has humanity understood the quran properly?

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Hombre
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Hombre »

OK mughal
why don't get pickk a sura in the Quran, post (the English version) then tell us what each versus mean - so others will understand you better.

Also, the Quran talks about Prophets which had lived 2000 years before Mohammad showed up, and talks about then as though Islam had existed and practices. We all know that is not the case.

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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

Dear sum, as I have explained already to know exactly what happened in the past is not an easy job but to know things as much as we can in my view we have to look at things in a way that makes sense. This is why I have explained my way of looking at things. If anyone has a better way of looking at things that will be fine with me but I have not come across anything like that yet.

I separate sources of information by their place values ie the quran is not same as hadith and hadith is not same as biographies, history, and fiqh books. The quran in my view is ultimate source of information on islam because it is said to be word of God via a divine messenger. The hadith is second to the quran as a source of information on islam because it is not the word of God but a reported words or deeds of the prophet by ordinary people. Biographies and history records are another source of information on islam but these are not taken as authentic records as those of quran and valid ahadith. All sources of information on islam are valid so long as they meet certain requirements.

For example, the quran has to be proven valid before it could be taken as source on islam, likewise hadith has to be proven valid before it could be taken as source of information on islam. I have explained in detail how to do that. Once that is done then whatever we get can be taken as true.

As far as I am concerned for the time being I am stuck with my work on the quran. Only after I complete my work on the quran if I see it is worthwhile that I may attempt dealing with hadith. I have not come across anyone who has already done such detailed work on islamic sources so far.

Your questions are valid questions but if you are really interested in finding out their proper answers then don't look to others instead put your own effort in it and get the answers. After all life is for learning. A lot of people have put a lot of effort in lot of things that is the reason we know what we know so far. So we too owe it to humanity to contribute whatever best we each can. If I fall dead right now, do you not owe it to yourself that you carry on looking for the answers to your questions? Humans are created with mind to inquire and find out so mind only satisfies with whatever is truth that gives stability to mind and thereby body because external pressures can effect minds and internal pressures can effect outside world ie you influence your environment just as you are influenced by it and that is what interaction is all about.

Existence of God is a rational reality the problem is has God been in touch with humanity and if he has then what is the proof? Here the man question is why should God get in touch with humanity to begin with? What are options open to God and how God could use those options? I had gone through scriptures long time ago by reading various translations of the scriptures but a few years back I came across some facts about the quran which forced me to study this book in detail. So I took it upon myself to go through the quran again and this time I found that it is book that commands respect. I am sharing my experience with the quran and I think it can help humanity solve some mysteries that seem to have no solid answers.

This is why I can say things about the quran with reasonable certainty but not yet about hadith works because I have not been able to study them yet in a simiar way. However if anyone wants to take on that study I have explained the way they should do it. This study has to be independent of what people believe. The idea is to see what words mean and how they fit together to form a coherent information source that provides us with proper picture of islam as it is present in its main source the quran.

The idea behind any study is finding facts and explaining them the best possible way. This is why people who go on fact finding mission need to leave their nonsense behind.

Coming to muhammad, his mindset, attitude and behaviour, all must look at him as a normal human being but because he is chosen by God he must have had some qualities due to which God chose him to lead humanity. Some human beings at times do top humanity that is why humanity is still around and in a bit better state knowledge-wise. I think he was a greatest person amongst men of his time and that is the reason he was chosen not because he was the worst of men of his time. Things attributed to him can only be valid if quran proves to be a false book, which is unlikely in my view after my study of the quran this far in detail that I have gone through. So you will have to revise your view about muhammad once someone or once you yourself undertake the study of things you are questioning about.

My view is that sources of information on islam have been grossly misinterpreted and misrepresented and that is not a shot in the air but based upon my study of the quranic text and the findings I came across.

