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Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 7:34 pm
by manfred
Ah, now it makes sense. So you are saying flightless birds evolved from birds that once could fly.

Now, what do you think about evolution?

Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:10 pm
by Garudaman
manfred wrote:Now, what do you think about evolution?

evolution will not happen without a supportive environment! so, no supportive environment, no evolution! :turban:

Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Tue Oct 23, 2012 8:38 pm
by manfred
So, does the environment "steer" evolution?

Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 4:47 pm
by Garudaman
yes!

Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Wed Oct 24, 2012 9:17 pm
by manfred
OK...

So is Allah not needed then? Did Allah create something? What?

Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:29 am
by Garudaman
manfred wrote:So is Allah not needed then?

you mean, supportive environment is was not set/created by The Designer/Creator? :ermm:

manfred wrote:Did Allah create something? What?

everything is set/created by The Designer/Creator, or do you want to prove, that a supportive environment, is a result of evolution, of the environment that does not support? you mean, environment could evolve? :???:

Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Thu Oct 25, 2012 8:57 am
by manfred
you mean, supportive environment is was not set/created by The Designer/Creator?


Can you prove that, or is that something you believe

you mean, environment could evolve?


We have a lot of evidence that environments change. Look at your own country. Some islands have animals would would find in Asia. But other Islands, like Irian Jaya, have animals similar to Australia. Why? Indonesia was not always just islands.

There are hundred of examples of environmental changes. So environments change, evolution causes animals to adapt to the changes.

We have plate tectonics, climate change, and even changes caused by living organisms themselves, to name a few.

Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:11 am
by Garudaman
manfred wrote:Can you prove that, or is that something you believe

because too much of a coincidence, so it is much more difficult to prove otherwise (I mean it does not really come from a what I believe)! :ermm:

manfred wrote:We have a lot of evidence that environments change. Look at your own country. Some islands have animals would would find in Asia. But other Islands, like Irian Jaya, have animals similar to Australia. Why? Indonesia was not always just islands.

There are hundred of examples of environmental changes. So environments change, evolution causes animals to adapt to the changes.

We have plate tectonics, climate change, and even changes caused by living organisms themselves, to name a few.

what I mean is, if the environment it evolved like a living organism, which evolved to maintain its existence (not merely change without purpose)? :nono1:

Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:33 am
by Garudaman
Jimi wrote:Wow that Video is cool. The Muslim response is a jump in logic. Thanks for the post

you know, air not only have the characteristics that make a bird can fly, but also have characteristics that make the bird fly more efficiently :
Spoiler! :
Dynamic Soaring :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_soaring

Some seabirds dynamically soar by repeatedly diving into the valleys of ocean waves, and then wheeling back up into the air. Albatrosses are particularly adept at exploiting the technique and they use it to travel many thousands of miles using very little energy from flapping. When the bird pulls up into the wind out of the still air in the lee of a wave, it suddenly becomes exposed to a head wind, so the speed of the air over its wings increases. It then turns in the other direction and, with the wind behind it, dives back into the shelter of a wave. This also results in an increase in its air-speed. So by repeating this "wheeling" pattern, the bird can continue flying almost indefinitely without having to put in much effort besides steering. In effect it is harvesting energy from the wind gradient.
Lord Rayleigh first described dynamic soaring in 1883 in the British journal Nature[1]:

Image

Image

Image

Image

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 1110001072

Albatrosses fly long distances over the Southern Ocean, even around the world, almost without flapping their wings; this has raised interest in how they perform such a feat. On a cruise to the South Atlantic I observed albatrosses soaring in a characteristic swooping zigzag flight that appears to combine two soaring techniques to gain energy—wind–shear soaring (dynamic soaring) using the vertical gradient of wind velocity and wave-slope soaring using updrafts over waves. The observed characteristic swooping flight is shown in a new illustration and interpreted in terms of the two soaring techniques. The energy gain estimated for “typical conditions” in the Southern Ocean suggests that wind–shear soaring provides around 80–90% of the total energy required for sustained soaring. A much smaller percentage is provided by wind shear in light winds and significant swell when wave-slope soaring dominates. A simple dynamical model of wind–shear soaring is proposed based on the concept of a bird flying across a sharp wind–shear layer as first described by Lord Rayleigh in 1883 and later developed with Pennycuick’s (2002) description of albatrosses “gust soaring.” In gust soaring a bird exploits structures in the wind field, such as separated boundary layers and eddies in the lee of wave crests, to obtain energy by climbing headed upwind and descending headed downwind across a thin wind–shear layer. Benefits of the model are that it is simple to understand, it captures the essential dynamics of wind–shear soaring, and it provides reasonable estimates of the minimum wind shear required for travel velocity in different directions with respect to the wind. Travel velocities, given in a travel velocity polar diagram, can be combined with tacking to fly in an upwind direction faster than the wind speed located at the top of the wind–shear layer.


