quranic text and I find that it has been grossly misinterpreted.
Yes. By you.
I have also explained all the questions people are asking here, this is why one has to go through my work to see what is ok and what is not ok. I don't think people have raised that many questions against the quran than I have.
You have, as always, avoided to answer any questions by anyone. You have not answered mine, either. Why would Allah need you to explain his book? Is he too dumb to say what he wants to say?
Only when I have completed my work on the quran I will be able to say anything 100% but so far I am convinced that the quran is no human work at all. It is because human works cannot be free of human mindset, attitude and behaviour, of which the quran is free.
What a load of nonsense. It is ENTIRELY a human book. It is a record of the various ploys Mohammed used to control his people. Mohammed did not even care to preserve the text. He did not care what happens to the Qur'an after he died.
In a world of man where personal gain is the only basis for existence of people the quran promotes brotherhood.
Where? Quotes? The Qur’an promotes “us and them”, the ”best of people and the worst of people. I can do well without that kind of brotherhood, as can mankind. The Islamic variety of “brotherhood” leads to suicide bombs and beheadings, to the killing of all who are different, like gays in Iran.
The quran again and again tells us to observe universal realities and learn from them. This is not said just once but hundreds of times in the quran. Do you know the implications of that?
No, it does not. The Qur’an tells us platitudes and misconceptions and suggests that they are some sort of proof. “Bees eat of all fruit”. Now, believe or else. It is an idiotic book. The concept of proof in the Qur'an is enough to show that it cannot be of any intelligent origin.
This is the science in the quran and it is a very challenging idea.

There is nothing in the text an average 7th century Arab would not have known.
I can see that the quran is no ordinary book that a man could have written in arabian desert 1400 years back.
Oh sure it is no ordinary book. It is a poisonous pamphlet of a maniac. It should have a health warning on it, and it is not suitable for children.

This is why I am continuing the work because if you ask me I am at brink of discovering something that has laid there hidden for centuries due ignorance of humanity but time is coming that mankind will start learning the message of God.
You will not find anything of God in the Qur’an. Start somewhere else. Most of all, start being still. In silence you can learn wisdom. You are displaying a breath-taking level of arrogance in saying that you and you alone can understand the Qur'an and all Muslims who ever lived, even Mohammed himself, got it all wrong.

Why would Allah allow his message to be corrupted by ALL Muslims, Mughal? Did he do it on purpose? Was it a mistake? Did he not care, like Mohammed? or was he powerless to prevent it?

It trust you will not answer that either...
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Mughal
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

You responded to my posts but avoided giving a specific answer.

Why do you favour the Koran and Islam instead of the New Testament and Jesus?

There are massive differences between the two and it is very clear to me that the New Testament and Jesus are infinitely more acceptable and credible than the Koran and Muhammad.

I am at a complete loss to understand why you support even your version of the Koran and Islam. I am also at a complete loss to understand why you would regard Muhammad as a prophet and that the Koran is the word of a god when it was dictated by Muhammad.

Please make your position more clear.

sum
Brother sum, it may help me understand your point about nt if you could explain some teachings of nt that you accept as divine truth. what is your overall understanding of the message of nt? for example, the purpose of creation and the way we find our world etc. how does nt teach to bring a change for the better? Is it possible to bring change that way? I mean does nt give us a program, a constitution and law to base our human society upon to help us organise and regulate towards some set goal? does nt set us any goals that we should accomplish in this life? are human being supposed to be better than animals to show they are humans?

regards and all the best.

Mughal
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

darth wrote:
Mughal wrote: http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/7/179/default.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/16/78/default.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/22/46/default.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/23/78/default.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.islamawakened.com/Quran/67/23/default.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I am not going to any of your links.

Let us look directly at the source, the quran.

Your stated “The Quran states that Allah has given mankind brain and senses and that they should use them properly for learning through observation and reflection. This was said 1400 years back.”

Where do any of these verses state that?

7.179 -And We have certainly created for Hell many of the jinn and mankind. They have hearts with which they do not understand, they have eyes with which they do not see, and they have ears with which they do not hear. Those are like livestock; rather, they are more astray. It is they who are the heedless.

This silly verse seem to imply that you need to understand with your heart....

16.78 -And Allah has extracted you from the wombs of your mothers not knowing a thing, and He made for you hearing and vision and intellect that perhaps you would be grateful.

This verse implies that the purpose of the intellect is for you to be grateful

22.46 -So have they not traveled through the earth and have hearts by which to reason and ears by which to hear? For indeed, it is not eyes that are blinded, but blinded are the hearts which are within the breasts.

Another verse that seems to imply that the heart is the organ by which to reason

23.78 - And it is He who produced for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful.

Another verse that talks of hearing, vision and heart. Nothing about using brains to reason, reflect etc.

67.23 - Say, "It is He who has produced you and made for you hearing and vision and hearts; little are you grateful."

