has humanity understood the quran properly?

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Mughal
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

I still have not had a clear answer from you as to whether Muhammad fully understood the Koranic message and whether his recorded words and deeds ever contradicted the Koranic guidance.

If his recorded words and deeds did contradict the Koranic guidance there does not appear to be any criticism by Allah of the un-Islamic words and deeds. What can we conclude from this?

sum
brother sum, I did not know you are this lazy man. Read my work and let me get on with my study for God sake, will you?

good luck with your study of my work, regard and all the best.

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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

piscohot wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:Mughal is right, all humanity hardly understand the Quran, including the so called Muslims, only the minority understands the Quran.

Happy for you Mughal

And you boys and girls, keep it itchy
this so called minority do not understand the quran. They merely cannot come to terms with the fact that the quran is full of mistakes, contradictions and violence. So instead, they made up their own interpretations of the quran and called the majority ignorant.

ps: you should read Mughal's interpretation before you commit any further, Bahgat.
Dear piscohot, are you aware that educated people in the world are only a tiny minority so far. Look at how many Phds are there, how many masters and how many bachelors are there. Even literacy rates in countries throughout the world are not that great.

You will come to realise that you are not living in real world.

So please do think about things, it is not good to talk about the quran just out of ignorance. You will be able to convince me the quran is rubbish when you show me phd mullahs among majority of muslims. You cannot do that even among majority of jews never mind any other community of people.

I can only say, start thing dear brother so that we may get to the truth of things.

regards and all the best.

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pr126
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by pr126 »

So the mullahs and the whole ulema have deliberately distorted the true message of Allah, and nobody noticed this blasphemy for 14 centuries?

How can this be? :clueless:
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.

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manfred
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by manfred »

pr126 wrote:So the mullahs and the whole ulema have deliberately distorted the true message of Allah, and nobody noticed this blasphemy for 14 centuries?

How can this be? :clueless:

I have asked him that a dozen times, but he seems to have no answer to that.

I would also like to know how a book that claims to be clear can be so distorted by the "mullahs" and why it is that Allah keeps saying things that get misread. Is he unable or unwilling to make his message clear, and was he lying when he said the Qur'an was clear?


For example if Allah says
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.
Qur'an 9:29

How is that even similar to
So campaign hard against those who do not commit to working for peace, progress and prosperity of mankind within the heavenly kingdom according to program, constitution and law of Allah for bringing about the new era that is beneficial for mankind- because they stop not each other from doing what Allah has forbidden through His messenger by embracing not the standard for their judgement which is proper because it is beneficial for the mankind- until they are convinced and become consistent with universal laws of Allah that are beneficial for mankind or they will be humbled in time even if such people belong to the people of the book.
http://www.jangforum.net/index.php?topic=5206.15" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mughal is like a lowly servant in a palace. The king says something in a public speech. Afterwards, when the king is away, he climbs the podium and says "Well, guys, he did not mean that exactly, he can't explain himself properly, he is a bit limited. He really meant to say this:...." Of course he never even spoke a single word to the king, to make such a claim, he is not important enough. I wonder what the king would do when he find out he is being mocked by the guy he deems unworthy to empty his chamber pot?


Ahmed, are you planning to include Mughal's rendering of the Qur'an into your Access Qur'an? If I were you, I wouldn't. And Ahmed, how can YOU be sure that you really "understand" the Qur'an?

And Mughal, if you really want to be a Muslim, then you need to accept the teachings of the Qur'an as they are, not as you would like them to be.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

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manfred
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by manfred »

Now Mughal, please read the verse from surah 9 again. Carefully.

You, a Muslim, are to FIGHT to death someone it says (not "campaign" against something with a poster) The text is very clear who to fight:

Anyone who:

anyone who does not BELIEVE in Allah or the last day, it says. Nothing at all about "commit to peace" or any other such nonsense you suggest. Plain and simple: You are ordered to fight any NON-MUSLIMS ,fight, it says, fight to KILL.

and anyone who:

does not hold that forbidden which has been forbidden by Allah AND His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, which Muslims believe to be Islam. Not Allah "through" his messenger, as you swindle yourself, it does not say that. It says AND. This means Allah's words and Mohammed's words are interchangeable. In case you did not hear it the first time: you are to fight to death people because of what they BELIEVE, not what they do to you or anyone else. Read it. It is really plain and easy to see.

