has humanity understood the quran properly?

[Centaur]

Dear Centaur, I never said I agree with mullahs interpretations of the quran. Moreover it matters not what mullahs say or do, what matters is, can any mullahs disprove this interpretation on basis of language or any other people on basis of ideology?

Just because people do not agree with my understanding of the quran does not matter because they do not agree with each other's interpretations of the book either. So your point takes us nowhere.

The problem is that these mullahs know their Qur'an more than you and your deceptive translations, and this has been something they follow and PRACTICE since the days of Mohammed as well as including Mohammed. There can be communist ideologues with differing opinions, but you can easily say something is way off, if someone try to rewrite the dogma according to his wishful thinking.

[frankie]

Mughal:

Just because people do not agree with my understanding of the quran does not matter because they do not agree with each other's interpretations of the book either. So your point takes us nowhere.

How can a book said to come from Allah,who is an alleged omniscient being, be so mis understood by humanity?

And how can a book said to come from a divine source be so mis understood by humans, that they resort to killing each other by the tens of thousands, all because they read in their holy book that fighting, and killing and getting killed for the sake of their god is prescribed?

Beats me,Mughal,how about you?

Quran 9.111
Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme. telling them that is the supreme achievement to do kill and get killed in their god's cause?


Quran 2.216
Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

[Hombre]

Dear manfred, my advice for all of you here is, please start studying the quranic text for yourselves in order to be satisfied about it..

Dear Manfred, please forgive our "scholar" mughal. What here really means to say.

First, accept everything written in the Quran, before reading - with no question, or doubts. THEN, "study" it. That what the Quran was meant to be.

[Mughal]

sum kindly provided a a very interesting piece of writing by written some years ago....

In that you say:

The 2nd point is thatif The Quran was sufficient as divine guidance, why there was developed the literature called Hadith?Hadith is another most fundamental source of Islamic faith 2nd only to the Quran. The Hadith collections were written down more than a couple of centuries after the death of the prophet. Not only that but people who collected these reports rejected many folds more than they accepted. So much for the claim that islam is a perfect religion. So one can see that Islamic sources have a history and if they have a history that only shows their gradual development with time and not a sudden revelation by some God.

http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtop ... 22&t=15505

So you at least at one point could see clearly that this notion of the Qur'an being any form of clear "guidance" as it claims is just plain humbug.

You say BECAUSE it was NOT CLEAR ENOUGH the hadith industry sprang up.

Now you say somehow you alone understand this silly book properly and everybody else is too stupid. Apparently you still believe is is NOT CLEAR "guidance".

Again, Mughal: How good is any kind of "guidance" that cannot be generally and easily understood?

So was Allah unable or unwilling to write something properly? The Qur'an cannot even tell a story coherently.

Dear manfred, when we talk about anything it has a context in which it has to be taken. If we simply talk about detail of something it means nothing at all. The author of the quran talks about things in context of proof or proving, in context of a program, in context of a constitution in context of guidelines for formation of laws, in context of goals, in context of responsibilities or rights etc etc.

If you have a child and you want to give guidelines to a child, there is a limit which you cannot cross and that limit is purpose in mind for the advice offered and the capability of recipient of the advice. Even though parents can teach kids a lot but children take time for learning. Likewise God is God but man is man.

What I find strange is that you people keep going back to questions which have no useful answers one way or the other and we do not need those kind of questions and answers which lead us nowhere.

The point should be to discuss the quran and its context about things it talks about. That is how it can be proven or disproven. If someone gives you a bike to examine to see if it is ok you do not go and start examining a car and starting talking about faults in that. No matter how long you talk about car the bike still awaits your examination of it.

We humans are very limited beings and we have a very limited space to work in, so all we can do is make best use of what we have to see which way it makes better sense for us. The quran is all about purpose of creation and how people should live in this world. The challenge for us is to prove that ways we adopt for living in this world are better than that told in the quran. This we cannot know unless we understand our own adopted ways of life and the way told by the quran and then put them side by side and see which is better or worse. It is like we have two maps for building a bridge and all we need to do is see which one is more suitable for us.