Another repetetive verse.

In short, none of the verses you have provided state anything about brain and senses used properly for learning through observation or reflection.

Now, go back and try again. If you make any statement that quran states this or that, provide the verse. Don't waste our time telling us the quran is saying something that you cannot prove. Perhaps your idea of humaity undestanding the quran properly means making up things it does not say? :clap:
Dear darth, this is really funny. You wanted to go to source and then went straight for nonsense translations and I gave you link to more than three dozen translations which you rejected.

after all this you commented on words used by tranlators eg word heart. it shows you are not aware of how languages work. please look into dictionary and see what are the uses of word heart.

Here is what freedictionary says about word heart.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Heart" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

a. The vital center and source of one's being, emotions, and sensibilities.
b. The repository of one's deepest and sincerest feelings and beliefs: an appeal from the heart; a subject dear to her heart.
c. The seat of the intellect or imagination: the worst atrocities the human heart could devise.

Let me also explain to you what word SADAR means, it means main city of a population in a country.

http://uk.search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt= ... =yfp-t-702" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saddar,_Rawalpindi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;.

word saddar also means centre of something or power base. president of an organisation or country is called saddar. Something of a fundamental importance is also called saddar or sadr or sadar. Both heart and brain are interchangeable terms. Three words are used in the quran for heart or brain or mind a)qulb b)sadr and c)afida. Basically word QULB is from root QAAF, LAAM and BAA. It means something that flip flops. This is why INQLAAB means revolution. Because heart keeps taking in blood and pushing it out so it too is called qalb. Mind is something that changes due to new ideas and information that is why it too is called qalb. In arabic words do not have just meanings but concepts as well. because meanings of words are based on reasoning. Any word you come across ask yourself why it has certain meanings and then look for explanation and you will find it.

Let me try and explain the concept by taking word MUHSINEEN from the quran. It is from root HAA, SEEN and NOON. It means beauty. People who put thing right are called MUHSINEEN which is usually translated as righteous people. On the opposite side is word ZAALIMEEN from root ZWA, LAAM and MEEM. it means ugly. When things are in their proper place or are done properly they bring about beauty or balance or symmetry etc but when things are not in their right places or are not done properly or tye moved from their proper places they do not look beautiful or rather their beauty or balance is taken away. So when people inflict harm and destruction upon each other that brings about ugliness but word zulm is translated as oppression or transgression.

Likewise when word NOOR is used in the quran opposite to ZULMAT they mean light and darkness. Light shows beauty of things and darkness covers it up. Likewise when something is changed from what it actually is, its originality is no longer there ie it is masked by change just like darkness covers the thing so its beauty is no longer visible.

Today we are not used to learning languages properly in depth unless it is part of our professional qualifications. This is why we are dictionary people and very simple at that. This is why we are having discussion even about word heart because we have limited use of word heart for the blood pump in our chest. Whereas chest could be a wooden box as well. language is a funny thing.

We humans have a very, very long way to go before we actually reach the standard of knowledge the quran requires us to have. Even mullahs are very limited when it comes to knowledge of the quran.

regards and all the best.

Mughal
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

Dear frankie, Allah wants people to live in peace and harmony but if some people refuse to do so and try to oppress others then yes Allah leaves people to sort it between themselves.

Let me try and explain things through an example. Let say a father has some sons and he advises them to live in peace and harmony with each other. Now some children do as told but others refuse and start troubling those who are trying to live in peace then father tells them if my advice is not good enough for you then do as you please and suffer the consequences.

It will be stupid of father to say let the bad ones get rid of you the good ones. In order to bring law and order to this world we will have to organise and regulate our world and to do that we need some goal that is good for humanity and some terms and conditions that are good for humanity and anyone who goes against them should be made to suffer the consequences in order to save humanity from total chaos and destruction. In other words you cannot afford to give in to anti social elements in our human society. It is not only people with guns and bombs who are dangerous but also those who do their voodoo magic through politics and economics etc.

If you fight with me over something about which you have no right then you are asking for trouble, it is simple as that. I mean how much trouble will you be willing to tolerate from me? Will you let me take away your livelihood with a big smile on your face? If not then the quran is right in telling us not to let that happen because it will lead to terrible atrocities. Are you aware of poverty in the world that is resulting from the way we do our politics and set up our economic systems? This is nothing new but has been happening throughout human history which quran brings to our attention to learn from and change for the better for our better future.

So if you try, you may be able to see the context in which the quran talks about use of force. The concept of hell is not in the quran the way muslims and christians etc believe. God is not interested in punishing people in hell but for those who believe in that what difference does it make whether God punishes them in this life or the next or both? Also does it matter how God punishes people? Whether God sets people against each other or throws them all in hell should make no difference because punishment is punishment at the end of the day.

