QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
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Garudaman
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QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Post by Garudaman »



birds can fly because with his wings, he can create low air pressure at the top of the wing and high pressure at the bottom of the wings ---> so in principle, birds can fly, because the air has a lift force!

QS 16:79. Do they not see the birds controlled in the atmosphere of the sky? None holds them up except Allah. Indeed in that are signs for a people who believe.

Atheist, can you explain how birds able evolved to fly, in case if air does not have characteristics has a lift force? :ermm:
Last edited by Garudaman on Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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manfred
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Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Post by manfred »

Dengan hormat....

first of all, it helps if you quote the Quran accurately.
Do they not look at the birds, held poised in the midst of (the air and) the sky? Nothing holds them up but (the power of) Allah. Verily in this are signs for those who believe.
It does not mention "atmosphere" anywhere, does it?

Then, it says that birds are held up in the air by the "(power of) Allah". No mention of aerodynamics at all. Birds can fly because Allah gives them a gentle push from underneath. That is what is tries to say. And that is a sign???

Seriously, because there are flying birds it follows by necessity and logically that Islam is the only true religion?

Please explain this to me, I am lost....
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"


sum
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Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Post by sum »

Hello Garudaman

Are your two posts the actual level of your intellect?

You are a godsend to us for clearly demonstrating what Islamic indoctrination does to the brain and its ability to think critically.

sum

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Garudaman
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Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Post by Garudaman »

sum wrote:Hello Garudaman

Are your two posts the actual level of your intellect?

You are a godsend to us for clearly demonstrating what Islamic indoctrination does to the brain and its ability to think critically.

sum
good if you're smart! so are you going to answer my question? :ermm:

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manfred
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Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Post by manfred »

Dear Garudaman,

if you are wondering how flight could have evolved in birds, well...

The ability to fly provides several evolutionary advantages, such as the ability to escape various preditors, the ability to reach places that are difficult for other animals, so the places can be used for food resources or nesting without much competition, and the ability to survey easily and quickly an area for food.

This means, in terms of evolution that the ability of flight has strong evolutionary pressure, so animals developing traits that help flight will be positively selected.

This pressure can be observed in the fact that flight has been developed in a fair number of animals. We have substantial numbers of insect species capable of flight. Their solution is very different to vertebrate flight.

Amongst vertebrates, flight developed three times, and each time using quite different anatomical solutions. The Pterosaurs, reptiles, had a modified single digit, a very long one. This allowed the development of wings. Birds have modified arms. Bats have modified hands. All would need a modified metabolism to allow increased oxygen intake, and changes to their muscular structure, too.

So birds are not unique. Why did the Qur'an not mention this? A real miracle would have been if the Qu'ran had given us a detailed description of pterosaurs' flight.

Now can you tell us about these birds "in the midth of [something] "AND THE SKY. Is the sky like a roof?

Also, you answered my point by claiming that the air is created by Allah. Well, then we must hear you proof for this claim. Otherwise the "sign" first requires a belief in Allah, in which is case it cannot be a sign at all.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

sum
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Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Post by sum »

Hello Garudaman

I repeat what I said.

Please look at your question again, switch your brain on if Islam has not destroyed it altogether and think for yourself.

There is nothing special about birds flying as you could ask similar questions about mammals that swim.

Please tell me if Allah actually exists and whether he/she is only a construct of Muhammad to help him with his lusts in life.

Are you capable of questioning Islam? Are you allowed to?

sum

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pr126
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Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Post by pr126 »

Garudaman is here to promote Islam. Doing da'wa as per Islamic imperative.

He is not very good at it.
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.

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Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Post by iffo »

Desperation of muslims again. Simple quran statement that anyone can make, and trying to look something big in it.

Guardman lets suppose it is God who does that, hold them in air. It still does not make Allah the god and Muhammad the prophet. Because no god will write a stupid book like quran, and backward/barbaric religion like Islam. Launching attacks on others lands and cutting their throats.



Guardman you feel any shame when you think that mushammad and his 4 caliphas attacked on other countries to spread the Islamic empire, killing millions of people. ? Was it right thing to do?
Do you have the ability to think, that actually should be the first question.

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Garudaman
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Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Post by Garudaman »

manfred wrote:Dear Garudaman,

if you are wondering how flight could have evolved in birds, well...
no manfred, I wondered if the birds could have evolved to fly or not, in case if the air does not have the lift force! :nono:

sum
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Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Post by sum »

Hello Garudaman

You obviously have not given this matter any thought at all.

Air does not have a lift force at all. Air is only inanimate matter that is less dense than land mass and so rests above the land mass. It is the muscles of the bird that provide the force, not the air. The air only provides the medium on which the bird`s muscles of flight work. If there was no air then birds would not have developed muscles of flight. What would be the point?