You are educated enough to know that words have various meanings and anyone can pick and choose any meanings to suit his agenda particularly to confuse people. It is easy to offer nonsense but very difficult to come up with a working explanation. I have explained the motives behind misinterpretations and misrepresentations of the quranic text for rulers, mullahs and money lenders or money changer or business dealers for profit at the expense of humanity, so your claims about muhammad in my view are unlikely to be true. They are emphasised in main stream media to give edge to people who want any valid ground for proper human community eradicated so that they are no longer troubled by it. So it is a coalition of the partners with agendas against masses of mankind. However islam is here to stay regardless the opponents like it or not, says the quran.

We may not see proper followers of the quran but Allah's plan cannot be defeated because harmful,and destructive plan of coalition is alwys against humanity and each time anyone attempts, it is found out well in time and reactions begin and transgressors are each time forced to retreat. All this is told already in the quran about past generations and future is unlikely to be any different because Allah says his way of dealing with things remains the same. SUNNATALLAHI LAA TABDEELA.

So instead of wasting time like this you will be better off finding things out yourself where others fail to help you and that includes me as well. This is not about taking sides but about finding out the truth for ourselves and if we think we know anything that others do not then we share what we have come to know.

This site was supposed serve that purpose and it should.

regards and all the best.

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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

Hombre wrote:OK mughal
why don't get pickk a sura in the Quran, post (the English version) then tell us what each versus mean - so others will understand you better.

Also, the Quran talks about Prophets which had lived 2000 years before Mohammad showed up, and talks about then as though Islam had existed and practices. We all know that is not the case.
Great idea dear Hombre but for the time being I am not able to take part much due to work I have already under taken. I have to go through 1/6th of the quran yet and then I need some rest being and old man and after that I need time to go through what I have written already to see if I have made any mistakes or if I have changed my mind about things that I have stated already here and there. It is an on going process and will take time. I wanted to post the whole of my work on this site but admin did not like it so I have put it on another forum but anyone is free get copy past on this site any part of my work so far. I have translated some end surahs as well which are very short so one can bring them over and discuss them in context that I am proposing. It is always possible to improve things particularly by input by people with information of things and with ability of making sense of that information.

http://www.jangforum.net/index.php?PHPS ... pic=5206.0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My regards and best wishes.

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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Centaur »

Explain at least one verse for example 5:33, can you? I see that you are old and scared of allahs hell
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

Centaur wrote:Explain at least one verse for example 5:33, can you? I see that you are old and scared of allahs hell
Dear centaur, there is no point for me in explaining any single thing because the quran needs to be understood in context. The context I understand is very different from anything others are talking about. This is why I am responding to your post because it is a very important point for people to realise. It is like you have a different jigsaw puzzle and I have a different one, we cannot fit any of our pieces to other's jigsaw puzzle. If I interpret one thing then you will go to next and the one after that and so nothing will make sense because you will try to fit in my explanation into base provided by others. If it was only an odd thing that we had difference over then my explanation of that will be worthwhile but not odd explanation when the ret of whole thing is looked at in a very different context. This is why I am asking all friends to see what I am explaining. Moreover as I explained already to others this is my first attempt at explanation of the quran and I still need to go over it after I complete it. The reason is each time I am interpreting a verse and new one I come across forces me to review my previous interpretation of the verses. It is very tiring work for me but somehow I am getting on with it. Let us hope that I am able to complete this without any set back.

No I am not afraid of Allah because he is very nice being nothing at all to do with nonsense of mullahs. The hell the quran is talking about is hell created by mankind themselves for themselves in form of harming each other and ending up hating each other so badly that world has become hell. Allah is telling us live the way he tells us so that we do not harm each other therefore do not end up hating each other and out of hate end up destroying each other.

This shows you how different are our contexts for looking at quranic text.

You cannot be a muslim just by name you need to do what quran says in order of steps tell the end is reached ie first thing a muslim has to do is learn the quran properly oneself. second step one has to take is teach it to others who are willing to learn. third step is see if any people want the quranic way of life established. If yes, organise all such people into a community based upon quranic constitution and regulate it according to laws based upon guidelines of the quran. The laws are supposed to be formed by people themselves through mutual consultation as if in a parliament. Not mullahs shariah which is jumble of nonsense. It is movement of humanity for the good of mankind themselves. I will be sharing my understanding of islamic way of life in my work on the quran time permitting. In quranic islam there is no banking and no capital involved therefore no profit and no interest based economy. The adverts you see on tv about shariah compliant banking is all rubbish by capitalists trying to make fool of humanity as usual through nonsense of mullahs.

