some more science from the quran

[manfred]

It is Allah Who sends the Winds, and they raise the Clouds: then does He spread them in the sky as He wills, and break them into fragments, until thou seest rain-drops issue from the midst thereof: then when He has made them reach such of his servants as He wills behold, they do rejoice!-

quran 30:48

It is Allah Who sends the Winds

He did?

they raise the Clouds

The winds raise the clouds?

then does He spread them in the sky as He wills, and break them into fragments, until thou seest rain-drops

Allah likes cloud billiard, I see... Rain is caused by breaking up clouds? Rain is chopped up clouds?

He has made them reach such of his servants as He wills behold, they do rejoice!-

His servants, wherever they are, rejoice about rain, always? Even in Bangladesh, when sitting on the roof, waiting for the water to go down?

[Eagle]

The human who you alleged wrote the verse, did it as he saw water falling down from between 2 chopped up cloud pieces? He never heard of deadly rain falls, let alone what happenned to the people of Nuh 54:11-12?

The root TH-Wa-Ra carries the meaning of raising in the sense of stirring. The winds stir/tutheer, move and gather the cloud in the sky then rain falls from within it 2:22,24:43,35:9 when the drops forming it become heavy enough to break up from their state of suspension in the air as alluded to in 30:48.

While we're at it, explain where is that water tap in the air that YHWH opens and closes as he wills 1Kings8:35,2Chronicles7:13.

Good luck in your Quran studies

[Centaur]

Wherever there is an issue, the Koranic word in question has got 10 different meanings otherwise one, but all the scholars/translators got it wrong.I think Muslims lie here on the grounds that no one else on this forum is an Arabic expert and so they cannot refute it.

raising in the sense of stirring

[Fernando]

Wherever there is an issue, the Koranic word in question has got 10 different meanings otherwise one, but all the scholars/translators got it wrong.

Digging up roots again. Two can play at that game:
Islam - from slm - which also gives Slime
Arab - from rb - which also gives Robber
Mecca - from mc - which also gives Muck
Rasul - from rsl - which also gives Rissole (pork savoury)
That my derived words are English simply reflects the view of some Muslims that all languages are derived from Arabic. Any more contributions to Arabic etymology, folks?

[Centaur]

Wherever there is an issue, the Koranic word in question has got 10 different meanings otherwise one, but all the scholars/translators got it wrong.I think Muslims lie here on the grounds that no one else on this forum is an Arabic expert and so they cannot refute it.

raising in the sense of stirring

Its all a game of deception, for example Look at this verse and its translatioon overtime
Sura 79:30 Wal'arda ba'da dhalika dahaha
And the earth, moreover, hath He extended (to a wide expanse); (Yusuf Ali)
And after that He spread the earth, (Pickthall)
And the earth, He expanded it after that. (Shakir)

But some years ago, a new dawah translation was made which reads
"He made the earth egg-shaped"
The word dahaha normally means vast expense, which actually go with other verses of koran which describes a fat earth

[manfred]

The human who you alleged wrote the verse, did it as he saw water falling down from between 2 chopped up cloud pieces? He never heard of deadly rain falls, let alone what happenned to the people of Nuh 54:11-12?

The root TH-Wa-Ra carries the meaning of raising in the sense of stirring. The winds stir/tutheer, move and gather the cloud in the sky then rain falls from within it 2:22,24:43,35:9 when the drops forming it become heavy enough to break up from their state of suspension in the air as alluded to in 30:48.

While we're at it, explain where is that water tap in the air that YHWH opens and closes as he wills 1Kings8:35,2Chronicles7:13.

Good luck in your Quran studies

The human who you alleged wrote the verse, did it as he saw water falling down from between 2 chopped up cloud pieces? He never heard of deadly rain falls, let alone what happenned to the people of Nuh 54:11-12?

The text says what is says we can't ask Mohammed, if he wrote it, or any later redactor, should he be responsible, because e they are dead.

Now. let's have a look at your verses:

So We opened the gates of heaven, with water pouring forth.And We caused the earth to gush forth with springs, so the waters met (and rose) to the extent decreed 54:11-12

So the heaven is solid, holding back water above it? What happened to clouds? Not needed?