Switch your brain on, Garudaman, and think.

sum

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manfred
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Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Post by manfred »

no manfred, I wondered if the birds could have evolved to fly or not, in case if the air does not have the lift force!
Hi again,

I am not sure I understand what you say.... you are asking me if there would be any flying creatures if flight was physically impossible? What kind of question is that? It's like asking if we could have fish without water...

Perhaps you need to take a look at this evolution idea... It does NOT demand that there is any kind of deliberate planning in how creatures evolve. It simply talks about millions of small random changes, some turning out to be useful for survival. However, it also does not PRECLUDE any act of creation either.

Birds did not evolve "wings". Instead there were some random changes that allowed big jumps, gliding and eventually flying. They evolved something that by chance turned out to be useful as wings.

Most of the time scientists will argue that evolution is both blind and purposeless, and they will treat the creation issue as "unscientific".

However, not all do. It is also possible to reconcile evolution with a belief in God, at least to many people.

So, the idea that somehow it is self-evident that first God created the physical laws of flight and then flying creatures, following some sort of plan does not stand up well, not without a great deal of qualification.

However, to say that you believe in a planned creation, well that is entirely different.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

katlike
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Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Post by katlike »

What about birds that cannot fly? Does the koran address those birds and give a reason?
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. Blaise Pascal

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Garudaman
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Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Post by Garudaman »

katlike wrote:What about birds that cannot fly? Does the koran address those birds and give a reason?
from anatomy of similarity, it can be assumed, that once the land birds, is the fly birds :
http://bioweb.uwlax.edu/bio203/s2012/st ... tation.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/birdrespiration.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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pr126
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Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Post by pr126 »

Garudaman wrote:
katlike wrote:What about birds that cannot fly? Does the koran address those birds and give a reason?
from anatomy of similarity, it can be assumed, that once the land birds, is the fly birds :
http://bioweb.uwlax.edu/bio203/s2012/st ... tation.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/birdrespiration.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Quite so.

But how does this prove Islam or Allah being true? :???:
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.

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manfred
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Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Post by manfred »

from anatomy of similarity, it can be assumed, that once the land birds, is the fly birds
Sorry,
I am not sure if I understand that right... I hope I you don't mind me translate this back into Indonesian, and tell me which is the one you tried to say:

A:
dari anatomi kesamaan, dapat diasumsikan, bahwa burung darat sebelumnya juga burung yang bisa terbang.
form the similar anatomy, one can assume that before (in the past) the land birds were birds that could also fly.

or B:
dari anatomi kesamaan, dapat diasumsikan, bahwa burung darat suatu hari juga akan bisa terbang.
form the similar anatomy, one can assume that one day (in the future) the land birds will also be able to fly.

Your English is confusing here. Please don't be angry about asking me to explain.
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pr126
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Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Post by pr126 »

I think he is dangling a bunch of keys in front of our eyes: "Look, shiny!"

Fathom does the same thing with his algebraic sleight of hands. "Look 1+1=2, but how can you be sure?"

:wacko:
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.

katlike
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Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Post by katlike »

Garudaman wrote:
katlike wrote:What about birds that cannot fly? Does the koran address those birds and give a reason?
from anatomy of similarity, it can be assumed, that once the land birds, is the fly birds :
http://bioweb.uwlax.edu/bio203/s2012/st ... tation.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://people.eku.edu/ritchisong/birdrespiration.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What does that mean? from anatomy of similarity, once the land birds, is the fly birds. Please explain further. Thank you.
Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from a religious conviction. Blaise Pascal

Jimi
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Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Post by Jimi »

Wow that Video is cool. The Muslim response is a jump in logic. Thanks for the post
May the example of pbuh guild you to the truth.

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Garudaman
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Re: QS. 16:79 ; Birds Can Fly, Really Because Evolution?

Post by Garudaman »

manfred wrote:Sorry,
I am not sure if I understand that right... I hope I you don't mind me translate this back into Indonesian, and tell me which is the one you tried to say:

A:
dari anatomi kesamaan, dapat diasumsikan, bahwa burung darat sebelumnya juga burung yang bisa terbang.
form the similar anatomy, one can assume that before (in the past) the land birds were birds that could also fly.

or B:
dari anatomi kesamaan, dapat diasumsikan, bahwa burung darat suatu hari juga akan bisa terbang.
form the similar anatomy, one can assume that one day (in the future) the land birds will also be able to fly.

Your English is confusing here. Please don't be angry about asking me to explain.
katlike wrote:What does that mean? from anatomy of similarity, once the land birds, is the fly birds. Please explain further. Thank you.
dari kesamaan/kemiripan anatomi, dapat diasumsikan, bahwa burung darat, sebelumnya juga merupakan burung yang bisa terbang!

you know, land/ground birds is the evolution from fly bird! :ermm:

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