Religious explanations make no sense and they never did this is why we need to look at the scriptures to see what they are actually about. The quran explains why prophets were sent and how much they were troubled by religious people. People treated their priests like gods. Also priests told their ignorant people how to test prophets for the truth of their claims. Priest told them people who are sent by God are people who have supernatural powers that is why they can do miracles. The quran challenges these concepts and tells people be rational and not be stupid. This is why when people asked prophets for miracles because they were put up to this by their priests. The prophets said to them, we have only come to deliver the message of god we are just human beings like yourselves not supernatural nor with such powers. Our proof of divine messengership is our message that if you acted upon it, you will end up in a blissful dignified life otherwise you will keep getting deeper and deeper in troubles by your own doings. So much so that you could end up destroyed nation after nation by each other.

The very same message is repeated in the quran that you can come together on basis of given program, constitution and law to bring about a proper human community or you can ignore it and keep on fighting with each other and keep getting deeper and deeper into troubles. It is because fighting holds mankind back from unity, peace, progress and prosperity.

The question for us to ask is, why did priests put their people up to asking prophets for things that were impossible and served no purpose? So that people take true prophets as false and so the grip of priests over people remains tight. It is like the voodoo magic guy that he tells ignorant people do not go to doctor because he cannot do magical cures. So people instead of testing the doctor for his ideas start looking at him as a magic worker and since doctor cannot do magic they do not go to him this way livelihood of voodoo man is safe. To understand divine message needs knowledge not miracles and to learn needs big effort so the easy way out is to not to bother with new things and carry on with the way things were.

regards and all the best.

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by manfred »

Allah wants people to live in peace and harmony but if some people refuse to do so and try to oppress others then yes Allah leaves people to sort it between themselves.
Show me the verse where Allah says that…


If you fight with me over something about which you have no right then you are asking for trouble, it is simple as that. I mean how much trouble will you be willing to tolerate from me? Will you let me take away your livelihood with a big smile on your face?
OK, so now you are saying to people to shut up or else you will do something nasty. A very good argument that. I suppose you learnt that from old Mo? If you chose to vomit your nonsense all over this forum, anyone has every right to respond.

The concept of hell is not in the quran the way muslims and christians etc believe.
There are nearly 500 verses from 87 Suras that speak of Hell. This is just a sample:
Quran (40:71-72) - When the fetters and the chains shall be on their necks; they shall be dragged Into boiling water, then in the fire shall they be burned
Quran (22:19-21) - But as for those who disbelieve, garments of fire will be cut out for them; boiling fluid will be poured down on their heads; Whereby that which is in their bellies, and their skins too, will be melted; And for them are hooked rods of iron
Quran (4:56) - Those who disbelieve Our revelations, We shall expose them to the Fire. As often as their skins are consumed We shall exchange them for fresh skins that they may taste the torment Lo! Allah is ever Mighty, Wise
Quran (56:92-94) - But if he is of the rejecters, the erring, then the welcome will be boiling water and roasting at hell-fire
The quran challenges … and tells people be rational and not be stupid.
Where?
The very same message is repeated in the quran that you can come together on basis of given program, constitution and law to bring about a proper human community or you can ignore it and keep on fighting with each other and keep getting deeper and deeper into troubles. It is because fighting holds mankind back from unity, peace, progress and prosperity.
Islam makes people live in peace and prosperity? Is that what religion is all about? Money and an easy life? And Muslims over the world are of course the most prosperous, right? They is why they queuing up to live in Kaffir countries. And naturally they are the most peaceful too, as we have recently discovered in Nairobi. If Allah wanted his Muslims to all live in peace and prosperity why has he so miserably failed?

We are back at the question you keep refusing to answer.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

frankie
Posts: 2608
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by frankie »

Mughal:

How and why did Islam expand to other lands, and how following the example of its scriptures and "prophets "example are Muslims to do the same?

What is the criteria for a false prophet?

I am not interested in a convoluted reply, please stick to answering the questions as written.

sum
Posts: 6561
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

Your quote -

Brother sum, it may help me understand your point about nt if you could explain some teachings of nt that you accept as divine truth. what is your overall understanding of the message of nt?

I do not believe that there are any divine teachings as I do not believe in any god. However, I do believe that the words of Jesus are the best for all mankind to follow. He is alleged to have said the following which is now called the "Golden Rule" - "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you".

This would serve all of humanity better than anything in the Koran or the words and deeds of Muhammad. Do you agree with the Golden Rule and do you believe that the teachings in the New Testament come from a god?

sum

Mughal
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

frankie wrote:Mughal:

How and why did Islam expand to other lands, and how following the example of its scriptures and "prophets "example are Muslims to do the same?

What is the criteria for a false prophet?