The quran tells us unite as a brotherhood of humanity to live in peace and harmony so that you could progress and be prosperous. Don't divide and be rivals and enemies to each other by inflicting harms and destructions upon each other for personal gains at the expense of each other.

It lays down goals and guidelines or terms and condition for mankind to agree upon. Anyone who does not agree with the set goals and terms and conditions is told to come up with his own better ones. The quran tells prophet to say to people who disagree with him, bring a book better than the quran and I will along with you will follow that one if you do not want to follow the quran. Yet kufaar did not bring another better book than the quran and and did not follow the quran either and these are the kinds of people who are trouble makers who do not go along anything that is good for rest of mankind so they spoil everything for everyone instead. This is why when that happens then antisocial element must be brought under control or left alone they will create havoc in the land. The quran is not interested in labels but what actions they take and what results from those actions and how it effects humanity at large.

This is why countries have wmds and large armies because they feel threatened by each other. Muslim countries in them are only 50+ but rest of the 150 countries are nonmuslim. Most dangerous weapons are in the countries that claim to be civilised yet they are holding guns to heads of other states to loot their resources by using and abusing their people through unfair trade and economic set-ups. This kind of set-up is not going to work for very long and weapons cannot help people against each other but good relationship can. That is what quran tells us and the message of quran could be better spread by countries that are doing ok for the time being. This can secure their future but if they do not do so then centre of power is going to shift with next couple of generations at the most. Once countries in power lose their power and others arrive at helm of power to use and abuse them then it will be too late to regret. There is whole world waiting to take its revenge and any opportunity could trigger the situation at any time. This is why we will be better off making up to each other and starting up a new world order under the terms and conditions proposed by the quran for purpose of unity, peace, progress and prosperity.

Competition is very a bad idea when it is spiralling us all downhill but which way the world goes and whether peacefully or through wars all depends upon our own learning, thinking power and imaginations. We can therefore only ignore the message of the quran if we want to end up destroyed by each other.

regards and all the best.

[pr126]

Mughal wrote:

The quran tells us unite as a brotherhood of humanity to live in peace and harmony so that you could progress and be prosperous. Don't divide and be rivals and enemies to each other by inflicting harms and destructions upon each other for personal gains at the expense of each other.

Really? REALLY?

Quran 5:51
"O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

Qur'an (3:28)
"You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide."

Quran 3:118
Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them..."

Quran 9:23
"O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers"

There are many more like these. The Quran is full of it.

[pr126]

Mughal wrote:

This is why we will be better off making up to each other and starting up a new world order under the terms and conditions proposed by the quran for purpose of unity, peace, progress and prosperity.

Islamic rule with sharia, world wide. Wow! Shades of megalomania?

Look at ANY Muslim dominated country, and see the desolation, the miseries and failures -- political, economic, social, intellectual, and moral -- of Muslim peoples and polities. All because of Islam.

This should be the New World Order?

The whole planet to be like Afghanistan, Somalia, Sudan, ruled by the likes of the Taliban, Boko Haram, Al Shabbab, Hizbollah, Hamas, etc.?
You want to turn the whole planet into rubble and ashes and mountains of corpses?
Because that's what would happen if Islam ruled the world.


Message from Dan

A cautionary tale... I recommend all to read it.

[manfred]

Who is the author of the Qur'an, Mughal?
Also, one of your proofs you say the Qur'an contains would be most welcome, as in quite some number of years I have not found a single one.

[Hombre]

Mughal,
Ali Sina is offering $50,000 to any Muslim who will prove his (Ali) views and evidence in Islam are wrong. Hey, here you have a chance to make 50 big ones

Why hadn't challenge him. You are so convinced with your knowledge of the Quran and its hidden messages. I am sure Ali with his breathtaking knowledge of this book will give you and good run. As we all know he is a former Muslim, so he would be "halal" to argue against.