If I am able to complete my work this will be first ever after the prophet, anyone put forth the complete islamic economic system in its true form. But everyone needs to wait unless one wants to have a go oneself. Basically it is an organised and regulated system without involving any money at all. This is why people do not find any paper work or money from the time of the prophet nor how the huge empire was run because it was run by people who knew the quran properly and were satisfied with its program. Word of mouth was enough for them by each other to do what they promised each other ie they were a people very much conscious of of God and responsibilities towards each other that is why things were ok. They did not need to hold each other by the neck to suck each other dry as we do. They were real human beings not animals like people of today.

We have no idea what quran is all about this is why we talk so much rubbish about it without ever thinking we may well be wrong. There is a lot to learn from the quran but it takes thinking and dedicated people who have gained the needed information for study of the quran and have gained the ability to make sense of things.

regards and all the best.

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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Centaur »

Quran a jigsaw puzzle? Can you explain your version of 5:33? Do you by any chance believe that Mohammed practiced Islam? Don't say you don't fear allahs he'll, what you think of the verse Allah providing another skin on e the original one is burnt off?
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by frankie »

Are these problems caused by scriptures or stupidity of people who divide our world and want to keep it divided?
Mughal:

Good question, one you should be addressing to the fake belief system named Islam, which by its very nature commands the very stupidity and division you highlight.

If you are so opposed to "scriptures or stupidity of people who divide our world and want to keep it divided" then you must address Islamic scripture, which command division and intolerance, leading to hatred of all "unbelievers "leading to violence towards "unbelievers" which interestingly doesn't make it onto your list.

Why is that?

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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by skynightblaze »

Mughal wrote:Dear skynightblaze, I am very much logical and reasonable but the point you are failing to realise is the context I am proposing in my study of the quran. I know it is not that easy because it took me very long time to realise that.
You are talking vague. Take a specific example and point out to me the context. Please take a look at 4:34 and let me know the context behind the verse. Explain to me how every single person has failed to see the context of that verse or how standard translations have failed to recognize the true message of quran.

Secondly you time and again end up dismissing the quran. You claim that you alone have understood the quran and EVEN it was NOT EASY for you to understand the real message of quran. Note the words NOT THAT EASY! In other words you mean it is difficult to understand the real message of quran even for you. Now what do we mean when we say something is difficult/NOT that easy? Don’t we mean by the usage of such words that It is not EVERYONE’s cup of tea?? In such a case how can quran claim itself to be for ENTIRE mankind ? This means quran lied to us if what you say is true.

Note that quran needs to be VERY VERY EASY if it is for entire mankind. Entire mankind has dumb and wise people. If the dumb cannot understand the quran , it simply cannot claim it is for entire mankind.
Mughal wrote:
Spoiler! :
The reason not that it was impossible to get to grips with but because when you are led up the wrong tree you bypass the proper track. It is because governments are very good at using and abusing their people so muslim rulers and mullahs and money lenders, wealthy people and business for profit people turned quran into a book of religion in order to move it out of their way to make the road clear for themselves due to greed for power and dominance etc. As you know when children are able to learn they are sent to mullahs so you can see how they indoctrinate and program people. This is why it takes much more effort to see what the actual truth might be. You can make any piece of text easy or hard by programming people before they are able to judge things for themselves through make beliefs. This is why when mullahs instil make beliefs in minds of kids and ignorant adults and after that they read the quran then they only see confirmation of what they have been programmed with. Once they are programmed they pass on the same nonsense to later generations and so people blindly follow each other like sheep. Nonetheless someone comes along and breaks this continuity and that is how debates and discussions begin and the truth comes out. The conflict of interests helps mankind argue against each other and that is how humanity gradually moves to whatever the truth might be in a case. This is why when some try to use the quran the wrong way it leads to problems for others and this division leads to reaction and so none of the factions is then in actual control of things.
In short what you say is people corrupted the true message of quran. In that case it means Allah has failed to preserve his teachings. Any failure on Allah;s part means he is not God. Now here are a few questions for you

1)why didn’t Allah entrust his book in the reliable hands who would take care that his message won’t be distorted?