Who has made the earth your couch, and the heavens your canopy; and sent down rain from the heavens; and brought forth therewith Fruits for your sustenance; then set not up rivals unto Allah when ye know (the truth). 2:22

So the earth is flat like a couch. And the heavens a canopy, a sort of solid roof. Allah send rain by opening and closing some kind of heavenly sluice gates.

Seest thou not that Allah makes the clouds move gently, then joins them together, then makes them into a heap? - then wilt thou see rain issue forth from their midst. And He sends down from the sky mountain masses (of clouds) wherein is hail: He strikes therewith whom He pleases and He turns it away from whom He pleases, the vivid flash of His lightning well-nigh blinds the sight 24:43.

So Allah, moves the clouds, the wind hold them up? Allah makes a heap of clouds? The rain issues from the midst of the clouds, as if they are a container? Why does it not start to rain when a plane flies through a cloud, breaking the container? Some cloud carry around hail instead of rain? And of course, Allah strikes whoever takes his fancy?

It is Allah Who sends forth the Winds, so that they raise up the Clouds, and We drive them to a land that is dead, and revive the earth therewith after its death: even so (will be) the Resurrection!35:9

So Allah sends the winds, raise up the clouds (again?)? And Allah purposefully directs the rain? Why does he send so little to the best of people in Saudi Arabia?

Your Quran verses have not answered anything, I am afraid, if anything they made it worse... they present a range of further problems, just further 7th century superstitions, one contradicting the next.

Then you try the old tu quoque approach quoting a bit of biblical text. Does the bible explain further what all these verses say? No? Then why bring it up?

[Eagle]

You claim the Quran represents in places the superstituous views of a 7th century author. This means the author's alleged point of view is a premise for your attempted textual criticism and yet you dismiss this same premise when it doesnt suite you.

Now lets have a look at your misunderstanding of the verses concerned:

So the heaven is solid, holding back water above it? What happened to clouds? Not needed?

So the heaven is solid and needs opening up by YHWH for rain to fall 1Kings8:35,2Chronicles7:13? What happenned to 24:43,35:9 saying clouds are needed? What light do these 2 verses shed on the obvious imagery in 54:11-12?

So the earth is flat like a couch. And the heavens a canopy, a sort of solid roof.

Flat like a couch or comfortable like a couch in order to allow the development of life as is obvious from the context? And a canopy is always a solid entity? No? If not, why consider the alleged superstisious views of a 7th century writer as the default interpretation of a verse in this case but not in other cases?

So Allah, moves the clouds, the wind hold them up? Allah makes a heap of clouds?

Of course Allah moves and assembles the clouds. Isnt he ultimately the creator and constant maintainer of the laws of nature allowing these phenomenons to exist? Are you sure the verses say what you say about the wind in relation to clouds?

The rain issues from the midst of the clouds, as if they are a container?

Very appropriate analogy

Why does it not start to rain when a plane flies through a cloud, breaking the container?

If it manages to create air currents causing a few water dropplets to merge and become heavy enough to break from their state of suspension, you might have a few rain drops actually. Good sense for imagery again

Some cloud carry around hail instead of rain?

Are you sure this is what it says? You might want to take another look, possibly compare a few translations.

So Allah sends the winds, raise up the clouds (again?)?

Didnt you look up a lexicon on the root of the word tutheer before presenting your misunderstanding (again?)?

And Allah purposefully directs the rain?

Isnt YHWH the creator and maintainer of the laws of nature allowing these phenomenons to exist meaning he ultimately purposefully makes them happen?

Why does he send so little to the best of people in Saudi Arabia?

What are the Quranic conditions for the attribution of that title on a people? What does Allah say in the Quran about his purpose for either providing or witholding His wordly favors? Is there a relation between these 2 actions and God's pleasure or displeasure of a person/people?

Does the bible explain further what all these verses say?

It doesnt, but the Quranic verses provided do

Then why bring it up?

To demonstrate what intellectual dishonesty means?

[manfred]

To demonstrate what intellectual dishonesty means?

Is it dishonest to take the Islamic claim that the Qur'an is the word of god, exactly and undiluted, and then examine if such a claim makes sense?

I have never made any such claim about biblical texts. In fact I have no problems with biblical texts expressing the world views of its day. You are defending the idea that the Qur'an contains scientific insight not known at the the time of Mohammed. I never made any such claim about the bible, nor would I.

