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Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:02 pm
by AhmedBahgat
Salam all

In today’s Bukhari Sunnah lesson, we will look at a hadith alleged by Bukhari which should render all Muslims who fight and kill each other, Kafiroon (Unbelievers)

http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Disp ... =118&doc=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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The above hadith by Bukhari is listed under a sub-chapter that he named: الإنصات للعلماء , i.e. Listening to the Ulamma (The Knowledgeable), which is under a chapter that he named: العلم , i.e. The Knowledge

The message of the above hadith is very simple, it is alleged that the prophet said in the last ceremony the following while the people were listening:

Do not return after me Kuffar (unbelievers), when some of you strike the neck of the others.

Now, I am not really sure if there is any sunnah in the above allegation, but let’s assume that there is, therefore it should simple be as follow:

Those Muslims who fight and kill each other, MUST BE KAFIROON, i.e. UNBELIEVERS

Well, it’s really strange that Bukhari included such allegation at least 150 years after so many Muslims fought and killed each other, including the following Muslims:

1- Ali ibn Abi Talib
2- Aysha
3- Aysha's two brothers-in-law Talha and Zubayr ibn al-Awwam
4- Abd Allah Ibn al-Zubayr
5- Muˁāwīya ibn ˁAbī Sufyān

And so many more

Therefore according to Bukhari, the above mentioned Muslims along with thousands of Muslims back then, and millions of Muslims now days, MUST BE KAFIROON, i.e. UNBELIEVERS, this is because they struck the neck of each other, i.e. they faught and killed each other, and not to my surprise, according to Bukhari, so many Muslims now days who are following path must be kafiroon.

Now, if Bukhari believes in his allegations of hadith, then he should have also believed that Aysha and Ali returned Kafirs after the prophet death.

Finally, what exactly the above allegation has to do with 'Knowledge" or "Listening to the Ulamaa"? Absoutely nothing

Salam

Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:14 pm
by sunshine
AB you have already lost half of your faith for your cult by rejecting Bukhari. Many other islamic forums' guardians dont even dare to go against Bukhari but you are brave enough i see. Anyways after completing your translation i hope you will loose the rest of the faith by discovering your own contradiction. :D :D :D

Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:20 pm
by AhmedBahgat
sunshine wrote:AB you have already lost half of your faith for your cult by rejecting Bukhari. Many other islamic forums' guardians dont even dare to go against Bukhari but you are brave enough i see. Anyways after completing your translation i hope you will loose the rest of the faith by discovering your own contradiction. :D :D :D

Dismissed in the filthiest rubbish bin

Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:27 pm
by debunker
Hello Bahgat,

May I ask you a question? Do you reject Hadith, or do you reject the authority of the Hadith Scholars?

Thanks.

Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:34 pm
by sunshine
AhmedBahgat wrote:
sunshine wrote:AB you have already lost half of your faith for your cult by rejecting Bukhari. Many other islamic forums' guardians dont even dare to go against Bukhari but you are brave enough i see. Anyways after completing your translation i hope you will loose the rest of the faith by discovering your own contradiction. :D

Dismissed in the filthiest rubbish bin
AFTER YOU

:D :D

Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:38 pm
by AhmedBahgat
debunker wrote:Hello Bahgat,

May I ask you a question? Do you reject Hadith, or do you reject the authority of the Hadith Scholars?

Thanks.
Hello

I reject most of the first and totally reject the second

For me, to athenticate any saying that is alleged by anyone, IT MUST COMPLY WITH THE QURAN, this is the only religious authority I am aware of and will be always aware of

Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:56 pm
by debunker
But how about Hadith that cannot be verified by the Quran?

For example, the details of the 5 daily prayers are not mentioned in the Quran, only in Hadith. So how would you know if this Hadiths telling us how to perform the 5 prayers are authentic or not?

My arguement is: the reason Muslims so desperately need to believe that scholars, like Bukhari, have finally solved the case of corruption of Hadith is that they cannot tolerate the idea that the vast majority of their rituals cannot be verified with Quran. Therefore, although they know Hadith is not a sacred text and was corrupted, they still need to believe that Scholars like Bukhari have fixed this serious problem in their religion.

What I'm trying to say is: don't be surprised if you find the majority of Muslims so attached to Hadith, because the reality of Hadith's corruption is a nightmare they're trying to suppress from their aware brains.

What about you? Don't you think that it's a real nightmare that the majority of Islamic rituals cannot be verified?

Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:58 pm
by sword_of_truth
If you are not sure if my argument is not sufficient, why not then tell me what sunnah that Muslims should learn from the bukhari hadith that I posted so far?

If you cannot, then my argument is sufficient
Sufficient enough, for our purposes. I think if I were still a muslim, I would have some cause to doubt Bukhari. What it's not sufficient for is toppling his authority to the extent that you desire. And of course, some people have rigid opinions that cannot be changed under any circumstances.

Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:23 pm
by AhmedBahgat
debunker wrote:But how about Hadith that cannot be verified by the Quran?