2) If people have been falsely representing and propagating a wrong message why didn’t Allah take corrective action? Why is he silent for last 1400 years?

3) If Allah is all knowing he already knew what was going to be the end result of sending the quran down to earth. The end result was terrorism, hatred of kafirs , mass scale killing etc. Doesn’t this mean that Allah wanted to cause havoc on earth?

4 ) If wealthy people, governments etc were all conspiring against the quran how are you sure that they have not changed the actual words of the quran? It seems you are comfortable with the idea that every single person was busy fabricating lies about the quran (for e.g fabricating ahadith) and yet on the other hand they were devout enough to NOT corrupt the quran itself.
Mughal wrote: There is no such thing as a perfect all aware human being, we all suffer from human errors, some more than others. This is why the proof is important and I explained what the proof is and how it proves the point. When people offers explanations about something the only explanation that stands is the one that works. So long an explanation is available that works, not only you but none of us can oppose it on willy nilly grounds. . This is why any explanation that works needs no further proofs because it is proof in itself.
Please explain to me in what way your explanation has worked out well.
Mughal wrote: My problem with translations is not of the nature you may have in mind, the words used in the translations have those meanings but that same words have alternative meanings as well, this is why on that accou8nt my translation is not wrong either. But the decisive point is context because without a proper context no text is valid. This is why I reject those translation and call them invalid because if we examine those translations then they give rise to so many objections due to various reasons. This of course needs a detail discussion about each and every words used in the quran but it can be done. Each word has concepts attached to it but in text only that concept is valid that fits the context or gives rise to a context without any lose ends. For this one has to look at things in great detail and that is why it is taking me so long to understand things the quran is talking about
Please give an example to substantiate your point. As I asked you previously , please explain to us 4:34 from the quran and how others have got it wrong otherwise this is just a vague claim.
Mughal wrote: As for your saying that you do not claim to be expert is a contradiction in itself because then you have no ground to argue the case you are arguing.
I do have ground because quran claims to be for entire mankind. Entire mankind consists of experts, non experts, beginners, amateurs etc. So I do have a case to argue otherwise the claim that quran is for entire mankind is false. It would mean quran is only for experts which is self defeating.
Mughal wrote: The people you claim are expert disagree with each other in a big way and belong to countless sects. If they were even as expert as I was that could not be the case. In no tafseer or translation these experts of yours give any method or rule whereby they prove their opinions they are offer to be valid. A clear sign that these people were not interested in proofs and proving but only to confused others as confuse they themselves were about the quran for the reasons only known to themselves.
Let us take a specific example. Consider verse 65:4 from the quran. Look at all the tafsirs. Each one of them comes up with the same explanation i.e. the verse talks about marrying pre-pubescent kids. If everyone was fabricating we would find different stories. It cannot happen that everyone decides to lie and comes up with the same thing. In some cases tafsirs do disagree however when we are dealing with such a large quantity of data , some disagreements are bound to be there. Finally just because tafsirs scholars do not agree with them on some counts is no proof that you are someone different. Btw I was referring to translators of quran and not tafsir scholars. Roughly (not exactly) all the renowned and standard translations of quran say the same thing. They do differ on some counts but the deviation is not radical as in case of your translation.

I will deal with rest of your post afterwards.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by AhmedBahgat »

What is the story boys and girls because I have no time to read all that sh!t,. I know about Mughal that he is an apostate, did he become a Muslim again or just acting shifty?

Answer me boys and girls please

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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by skynightblaze »

AhmedBahgat wrote:What is the story boys and girls because I have no time to read all that sh!t,. I know about Mughal that he is an apostate, did he become a Muslim again or just acting shifty?