[SAM]

The Holy Qur’an, it is a source of advice, healing , guidance and mercy for those who have faith and the process of soul searching.

[frankie]

SAM:

The Holy Qur’an, it is a source of advice, healing , guidance and mercy for those who have faith and the process of soul searching

You give a very confident stance on what you believe is true.

Bearing in mind what you have said, how do verses telling Muslims to fight and kill in a gods name help with a Muslims "soul searching"?

I put this question to Mughal,which he has failed to answer, perhaps you can.


How can a book said to come from Allah,who is an alleged omniscient being, be so mis understood by humanity?

And how can a book said to come from a divine source be so mis understood by humans, that they resort to killing each other by the tens of thousands, all because they read in their holy book that fighting, and killing and getting killed for the sake of their god is prescribed?

Beats me,Mughal(SAM),how about you?

Quran 9.111
Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme. telling them that is the supreme achievement to do kill and get killed in their god's cause?


Quran 2.216
Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

[Mughal]

Mughal,
Ali Sina is offering $50,000 to any Muslim who will prove his (Ali) views and evidence in Islam are wrong. Hey, here you have a chance to make 50 big ones

Why hadn't challenge him. You are so convinced with your knowledge of the Quran and its hidden messages. I am sure Ali with his breathtaking knowledge of this book will give you and good run. As we all know he is a former Muslim, so he would be "halal" to argue against.

Dear Hombre, ali sina opposes mullahs' interpretation of the quran and hadith,not actual quran and hadith. As I have explained mullahs have their own versions of islam and that is a well known fact. I have explained how that came about. The original islam is in the text of the quran in quranic context.

Real islam is all about a proper human community that does not allow any kind of negative divisions.

1)That islam is not about banging your head on the floor and waving your behind in the air, thinking you are pleasing Allah that way by humiliating yourself when Allah says he has created you as an honourable creature and explains why that is the case.

2)That islam is not about business for profit because it is based upon concept of brotherhood of humanity and if you take everyone as part of you then you do not do business for profit with them. You do not try to dominate each other for undermining each other instead you cooperate and coordinate your efforts and complement each other.

3) this book clearly states goals and guidelines for people to unite upon and work together for.

4) so jihad is all about making effort to understand the divine message properly and passing on that message till all people have the message and once the message is given due attention sooner or later people will come to the quran and base their human society upon its provided platform.

5) ideologies do have supporters and opposers so does the quranic ideology but it depends who is opposing it and why and who is supporting it and why.

6) false propaganda is part of deception, so people need to be able to judge truth from falsehood.

7)if there is a proper way to put pieces of information together that make perfect sense then any other explanation offered is false that shows the information does not fit together. When there is a way to cook a food properly then cooking it any other way the end result of which is terribly cooked food then one is not doing the right thing or is going about it the wrong way.

8) Quranic islam will always prove true against any other ideology while proving any other ideology false. True means something that fits the purpose and false means something that does not. This is what the quran calls HAQQ=truth and BAATIL=falsehood.

10) Can anyone compare quranic islam to any other ideology? No, not unless one understands both the ideologies properly that are to be compared. Same is true about all versions of islam. This is why it is important to know versions of islam that are said to be ok according to their mullahs.


So if anyone wants to challenge the quran, he has no choice but to see what is actually written in the quran and why.

Only a stupid person will support thoughts and actions that are harmful and destructive for humanity.


Our world is divided by people who are ambitious harmful and destructive way because they want to dominate others and become their masters instead of living as a part of human brotherhood. This is why they always look for ways to cause troubles in the world so that humanity does not live in peace and prosper. It is not entirely their fault but also of masses that do not educate themselves to be able see through their agendas.

