Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

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frankie
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Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by frankie »

Can the Muslims on this Forum quote from Jewish sources to justify the Quranic claim that "Jews call Uzair a son of Allah"? 9.30

Allah,who is allegedly the author of the Quran, is in effect saying that Jews call a human being called Uzair his (Allahs) son,which doesn't on the face of it make sense,as the O.T. calls the Abrahamic God either,I am, El Ohim or Yahweh.

Perhaps Muslims can make sense of it, by submitting the Islamic reasonings behind this verse.

If evidence cannot be shown from Jewish sources, then the Quran is, yet again in error.
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manfred
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Re: Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by manfred »

quran 9:30
The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
Uzair is the biblical Ezra.

There is no evidence that Jews called Ezra "son of God", despite of various writings to that effect, all by Muslims, and all written centuries after the Qur'an. To make this claim believable we would need a JEWISH source from before the Qur'an.

In 2 Esdas (4 Ezra) 4:46 we find a mention of a son of God:

In the text Ezra is discussing a vision with an angel. He describes what he sees and asked for an explanation. There are several such passaged, and here is one:
Then said I unto the angel, What young person is it that crowns them, and gives them palms in their hands?
So he answered and said unto me, It is the Son of God, whom they have confessed in the world.
As in this text Ezra is asking an angel a question about something he sees, and not about anything he himself does, it is clear that the "son of God" does not refer to Ezra himself.

Mohammed got confused again.... He probably heard something about a Jewish text involving Ezra and a "son of God", so he concluded Jew must say that Ezra is the son of God. Clearly he never saw the text.

So this is yet another mistake in the quran....
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frankie
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Re: Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by frankie »

manfred wrote:
quran 9:30
The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
Uzair is the biblical Ezra.

There is no evidence that Jews called Ezra "son of God", despite of various writings to that effect, all by Muslims, and all written centuries after the Qur'an. To make this claim believable we would need a JEWISH source from before the Qur'an.

In 2 Esdas (4 Ezra) 4:46 we find a mention of a son of God:

In the text Ezra is discussing a vision with an angel. He describes what he sees and asked for an explanation. There are several such passaged, and here is one:
Then said I unto the angel, What young person is it that crowns them, and gives them palms in their hands?
So he answered and said unto me, It is the Son of God, whom they have confessed in the world.
As in this text Ezra is asking an angel a question about something he sees, and not about anything he himself does, it is clear that the "son of God" does not refer to Ezra himself.

Mohammed got confused again.... He probably heard something about a Jewish text involving Ezra and a "son of God", so he concluded Jew must say that Ezra is the son of God. Clearly he never saw the text.

So this is yet another mistake in the quran....
Manfred:
There is no evidence that Jews called Ezra "son of God", despite of various writings to that effect, all by Muslims, and all written centuries after the Qur'an. To make this claim believable we would need a JEWISH source from before the Qur'an.
Thanks for your input.

Exactly so,Muslims would need to quote from Jewish sources to validate their claim,which will be hard to find, as the Jews would be committing blasphemy nameing a person as a son of God.And so, it is most unlikely to be found,unless we can be proved wrong.

Can the Muslim posters provide evidence to prove us unbelievers wrong,and in doing so validate the Quranic claim?

If no such evidence can be found,you must concede that the Quran is in error once again,proving that its origins are not divine, but only the writings of a deluded 7th century Arabian,looking to gain power,wealth and control from those gullible enough to believe in his self proclaimed prophethood.
Eagle
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Re: Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by Eagle »

frankie wrote:Can the Muslims on this Forum quote from Jewish sources to justify the Quranic claim that "Jews call Uzair a son of Allah"? 9.30
Can you quote a non-Chrisitan source for Paul's accusations in Col2:18 regarding Jewish worship of angels?

Why would anyone argue that the Quran isnt making reliable historical observations to the beliefs of the Arabian peninsula? It is already well-documented that not all Jews had the same beliefs. Even within the OT and NT, one finds competing theologies such as the Sadducees' disbelief in the resurrection, while it is a pillar of the orthodox Jewish belief.