Answer me boys and girls please
Yes he has become a muslim again . He claims quran to be of divine origin but his translations are wild. Btw do you grasp things with your bum? Ideally it should not take so much of time to know that Mughal is a muslim. He believes just like you that he alone understands the quran. May be Jibril is double crossing you both and conveying different messages.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by AhmedBahgat »

Thanks myarseablaze

I guess you boys and girls are so itchy now

Good on you Mughal. If it is true, it is Allah Who guided you to Him, hope we meet in Jannah inshaallah

Salam

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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by AhmedBahgat »

Mughal is right, all humanity hardly understand the Quran, including the so called Muslims, only the minority understands the Quran.

Happy for you Mughal

And you boys and girls, keep it itchy

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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by AhmedBahgat »

Dear Mughal

I apologise for this comment
-------------
AhmedBahgat wrote:
What I am positive is the fact that Mughal from all humans did not understand the Quran
-------------

Sorry, I did not know that you now understand the Quran, however I always said about you even when we were enemies, that you are knowledgeable, and I guess I was not wrong, your knowledge in the past was just in the wrong order

Cheers

:clap: :clap:

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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

Centaur wrote:Quran a jigsaw puzzle? Can you explain your version of 5:33? Do you by any chance believe that Mohammed practiced Islam? Don't say you don't fear allahs he'll, what you think of the verse Allah providing another skin on e the original one is burnt off?
Dear Centaur,I have explained 5/6th of the quran and have given the link as well. So kindly read surah 5 and see what you get. In fact it is possible that you may understand the quran better than me. You can read mullahs interpretations and mine and see which of them explained the quran better. Again I have provided the link to so many online translations already.

The main problem is the lack of understanding how quranic time arabic work as compared to english of today. Over a period of time use of language is becoming more and more limited or if you like precise. In ancient arabic a word root could have hundreds of concepts attached to it. And thousand of words could be used just to express one thing due to vastness of meanings attached to words.

The main thing people need to realise is that to understand anything man has to first become aware of himself ie he has to be able to discover use of his own brain and senses and body parts. Anyone who has not done that could not do anything else at all.

The second thing people need to realise is that they need to come to grips with realities all around mankind. Unless people learn from interaction with other things they cannot find out how to understand anything. All this involves a lot of trial and error.

Only after have learned this much people can get sense of getting information and putting it together for making sense of it. This being the case how could anyone claim that one understands the quran without having acquired the sense to understand it? The idea that the quran can be understood in isolation is utter nonsense because humans cannot understand anything in isolation let alone a scripture which is supposed to be base for a human society.

This is why first people need to grow up mentally as well as physically, individually as well socially only then their understanding of things can be relied upon. The Quran itself tells us that only those people can understand the quran who have reached the stage of learning where at they can make sense of things.

Let me ask you, if I say word tea, what sense it makes to a person who knows not the language or the concept attached to this word in reality? You will agree that it makes no sense at all to such a person. It is like talking to a six month old baby. He is not going to get up and put a cup of tea on your table. Only that person will be able to understand the words you speak who knows what they mean in reality. Likewise you do not derive meanings from the text alone but also need to attach then to real world realities. Then you need to look at the context in which words are expressed by a source. The main context comes from the source itself ie you cannot go outside the limits set by the text. In this context all texts are interactive because to discover the message of the author at best one has to take guesses and the guesses that seem to work will be the likely message of the text.

The point is not that you can prove a text wrong but can you prove a text right? If you claim a text cannot be proven right because you have tried and failed but I come along and prove it right then you lose the right to claim that it cannot be proven right because someone has proven right. You see only and only that text can be said to be proven wrong which nobody can prove right. So long as even one person can prove a point it is proven and the whole world cannot disprove it even if it sticks together.