Any conscious person will think many times over before hurting anyone but these people go on spree of mass killings of human beings and live to enjoy life. They do not look for education based solutions of problems but instead destroy educated people because they fear exposure if educated people are around.

rulers act good by giving charities to organisations that are run by people who further their agendas eg rulers support mullahs and madrassas and what do mullahs and madrassas do? Bankers bring in politicians who further their agendas and so world is plunged into aimless wars and human suffering at this scale through wars and poverty has become acceptable.

the money spent on weapons of wars could have been spent on education but that will mean human brotherhood and that is exactly what these people do not want.

The quranic islam opposes that and that is the real reason why these people are spending so much money to see off islam. The islam they spread through their funded mullahs has come back to bite them. If you set up this world on fire in any part of it, it is only a matter of time before it reaches your own house, because you are part of the very same world. Had developed world used its people and resources to educate its own people and others the world would have become a better place but instead they cooked conspiracies and result we have is the world we have. If we will continue doing things this way result will continue getting worse.

May be time for us to change but change to what and why and how? This is where the only guidance for us is, the quran. If any of you have anything better let us have it.

1)You cannot make this world better unless you help each other to education.

2)you cannot educate each other unless you give up sense of dominating each other by undermining each other. enemies and rivals do not educate each other they hunt each other down. So if you want to be enemies then justify your animosity on some solid grounds. if you cannot then quran is the only solid foundation people have. The quran is the only book that justifies animosity on the solid grounds. Why not find out what those solid grounds are? They are unity and harmony between mankind for progress and prosperity of humanity itself. islam is enemy of all antisocial elements. Antisocial elements are people who are called shayaateen the people who want to rule the world and want to become master of humanity instead of Allah. These people are not to be supported if people want better world even if they happen to be their close relatives. It is because quranic brotherhood is based upon principles not blood relationships. Only those relations ship are approved that are consistent with principles ie quranic goals and guidelines. You cannot have genuine brotherhood if you divide people on basis of who is your close relative and who is not instead of solid grounds. If your son is killing innocent people and you support him, can you ever create a genuine brotherhood?


So people need to think when they attack the quran instead of people who misinterpret it to justify their harmful and destructive agendas. The quran is our ticket to blissful world unless we want to continue living the way we have been.

So people must give quran the due attention it deserves if they want this world to be a better place.

regards and all the best.

[piscohot]

this book clearly states goals and guidelines for people to unite upon and work together for.

yes it does, Mughal.

BUT the goals and 'guidelines' are clearly different from what you interpreted.


what does 'unite upon' means, Mughal?

that all become muslims?

[Mughal]

SAM:

The Holy Qur’an, it is a source of advice, healing , guidance and mercy for those who have faith and the process of soul searching

You give a very confident stance on what you believe is true.

Bearing in mind what you have said, how do verses telling Muslims to fight and kill in a gods name help with a Muslims "soul searching"?

I put this question to Mughal,which he has failed to answer, perhaps you can.


How can a book said to come from Allah,who is an alleged omniscient being, be so mis understood by humanity?

And how can a book said to come from a divine source be so mis understood by humans, that they resort to killing each other by the tens of thousands, all because they read in their holy book that fighting, and killing and getting killed for the sake of their god is prescribed?

Beats me,Mughal(SAM),how about you?

Quran 9.111
Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme. telling them that is the supreme achievement to do kill and get killed in their god's cause?


Quran 2.216
Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not.

Dear frankie, the quran simply tells you that fighting is legal or lawful in islam. Look for meaning of word KUTIBAA from root KAAF, TAA and BAA. Book means law. If fighting was imposed the way you people take it, do you think that nonmuslims world will ever be in peace or nonmuslim in muslim states be still nonmuslims?

The quran even in mullahs's translations tells you do not go overboard even when fighting during the war.

Also let all people who think they can have peace in the world without educating people and controlling those who cause trouble provide such a model.

Do you think that if your parents left you on your own you would have turned out ok? How about if you were attacked without provocation? You cannot have a human society where people do not educate people and do not make them follow their norms and do not sanction some sort of mechanism to deal with antisocial elements. If people are left uneducated or are allowed antisocial mindsets, attitudes and behaviour then there is no society.