I am not interested in a convoluted reply, please stick to answering the questions as written.
Dear frankie, in the Quranic context word NABI which is translated in english as prophet but is not the right translation and word RASOOL translated as messenger are interchangeable terms. Word nabi means the person who receive information from a source and word rasool means a person who delivers the message he receives from another source to whoever it is supposed to be delivered. When we say NABI ALLAH, it means the person who receives message or news from Allah. When we say RASOOL Allah, it means a person who delivers the message of Allah to mankind. The message received from Allah and delivered to people is called a book. A divine book could be of containing less or more information.

Only and only divine book is proof that a person is divine prophet and messenger nothing else. This is why anyone who claims he is a divine messenger and has no such book from God that proves to be from God through information it contain cannot be a prophet from God.

The purpose of revelation is not to educate people from scratch but to guide those who have realised that they need guidance. Once people have reached at a certain stage in self awareness and awareness of the world in which they live then if they realise by observing and learning from the world that there is a need for guidance then divine scripture is there waiting for them to open it up and see what it says about the world in which they live. Then if they find the message sensible enough that they are convince it is really the message from on high then they can commit to it and spread it so that others also become aware of it and turn to it if they wish.

It means anyone who claims to be a divine messenger yet has no scripture from God is a false prophet. However it does not mean that a true prophet is a true prophet for anyone till one examines properly what he is sent with. This is why the Quran forces its claimant of divinity to declare the truth about previous messengers who were sent before muhammad. Likewise in scriptures God sent before the quran prophets of old were told in their messages that there is going to come a messenger after them and that when he comes their followers should join him. This is why people who were already expecting a messenger in time of muhammad joined him after tye were satisfied with proof he showed them in form of the quran. Since people who had true scriptures joined muhammad the old scriptures became obsolete. Those who were believers only in the name they were brought up on diet of story books which are still around today inform of religious scriptures.

Today if you look at muslims they hardly know the quran and they hardly talk about the quran it is mostly other stuff upon which they have brought about another religion in the name of islam that has nothing to do with actual teachings of the quran. Islam as a religion was created by mullahs soon after the death of the prophet when imperialist took over the rule. What we call islam today is only a religion but the quran is book of deen. The point whether islam is a deen or mazhab has been debated hotly by ummah always. However islam the mazhab always succeeded because it always had backing of states and imperial powers and people who wanted to rule the world or masses. So you can see today we have only and only mullah based interpretations of the quran because rulers never allowed individual interpretations of the quran. Had the quran been allowed to be interpreted by learned individuals the world would have been a very different place.

This is why if anyone wants to know the true message of the quran then one has to interpret the quran oneself with help of arabic dictionaries and tafaseer. Tafaseer were invented to divert message of the quran from a book of deen to book of religion but dictionaries remained the same and they used the same dictionaries it helps us to see what were the original meanings of the words used in the quran. What writers of tafaseer did was looked up dictionaries and chose those meanings of the words which suited them for imperial purposes.

I have given many examples of those words in my posts on this forum and even on this thread. Just for sake of it, take the hadith about paradise lies under the feet of your mother. In the quranic context all people are bound by brotherhood so they are called an ummah ie mother nation. What the actual message of the hadith is that blissful life lies in unity of a people as sharing and caring nation. No matter what your mother alone cannot make your life a paradise if the rest of society is utterly corrupt and uncaring or is abusive. This is how actual message of the quran has been masked by mullahs voodoo magic.

Mullahs have turned ummah toward useless ritual of prayer by interpreting word SALAAH as prayer. The actual word means contact or staying in touch and the message is be an ummah as a strong network of community knowing about each other like a body knows about itself. Being fully aware of each other and being there for each other. The prayer ritual was actually gathering of people at local level, national level and international level to see what was happening in the world with the members of the ummahs and at a wider scale in the nonmuslim world as well. That is because muslims were supposed to be ensuring that no one was oppressing and suppressing anyone anywhere in the world. The quran is not about who believes and who does not but who lives his life according to terms and conditions set for humanity for living peacefully. You can do no harm to anyone by believing hundreds of gods but if you did anything to inflict harm in the name of those gods then you will be held accountable. Islam as a deen is all about proper management of human population and resources so that humanity grows and prospers.

imperialist did not want to be like other human beings who behaved themselves so they looked for opportunities to rise to power so that they could fulfil their ambitions and desires and as they got chances they took over human race and led it to its destruction. This story starts with adam and iblees and continues to date. However the quran tells us that as sense prevails the ignorance will vanish and mankind will ultimately succeed in establishing deen and then concentrate on the next set goal which is exploring and conquering the universe.

The quranic story of human creation is very interesting because according to the quran adam is not the first human being but the first proper manager of people and resources approved by Allah. Before him people were busy shedding blood and to stop that bloodshed humanity was told to organise into a community that is based upon guidance of God. Adam was not created from the dust in the sense mullahs tell us. mullahs have messed up the quranic message by interpreting it according to their foolishness. Only uneducated people sit around them or those who take advantage of them. of course they are useful to some degree eg they keep quranic text and its meanings alive by teaching kids the quran and arabic but that is all. Rest is beyond their state of knowledge.