This is why I realised that rather than arguing about the quran haphazardly I should look into things and see if there is any way to prove the quranic text is right. That is how I ended up studying the quran again and in much more detail than ever before. The result is going to come before eyes of people may be not in too distance future. If my interpretation of the quran succeeds then nobody in the world will be able to argue against the quran be one mullah or atheist. If my work fails then at least I will come to know that people who talk against the quran are right. So far signs are so strong that the quran is word of God that any little problems could be ignored for now. The best part for all people who oppose the quran is to hope that I do not succeed in correctly interpreting the quran.Even if I fail to explain a few things here and there that will only show my lack of knowledge just like my explanation shows lack of knowledge on part of those who could not explain things that i a have managed to explain satisfactorily. So please do keep an open mind at least.

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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

frankie wrote:
Are these problems caused by scriptures or stupidity of people who divide our world and want to keep it divided?
Mughal:

Good question, one you should be addressing to the fake belief system named Islam, which by its very nature commands the very stupidity and division you highlight.

If you are so opposed to "scriptures or stupidity of people who divide our world and want to keep it divided" then you must address Islamic scripture, which command division and intolerance, leading to hatred of all "unbelievers "leading to violence towards "unbelievers" which interestingly doesn't make it onto your list.

Why is that?
Dear frankie, you are making a big mistake in telling me islam is a fake belief system. This shows like mullahs you have no clue either as to what islam really is. Islam is AD-DEEN not AL-MAZHAB. It is an evidence based way of life so it cannot be fake. Please find out the difference between deen and mazhab.

regards and all the best.

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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

You said, "In short what you say is people corrupted the true message of quran. In that case it means Allah has failed to preserve his teachings. Any failure on Allah;s part means he is not God. Now here are a few questions for you"

I did not say people corrupted divine message but they did interfere with peoples' understanding of the message. However God gave people brains and ability to catch each other out if they wish. Now if world decide to go to sleep instead of using its so many brains then that is their choice.

"1)why didn’t Allah entrust his book in the reliable hands who would take care that his message won’t be distorted?"

Who are reliable hands and if he did that will people like you still not ask same question, why not me?

"2) If people have been falsely representing and propagating a wrong message why didn’t Allah take corrective action? Why is he silent for last 1400 years?"

God is not silent people are delivering quranic copies at our doors and it is up to us to find out the truth or stay away. Some do others do other things that is their choice.

"3) If Allah is all knowing he already knew what was going to be the end result of sending the quran down to earth. The end result was terrorism, hatred of kafirs , mass scale killing etc. Doesn’t this mean that Allah wanted to cause havoc on earth?"

As for Allah, creation cannot know anything about him beyond what he told it himself. The idea that Allah is all aware does not means Allah knows the impossible. Allah only knows what he knows and he has not told us limits of his knowledge, so there is no point in arguing over things which neither of us can find out. Allah sent the quran for guidance of mankind and mankind are learning and one day they will reach the stage whereat the quran will become very useful for them. Allah is waiting for humanity to grow up so tat it could see things in a different light as grown up community.

As I said already people were fighting already long before the quran and the same reasons are still out there which make people fight each other so quran is not magic cure but knowledge based cure and people do not grow up overnight so things will take time to get where they need to be. This is how Allah set -up things and there is no better way to do things that suit purpose of Allah. If there is any other better way then people can put it forward for our examination before attacking the ideas told by God as to why he set up the world the way he did.

"4 ) If wealthy people, governments etc were all conspiring against the quran how are you sure that they have not changed the actual words of the quran? It seems you are comfortable with the idea that every single person was busy fabricating lies about the quran (for e.g fabricating ahadith) and yet on the other hand they were devout enough to NOT corrupt the quran itself."

The idea that people conspired against divine message is a verifiable fact. Ask people how many of them want to live the way the quran puts forth? Moreover what is the way the quran puts forth? Hint, it is not the mullahs' way. Why mullahs way looks bad and what is the real difference between islam put forth by mullahs and islam put forth by the quran? Do you know in the quran who are the people the quran condemns who stop mankind from the way of Allah? Surprise surprise they are mullahs.