The quran as I have said many times takes care of things in a very sensible way. So do learn it and see how different it is from whatever false propaganda people are spreading about it. Criminals always put blame of victims and make noise about it in order to have things their way. This is what bankers are doing by hiring politicians and mullahs and media. These are only a tiny minority of families that have spread an ideology of working for money because it suits them. It gives them paper to use and bury people. Quran tells us humanity can organise and regulate itself perfectly without any involvement of money for fulfilling its needs.

The quran talks about people trading word of God for petty gains.Think about it what is quran really saying here? It is telling mankind do not go for personal gains at the expense of a brotherhood based humanity community. This is what the bone of contention is with jews and christians and others and that includes muslims of today. You will see quran does not discriminate between people who have same mindsets, attitudes or behaviours. It puts them all in the same basket and condemns them for being harmful and destructive for humanity. Quran does not accept claims of people that they follow this book or that book or this divine messenger or that but whether they hold genuine thoughts for the well being of humanity or not and whether they do all that needs to be done for the well being of humanity or not. It does not give anyone blank cheque to cash. One has to accept goals as set out and the guidelines set out. Anyone within set limits is fine and anyone found outside those set limits is in trouble.

What we have in capitalism is incentive elements that people when they are hungry they will go and sell themselves in order to get food. The quran provides us with alternative incentive that if we will live as a brotherhood properly organised and regulated then we will never face hunger for anything because we will be planning and doing things to make our world a paradise for ourselves. This is why education is very important so that people realise what this life should mean for them and why. If people become fully aware of need for community based life then they will have no problem in working for community due to developing community spirit that will inspire them. They will therefore by fulfilling their responsibilities fulfil right of each other and all people therefore could live reasonably satisfied lives. This is why united humanity is better off than divided humanity.

In a united community we will not waste time in looking over our shoulders that we do today due to being divided trying to stab each other in the back because we are trying to take undue advantage of each other. This is what negative competition has given to humanity through capitalism and the like where individuals are trying to get on the top by undermining each other. One only has to look around and see how many human beings are living just for sake of hanging on to life. This waste of human resource is unforgivable and shows that leaders we choose to lead us are nothing more than donkeys in human shape. It is because they are unable to use this resource effectively for well being of humanity.

We do not have genuine choice of people because bankers only back those elements in our societies that look after their interests and not that of humanity. the quran opposes such a way of life and offers alternative that can prove the best regardless on paper or in practice provided people educate themselves about it.

So clash between the quranic ideology and anti quran ideologies at some point is inevitable and when it does happen it will be quranic way of life that will get people out of their self created troubles. This was true about all scriptures and messengers of Allah in the past. Those who did not accept divine advice ended up destroying themselves.

So people need to come to their senses and think what has the life offered them so far the way they have chosen to live it and what life they could have if they adopted the quranic way of life genuinely according to its proper understanding?

regards and all the best.

[manfred]

Dear frankie, the quran simply tells you that fighting is legal or lawful in islam

What???

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, ....

Where does it say that fighting is merely an allowed optional thing?

The word for fight here is "qatiloo" . qtl means primarily kill. In this form it means fight to death, never give up fighting. You know that as well as all of us. So why are you telling us lies?


Fighting is not merely "allowed", it is REQUIRED in Islam.


At least TRY to be honest. Such brazen attempts at deception may work with little old ladies in a Glasgow knitting club, but not on this forum.


and by the way, ktb (كتب) means write, not law. I thought you know some Arabic? The word for law is القانون which is a Latin import: Al-qanoon, from Latin Canon. It is true that in some very limited circumstances, when an Arab says "book" he means "law". We have the same in English "They threw the book at him." means he has been subjected to the full punishment of the law. But that is hardly a general pattern now, is it?

[Mughal]

this book clearly states goals and guidelines for people to unite upon and work together for.

yes it does, Mughal.