Thermal Soaring :

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/nature/q0253.shtml

Thermals are updrafts of warm air that rise from the ground into the sky. By flying a spiraling circular path within these columns of rising air, birds are able to "ride" the air currents and climb to higher altitudes while expending very little energy in the process. Solitary birds like eagles and hawks often take advantage of thermals to extend their flight time as they search for food. Social birds that fly in large flocks also use thermals to gain altitude and extend their range during migration. The sight of dozens or hundreds of birds riding a thermal has been said to resemble the water boiling in a kettle, so the terms kettle or boil are sometimes used as a nickname for a flock of birds circling in a thermal updraft. The benefits of thermals are not limited to the animal world either as glider pilots often take advantage of them to gain altitude as well.

Image

Image

Image

description about thermal soaring is simple matter, but description about dynamic soaring is rather difficult matter, without another cool video :


Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 12:30 am
by iffo
Garudaman wrote:
Jimi wrote:Wow that Video is cool. The Muslim response is a jump in logic. Thanks for the post

you know, air not only have the characteristics that make a bird can fly, but also have characteristics that make the bird fly more efficiently :
Spoiler! :
Dynamic Soaring :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_soaring

Some seabirds dynamically soar by repeatedly diving into the valleys of ocean waves, and then wheeling back up into the air. Albatrosses are particularly adept at exploiting the technique and they use it to travel many thousands of miles using very little energy from flapping. When the bird pulls up into the wind out of the still air in the lee of a wave, it suddenly becomes exposed to a head wind, so the speed of the air over its wings increases. It then turns in the other direction and, with the wind behind it, dives back into the shelter of a wave. This also results in an increase in its air-speed. So by repeating this "wheeling" pattern, the bird can continue flying almost indefinitely without having to put in much effort besides steering. In effect it is harvesting energy from the wind gradient.
Lord Rayleigh first described dynamic soaring in 1883 in the British journal Nature[1]:

Image

Image

Image

Image

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/ar ... 1110001072

Albatrosses fly long distances over the Southern Ocean, even around the world, almost without flapping their wings; this has raised interest in how they perform such a feat. On a cruise to the South Atlantic I observed albatrosses soaring in a characteristic swooping zigzag flight that appears to combine two soaring techniques to gain energy—wind–shear soaring (dynamic soaring) using the vertical gradient of wind velocity and wave-slope soaring using updrafts over waves. The observed characteristic swooping flight is shown in a new illustration and interpreted in terms of the two soaring techniques. The energy gain estimated for “typical conditions” in the Southern Ocean suggests that wind–shear soaring provides around 80–90% of the total energy required for sustained soaring. A much smaller percentage is provided by wind shear in light winds and significant swell when wave-slope soaring dominates. A simple dynamical model of wind–shear soaring is proposed based on the concept of a bird flying across a sharp wind–shear layer as first described by Lord Rayleigh in 1883 and later developed with Pennycuick’s (2002) description of albatrosses “gust soaring.” In gust soaring a bird exploits structures in the wind field, such as separated boundary layers and eddies in the lee of wave crests, to obtain energy by climbing headed upwind and descending headed downwind across a thin wind–shear layer. Benefits of the model are that it is simple to understand, it captures the essential dynamics of wind–shear soaring, and it provides reasonable estimates of the minimum wind shear required for travel velocity in different directions with respect to the wind. Travel velocities, given in a travel velocity polar diagram, can be combined with tacking to fly in an upwind direction faster than the wind speed located at the top of the wind–shear layer.


Thermal Soaring :

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/nature/q0253.shtml

Thermals are updrafts of warm air that rise from the ground into the sky. By flying a spiraling circular path within these columns of rising air, birds are able to "ride" the air currents and climb to higher altitudes while expending very little energy in the process. Solitary birds like eagles and hawks often take advantage of thermals to extend their flight time as they search for food. Social birds that fly in large flocks also use thermals to gain altitude and extend their range during migration. The sight of dozens or hundreds of birds riding a thermal has been said to resemble the water boiling in a kettle, so the terms kettle or boil are sometimes used as a nickname for a flock of birds circling in a thermal updraft. The benefits of thermals are not limited to the animal world either as glider pilots often take advantage of them to gain altitude as well.