For example, the details of the 5 daily prayers are not mentioned in the Quran, only in Hadith. So how would you know if this Hadiths telling us how to perform the 5 prayers are authentic or not?
First of all, Salat is verified by Quran, for an obvious two reasons:

1- The Salat was commanded by Allah not by Mohammed
2- The salat is mentioned zillion times in the Quran

Now, not to say that any allegation taking about Salat must be accepted, rather, even if it is talkung about Salat, it must never contradict the Quran, for example the allegation of hadith that the salat went down from 50 to 5 a day, in a lengthy and boring arab/jew style bargaining, must be dismissed because the Quran told us two things:

1) Allah never put a burden on anyone but to his/her limit
2) Allah does not change His words, nor there will be a changer to it
debunker wrote:My arguement is: the reason Muslims so desperately need to believe that scholars, like Bukhari, have finally solved the case of corruption of Hadith is that they cannot tolerate the idea that the vast majority of their rituals cannot be verified with Quran. Therefore, although they know Hadith is not a sacred text and was corrupted, they still need to believe that Scholars like Bukhari have fixed this serious problem in their religion.
Read all Bukhari hadith that I posted in this thread and you should reach the conclusion that Bukhari and all his followers are damn confused and know nothing about the Quran, these people cannot and will not be an iswah hassnah for me, and I believe for any Muslim too
debunker wrote:What I'm trying to say is: don't be surprised if you find the majority of Muslims so attached to Hadith,
Am noit surprised at all, in fact that is something rooted in the human nature, see, the Muslims are not surprised that all the Christains are attached to the crap that Jesus is the son of god. hahahaha, all must be a bunch of confused humans who submitted to Satan and in their journey to hell
debunker wrote: because the reality of Hadith's corruption is a nightmare they're trying to suppress from their aware brains.
Of course, exactly like the reality of the nightmere when you tell the christians that jesus cannot be the son of God, even if you use the Bible against them, they still are stubborn kafirs bound to hell, their Most fellow Muslims, are not far behind, they are stubborn Mushriks bound to hell
debunker wrote: What about you? Don't you think that it's a real nightmare that the majority of Islamic rituals cannot be verified?
Not at all, because, we may only take how the prophet prayed, or did hajj, as an example, we are not bound to do it exactly like him, and I can prove that using their pown hadith, but when I have time

Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:42 pm
by debunker
Not at all, because, we may only take how the prophet prayed, or did hajj, as an example, we are not bound to do it exactly like him, and I can prove that using their pown hadith, but when I have time
By prayers rituals I meant the movements and the words to be said, etc. These cannot be verified using the sacred text for Muslims (Quran). Therefore it's a nightmare for them to perform these rituals while doubting that they're doing the wrong thing. So instead, they choose to forget about questioning Hadith and pretend that their scholars solved the problem.

It would be very interesting to see how you could prove that we are not bound to pray exactly like him... I'll be impatiently waiting for your answer.

Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:57 pm
by AhmedBahgat
Not at all, because, we may only take how the prophet prayed, or did hajj, as an example, we are not bound to do it exactly like him, and I can prove that using their pown hadith, but when I have time
debunker wrote:By prayers rituals I meant the movements and the words to be said, etc. These cannot be verified using the sacred text for Muslims (Quran). Therefore it's a nightmare for them to perform these rituals while doubting that they're doing the wrong thing. So instead, they choose to forget about questioning Hadith and pretend that their scholars solved the problem.
Again, what is alleged to how the prophet did and said while praying, DOES NOT CONTRADICT the Quran, as well, all the proiphets before Mohammed were praying, therefore there is no one way of praying, however to make it easy, we chose to take the prayer of the prophet as an example, at the end of the day, the Quran told us that remembering Allah is greater than praying.
debunker wrote: It would be very interesting to see how you could prove that we are not bound to pray exactly like him... I'll be impatiently waiting for your answer.
Well, I will use a Bukhari hadith regarding the ritual of Hajj, in such hadith a guy kept saying to the prophet that he did such and such differnetly and in different order (so many times), the the prophet kept telling him that it was ok (so many times), therefore there is a self judgement accoridng to the circumstances risen, i.e. flexability

I will walk you through such hadith when I have time, it is in my plan

Also, here is another interesting task for you, why do not you ask any of those hadith worshippers, to show us a single hadith that teaches us how to pray, in a straightforward manner? Till now, no muslim of a hadith worshipper managed to bring me such hadith, a simpple ask i have to say

Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 12:30 am
by debunker
So I understand that your measure for accepting Hadith, is how reasonable it sounds given your knowledge of the Quran. That sounds good. But what I'm saying is: there's no way for you to judge whether "rituals" reported in Hadith sound reasonable or not, using the Quranic background. Your method, therefore, will cast an everlasting doubt on the validity of rituals (something Muslims cannot tolerate).

And that's why, scholars like Bukhari, ignored your measure, because it cannot help vindicate the rituals (a major part of Islam). So, they chose to use "hearsay evidence" as the only way to authenticate Hadith (which is of course highly flawed, but if you accept hearsay as a good evidence then you're defending the the rituals, which is something Muslims sorely need).