Why should you fight them?

Not to get them to follow Allah's law, as you claim. Not at all. Read what it says. It says the whole point of this fighting all those who do not believe in Allah and Mohammed is to humiliate them and extort money.


That is what is says, Mughal.


So, if you really want to be a Muslim, then you must fight the unbelievers, even the people of the book, until they pay jizya. This is one of the last commands Allah "revealed" to Mohammed. So, why are you cowardly trying to re-write Allah's words to get out of it? You can't have it both ways: Either you are a Muslim and you SUBMIT to the teachings of Islam, or you are not and believe what you like to believe.

If you want to be a Muslim, then you have to accept this verse as it is, and hundreds like it.

Is that your wish?

If you want to be a Muslim, you must believe in Islam. That includes the command in that verse.
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piscohot
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by piscohot »

Mughal wrote: You will be able to convince me the quran is rubbish when you show me phd mullahs among majority of muslims.

regards and all the best.
Mughal,

the quran said it explain everything in detail, meaning it is a clear book, easy to understand.

yet you are saying that a book meant for guiding billions of people was made in such a way that it can only be understood by a few who must be of phd material?

when you consider the punishment mentioned in the quran for disbelievers, one must come to a conclusion that this god must be a sadist for coming out with a book that caused so much disagreements.
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Centaur
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Centaur »

Mohammed and his close companions were violent sex maniac misogynists, because they never had their Arabic Phds and thus never understood Qur'an.jibril never bothered about offering Mohammed a phd so he went on to mol;est a child and looting caravans for a living.if only mo had his phd.
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skynightblaze
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by skynightblaze »

Before I reply to a few select points from your first post addressed to me, let me reply to your counter response to my posts...
Mughal wrote:
skynightblaze wrote: You said, "In short what you say is people corrupted the true message of quran. In that case it means Allah has failed to preserve his teachings. Any failure on Allah;s part means he is not God. Now here are a few questions for you"
I did not say people corrupted divine message but they did interfere with peoples' understanding of the message. However God gave people brains and ability to catch each other out if they wish. Now if world decide to go to sleep instead of using its so many brains then that is their choice.
Preventing corruption of a book (changing words in the book) ensures that people don't follow a wrong message and that is why care is taken to ensure that original message is not tampered. Now if people's understanding of quran is interfered and they are led to believe in something else then the end result would be same as it would be if the actual words of the book were changed i.e. people end up following a wrong message. So what difference does that make? It is same as corrupting the actual words..

Secondly 95% of the people do not speak arabic i.e. they have to rely on translations made by others. Even within those 5% people disagree amongst themselves. In such a case how can you blame 95% people for not using their brains? If someone who does not understand arabic reads that disbelievers should be killed, how should he use his/her brain? Do we still say that quran talks of peace?
Mughal wrote:
Skynightblaze wrote: "1)why didn’t Allah entrust his book in the reliable hands who would take care that his message won’t be distorted?"
Who are reliable hands and if he did that will people like you still not ask same question, why not me?
Ok then let me ask you a question on the same lines . Why Muhammad and why not me for delivering the message? Now did this prevent Allah from sending Muhammad? Ofcourse not! If your reasoning is correct, then Allah should not be sending Muhammad with the quran because we would ask exactly the same question. In that case Muhammad is not Allah's prophet and hence quran is fake..

Secondly it seems that Allah cannot understand what should be given importance. He cannot do cost benefit analysis. He has two alternatives :
1) Send a reliable person who would ensure that people do not misinterpret the true message of quran
2) Not send any reliable person and let people remain in a state of mess as the muslim community is today