Ezra was believed to have ascended up to heaven without dying by certain Jews, just as Christians argued Jesus ascended to heaven. There is nothing far-fetched in the assertion of the Jews, their over exaltation of Ezra especially in the context of the religious competition that existed between the two religions in the Arabian peninsula. The Quran often references this, and the following verse is a similar style to the one in question 2:113"And the Jews say: The Christians do not follow anything (good) and the Christians say: The Jews do not follow anything (good) while they recite the (same) Book. Even thus say those who have no knowledge, like to what they say; so Allah shall judge between them on the day of resurrection in what they differ". It was in such religious prejudice that the Jews and Christians would even go as far as condemning their opponents on matters that had religious basis from the book they shared. 9:30 is an example of the religious prejudices reaching extremes, but in this case, their extreme prejudice caused them to utter words of unbelief regarding their own religious figures. The next verse states 9:31"They have taken their doctors of law and their monks for lords besides Allah, and (also) the Messiah son of Marium and they were enjoined that they should serve one Allah only, there is no god but He; far from His glory be what they set up (with Him)".
Notice that the Quran does not mentioned the case of Ezra while it reiterates the false belief concerning Jesus. This means that what the Quran wants to lay stress on is the religous prejudices that caused them to utter such things even to each other. They were not interested in proclaiming the truth, they were interested in their partisanship, even at the expense of the truth. Serving God, as the above verse states, is not in their equation.

Also, the fact that only Jesus is mentionned as being taken for a god, shows that it is not the case for Ezra.

Elsewhere the Quran rebukes the people of the book for that same attitude, while abusing the phrase "son of God" metaphorically on themselves 5:18, with each claiming a special relationship with God while his mercy and guidance do not belong to a race or group but to all, and neither does His justice discriminate among any group regardless of their claims.

Besides exposing the prejudice of the people of the book towards eachother even at the expense of the truth, 9:30 warns both groups for their excessive usage of the phrase to personalities whom they exalted. Again this verse specifically mentions Ezra whom they had overly exalted, not that they worshipped him as a god, just as Paul's accusation of the Jews in Col2:18 for worshipping angels does not mean these Jews worshipped them as gods, a practice without any historical basis. This exaltation and appelation implies that someone might be compared in essence to God, belittling Him greatly when everything in the heavens and earth bow to His will willingly or unwillingly 3:83,19:88-95,13:15,22:18.
This title is so much honor no one deserves, not the greatest prophets or angels, not anything of His creation. The greatest of the greatest creations, although honored and drawn near to Allah, are only fit to be called His slaves 19:93,21:26"And they say: The Beneficent Allah has taken to Himself a son. Glory be to Him. Nay! they are honored servants".
frankie wrote:the O.T. calls the Abrahamic God either,I am,
No, in the Septuagint Exod3:14 God reportedly tells Moses "i am/ego eimi the existing one/o on. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM/O ON (mistranslated as "I am") has sent me to you".

"o on" means "the being or the existing one" so you can forget right away the useless trinitarian connection with Jn8:58 where "I am" is "ego eimi" NOT "o on". Also, the same ego eimi(i am) is used all over the NT for Jesus and others. Jesus did not speak Greek anyway and in the Hebrew of Exod3:14, "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" literaly means "I will be what I will be" OR "I shall be that which I shall be" the phrase is in the future tense, not in the present tense -- meaning He is as He was as He will be, ie unchanging as often repeated throughout the Tanakh Mal3:6. In "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" Ehyeh is a first person future tense conjugation of the verb "to be".
frankie wrote:El Ohim or Yahweh.
17:110"Call upon Allah or call upon, Al-Rahman; whichever you call upon, He has the best names"

The most obvious of God's attributes is Rahm. The Hebrew equivalent of "rhm", is also found in Deut4:31,Ps86:15 again to stress an important attribute of God from a human perspective, which is why both Jews and Christians referred to God as Rahman even in pre-Islamic times.
Allah is used today by both Arab Jews and Christians. It is known that Hebrew, like Arabic, as semitic languages have triliteral roots for every word yet with the course of time many Hebrew words lost one of the 3 stem letters, forcing Hebrew linguists to reach the correct view regarding a Hebrew word in light of its usage in the Arabic; for the latter is the most perfect Semitic language. It is nearer to or is actually the original source of these languages, as the scholars of the Semitic languages have come to hold. Some Christian orientalists also recognize this fact. That is what happenned to the word ALLAH, of which only EL remained hence its use in the Hebrew Bible for many meanings, including God or powerful wordly leaders, while there should have been a clear linguistic seperation between every meaning had the initial triliteral root been preserved. That is also why they have considered YHWH (a noun they lost the proper pronounciation of despite having kept its correct root) the most revered, and distinct name of God, as revealed to Moses Ex6:2-3 instead of EL.

But Allah also has many different proper names that can be used instead, to evoke His attributes, and that sound completely different than Allah, which is why different nations and cultures might refer to the Supreme God with phonetically different names.
frankie wrote:the Quran is, yet again in error.
:clap:
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frankie
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Re: Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by frankie »

Eagle:
Ezra was believed to have ascended up to heaven without dying by certain Jews
You don't provide evidence for this claim,but in any case is irrelevant to the point,as the Jewish people would be guilty of blasphemy if they claimed one of their well respected scholars to be a son of God,and would be executed on this basis.