As for expansion of islam, it expanded because of the quranic message. This become very obvious looking at the state of the world in which it was at the time . The two major powers like rome and persia were constantly at war and all people want to escape under these circumstances from such places. At that time when you get some message of hope you run to it. People have been migrating throughout times and places to escape bad situations. If you are living in constant fear and get the news of a bit better place you run to it.

Wars were already there and muhammad was born in that kind of world so he struggled to put things right according to message of the quran like prophets before him. You will agree that imperialism is always a bad news for humanity because kings and emperors dictate laws for people under their thumb that suit them and people want to escape them and if anyone gives them a better chance they support him. On one hand people were oppressed and suppressed and used and abused and on the other there was message of hope. Together things worked in favour of divine messenger so he was able to establish the kingdom of God. Later muslims also turned tyrants like the tyrants they defeated and so world once again fell under darkness of tyranny and remains so to date but hope is rising all the time for the better world because people have managed to improve their world. This is why absolute monarchy and imperialism is gone. However mindset, attitude and behaviour still remains in the world against which we should continue our fight.

Just as power of kings has ended so has power of mullahs ended. Today there is another power in place and that is imperialism by money lenders. You will agree that money talks today and humanity is in terrible state of existence due to it.

We have yet to become truly democrats because democracy is nothing if only rich and powerful can be heads of states and governments who are brought into power through backing of bankers and multinationals. This is why all laws are still biased against a human being and are made in favour of bankers and multinationals.

This is last battle before we really bring about a world that is based upon proper foundations as dictated in the quran. If anyone could look at what the quran states and where the word is heading one will see what is coming our way. However to prevent this change governments are supporting religions more and more and the idea is to keep people in the dark far as long as they can. The message of scriptures therefore needs to be revisited by man in the street to challenge mullaism or priesthood. Today politicians and priests are working for money lenders unlike before when priests used to work for kings and then kings used to work for priests when they grabbed the power from them. Today all power rests with wealthy people and states and they use politicians and mullahs as it suits them this is why we have long way to go before humanity really becomes free of use and abuse and a true brotherhood of mankind.

When that happens all of us will open our hearts and minds for each other trying to truly accommodate each other and bring back the world adam was given in the beginning. That is how children of adam will become true human beings by rising above animals proving that thye are true human beings that God wanted them to be.

People can do all they like but plan of God for mankind will not fail and our observation confirm the message of God. The real journey of humanity to blissful and dignified life will begin when all unite and plan things together in a sensible way and work hard together to make themselves successful a species. So successful that God and mankind become consistent with each other.

The point of discussion is to see where a person is coming from ie in which context one is talking to another person. Otherwise there is no discussion because we have not idea what we each are talking about, this is why it important to see how overall picture looks like from a particular point of view. Random talking is useless and a waste of time.

It is therefore important to realise value of meaningful discussions. We are babies sitting with a jigsaw puzzle throwing pieces at each other without having any idea what is all this we are doing. There is no point is discussing mullahs islam or christiasnity or hinduism or whatever unless we want to know what is alternative point of view and if there is anything that is offered to replace one thing with another. today we need more than ever before a common goal to work towards and that goal has to be something worthwhile that is able to satisfy our minds in every way eg psychologically, biologically and sociologically. It is time to look at ourselves as a part of globe.

regards and all the best.

Mughal
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

Your quote -

Brother sum, it may help me understand your point about nt if you could explain some teachings of nt that you accept as divine truth. what is your overall understanding of the message of nt?

I do not believe that there are any divine teachings as I do not believe in any god. However, I do believe that the words of Jesus are the best for all mankind to follow. He is alleged to have said the following which is now called the "Golden Rule" - "Do unto others as you would have others do unto you".

This would serve all of humanity better than anything in the Koran or the words and deeds of Muhammad. Do you agree with the Golden Rule and do you believe that the teachings in the New Testament come from a god?

sum
Dear sum, I will have to differ with you that all humanity needs is golden rule. Humanity needs a lot more than mere golden rule. It needs goals, it needs guidelines but most of all it needs to educate itself with help of each other to realise what golden rule is all about. The golden rule is universal thing in all the scriptures not just the NT. But because you have christian background so you look to bible for reference. That is fine I am not against any scripture but priests who misinterpret their scriptures to fool their masses. I think if people interpreted their scriptures in light of universal realities all people will unite soon because overall message from all scriptures remains a good one for mankind.

This is why I think this site needs to educate people who try to fool us not scriptures or good values or principles. if we cornered mullahs and their backers you will see a sea of change in the world for the better. This will reinstate faith of human beings in God and humanity and that will help us in a big way to better our world together.

regards and all the best.