Any sane person would chose option 1 because that does not cause harm.On the other hand if option 2 is chosen, people misinterpret a message millions and millions of people turn into criminals. In short, Allah got it wrong and hence not GOd!
Mughal wrote:
Skynightblaze wrote: "2) If people have been falsely representing and propagating a wrong message why didn’t Allah take corrective action? Why is he silent for last 1400 years?"
God is not silent people are delivering quranic copies at our doors and it is up to us to find out the truth or stay away. Some do others do other things that is their choice.
The copies delivered for last 1400 years are totally different from your translations. In such a case you cant blame people. It seems that Allah enjoys people being misguided and then in the end he loves to punish them for the same.
Mughal wrote:
Skynightblaze wrote: "3) If Allah is all knowing he already knew what was going to be the end result of sending the quran down to earth. The end result was terrorism, hatred of kafirs , mass scale killing etc. Doesn’t this mean that Allah wanted to cause havoc on earth?"
As for Allah, creation cannot know anything about him beyond what he told it himself. The idea that Allah is all aware does not means Allah knows the impossible. Allah only knows what he knows and he has not told us limits of his knowledge, so there is no point in arguing over things which neither of us can find out. Allah sent the quran for guidance of mankind and mankind are learning and one day they will reach the stage whereat the quran will become very useful for them. Allah is waiting for humanity to grow up so tat it could see things in a different light as grown up community.
We are looking at the word "ALL KNOWING". Human understanding of the word "All " does not exclude anything so there is no cop out for you.

If you claim that it is not possible for us to know what Allah means when he says he is "All knowing" because of limited human understanding then we have a huge problem. None of the quran can be interpreted in that case for sure. For all we know , it could mean something beyond our limited human understanding. The message could be totally different and we could be interpreting it differently because we have limitations. In short quran cannot be for humans..

More ever knowing that people would kill each other in advance is not an impossible thing. Even we human beings can make a guess and prevent such acts.
Mughal wrote: As I said already people were fighting already long before the quran and the same reasons are still out there which make people fight each other so quran is not magic cure but knowledge based cure and people do not grow up overnight so things will take time to get where they need to be. This is how Allah set -up things and there is no better way to do things that suit purpose of Allah. If there is any other better way then people can put it forward for our examination before attacking the ideas told by God as to why he set up the world the way he did.
Well people were fighting before the quran and they are still fighting after the quran was revealed for 1400 long years. That should be sufficient to tell you that presence or absence of quran does not matter. In short we may discard quran.

Secondly, I have not claimed that islam alone makes people fight or turn into criminals. Islam is just one of the sources where people find justifications for their criminal behavior. So pointing out to criminal acts which are not as a result of islam does not make islam less bad. It only means islam is one source amongst many.
Mughal wrote:
skynightblaze wrote: "4 ) If wealthy people, governments etc were all conspiring against the quran how are you sure that they have not changed the actual words of the quran? It seems you are comfortable with the idea that every single person was busy fabricating lies about the quran (for e.g fabricating ahadith) and yet on the other hand they were devout enough to NOT corrupt the quran itself."
The idea that people conspired against divine message is a verifiable fact. Ask people how many of them want to live the way the quran puts forth? Moreover what is the way the quran puts forth? Hint, it is not the mullahs' way. Why mullahs way looks bad and what is the real difference between islam put forth by mullahs and islam put forth by the quran? Do you know in the quran who are the people the quran condemns who stop mankind from the way of Allah? Surprise surprise they are mullahs.
Well you have not answered my question at all but instead you are asking me irrelevant questions. Corruption of quran is also a verifiable fact. We know from Sanaa manuscripts that there was no standard quran at a time. There were multiple copies of quran is circulation and they differed from each other in content. If quran was not corrupted we would have one uniform copy. So historical proofs debunk you.

Btw you have not answered my question at all. If people could invent anything they want about muhammad and islam and yet not FACE opposition from masses then changing the words in the quran would not be a big deal.
Mughal wrote:
skynightblaze wrote: "Please explain to me in what way your explanation has worked out well. Please give an example to substantiate your point. As I asked you previously , please explain to us 4:34 from the quran and how others have got it wrong otherwise this is just a vague claim."
As I said before, language of quran needs to be paid attention. Each word used in the quran has a root and each root has various concepts attached to it. In some cases a few roots work as one Take word NISAA, it has a few roots even in Arabic which is an indication that this root originated from a few different predecessor languages. Roots are NOON,SEEN and ALIF. NOON SEEN and WOW, NOON SEEN and YAA and ALIF, NOON and SEEN. Please look up root based dictionaries to see what I am talking about and then see how many different meanings are explained about each of these roots. For the context read the surah I have given the link.
I am not denying that arabic roots can take different meanings. I am asking you for the context which you speak for translating the words to have a specific meaning. I could not find the links that you have given. Can you quote the specific part asked from the link?
Mughal wrote:
skynightblaze wrote: "I do have ground because quran claims to be for entire mankind. Entire mankind consists of experts, non experts, beginners, amateurs etc. So I do have a case to argue otherwise the claim that quran is for entire mankind is false. It would mean quran is only for experts which is self defeating."
Well, language does have limitations so people should be able to make proper sense of things. When we use word humanity we still mean only people we mean that are relevant to our subject matter not humnaity as a whole, for many have gone before us. Likewise the quran only means people that are there and from among them those who can benefit at any given time. Children who grow up and interested in knowing things.
By claiming that humanity may not mean every single person on earth you are shooting yourself in the foot! In that case why are you so worried about people not following quran?
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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AhmedBahgat
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by AhmedBahgat »