BUT the goals and 'guidelines' are clearly different from what you interpreted.


what does 'unite upon' means, Mughal?

that all become muslims?

In a meaningful sense yes dear piscohot but in mullah sense no. Labels are only important in some respects not in others. Allah calls muslims only those people who fit his criterion and mullahs call muslims to those who fit their criteria. This is why mullahs fight each other over who is proper muslim and who is not because they are a confused bunch of people. The way they have been setting up their follower against each other soon killings between their followers will lead their people to come to their senses and they along with their home made islams will be kicked out of their groups. People can put up with their killings only for so long after that it is time for accountability of those who set them up.

As I said already in my other post, different people support different people for their own agendas. Mullahs are funded by nonmuslim sources as well to spread their poison in muslim societies. It is divide and rule idea. Ths is why muslims need to educate themselves and see who is doing all this damage to them and why.

This is not war between muslims and nonmsulims but war between elite and masses. Elite is using masses against masses and masses are being used because they are stupid. How is it that elite has its banks full yet masses sleep hungry. Are these elites not treating other human beings like dogs? You cannot get rid of poverty by ways that create poverty. The only way to get rid of poverty and within a generation or two is quranic way of life. It is because quran does not give right of ownership to any individual human being be he a divine messenger. Allah is owner of all that he has created including human beings themselves. He has given all things to all human beings and told them how to use them for the well being of humanity. This is why whatever a people have in one part of the world must be used to benefit all people living in this world. All people need to do is plan and do things to make that happen. The way we are living is bad because a lot of what a people produce in one place is taken away from them altogether by crooks using hooks. If they speak up against it they are silenced by using police and army against them. Not only that they are told to justify their grievances through legal ways and the laws are all founded upon unfairness so they cannot prove their stance and more than that they have little money to take legal actions to begin with. If they had money, they will not be uneducated and unemployed. When system is devised by some to take undue advantage of others and is imposed upon others then the only way such people are left with is sit and wait for their deaths, commit suicides or go and kill whoever they think is responsible for their this situation. If they cannot reach the real enemy then at least his agents.

So this is the direction we are leading our world in and we expect better world, is tat possible or are we trying to spread false information to gain time to use and abuse more people for longer? Islam whatever it is at the end of the day does not run this world and those who are running this world are proving something to all of us so the question is, what are we going to do? Let these people get away with so much human blood on their hands? Or it is time to educate public and expose such elements and their agendas and try and redirect world to some better end even if it is islam as told by the quran in its proper context?

It is not that people know the quran properly so they are acting on it but reacting to what is being done to them in the name of secularism and democracy throughout the world. people therefore are only wasting time in trying to attack the quran because real enemies of humanity are amongst us and we are supporting them by taking part in their religions, in their secularism and in their democracy. The quran is not anti freedom, anti worldly wise or democracy but use and abuse. This users and abusers of humanity do not like about the quran so they spread false information about it to make people fool for as long as they can.

Time for people to wake up and do what really needs to be done to stop such elements in our societies if we want to create a world in which we can have dignified life.

regards and all the best.

[Mughal]

Dear frankie, the quran simply tells you that fighting is legal or lawful in islam

What???

Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, ....

Where does it say that fighting is merely an allowed optional thing?

The word for fight here is "qatiloo" . qtl means primarily kill. In this form it means fight to death, never give up fighting. You know that as well as all of us. So why are you telling us lies?


Fighting is not merely "allowed", it is REQUIRED in Islam.


At least TRY to be honest. Such brazen attempts at deception may work with little old ladies in a Glasgow knitting club, but not on this forum.


and by the way, ktb (كتب) means write, not law. I thought you know some Arabic? The word for law is القانون which is a Latin import: Al-qanoon, from Latin Canon. It is true that in some very limited circumstances, when an Arab says "book" he means "law". We have the same in English "They threw the book at him." means he has been subjected to the full punishment of the law. But that is hardly a general pattern now, is it?