Every single person today is living by working for money, a trap set by money lenders, the rulers supported by them and the mullahs supported by them. The money world is going to wars throughout the world to keep control over things through money mechanism and if anyone opposes them they use other means. Why people have been divided into many groups on basis that make no sense other than sense of domination and undermining? This did not start with the quran but long before quran. When people already have vested interests and someone comes along telling them leave this way of thinking because it is very bad,they turn against him and then they do anything thye can to try and inflict damage upon him including character assassination. So kindly widen your vision and look at how political opponents kill each other by character assassination. The quran itself quotes how people used to say silly things about divine messengers. If they did that when they were alive then why not when they were dead and buried?



"Please explain to me in what way your explanation has worked out well. Please give an example to substantiate your point. As I asked you previously , please explain to us 4:34 from the quran and how others have got it wrong otherwise this is just a vague claim."

As I said before, language of quran needs to be paid attention. Each word used in the quran has a root and each root has various concepts attached to it. In some cases a few roots work as one Take word NISAA, it has a few roots even in Arabic which is an indication that this root originated from a few different predecessor languages. Roots are NOON,SEEN and ALIF. NOON SEEN and WOW, NOON SEEN and YAA and ALIF, NOON and SEEN. Please look up root based dictionaries to see what I am talking about and then see how many different meanings are explained about each of these roots. For the context read the surah I have given the link.

The point you and others need to realise is that if all people studied the quran the way it was supposed to be studied then imagine what kind of great books of tafaseer we could have had. It is because mullahs have been an obstacle in the way of quran so works needed done on the quran have been prevented by imperial power.

Even a blind person can see that quran repeatedly condemns division in humanity and tells the prophet you have nothing to do with such people who work for dividing humanity. It talks about brotherhood. It is not just one thing but many such things that when brought together tell us very clearly where the quran is trying to take us despite wrong translations to mask the quranic message.


"I do have ground because quran claims to be for entire mankind. Entire mankind consists of experts, non experts, beginners, amateurs etc. So I do have a case to argue otherwise the claim that quran is for entire mankind is false. It would mean quran is only for experts which is self defeating."

Well, language does have limitations so people should be able to make proper sense of things. When we use word humanity we still mean only people we mean that are relevant to our subject matter not humnaity as a whole, for many have gone before us. Likewise the quran only means people that are there and from among them those who can benefit at any given time. Children who grow up and interested in knowing things.


"Let us take a specific example. Consider verse 65:4 from the quran. Look at all the tafsirs. Each one of them comes up with the same explanation i.e. the verse talks about marrying pre-pubescent kids. If everyone was fabricating we would find different stories". It cannot happen that everyone decides to lie and comes up with the same thing. In some cases tafsirs do disagree however when we are dealing with such a large quantity of data , some disagreements are bound to be there. Finally just because tafsirs scholars do not agree with them on some counts is no proof that you are someone different. Btw I was referring to translators of quran and not tafsir scholars. Roughly (not exactly) all the renowned and standard translations of quran say the same thing. They do differ on some counts but the deviation is not radical as in case of your translation."


Dear skynightblaze,I have not reached that far yet in my interpretation I have only done up to surah 1-46 so far from the beginning side and from 92-114 at the other end. It will take time before I do surah 65. So there is nothing I can say about it at the moment till I study it in detail according to my current knowledge of the quran text. I was the one who brought it up for discussion on this forum long ago. So kindly allow me the time to get there. I have 19 more surahs to do before I get to it.

As I said before I want to complete my work on quran before I enter discussion because then people can see where I am coming from and why. Random discussion without any work to base them upon are not really a good idea in my view.

regards and all the best.

Mughal
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Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by Mughal »

AhmedBahgat wrote:Dear Mughal

I apologise for this comment
-------------
AhmedBahgat wrote:
What I am positive is the fact that Mughal from all humans did not understand the Quran
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Sorry, I did not know that you now understand the Quran, however I always said about you even when we were enemies, that you are knowledgeable, and I guess I was not wrong, your knowledge in the past was just in the wrong order

Cheers

:clap: :clap:
Not to worry dear ahmedbahgat, I did not mind bro. Thanks for your kind remarks.

regards and all the best.

sum
Posts: 6579
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

I still have not had a clear answer from you as to whether Muhammad fully understood the Koranic message and whether his recorded words and deeds ever contradicted the Koranic guidance.