Also, the fact that only Jesus is mentionned as being taken for a god, shows that it is not the case for Ezra.
Quran 9.30 clearly says "The Jews call Uzair the son of Allah",in the same sentence as mentioning "Christ the Son of Allah" both are taken as sons of Allah.

My question is, where is this specified in Jewish sources for Allah to make his claim,"The Jews call Uzair the son Of Allah"?
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manfred
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Re: Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by manfred »

Ezra was believed to have ascended up to heaven without dying by certain Jews
oh dear... :lol2:

In Judaism there were several people who where taken to the "skies" not to heaven, a concept developed later than many Old testament texts.

Elijah (Kings II Chapter 2, Verse 11)
Enoch (Genesis 5:22-24)

Then, in some very much later texts not part of the Hebrew bible, and never part of the the Jewish canon, Ezra is also described to have made such a journey. It is therefore false to say that this story is part of the Jewish belief system.


Now, talking about Islam, What was that story again about Mohammed and that little horsy with an woman's head? Where did Mohammed go? Was he dead or alive then?

Image

And Jesus, when Allah pulled his deception trick on Golgatha, where was Islamic Jesus taken? Was he dead then?

So, using your own logic, do we need to say that both Mohammed and Jesus are sons of Allah in Islam? (Mohammed the favourite maybe?)

You seem to suggest that if there is a story of someone going to heaven(s) without dying then he must be a son of Allah.

So, it seems you are telling us Islam is shirk...
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Eagle
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Re: Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:It is therefore false to say that this story is part of the Jewish belief system.
You need to go back to what was said, and it isnt what you claim
manfred wrote:Now, talking about Islam, What was that story again about Mohammed and that little horsy with an woman's head? Where did Mohammed go? Was he dead or alive then?
There is no question of acension in the Quran, if you're talking of the night journey. But what is bothering you with the concept anyway
manfred wrote:And Jesus, when Allah pulled his deception trick on Golgatha, where was Islamic Jesus taken? Was he dead then?
Sure he was caused to die, and as far as "deception", take your claim there viewtopic.php?f=21&t=14095&start=20#p191671" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and defend it properly, not by reiterating your lousy and irrelevant points that were already addressed in the link
manfred wrote:So, using your own logic, do we need to say that both Mohammed and Jesus are sons of Allah in Islam?
Since when did anyone's logic predicate that ascending to heaven means being Allah's son
manfred wrote:You seem to suggest that if there is a story of someone going to heaven(s) without dying then he must be a son of Allah.
You need to quote the part causing you to think that way
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manfred
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Re: Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by manfred »

Ok, I am glad we have that out of the way then. So even to mention the ascent of Ezra was, yet another, smoke screen. This one had a bad smell and fell apart very quickly, because it would open a lot of other cans of worms.... Sometimes making you smell the odor is the quickest way to clear the air.

Now, "THE JEWS [not some of them] call 'Uzair a son of Allah." Nor does the text say "Some Jews have said that Ezra was raised to the heavens", which you obviously would prefer...

Manifestly NO JEWS call Ezra the son of Allah. They never even heard of Allah until Mohammed rammed him down their throats, except for possibly a small number who knew vaguely of him when he still was just the moon god, and not Mohammed's invisible friend.

So, we are all agreed that this is another error?
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Re: Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by Eagle »

The bit about Ezra ascending to heaven was there to corroborate the point that he was overly exalted by certain groups of Jews, blinded by their partisanship and competition with the Christians. Learn to pay attention.

Sure its talking about the Jews, those of the prophet Muhammad's time and space or did you think the verse was calling out the Jews of Europe
manfred wrote:Manifestly NO JEWS call Ezra the son of Allah
Produce your proof to the contrary in order to disprove the Quran as a reliable historical testimony to the beliefs of the Arabian peninsula, and then quote a non-Chrisitan source for Paul's accusations in Col2:18 regarding Jewish worship of angels.
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manfred
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Re: Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by manfred »

Produce your proof to the contrary in order to disprove the Quran as a reliable historical testimony to the beliefs of the Arabian peninsula, and then quote a non-Chrisitan source for Paul's accusations in Col2:18 regarding Jewish worship of angels.
"Qur'an as a reliable historical testimony" :lotpot: Now, that is really silly.... stop it. We could fill a book with the historical blunders in the Qur'an.

Also, the rules of evidence say that the POSITIVE claim has burden of proof.