So it is intellectually dishonest to distract from a problem by introducing an irrelevant and false comparison, and it fools nobody.

Flat like a couch or comfortable like a couch in order to allow the development of life as is obvious from the context?

Flat like a couch. You know all the other verses. I don't know about your couch, but I don't grow plants or mushrooms on it, I watch TV on it or sometimes have a sleep there.

See also:

(18:47)

And (remember) the Day We shall cause the mountains to pass away (like clouds of dust), and you will see the earth as a levelled plain, and we shall gather them all together so as to leave not one of them behind.

(20:53)

Who has made earth for you like a bed (spread out); and has opened roads (ways and paths etc.) for you therein; and has sent down water (rain) from the sky. And We have brought forth with it various kinds of vegetation.

(43:10)

Who has made for you the earth like a bed, and has made for you roads therein, in order that you may find your way.

(43:38)

Till, when (such a one) comes to Us, he says [to his Qarîn (Satan / devil companion)] "Would that between me and you were the distance of the two easts (or the east and west)" a worst (type of) companion (indeed)!

(78:6)

Have We not made the earth as a bed,

(79:30)

And after that He spread the earth;

(27:61)

Is not He (better than your gods) Who has made the earth as a fixed abode, and has placed rivers in its midst, and has placed firm mountains therein, and has set a barrier between the two seas (of salt and sweet water).Is there any ilâh (god) with Allâh? Nay, but most of them know not.

(18:86)

Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allâh) said (by inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness."

(18:90)

Until, when he came to the rising place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We (Allâh) had provided no shelter against the sun.

(36:38)

And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.

(36:40)

It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit.

So, to summarize...:

So far, we have clouds, being held up by wind, and moved by Allah purposefully, independently of wind. Clouds are like buckets, and sometimes carry water or hailstones, and Allah breaks and chops them up to make it rain, but he also sometimes piles them up to make bigger buckets. In addition Allah can also make it rain with some sluice gate the the solid firmament, the sky, as above this firmament there is water. And of course, the earth is flat.

Still science in the Qur'an? Maybe we are looking in the wrong place?

It is a bit rich, eagle, to accuse people of intellectual dishonesty, when in fact you seem to spend a great deal of your intelligence to deceive yourself about the Qur'an. It is more honest to take the text as it is, as the Qur'an suggests, no matter where it leads you. You seem to prefer to change the Qur'an to make it say what you would like to hear rather than accept it as it is.


I think this alone is sufficient prof, even for you, dear eagle, that the Qur'an has had human authors. What we have left to examine if there are some passages of the Qur'an that could possibly show signs of inspiration by God.

Well I can't find evidence of that either, for this reason: Virtually all the text is written for a purpose, and that is to support Mohammed in his claim to power or to excuse his behaviour. The text reflects and addresses specific needs of Mohammed at different times of his dubious career, and contains no spiritual insight that was not expressed previously by others at all. Not one. The Qur'an guides and leads to conformity and to observance, to subservience and to uncritical acceptance, it does not lead people to God. It is designed to turn people to good subjects and soldiers for Mohammed, no more.

My suggestion to you, my friend, is that you deserve a better book that that. Have a look around, and read some real religious texts, you will be amazed at the difference. Try Thomas Merton, you might like that. You don't have to be of any particular religion to get something out of his books.

[Fernando]

You claim the Quran represents in places the superstituous views of a 7th century author.

Even Muslims agree on that. They think it was written by Allah, who was clearly superstitious - unless he didn't believe in himself!

[Fernando]

Flat like a couch. You know all the other verses. I don't know about your couch, but I don't grow plants or mushrooms on it, I watch TV on it or sometimes have a sleep there.

Well, we know what Mo did on his couch! Unfortunately his hangers-on are trying to do the same to the whole world.

[Eagle]

Is it dishonest to take the Islamic claim that the Qur'an is the word of god, exactly and undiluted, and then examine if such a claim makes sense?

Werent you explained what your intelectual dishonesty consisted in?

You are defending the idea that the Qur'an contains scientific insight not known at the the time of Mohammed

Are you sure? Does the correction of your misinterpretation of certain verses in light of modern science constitute an argument in favor of scientific statements in the Quran?