Mughal is educating you boys and girls, it is indeed great to watch

Go Mughal :lotpot:

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AhmedBahgat
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by AhmedBahgat »

What you boys and girls will do when Ali Sina himself reverts back to Islam?

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manfred
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by manfred »

It is good to see you stop by from time to time Ahmed! More would be even better!

Ahmed, Mughal is not really saying anything I have not heard before. Distorting the Qur'an is not really an "education", is it? He is merely telling us what he would have LIKED the Qur'an to say, but reality is different. Your own translation shows that.

And let me ask your question the other way round: Suppose ALL current Muslims left Islam, apart from you. Does that prove anything? In my view, nothing at all. It would suggest to have a closer look, but no more than that.

Is truth linked to the number of people subscribing to it? With less people it become less true and with more, more true?
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manfred
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by manfred »

One more quibble for Mughal:

You said that the second half of qur'an 6:89 says this
We have sent for all of you the Quran to explain everything necessary in detail to all people as a guidance towards blissful program thereby a good news for those who will commit to this program that leads to peace, progress and prosperity of mankind.
http://www.jangforum.net/index.php?topic=5206.30" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;



In translation it says this
"...And We have revealed the Book to you which has clear explanation of everything, and a guidance, mercy and good news for those who submit." (Qur'an 16:89)
While your rendering has important differences, it also agrees on one essential point: The Qur'an says about itself it explains "everything".

So, according to you, the Qur'an itself does not explain anything at all, you do all the explaining. You also say you have to have a "PHD" to do any explaining, so do you have one? I have two, but I would not presume I could explain things to people. People need to find out for themselves.

Where does it say in the Qur'an, your own rendering or any other, that YOU are required to explain the text? So, did Allah lie when he described the Qur'an as a clear explanation? Where did he say that some "special" person is needed.

No three pages answer, just a quote will do.
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piscohot
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by piscohot »

one question that Mughal need to ask: did Muhammad preach the quran the way Mughal interpreted?

if not, why?

if yes, where can i find it?
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pr126
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by pr126 »

Mughal is on a mission to save Muslims from themselves.

He is using the same old Islamic tradition, deception.
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frankie
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by frankie »

all humanity hardly understand the Quran, including the so called Muslims, only the minority understands the Quran.
AhmedBahgat:

The Quran tells believers in Islam and Mohammed that:

fighting is a good thing to do for Muslims 2.216

Not equal are those believers who sit at home like women and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit at home. 4:95

Who so fights in the cause of allah, be he slain or be he victorious, we shall soon give him a great reward. 4:74

9.111
God hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur 'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than God? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.



Mohammed said:


Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 065.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Musa : A man came to the Prophet and asked, "A man fights for war booty; another fights for fame
and a third fights for showing off; which of them fights in Allah's Cause?" The Prophet said, "He who fights that
Allah's Word (i.e. Islam) should be superior, fights in Allah's Cause."


Volumn 004, Book 052, Hadith Number 196.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Abu Huraira : Allah 's Apostle said, " I have been ordered to fight with the people till they say, 'None has
the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and whoever says, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' his life and
property will be saved by me except for Islamic law, and his accounts will be with Allah, (either to punish him or to
forgive him.)"


It is more than clear, that the Muslim who is the most faithful to his teachings is the one who fights and kills unbelievers in Allahs cause.


Why are you supporting murder in the name of a religion?
Last edited by frankie on Thu Nov 21, 2013 10:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mughal
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

Dear friends, all your questions have answers but they need to be found by yourselves. Truth is something you need to find yourself as much as it is within your capacity.