Of course, my position is that Hadith should be authenticated using both methods, and so far no scholar did this before.

Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:09 am
by AhmedBahgat
debunker wrote:So I understand that your measure for accepting Hadith, is how reasonable it sounds given your knowledge of the Quran. That sounds good. But what I'm saying is: there's no way for you to judge whether "rituals" reported in Hadith sound reasonable or not, using the Quranic background. Your method, therefore, will cast an everlasting doubt on the validity of rituals (something Muslims cannot tolerate).

And that's why, scholars like Bukhari, ignored your measure, because it cannot help vindicate the rituals (a major part of Islam). So, they chose to use "hearsay evidence" as the only way to authenticate Hadith (which is of course highly flawed, but if you accept hearsay as a good evidence then you're defending the the rituals, which is something Muslims sorely need).

Of course, my position is that Hadith should be authenticated using both methods, and so far no scholar did this before.
Why there is no way?

for example, I reject kissing the stone in the ritual of Hajj, simply, it is not in the Quran, as well nor a cammand from Mohammed, rather an act by some idol worshippers who idolise Mohammed in everything he did, even how he pissed.

Scholars like Bukhari, do not even deserve to be called scholars, they only proved with their own hands, how dumb, stupid and confused all of them are

Well, the whole matter of belief is hearsay, therefore, there is a part of hearsay that I sill accept, however at the end of the day, anything that I accept cannot contradict the Quran the slightest one way or another.

And yes, I defend the Islamic rituals as I inherited it, however only after I apply the common sense to it, any slight confusion, or anything that may lead to confusion, has to be dismissed on the fly, this is the most safest way which in its heart, is islamic.

Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:02 am
by debunker
Why there is no way?

for example, I reject kissing the stone in the ritual of Hajj, simply, it is not in the Quran...

... And yes, I defend the Islamic rituals as I inherited it, however only after I apply the common sense to it....
Ok, could you tell me how can you use the Quran to verify that the number of daily prayers is 5? Or why it makes sense that Fajr prayer is only 2 Rakas while Maghrib is 3 and all the others are 4 Rakas?

You cannot apply common sense (as defined by your faith in the Quran) to rituals, because worship rituals don't have to make any sense. I accept them as they are... simply because there's no way to verify them (and I have no problem with admitting that).

You can apply your faith in the Quran to verify all Hadiths except those related to rituals.

Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:06 am
by AhmedBahgat
debunker wrote:
Why there is no way?

for example, I reject kissing the stone in the ritual of Hajj, simply, it is not in the Quran...

... And yes, I defend the Islamic rituals as I inherited it, however only after I apply the common sense to it....
Ok, could you tell me how can you use the Quran to verify that the number of daily prayers is 5? Or why it makes sense that Fajr prayer is only 2 Rakas while Maghrib is 3 and all the others are 4 Rakas?

You cannot apply common sense (as defined by your faith in the Quran) to rituals, because worship rituals don't have to make any sense. I accept them as they are... simply because there's no way to verify them (and I have no problem with admitting that).

You can apply your faith in the Quran to verify all Hadiths except those related to rituals.

stop wasting my time

again, it does not matter how many times to pray a day, the more the better, so 5 times a day is ok and does not contradict the Quran

you are also dismissed

Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:10 am
by debunker
you are also dismissed
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL! I really liked this last comment...

Although I'm dismissed, i still have to ask this question: how about praying 3 times a day? Would that be OK?

Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:16 am
by AhmedBahgat
debunker wrote:
you are also dismissed
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL! I really liked this last comment...

Although I'm dismissed, i still have to ask this question: how about praying 3 times a day? Would that be OK?
well, some muslims say ok, the free-minders, however I chose to follow what I inherited from the prophet, which is 5 times a day as a min distributed all over the 24 hours, the prophet however used to pray far more than 5 times a day, as well many muslims do the same

the rule of thumb is really simple, the more Muslims pray a day, the better it will be for them

now to make the 5 a day, 3 a day, clearly contradicts the rule of thumb

Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:18 am
by debunker
Ok, how about the Maghrib prayer? Can I pray 7 Rakas for Maghrib instead of 3?

Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:25 am
by AhmedBahgat
debunker wrote:Ok, how about the Maghrib prayer? Can I pray 7 Rakas for Maghrib instead of 3?
of course you can, ironically the man made books of hadith do not say that you can't

the more we pray the better, makes sense, i guess

now Imagine the following:

Someone who is been judged by Allah on the JD

So do you think Allah may punish him for praying more to Him, than what was commonly known between the people?

and how about those who do Hajj, more than the required one time?

Re: Exposing a hadith worshipper (Neveen Salah Labib) Facebook

Posted: Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:31 am
by AhmedBahgat
Mister debunker, the hadith worshipper

why don't you reply to your crap of bukhari sunnah that I posted on this thread instead of acting like a coward?

do you have anything to say for the so many so called sunnah of bukhari been posted in here?

if you don't, then stop wasting my time with your tom and jerry questions, as I have hundreds and hundreds of such crap called sahih bukhari to expose to all, I bet you that you did not read scuh crap of a book by bukhari, or did ya?