So it is intellectually dishonest to distract from a problem by introducing an irrelevant and false comparison

How was there any distraction when Quranic verses were provided to clear a misunderstanding you refer to as a "problem"?

Flat like a couch

Do you know how analogies and metaphors work in literature? How does the flat shape of the couch fit into a context meant at creating gratitude towards the One who made this earth a receptacle for life, as opposed to the comfortable nature of the couch?

You know all the other verses. I don't know about your couch, but I don't grow plants or mushrooms on it, I watch TV on it or sometimes have a sleep there.

Thats bad for your overall sleeping routine, better go sleep in your bedroom

See also:

(18:47)

And (remember) the Day We shall cause the mountains to pass away (like clouds of dust), and you will see the earth as a levelled plain, and we shall gather them all together so as to leave not one of them behind.

(20:53)

Who has made earth for you like a bed (spread out); and has opened roads (ways and paths etc.) for you therein; and has sent down water (rain) from the sky. And We have brought forth with it various kinds of vegetation.

(43:10)

Who has made for you the earth like a bed, and has made for you roads therein, in order that you may find your way.

(43:38)

Till, when (such a one) comes to Us, he says [to his Qarîn (Satan / devil companion)] "Would that between me and you were the distance of the two easts (or the east and west)" a worst (type of) companion (indeed)!

(78:6)

Have We not made the earth as a bed,

(79:30)

And after that He spread the earth;

(27:61)

Is not He (better than your gods) Who has made the earth as a fixed abode, and has placed rivers in its midst, and has placed firm mountains therein, and has set a barrier between the two seas (of salt and sweet water).Is there any ilâh (god) with Allâh? Nay, but most of them know not.

(18:86)

Until, when he reached the setting place of the sun, he found it setting in a spring of black muddy (or hot) water. And he found near it a people. We (Allâh) said (by inspiration): "O Dhul-Qarnain! Either you punish them, or treat them with kindness."

(18:90)

Until, when he came to the rising place of the sun, he found it rising on a people for whom We (Allâh) had provided no shelter against the sun.

(36:38)

And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term (appointed). That is the Decree of the All-Mighty, the All-Knowing.

(36:40)

It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor does the night outstrip the day. They all float, each in an orbit.

18:47 speaks of the resurrection when the landscape will be flattenned and levelled, not the planet. 20:53,43:10,78:6 draw a parallel between the comfortable nature of the couch/bed and how the earth has been made hospitable to allow life, nothing about a flat earth. How does the reference to the mashriqayn/maghribayn or literally the 2 places of sunrise/the 2 places of sunset referring to the extreme points of sunrise and sunset in summer and in winter spoken of in 43:38 allude to a flat earth considering verses such as 37:5,70:40 speaking of the mashaariq/places of sunrise (plural), and maghaarib/places of sunset (plural), showing how the Quran clearly points to these places being ephemeral places, certainly not fixed. As regards to spreading the earth 79:30 it has nothing to do with flattening it, sheets can be spread over non-flat objects, including a ball. There is no "fixed" in 27:61 but there is "qarar" meaning a resting place again in reference to its comfortable nature and how it has been made hospitable for life. Does 36:38 tells you the sun's course is around the earth? Of course that the sun along with all cosmic bodies follow a certain path in space, moving on to their appointed term/ajalin musamma 13:2,31:29,35:13,39:5 in referrence to the end of all things on the Day of Resurrection. See 6:2,40:67 for further explanation on what the phrase Ajalin musamma means. How does 36:40 point to a flat earth or that sun and moon orbit the earth? You can use the forum search function for the 2 verses about Dhulqarnayn 18:86,90 where one of your forum friends was properly educated on the matter and if you dont find the discussion i'll be happy to paste it again for you.

So far, we have clouds, being held up by wind

Are you sure? Can you quote the verse?

and moved by Allah purposefully, independently of wind

What happenned to the word tutheer when speaking of the wind's action on the cloud, or the fact that God is the ultimate cause of the natural phenomenons?

Clouds are like buckets

Good analogy again

and sometimes carry water

Always

or hailstones

You were told to read 24:43 closer. Did you? Doesnt talk about hail carried by clouds, rather that there descends from the sky mountain like shapes containing hail. The imagery is very appropriate, have you seen what certain hailstorms look like?

and Allah breaks and chops them up to make it rain

What happenned to the fact a rain drop breaks its state of suspension in the air as it becomes heavy enough?

but he also sometimes piles them up to make bigger buckets.