I have my priority and you have yours and we are all busy with life as it is. I have put before you what I make of the quran and if anyone wants to benefit from that and move on that is up to oneself.

Had I found anything in your questions that did not have any answer, I would have explained. What you need to do is read what I have written and that may lead you on to things that even I may not have discovered. My ideas do not come from myself but that have read widely so if you will include in your reading what I have written you may find things in there that may be of help to you.

I have covered in there many points some of which raised here and some raised by myself and others. As I see things Islam is future for humanity so it will be better for all of us to get to know it and spread islam that takes mankind forward instead of islam invented by mullahs to make everyone slave and ruined the world.

No other book provides humanity as solid a foundation to base human community upon to organise and regulate as the quran.

So it is waste of time to argue over things without you reading my work just because you think only mullahs' work is worth the study.

I cannot force anyone but can only make brotherly suggestion and hope you realise that if you people will ignore works like mine then how can you change minds for the better?

The idea that islam invented by mullahs is bad is fine but you seem to take things too far whereby you are ending up being mullahs yourselves. Think about it that by opposing people with better understanding of the quran what are you really doing.

regards and all the best.

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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by frankie »

Mughal:
Think about it that by opposing people with better understanding of the quran what are you really doing.
Exactly Mughal, take a long hard look at what you have written, and apply it to yourself.

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Hombre
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Hombre »

Mughal.
You keep going round-n-round, with no palatable answers to specific questions which many of us pose to you. Here is another specific question.
Explain to me what these Surahs mean:

5:32 For this reason We prescribed for the Children of Israel that whoever kills a person, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he had killed all men. And whoever saves a life, it is as though he had saved the lives of all men. And certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them commit excesses in the land.

5:33 The only punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is that they should be murdered, or crucified, or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides, or they should be imprisoned. This shall be a disgrace for them in this world, and in the Hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.


The question is. who gave Mohammad the right to be the judge, jury and prosecutor of other people's conduct, who had lived 2000 years before he was born? After all, from Muslims own story of Jews in Khyber, they had already told Mohammad - "mind your own business mister, and we will mind ours. We don't need you to tell us OUR OWN stories - we know them very well". Why did he kill them?

Also. could you tell me this. Mohammad was born in 570 ACE. He had started his religion only in 620 ACE. That when Islam had started, and that when Islamic calendar begins.

Abraham had lived some 2500 years, and Jesus had lived 600 years, before Mohammad, or Islam had showed up. If God & Lord (Not Allah) was referring to the religious of Islam (as Muslims claim), he would have sent this message directly to his followers - not wait 2500 years to tell it. Why the word "Islam" is not mentioned anywhere - neither in Hebrew Bible, nor in the New Testament.

finally. Why Muslims need to copy and repeat Jews & Christians religious tenets, which were told hundreds and thousand years before. Does it NOT render Mohammad as plagiarizer of other people's histories w/o acknowledging them.

Why the hell do you need to expropriate, and copy Jews and Christians history and their prophets to tell you story.

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Hombre
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Hombre »

Mughal wrote:I have covered in there many points some of which raised here and some raised by myself and others. As I see things Islam is future for humanity so it will be better for all of us to get to know it and spread islam that takes mankind forward instead of islam invented by mullahs to make everyone slave and ruined the world.
No sir, despite your futile effort to do so, from the replies you had received - apart from yourself, you convinced no one else. History of past 900 years, clearly demonstrates that, Islam is not, and had never been for the future - rather stuck in the distance past of the 7th century.
No other book provides humanity as solid a foundation to base human community upon to organise and regulate as the quran.
A book which repeats itself ("Allah is almighty, he knows everything". And "obey Allah & his messenger") over and over and over some 1000 times, it can not be called a religious book in a rational means. A Book which repeats, copies, or outright plagiarize other people's history and religious tenets - it can not be labeled as such.

After Reading the Quran, I came with only one conclusion - a perfect manuscript to brainwash unsuspecting and gullible people.

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pr126
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by pr126 »

has humanity understood the quran properly?

Of course not.

But the jihadist, their supporters, suppliers, financiers and masters certainly do understand what the Quran and Islam demands of them.
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.

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