User avatar
pr126
Posts: 5354
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 9:24 am
Location: Blighty

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by pr126 »

Utopia
Since the beginning of time people have dreamed of a perfect society. Those of us who have been on the planet for a while realize the folly of a utopian society. How can highly imperfect people construct a perfect society? If you accept the premise that the human race is extremely flawed the pipe dream of utopia vanishes.

Most utopian movements are relatively innocuous. It is only when you marry a violent ideology to the quest for perfection that serious, deadly repercussions occur. Unfortunately, at least three such movements have arisen since 1917. All three movements have believed if you eliminated a certain class of human beings utopia would materialize out of the mist of human history. The consequences have proven to be horrific!
“Every time man tries to create a heaven on earth, he ends up by creating hell on earth.”
Read on...
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by manfred »

I am still waiting for an answer:

You claim that ALL Muslims, including Mohammed have seriously misinterpreted the Qur'an and completely misunderstood what you claim is God's message.

If this is true we need to know:

a) Could Allah not explain himself better? Is Allah unable to provide a message to mankind without your help?

b) Why did Allah allow such travesty with his own message? There are three possibilities: 1)Allah is intrinsically evil and did this in order to lead people astray, so that he has an excuse to torture them in hell. 2) Allah was powerless to prevent it. 3) Allah did not care about his message and what would become of it.

c) How come that ONLY YOU, in 1400 years understood the Qur'an correctly. This is a truly fantastic claim, making you far superior to Mohammed who you say did not understand the Qur'an. For this extraordinary claim of yours you obstinately refuse to provide proof.

You are persistently avoiding to answer any questions but through about piles of fantastic claims.

Here is some more nonsense you need to sort out:
Only and only divine book is proof that a person is divine prophet and messenger nothing else. This is why anyone who claims he is a divine messenger and has no such book from God that proves to be from God through information it contain cannot be a prophet from God.
What book did Adam have? David? Solomon? Moses? Lut? Noah? Jesus?
It means anyone who claims to be a divine messenger yet has no scripture from God is a false prophet.
So it means that ALL prophets are false, according to you, including Mohammed who had no scripture when he first claimed to be a prophet.
The quranic story of human creation is very interesting because according to the quran adam is not the first human being but the first proper manager of people and resources approved by Allah.
The references to the creation story in the Quran are like an eight year old kid trying to re-tell the beginning of Genesis, and only remarkable for their pathetic style, contradictions, lack of distinct message beyond "obey Mohammed". You also seem to be unaware that "Adam" is not a name of a person as such, but the Hebrew word for a human being.
We have yet to become truly democrats
Islam is incompatible with any form of democracy. "Allah" alone rules through Shariah law.
We are babies sitting with a jigsaw puzzle throwing pieces at each other without having any idea what is all this we are doing.
No, we are telling you that we are quite sure we have understood Mohammed and the Qur'an, thank you, and your deceptive games may work with those who never looked at the text, but not with people here.

You are trying to pick up Mohammed's old glove puppet and you are aping his pathetic behaviour, trying to make the puppet say what you want and thereby controlling others who will afford you some kind of special, semi-divine status. The thing you accuse the "priests" blanket styole is exactly what you are doing yourself. 1400 years later, you are fooling nobody.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

User avatar
ygalg
Posts: 5427
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 11:51 am
Location: israel
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by ygalg »

Mughal wrote: Dear ygalg, my question to you is who created all these languages? Not God, did he? Just like things people create eg tables, chairs, rockets and plans and buildings so they created so many languages.
people develop languages.
What God did was chose the language that could best serve his purpose. So blaming God for things we people do is not right.
god responsible koran be understood for all times and generations, he didn't created it for his own personal use. asserted it was meant for all humanity, not just arabs.

jews considered hebrew, the holy language. hence the torah written in hebrew. thus it already set. kroan should've being written in hebrew.

competent god doesn't have multiple choices or considerations unlike humans. I referring to your assertion "could best serve his purpose", otherwise it suggest god is incompetent.

the idea it was meant for all humanity, should have met with positive results, that koran can be written in all existed languages properly and properly interpreted. a competent god would let us to understand proficiently.

koran does not corresponding to competent god, hence koran was not written by god, but by men.
The responsibility God has taken is that of giving us good advice but because we are free will creatures
what free will? with omniscient god everything already designated. within this realm our choices are false. we're like cartoon or movie characters.

but even without god, we don't really have a free will, the future within this realm however undecided.
“a true believer as a person so fanatically committed to a cause that no amount of reality can make him abandon it” Eric Hoffer

sum
Posts: 6561
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

You are wrong. All religions have the Golden Rule except one - Islam. Islam does not extend the Golden Rule to non-muslims.

Islam does not provide a goal for mankind except for establishing Islamic dominance and worship of Allah. Please show me where Islam informs mankind of its ultimate goal and direction beyond its dominance and worship of Allah. Islam indicates no long term goal at all.