Good analogy once more

In addition Allah can also make it rain with some sluice gate the the solid firmament, the sky, as above this firmament there is water

Above or from within the clouds in the sky as already referenced in the Quran? So the Quran's alleged human author saw rain falling on a day without clouds?

And of course, the earth is flat

Can you quote the verse

Still science in the Qur'an? Maybe we are looking in the wrong place?

Sure you are, there is no such thing

It is a bit rich, eagle, to accuse people of intellectual dishonesty, when in fact you seem to spend a great deal of your intelligence to deceive yourself about the Qur'an.

The clearing of your misunderstanding due to a combination of ignorance in Arabic, out of context quotations, preconceived notions and hatred means that one is deceiving oneself about the Quran?

It is more honest to take the text as it is, as the Qur'an suggests, no matter where it leads you

Sure

You seem to prefer to change the Qur'an to make it say what you would like to hear rather than accept is as it is.

I would tell you the same

Virtually all the text is written for a purpose, and that is to support Mohammed in his claim to power or to excuse his behaviour

Quote the verses you believe are used to "excuse" alleged misbehaviors

and contains no spiritual insight that was not expressed previously by others at all. Not one.

Like Jesus who did not bring any new principle that wasnt already stated centuries prior in the Tanakh? And how is the absence of new moral or spiritual insights constitue an argument for the human origin of the Quran when the text itself tells you it comes from the same who inspired the previous scriptures and prophets you claim it borrows its spiritual insights from?

The Qur'an guides and leads to conformity and to observance, to subservience and to uncritical acceptance, it does not lead people to God.

It leads people to God through reason, appealing to their sense of gratitude by pointing them to the innumerable signs of His presence in one's daily life

it is designed to turn people to good subjects and soldiers for Mohammed, no more

Can you point what constitutes one's subjection as a soldier to Muhammad in one's daily religious rites?

My suggestion to you, my friend, is that you deserve a better book that that. Have a look around, and read some read religious texts, you will be amazed at the difference.

I did and was truly amazed. The Quran stands on a league of its own

Try Thomas Merton, you might like that. You don't have to be of any particular religion to get something out of his books.

Had a few glimpses already and to no surprise coming from a catholic, his spiritual insights agree at 90% with those presented in the Quran

[manfred]

I gave you all the verses in the post, so don't ask for them again. That is also a well-known strategy Muslims like to deploy; making the other person run around after them, until they get bored and leave, and then claim "victory".

Instead, you agreed that "clouds are like buckets" is a good analogy for how the Qur'an sees clouds. They can be "combined" or "emptied", by breaking them up. Hence the bucket analogy.So we both agree that the Qur'an describes cloud to us rather like buckets.

Well, real clouds are not like that, are they?

They are not a container of water, they are ALL water, evaporated water from the sea.They don't carry water, they ARE the water. They are held up by virtue of their specific density, not by wind. They are moved by wind, not by Allah. Rain is caused by tiny dust particles with give the water vapour something to attach to, and thus forming droplets, as these get bigger, the weight to volume ratio increases, density changes, until the droplets are too heavy to stay aloft and fall down as rain.

So, you have agreed that there is a scientific inaccuracy in the Qur'an. No doubt you will next try a spin to get out of that. Arabic language, always the first try, or some attempt at allegory. Too late. You already agreed.

[Eagle]

I gave you all the verses in the post, so don't ask for them again.

You gave verses you alleged said something they dont. So where are those speaking of a flat earth?

Instead, you agreed that "clouds are like buckets"

Of course, "like" buckets. Still dont know how analogies work?

They can be "combined" or "emptied", by breaking them up

Are you sure the underlined part came in the discussion in relation to what preceded? Seems to me you're climbing up the wrong tree again

So we both agree that the Qur'an describes cloud to us rather like buckets.

No we agree to your own analogy, and an analogy is never meant to be 100% accurate. The Quran doesnt say clouds contain anything. It says water comes from their midst

Well, real clouds are not like that, are they?

It doesnt matter as far as your own analogy, since once more an analogy is meant at conveying an approximate, not 100% accurate idea

They are not a container of water, they are ALL water, evaporated water from the sea.They don't carry water, they ARE the water.