The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, the quran says. Not some Jews. Not some of the Jews in Arabia. In fact there there is not a shred of evidence that ANY Jews EVER made such a claim. If there was even just one, he would have been seen as a blasphemer. But the quran does not say some Jews or one Jew. "The Jews", it says. This is so obviously wrong that I am amazing we even need to discuss it.

Now, as to the other nonsense... Paul wrote this:
Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions.
He speaks not of Jews but of false teachers and prophets.

Just before it says
Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day.

This seems to make it clearer... he speaks out against the visionaries and Judaisers in the early Christian communities. He wants people to understand that neither slavish observance of rituals nor fancy visions and prophecies are the way of Christianity.


Now, who was telling people what to eat, how the New moon ends the fast, and how an angel taught him the Qur'an?

Uncanny, isn't it? Not surprisingly Paul is not popular with Muslims.
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Eagle
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Re: Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:We could fill a book with the historical blunders in the Qur'an.
Show 1
manfred wrote:Also, the rules of evidence say that the POSITIVE claim has burden of proof
In a situation where the opposite party is denying the charge, which isnt the case of the Jews spoken of in the verse. No matter your denial, the Quran has shown itself to be an accurate testimony of the atmosphere prevailing in the time, there is no reason to assume it is specifically wrong on this charge
manfred wrote:The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, the quran says. Not some Jews.
Of course not "some". All the Jews addressed, and the Quran is calling out those of the prophet Muhammad's time and place
manfred wrote:In fact there there is not a shred of evidence that ANY Jews EVER made such a claim. If there was even just one, he would have been seen as a blasphemer.
Are you now making the ridiculous claim that Jewish beliefs and practices were uniform? turn to your own scriptures and see how uniform their theologies have always been
manfred wrote:he speaks out against the visionaries and Judaisers in the early Christian communities.
There is absolutely no question of visionaries in Paul's statements. He is speaking to gentiles trying to convince them of the irrelevency of Jewish ways while denigrating their beliefs. Although puzzled by the "difficulty" of this passage, Christian scholars and commentators have never been able to find evidence for such claim and none denied it being addressed to the Jews, as is obvious to anyone from the text. Some have even contended that the often repeated notion of God's superiority over angels found in the book of Hebrew is meant at refuting the Jews's excessive exaltation of angels.

But im still waiting for non-Christian sources corroborating Paul's claim that Jews once worshipped angels. Notice also that he does not make any distinction among them, meaning according to your logic, all Jews of the world were targeted
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Re: Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by frankie »

Eagle:
Produce your proof to the contrary in order to disprove the Quran as a reliable historical testimony to the beliefs of the Arabian peninsula
As pointed out,if the Jews did call a person "son of Allah" they would have been guilty of blasphemy,incurring the death penalty,so it's highly unlikely this was said by any Jew.

You are now saying that the Quran is "reliable historical testimony to the beliefs of the Arabian peninsula"but if you are a Muslim you know that is not the case.Muslims hold the Quran to be the literal word from Allah,clear and eternal guidence for Muslims to follow for all time and places.If you want to claim the Quran is a "reliable historical testimony" you are disagreeing with Allahs literal words.

So we can take it that you concede the Quran is in error,as you can bring no firm evidence for the claim that "The Jews call Uzair the son of Allah",because there is none.
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Re: Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by manfred »

But im still waiting for non-Christian sources corroborating Paul's claim that Jews once worshipped angels.
Another false tu quoque.

Jews are not mentioned even once in the whole of Col. 2 You are asking for corroborating evidence of something Paul did not say.
Show 1
Read the forum. It's all over the place.

the Quran has shown itself to be an accurate testimony
The qur'an has shown itself to be a tool for Mohammed to control people, no more. It is pitifully lacking in scientific and historical accuracy.
All the Jews addressed
Good. So show us how all Jews believe that Ezra is the son of Allah... Surely there must be even ONE tiny bit of evidence for that difficult to hide fact, outside the Qur'an?

There is none? Well, any conclusions on your part?
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Re: Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:Another false tu quoque
Its not "another" but the same argument about what Paul stated in Col2:18, and its not "tu quoque" since the aim of the argument isnt to justify the ridiculous assertion that the verse 9:30 is speaking of the Jews of the entire world
manfred wrote:Read the forum. It's all over the place.
Thats not answering the question, show 1 of the so called errors you're speaking of
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Re: Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by Eagle »

frankie wrote:As pointed out,if the Jews did call a person "son of Allah" they would have been guilty of blasphemy
Your Tanakh is full of such appelations to different personalities
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Re: Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by manfred »

the ridiculous assertion that the verse 9:30 is speaking of the Jews of the entire world
Earlier you agreed with that, now it seems not...