The Golden Rule puts everyone on the same footing irrespective of belief or culture. Does Islam put everyone on the same footing? No. All you have to do is read chapter 9 of the Koran to see how Islam does not abide by the Golden Rule. Which would you choose to be your guide - the Golden Rule or chapter 9 of the Koran?

sum

Mughal
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

pr126 wrote:Utopia
Since the beginning of time people have dreamed of a perfect society. Those of us who have been on the planet for a while realize the folly of a utopian society. How can highly imperfect people construct a perfect society? If you accept the premise that the human race is extremely flawed the pipe dream of utopia vanishes.

Most utopian movements are relatively innocuous. It is only when you marry a violent ideology to the quest for perfection that serious, deadly repercussions occur. Unfortunately, at least three such movements have arisen since 1917. All three movements have believed if you eliminated a certain class of human beings utopia would materialize out of the mist of human history. The consequences have proven to be horrific!
“Every time man tries to create a heaven on earth, he ends up by creating hell on earth.”
Read on...

Dear pr126, if we were talking about things randomly then you will be right but because we have a program, constitution and law on one hand and practical real life examples on the other so utopia does not apply here. If something can be seen working in real life at a smaller scale then it is possible to expand the idea at a bigger scale and it will still work.

In real life we have families and villages where people decide to live as a community and they have been successful for generations. problems arise only when odd people come and try to destroy community spirit among a people. This is why we are destroying not only communities but families as well and days are not far when one person will be at throat of others. All this is not result of developing world but developing world by breaking down human values. If we balanced things then we will do ourselves a great good otherwise we are heading for a big crash as human population is getting fed up with each other due to the way we do politics and deal with economic related issues. Cut throat competition and undermining businesses are leading more and more people to depression day by day because human beings can only take so much pressure that keeps building up all around them. All this pressure does not need to be there if all worked together.

we never heard of crime committed at such rate and such violence as we do now days. all because people cannot afford to live despite doing all they can because existing political and economic systems are failing them very badly.

We may not be able to have a perfect human society but we can certainly have a society that is much better than what we have today.

regards and all the best.

User avatar
manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by manfred »

In real life we have families and villages where people decide to live as a community and they have been successful for generations. problems arise only when odd people come and try to destroy community spirit among a people.
Ah, like Mohammed destroyed Mecca, for example? He was an odd guy who came along and made many people's lives a misery, and killed many others.

We may not be able to have a perfect human society but we can certainly have a society that is much better than what we have today.
Without Islam things would certainly be better. So stop defending the abominations spewed on the pages of that filthy book you claim to be from God. It isn't. It's Mo's equivalent to Mao's little red book, or Hitler's Mein Kampf.

So far all people trying to to build a perfect society ended up building hideous distortions of such things, and made many people suffer. The last such noble attempt was communism. It failed utterly, and millions of people died because of it.

Now you come along, brandishing that nasty old book and try the same. A brand new world. What rubbish. You cannot but fail. If you don't like the world around you, you can always emigrate or become a hermit. Now you want even those desperate last choices to evaporate. Islamic fascism for all.

If you want a better society, then neither Islam nor the Qur'an could possibly help.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

Mughal
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

ygalg wrote:
Mughal wrote: Dear ygalg, my question to you is who created all these languages? Not God, did he? Just like things people create eg tables, chairs, rockets and plans and buildings so they created so many languages.
people develop languages.
What God did was chose the language that could best serve his purpose. So blaming God for things we people do is not right.
god responsible koran be understood for all times and generations, he didn't created it for his own personal use. asserted it was meant for all humanity, not just arabs.

jews considered hebrew, the holy language. hence the torah written in hebrew. thus it already set. kroan should've being written in hebrew.

competent god doesn't have multiple choices or considerations unlike humans. I referring to your assertion "could best serve his purpose", otherwise it suggest god is incompetent.

the idea it was meant for all humanity, should have met with positive results, that koran can be written in all existed languages properly and properly interpreted. a competent god would let us to understand proficiently.

koran does not corresponding to competent god, hence koran was not written by god, but by men.
The responsibility God has taken is that of giving us good advice but because we are free will creatures
what free will? with omniscient god everything already designated. within this realm our choices are false. we're like cartoon or movie characters.

but even without god, we don't really have a free will, the future within this realm however undecided.
Dear ygalg, god has created this world for his purpose and set up everything for that end. Each participant therefore plays its role in there including god. Till people work out what was the purpose of creation and it makes sense in light of real world other things cannot be decided or worked out. All I have done is explained the whole thing in light of quranic teachings and universal realities and they make perfect sense. If anyone else thinks that any other scripture does the same why not share it so that we could compare the two?

It is silly for anyone to think because others did things wrong way so this thing which is done the right way should also be rejected just because of that.