Sure

They are held up by virtue of their specific density, not by wind.

Of course, does the Quran disagree with the above? If yes, can you quote the alleged verse?

They are moved by wind

Right, and who maintains the laws of nature causing these phenomenons making him ultimately responsible for them?

Rain is caused by tiny dust particles with give the water vapour something to attach to, and thus forming droplets, as these get bigger, the weight to volume ratio increases, density changes, until the droplets are too heavy to stay aloft and fall down as rain.

Sure, does the Quran disagree with the above? If yes, can you quote the alleged verse?

So, you have agreed that there is a scientific inaccuracy in the Qur'an

Rather, i have agreed that you have been misinterpreting certain verses in light of modern science while the 2 do not contradict eachother in any way

[Centaur]

No we agree to your own analogy, and an analogy is never meant to be 100% accurate. The Quran doesnt say clouds contain anything. It says water comes from their midst

Well an analogy should be similar in principle , otherwise its not an analogy, its not a case of approximation or accuracy

[manfred]

Well, as we both know, no Muslim will ever concede an error in the Qur'an, however many there are and however glaring.


That is because you will START looking at it ONLY AFTER you have convinced yourself there aren't any, which is very obviously false.

But because you cannot change or investigate your starting position, any error is always a misinterpretation, a wrong translation or whatever. The possibility that is simply is what it is never even considered. So there is little point showing it to you.

Still just have a look, forget where it is from, read what is says.

It is Allah Who sends the Winds, and they raise the Clouds: then does He spread them in the sky as He wills, and break them into fragments, until thou seest rain-drops issue from the midst thereof: then when He has made them reach such of his servants as He wills behold, they do rejoice!-

Qur'an 30:48

The winds do not raise the clouds. You laughably corrected the Qur'an by changing the words. The text says what it says.
The rain is not "inside" the clouds, and it does not issue from the "midst" of the clouds. Nor is rain caused by breaking up clouds.

All that should be obvious to the average eight year old, so it should pose no problem to you at all. But is does. Why? Because of the premise that what may not be that cannot be.

The Quran's earth is flat. Just READ the verses. Asking me to post them over and over makes no difference. That fact is also abundantly clear. The earth was flat for all Muslims until they learned from kafir scientists that that is wrong. The reaction was not to re-evaluate the divine origin of the Qur'an, but to twist the words of the Qur'an until the fit the new understanding.

For a seventh century text, all these things are perfectly fine and fit in well. An a divinely written or even inspired text the Qur'an is a non-starter.

Ironically, because of the dogma of the origin of the Qur'an it is impossible for a Muslim to ever really understand it. What cannot be examined cannot be understood.

[pr126]

But to concede that there is an error in the Quran would mean that Allah has made a mistake.
That simply cannot be. It is an impossibility.

The Muslim hits an impenetrable barrier that he cannot pass.

[Eagle]

The winds do not raise the clouds. You laughably corrected the Qur'an by changing the words.

Corrected the Quran or a translation of the Quran? Here are 2 links for you. One is a list of translations with many telling you what you've been educated about in this thread on the word tutheer, and the other link is to Lane's lexicon. Keep laughing while reading them both.

http://www.islamawakened.com//Quran/30/48/default.htm
http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/V ... 000401.pdf

The rain is not "inside" the clouds

Sure, but it issues from inside it as the Quran says

and it does not issue from the "midst" of the clouds

Are you sure of the above? Seems like you're embarking into another dead end. The arabic says "min khilal" meaning from within (see other translations for comparison), not necessarly from the middle as you want.

Nor is rain caused by breaking up clouds

It says the clouds are made into fragments/kisafan so that we see rain coming from the cloud (not from between 2 chopped up pieces of clouds). Clouds are water drops so technically rain drops are cloud fragments falling from the cloud itself. Nothing wrong or scientifically inacurate in this statement

The Quran's earth is flat. Just READ the verses. Asking me to post them over and over makes no difference

You're not told to post the verses again but rather to answer the clearing of your misinterpretation of these verses or if you cannot, present other verses that support your theory

[manfred]

at PR:
Well, either Allah made a mistake, or Allah does not exist or the Qur'an is not what it claims to be. Any of those would be a fair conclusion on that one verse alone. The most obvious immediate one would be the third one, the Qur'an is not not what it says it is. When that has sunk in, then at least the process of understanding it can start. Maybe that process leads to the abandonment of a belief in God, maybe not. At least at the end there is a degree of honesty, and a refusal to base a belief on a proven lie.