Dear manfred, fighting is legal as I explained it but when, why ,where, how to fight is explained in the quran. If as you say fighting was supposed to be all the time then could this be possible? Humans are not like God. They need rest and other things in life to attend to as well. So to claim that fighting is required all the time is not a sensible interpretation of the quran because it is impossible to implement.

See word kutiba for its meanings. Not only that think of what could be permanent and what could not be permanent. For example, fighting is legal for ever in islam but to fight is only when need arises. It is legal to drive a car but that does not mean now you must not stop driving at all. It means you drive when you need to. Likewise when need arises muslim are obligated to fight.

Please do try and understand the quran in its proper context. You will be better of studying the quran for yourself, that way a lot of things will become explained by themselves as you read through the quran.

regards and all the best.

[frankie]

Mughal:

Please explain the following verses.

Quran 9.29
Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.


Quran 9.111
Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.

[Hombre]

mughal,
I appreciate your effort to present Islam in positive light. As myself (and others) have indicated earlier. you are trying to convince others that - one MUST accept Quran with all its content, and blindly believe everything, before even reading the first Sura. However, what you fail to understand is that, we in the West, and Judea-Christianity, have been taught critical thinking - question, examine, before accepting the content of any book - even our own respective holy books. We no longer believe that all those 7th century standards apply to our era. We don't need to follow an exact guidance how to bath, and wipe one's ass. Nor which leg to use entering a mosque.

Maybe that is the very reason for which, for past 900 years, Muslim have fallen behind other civilizations in term of human development.

furthermore, it is amazing to see your interpretation of a Book which clearly says one thing, and you (with full authority and confidence) say totally different meaning, which make no sense to those non-Muslim. Perhaps this is a tactic used to render the Quran so sophisticated and advanced, such that one has to be very educated to learn the hidden messages. The funny part is, I have yet to see any Muslim goes through a sura and tell us the "hidden messages" there.

It is obvious that, you must have spent better part of your life living in the West, and despite your eloquent communications, you fail to understand the western (Judea-Christianity) way of thinking and logic.The more one reads your long and lengthy replies, the less you make yourself understood by us, the non-Muslims.

As for Ali Sina. I read his book about Mohammad and his state of mind, and found it quite interesting. He is willing to discuss anyone, and he will convince you that Mohammad was no less a schizophrenic and narcissist - using modern tools in psychoanalysis of human behavior. (His views - not necessarily mine)

Unlike myself who was not born Muslim - he was a Muslim and knows the Quran inside-out. He simply concluded that this book is NOT a book of peace and kumaya, rather a manuscript of hate designed to glorify one man - Mohammad.

[manfred]

And when you are done going over Frankie's quotes, here are a few more:

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (48:29) - "Muhammad is the messenger of Allah. And those with him are hard (ruthless) against the disbelievers and merciful among themselves"

Quran (66:9) - "O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be stern with them. Hell will be their home, a hapless journey's end."

Bukhari (52:177) - Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah

Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah

Tabari 9:69 "Killing Unbelievers is a small matter to us" The words of Muhammad, prophet of Islam.

Ibn Ishaq: 327 - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

Ibn Ishaq: 992 - "Fight everyone in the way of Allah and kill those who disbelieve in Allah."

Note a common theme?


It does not say fight them because they attack you, or because they do you harm. It says, over and over, fight the UNBELIEVERS. Not believing Mohammed's tall tales is enough reason for violence.

This is the same to this day. If you go to Saudi Arabia and truthfully say that Mohammed was a common criminal, a warlord and sexual predator, you will not get a reply. You get screams, you will get beating and most likely killed. That is the Islamic way to settle diverging views in religion.

And that mentality you are happy to defend or whitewash. Islam is what it is. Filth, no more.

[pr126]

Hombre wrote:

mughal,
I appreciate your effort to present Islam in positive light.

Mughal is doing Da'wah - proselytizing for Islam.