God did not create people unable to understand things but if they do not use their god given faculties that is up to themselves because they are freewill creatures. God never expected anything of people which was beyond them. A child is not expected to know the scripture but a grown up is but if one does not that is not fault of god. It is fault of humanity as a whole because it ought to look after its members properly. If we do not know scriptures properly it is because of ourselves that we either do not teach them properly to each other or we do not learn them properly from each other.

As for language of any scripture that is not really important because throughout time people developed existing languages and came up with new ones. No language was there for all times that is why god has been sending scriptures in languages that were suitable for a time period. The quran was sent in arabic because it was the language for this time period. However the message can be translated into any existing language if humanity wants it. Even if the quran was sent in hebrew it would have been useless for those who are not bothered to know the scripture. Even arabs are not bothered to know what is actually the message of the quran. Just because one has books in a language does not mean people will read them. It is because it depends on what we humans have made of our human society. Today kids are more and more into computer games and have little idea what the world is all about. Technology is a great thing but only if it is used for benefiting mankind. War machine is very powerful in today's world so depends on what people want and where they want to take their future generations. If we all tried to move the world in the right direction then things will go in that direction but if we chose to take it the wrong way round then that too is possible for us to do.

As for free will, we are limited by two different sets of laws a) natural laws and b) moral laws. We can overcome laws of nature by being creative by acting on basis of moral laws. This is how I understand the quranic text. Natural laws have us tear each other apart for our own gain at expense of each other but moral laws help us overcome that and be willing to sacrifice ourselves for each other. This is why we can overcome natural world by uniting and working out ways of doing that. Human beings are special creatures according to the quran with a lot of potential to change themselves and this universe.

regards and all the best.

Mughal
Posts: 867
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

You are wrong. All religions have the Golden Rule except one - Islam. Islam does not extend the Golden Rule to non-muslims.

Islam does not provide a goal for mankind except for establishing Islamic dominance and worship of Allah. Please show me where Islam informs mankind of its ultimate goal and direction beyond its dominance and worship of Allah. Islam indicates no long term goal at all.

The Golden Rule puts everyone on the same footing irrespective of belief or culture. Does Islam put everyone on the same footing? No. All you have to do is read chapter 9 of the Koran to see how Islam does not abide by the Golden Rule. Which would you choose to be your guide - the Golden Rule or chapter 9 of the Koran?

sum
Dear sum, I am talking about my understanding of the quran not so called muslims who never read the quran in their life and live on nonsense make beliefs. I know what i am talking about.

The quran is not about any people but principles and it decides matter on that basis. For example, there is a big difference between who are defined as muslims by the quran and those who claim to be muslims.

The Quran does not accept harmful and destructive people as muslims because it defines muslims can only be such people who are constructive and do things to benefit mankind. Of course there are always grey areas when it comes to human judgement and application of laws. The quran does not allow oppression and suppression by some people of others. Retaliation is advised to bring the balance back and over stepping is not allowed.

The quran is not only about golden rule but also to make sure it works. If a powerful person or country harms a weaker person or country it is only right that such an act is not allowed to stand otherwise golden rule will have no place in human society because without moral control laws of nature take over and world works like a jungle full of animals in human form. Islam is not about sound bites but about rules that bite.

You are right that golden rule puts all on equal footing but are people in the real world on equal footing? No they are not. There is a lot inconsistency in the world and people are complaining against each throughout the world. It is because ultimately it is politics and economics that decide how world works and the world is set on foundation of double standard. All of us complain that there is one system for rich and powerful and another for weak and poor. You and I may well be on same side but a lot of others are not. How do we make anti social elements behave themselves so that sense of golden rule settles in and becomes useful? I do not think the answer is, let them have it their way, do you? So carrot and stick has to be the way to handle things and yes there is a lot of room for mistakes because we human being are not yet experienced handlers of such situations. However we will get there one day.

I have interpreted chapter 9 but I will advise reading of the quran with help of dictionaries than translations. Even translation can be used as dictionaries because same word if used in the quran in different places and is translated in different ways then that can help see how the translator has translated the quran and why in a particular verse. I have completed first 38 chapters of the quran so far. That is nearly 23 parts out of total 30.

The quran states very clearly islam is the goal or deen advised by Allah so it has to be supreme because it is advice of Allah. Islam means peace not war. So working towards establishing peace in the world should not be a problem for anyone. Also there is no worship in the quran. Look up word IBAADAH in dictionary. Adbullah means man of god a person who does will of god or abides by his program, constitution and law. The person who serves purpose of Allah. The question is, why Allah created mankind? So that man appreciates and values his creativity and not band his head on the floor as if there is no tomorrow. You cannot appreciate God by ignorance but by knowledge. This is why he has bestowed on humanity a very powerful brain that cannot be compared to rest of creatures. So god expects of us brain work not head banging on the floor.

regards and all the best.

Post Reply