Image

Image

Image

description about thermal soaring is simple matter, but description about dynamic soaring is rather difficult matter, without another cool video :



Guardman you are right it was god who created everything , hold everything in air.......... but it does not help you at all my friend, it does not prove Muhammad was a prophet? Muhammad was still fraud that you can not defend.

Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:44 am
by sum
Hello iffo

In another thread, I asked Garudaman if he believed in the concept of indoctrination where beliefs are instilled into the mind. He said "Yes". I have now asked whether he accepts that he might have had a falsehood - Islam - instilled into his mind but I am still waiting for an answer. Yos avoided answering the question when asked.

sum

Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Wed Nov 07, 2012 6:29 am
by piscohot
Garudaman wrote:you know, air not only have the characteristics that make a bird can fly, but also have characteristics that make the bird fly more efficiently :


So Allah cannot make a bird fly simply by saying: "be!" ?
Allah first need to create air so that birds can fly?

Likewise, Allah cannot create some new characteristics or features in existing creatures unless He first change the environment?

So it is not Allah who create the 'new' creatures, it's the 'environment' as you said.

Which would piss off Allah because Allah hates anyone altering his creation.

4:119 And I will mislead them, and I will arouse in them [sinful] desires, and I will command them so they will slit the ears of cattle, and I will command them so they will change the creation of Allah ."


Garudaman wrote:evolution will not happen without a supportive environment! so, no supportive environment, no evolution!


And of course to admit evolution, whether you claim it is due to the 'influence' of Allah's action on the enviroment, would also contradict this:

sura 30:30 So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know.

Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 9:33 am
by AhmedBahgat
Hey piss

How are you, I hope you are doing better after you decided to circumcise yourself, welcome to the clean world, piss

Cheers

Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 11:45 am
by piscohot
AhmedBahgat wrote:Hey piss

How are you, I hope you are doing better after you decided to circumcise yourself, welcome to the clean world, piss

Cheers


I knew you missed me, Ahmed.
how have you been?

By the way, which part of the quran said that you are to be circumcised in order to be clean?

and..which part of No change should there be in the creation of Allah that you failed to understand as a true muslim?

sura 30:30 So direct your face toward the religion, inclining to truth. [Adhere to] the fitrah of Allah upon which He has created [all] people. No change should there be in the creation of Allah . That is the correct religion, but most of the people do not know.

Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:24 pm
by AhmedBahgat
piss

I am doing great, thank you for asking

Now you are stupid to ask me the same fukin question again which I have answered you 10 times before, so don't let me replay the tape

Anyway, glad you have finally circumcised yourself, now you can find a woman who may do, you know, for you, imagine before, bloody filth, and if she does, it means she is a fukin dirty whore

Cheers

Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:34 pm
by piscohot
AhmedBahgat wrote:piss

I am doing great, thank you for asking

Now you are stupid to ask me the same fukin question again which I have answered you 10 times before, so don't let me replay the tape

Anyway, glad you have finally circumcised yourself, now you can find a woman who may do, you know, for you, imagine before, bloody filth, and if she does, it means she is a fukin dirty whore

Cheers


more like you choked on giving a proper answer 10 times before

this is no way to talk about your sister, ahmed

Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 12:39 pm
by AhmedBahgat
haha

good one, piss, but I was not talking about my sister, I was talking about your future and first girlfriend after spending all the previous years with males

Cheers

Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Thu Nov 08, 2012 2:00 pm
by ringmaster
AhmedBahgat wrote:haha

good one, piss, but I was not talking about my sister, I was talking about your future and first girlfriend after spending all the previous years with males

Cheers


We like to talk about your prophet whose mama spent nights with lots of guys.

Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 9:15 am
by AhmedBahgat
ringmaster wrote:
AhmedBahgat wrote:haha

good one, piss, but I was not talking about my sister, I was talking about your future and first girlfriend after spending all the previous years with males

Cheers


We like to talk about your prophet whose mama spent nights with lots of guys.


Who the fuk are you, dickhead?

I didn't talk to you, kid, therefore, fuk off

Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 1:53 pm
by iffo
Well well well look who is here, buddy Ahmed Bahgat, buddy hope you doing good. Where you been?

Bahgat I left Islam and I sincerely suggest you to do the same.