So do tell us which Jews is the Qur'an speaking of? And why did it not explain it? Maybe the Qur'an needs another prophet to explain it better, like you?

The Jews call Ezra the son of allah, the Qur'an claims. The Jews in general. Son of "allah" ... ALLAH??? :lotpot:

Can you point at even ONE such Jew?

And you want people to take such an idiotic book not only seriously, but you claim that it has divine authorship. What does that make this allah? A complete moron, obviously.
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Re: Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by frankie »

Eagle:
Your Tanakh is full of such appelations to different personalities
[/quote]

Evidence please

You need to get past this one most fundamental fact:
if the Jews did call a person "son of Allah" they would have been guilty of blasphemy,evidence shown below from source;


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uzair" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Such as in Islam, a fundamental tenet of Judaism is that God is not bound by any limitations of time, matter, or space, and that the idea of any person being God, a part of God, or a mediator to God, is heresy.[12] The Book of Ezra, which Judaism accepts as a chronicle of the life of Ezra and which predates Muhammad and the Qur'an by around 1000 years, gives Ezra's human lineage as being the son of Seraiah and a direct descendant of Aaron. Tractate Ta'anit of the Jerusalem Talmud, which predates Muhammad by two to three hundred years, states explicitly that “if a man claims to be God, he is a liar.”[13] Furthermore Exodus Rabba 29 says, "'I am the first and I am the last, and beside Me there is no God' I am the first, I have no father; I am the last, I have no brother. Beside Me there is no God; I have no son."[14] However the term 'sons of gods' occurs in Genesis.[15] There are differing interpretations of what this means.[16]

Verse 9.30 is increasingly being shown to be on very shaky ground.

This is just one obvious mistake in the Quran,giving firm evidence that the writings in it cannot possibly be from a divine source.

On this basis then why are you still a Muslim?
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Re: Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by kaimana1 »

Hi frankie and manfred- I noticed that you use yusuf alis translation of 9 :30

The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
However if you compare that to the actual arabic you will get this

وَقَالَتِ الْيَهُودُ عُزَيْرٌ ابْنُ اللَّهِ وَقَالَتِ النَّصَارَى الْمَسِيحُ ابْنُ اللَّهِ ذَٰلِكَ قَوْلُهُم بِأَفْوَاهِهِمْ يُضَاهِئُونَ قَوْلَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا مِن قَبْلُ قَاتَلَهُمُ اللَّهُ أَنَّىٰ يُؤْفَكُونَ
Waqalati alyahoodu AAuzayrun ibnu Allahi waqalati alnnasara almaseehu ibnu Allahi thalika qawluhum bi-afwahihim yudahi-oona qawla allatheena kafaroo min qablu qatalahumu Allahu anna yu/fakoona
These two colored sentences are paralel to a tee there is no "a" for uzair being son of god it is the son of god.

anyways theres two explanations for the verse ; one is in arabic ibnou sounds similar to the hebrew banou meaning messenger- so mo probably heard some jews in his medina days refer to ezra as the banou and he thought it was same as son of or ibnu

the second theory and most likely- is that mo deliberately put the jews in the same circle as the christians. after all it was amongst the last slew of verses that was revealed to muhammad according to the ijma of the ulema- he had his eyes on tabuk which was populated by christian arabs- with that being said muhammad and his merry band had just destroyed and pillaged the last jewish stonghold at khaybar in the hijaz - a couple of years prior to this revelation. He was equating the jews with the christians to give his new converts the same zeal to go after the christians. After all, the verse goes on to say may allah kill them (or destroy them)
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Re: Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by manfred »

@kai
Thank you for reminding me of that... I am sure I read that somewhere before, but I completely forgot. Yes, that is exactly right.

It seems even Muslims translators tried to get out of a sticky situation by massaging the text...

As always, when a Muslim does not like what the Qur'an says, he changes it, hoping nobody notices. Even the translators...
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Re: Who is Uzair mentioned in Quran 9.30

Post by kaimana1 »

manfred wrote:@kai
Thank you for reminding me of that... I am sure I read that somewhere before, but I completely forgot. Yes, that is exactly right.

It seems even Muslims translators tried to get out of a sticky situation by massaging the text...

As always, when a Muslim does not like what the Qur'an says, he changes it, hoping nobody notices. Even the translators...

You are 110% correct- it gets worse amatul rahman omar's translations says
There are some of the Jews who say, `Ezra is the son of Allah,' while the Christians say, `The Messiah is the son of Allah.' These are mere words that they speak. They.....
Some translators will change the quran when they feel the verse isnt clear- while ignoring 41:3 at the same time. :nono:
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