If his recorded words and deeds did contradict the Koranic guidance there does not appear to be any criticism by Allah of the un-Islamic words and deeds. What can we conclude from this?

sum

piscohot
Posts: 2187
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:16 am

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by piscohot »

AhmedBahgat wrote:Mughal is right, all humanity hardly understand the Quran, including the so called Muslims, only the minority understands the Quran.

Happy for you Mughal

And you boys and girls, keep it itchy
this so called minority do not understand the quran. They merely cannot come to terms with the fact that the quran is full of mistakes, contradictions and violence. So instead, they made up their own interpretations of the quran and called the majority ignorant.

ps: you should read Mughal's interpretation before you commit any further, Bahgat.
Quran miracle (16:69) : Bees eat ALL fruits
Quran miracle (27:18) : an ant SAID, "O ants, enter your dwellings that you not be crushed by Solomon and his soldiers while they perceive not."

frankie
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Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: has humanity understood the quran properly?

Post by frankie »

Mughal wrote:
frankie wrote:
Are these problems caused by scriptures or stupidity of people who divide our world and want to keep it divided?
Mughal:

Good question, one you should be addressing to the fake belief system named Islam, which by its very nature commands the very stupidity and division you highlight.

If you are so opposed to "scriptures or stupidity of people who divide our world and want to keep it divided" then you must address Islamic scripture, which command division and intolerance, leading to hatred of all "unbelievers "leading to violence towards "unbelievers" which interestingly doesn't make it onto your list.

Why is that?
Dear frankie, you are making a big mistake in telling me islam is a fake belief system. This shows like mullahs you have no clue either as to what islam really is. Islam is AD-DEEN not AL-MAZHAB. It is an evidence based way of life so it cannot be fake. Please find out the difference between deen and mazhab.

regards and all the best.
Mughal,

So you admit that the Quran is not able to be understood, even by those who are the teachers of it.The implications are then, that all Muslims are so mis informed about their faith, that they cannot properly act out in their lives what their faith tells them, consequently all Muslims are so totally mis guided, they are destined for Hell, because they cannot grasp exactly what Allah is telling them, and therefore how to live their lives to attain salvation.

This can mean only one thing, that the author of the Quran cannot possibly be an omniscient being. An all knowing, all wise God by his very name and nature has to give a clear, unequivocal message to his creatures if he wants them to save their souls for paradise, and prevent them from going to Hell.Otherwise,what is the point of any god using his time and energy to give any sort of message that cannot be understood?

From what you keep saying, this has not happened, and all Muslims are totally clueless, even the Muslims who have studied their scriptures for centuries to codify them, they still haven't understood Allah's message properly enough, to enable them to pass on this knowledge to their faithful, a faithful who rely heavily on their teachers to instruct them in what is said to be "the one true religion"?
It is an evidence based way of life so it cannot be fake
If you want evidence to prove Islam is a fake, then look no further than who Allah actually is, an already known Arabian pagan entity, who had "daughters", or more correctly goddesses,as intercessors.

see links:
http://thaliatook.com/AMGG/arabtriple.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://wathanism.blogspot.co.uk/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Pagan_Origins_of_Islam" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mughal, by your own admission you have proved beyond doubt, the Quran cannot possibly be from any divine origin, but is a man made article full of errors and contradictions, mirroring 7th century pagan Arabian culture, incorporating Pre Islamic religious ritual and belief.

If it is to be believed that Mohammed is "mankind's best example" to follow, then he shows by his ways and example to be a man of violence, which in turn makes Muslims men of violence. If you say that Mohammed failed to understand Allah's message correctly, and this is why he was as violent as he was, then the answer remains the same. Allah failed in his mission to give Mohammed, and therefore Muslims, a clear enough message for them to put Allah's will into action correctly enough, to help save their souls from Hell.

So, which ever way you want to play this game of yours, Allah is the failure in all this mess.

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