Eagle will have no trouble agreeing that babies are not brought by storks.

However, if there was a verse in the Qur'an saying "Babies are brought by storks", he would 100% support that idea, and provide 1000 reasons that this is so, one more ludicrous than the last. If that fails, he would say that it is a mistranslation. That failing, he would claim allegory. Then, claim the bible says it too is and old favourite, as if that would actually change the Qur'an. Finally, call the other person stupid, in the hope that insults will make him go away,or make them jump through hoops in the hope they get fed up and leave.

Essentially any Muslim says the Qur'an is the word of Allah, but I decide what Allah says. Eagle, sadly is no exception. Word games with the the allegedly divine word, changing, twisting, adjusting... quite mad really.

I am sure eagly is quite a nice guy, but does have a mental block when it comes to look at the Qur'an, a block that will only crumble with the abandonment of Islam. That mindset is something quite unique to Muslims, only extreme evangelist fundamentalist Christians come close, and a very tiny number of ultra-orthodox Jews.

We have seen an example recently with the backbone/rib issue and Ghaith.

I am starting to think it is pointless showing a Muslim things, as they simply don't look, and automatically assume malice in anyone who is a non-Muslim, particularly one who dared to question Islam. The idea that some people may actually try to help them never enters their head.

[manfred]

dear eagle,
we are are at the call the guy stupid stage already? I suppose you don't remember that I read Arabic?

It says the clouds are made into fragments/kisafan so that we see rain coming from the cloud (not from between 2 chopped up pieces of clouds). Clouds are water drops so technically rain drops are cloud fragments falling from the cloud itself. Nothing wrong or scientifically inacurate in this statement

... except you are changing the Qur'an again.

It is Allah Who sends the Winds, and they raise the Clouds: then does He spread them in the sky as He wills, and break them into fragments, until thou seest rain-drops issue from the midst thereof: then when He has made them reach such of his servants as He wills behold, they do rejoice!-

Allah breaks the clouds into fragments until you see the rain coming out. A kind of divine smash the bottle. Well if that is scientific for you....

Also rain normally develops on the OUTER regions of the cloud, as the dust particles needed for the formation of droplet get caught before the reach the middle of a cloud. So the divine smash the bottle is wrong on that count too.

As to "clearing up my misinterpretation", I simply shown you the verses that are very obviously show that the quranic earth was flat. There was no misinterpretation, only your excuses, all them were dealt with many times on this forum. If you want to talk about that, again, OK, but not here, Let's keep it simple. Clouds and rain.

[Eagle]

... except you are changing the Qur'an again.

The Quran or your misconception of what it says?

It is Allah Who sends the Winds, and they raise the Clouds: then does He spread them in the sky as He wills, and break them into fragments, until thou seest rain-drops issue from the midst thereof: then when He has made them reach such of his servants as He wills behold, they do rejoice!-

Allah breaks the clouds into fragments until you see the rain coming out. A kind of divine smash the bottle. Well if that is scientific for you....

There is no "break" there is yajaalahu/makes it kisafan/fragments. Rain drops are nothing but cloud fragments emanating from within the cloud itself, so nothing wrong with that statement, once more.

Also rain normally develops on the OUTER regions of the cloud, as the dust particles needed for the formation of droplet get caught before the reach the middle of a cloud. So the divine smash the bottle is wrong on that count too.

Sure your cooked up analogy is wrong again, in relation to what the verse says since there is no breaking involved. However going back to what the Quran actually says not what you want it to say, can you show where does the statement "rain coming from inside the cloud" disagree with the above which is by the way a purposefully narrowed down explanation of rain formation to the outter layers of the cloud in order to try and create a conflict with the Quranic statement about rain coming from inside the cloud?

As to "clearing up my misinterpretation", I simply shown you the verses that are very obviously show that the quranic earth was flat.

You quoted verses claiming they support a certain view, which proved to be -at best- due to honest misunderstanding or -most probably- stubborn denial combined with ignorance of the language and context.