Qur'an 5:110, clear sign of fakeness

[marduk]

5:110 (Y. Ali) Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

In this ayat Allah tells us that he has a partner, the Holy Spirit. You know, the Holy Spirit which is part of the trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit? That one. Then Allah caps it off by reciting a fairy tale about Jesus making clay birds come to life which he apparently read in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas. You know, this one;

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas is a pseudepigraphical gospel about the childhood of Jesus that dates to the 2nd and 3rd centuries. It was part of a popular genre of biblical work, written to satisfy a hunger among early Christians for more miraculous and anecdotal stories of the childhood of Jesus than the Gospel of Luke provided. Later references by Hippolytus of Rome and Origen of Alexandria to a Gospel of Thomas are more likely to be referring to this Infancy Gospel than to the wholly different Gospel of Thomas with which it is sometimes confused.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas

Here's what pseudepigraphical means;

Pseudepigrapha are falsely attributed works, texts whose claimed authorship is unfounded; a work, simply, "whose real author attributed it to a figure of the past."[1] The word "pseudepigrapha" (from the Greek: ψευδής, pseudēs,"lying" or "false" and ἐπιγραφή, epigraphē, "name" or "inscription" or "ascription"; thus when taken together it means "false superscription or title"[2]; see the related epigraphy) is the plural of "pseudepigraphon" (sometimes Latinized as "pseudepigraphum"); the Anglicized forms "pseudepigraph" and "pseudepigraphs" are also used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudepigraphical

Get the picture? Clear signs of fakeness.

[abc123]

5:110 (Y. Ali) Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

In this ayat Allah tells us that he has a partner, the Holy Spirit. You know, the Holy Spirit which is part of the trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit? That one. Then Allah caps it off by reciting a fairy tale about Jesus making clay birds come to life which he apparently read in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas. You know, this one;

According to some historians the story of the birds was an addition. An addition because it is not available in the accepted today's Gospels. To me it is not really an issue because we never know for certain if the making of bird to life as real or not.
To me all of them has not been proven, including his existance. We only take them by faith that all this narrations is true. You know it takes bit of time of contemplation when reading religious literature s. We don't have to jump in every instance.

[marduk]

It's an addition alright. The Infancy Gospel of Thomas is the only other place than the Qur'an where you find the clay birds story. Do you not think Matthew, John, Paul and Luke would have mentioned Jesus breathing life into clay like Allah if it had happened? Would that miracle in itself not prove Jesus the son of Allah? Do you know of any other mere Prophet who could breathe life into clay exactly like Allah did with Adam? Nice of the Qur"an to confirm that miracle as legitimate, because now we know for sure that Jesus was the Son of Allah, his middle name was Akhmed. And no, you can't say "Jesus did it by Allah's leave". Everything is by Allah's leave, isn't it? Jesus still physically did it and no other Prophet did, including Muhammad.

[ringmaster]

......................Everything is by Allah's leave, isn't it? ................

That's what muslims tell us anyhow. Evidently for muslims, however, that is not a sufficiently good explanation as to why a billion muslims (or even just the 200 million Arabs) are too stupid to subdue a few million Jews. They have to blame somebody else for that.

[HomerJay]

I doubt "strengthened thee with the holy spirit" would faze most Muslims. Since its not capitalized they will claim it was just an aspect of Allah's power, an not a separate entity. It's just a part of Allah"s "spirit", which is naturally "holy":)
Of course, it begs the question why Allah just didn't say "I strengthened you". It would have made things clearer. But Allah has a lot on his plate, he can't be writing draft after draft of his book. He's a busy deity.

[abc123]

I doubt "strengthened thee with the holy spirit" would faze most Muslims. Since its not capitalized they will claim it was just an aspect of Allah's power, an not a separate entity.

Verily this is a Revelation from the Lord of the Worlds: (192)
With it came down the Spirit of Faith and Truth― (193)
To thy heart and mind, that thou mayest admonish (194)

But Allah has a lot on his plate, he can't be writing draft after draft of his book. He's a busy deity.

Your understanding that God over there and we are here need to be reviewed.

[peterpin]

Abc123,

would you agree that the quran would have had SOURCES, such as the gospel of Thomas?
Would you also agree that such sources come from a range of older texts, some biblical, some other sources?

The stoy of the birds is first mentioned in a text attributed to Thomas the apostle, but written much, much later, after his death.Therefore Christians reject this text as unreliable. And yet,it has found its way into the quran. Not odd?

The story of the sleepers in the cave is a Greek fairy tale. How did that get into the quran?

How did some snippits from the Talmud end up in there?

What about the jinn, they were a pre-islamic pagan idea... isn't odd that they get a mention?

To me it seem quite obvious that the author of the quran had no idea of the difference between authentic religious texts and other writings.

It's author simply collected all sorts of bits and pieces and re-used them. Sometimes he even got them muddled up, like Joseph being sold for dirhams, or the Egyptian paraohs crucifying people.

The quran very obviously pre-supposes that the world is flat,just as people did at the time of Mohammed.

So, would that not be enough to conclude that the quran is a very earthly text, written by one or more men, who were neither very clever nor careful, nor had a lot of imagination?

Finally, the quran spends a lot of effort in telling people to obey Mohammed, to justify his actions, and to give Mohammed priviledges. His sex-life seems to be quite an important issue in the quran. Does that not strike you as somewhat suspicious?

Who benefited most from the quran?

[HomerJay]

Sure seems to me Allah/Jibril/Mohammed were getting their info from the street-corner in Mecca.

[Qur'an 5:116] And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

This is just plain wrong. Clearly Allah is suggesting that Christians believe Mary was part of the trinity. To suggest that Allah was just picking a random example of a "false suggestion" to CORRECT, is ludicrous. He might as well have said "Didst thou say that you and your attorney were two gods beside Allah?" Idiotic. Allah is clearly CORRECTING what he believed was a common belief in the Christian trinity. There is no other reasonable interpretation of the verse.

[marduk]

[Qur'an 5:116] And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

Good point, Jesus. Why is Allah asking you what you said when he's the all-knowing Allah? Why is Allah asking anybody anything? Allah has revealed himself to be a minor deity of the Semites with a delusion of being the one true God of everything. We have standards, Allah. The one true God has to know all. Apparently you don't qualify. You have to ask Jesus stuff. That means Jesus is superior to you. Wait a minute...Jesus IS God, isn't he Allah. I knew it. Mary is probably a Goddess too. As for you, Allah, you ain't sh!t. You think you're too good to be part of a trinity, then get the hell out of here and go be the god of the Jews and Arabs. Maybe THEY are dumb enough to worship you, Mr. I need to ask people questions because I'm non-all-knowing.

[Jimi]

[.
To me all of them has not been proven, including his existance. We only take them by faith that all this narrations is true. You know it takes bit of time of contemplation when reading religious literature s. We don't have to jump in every instance.[/quote]

I had a friend from palastine. He said he knew for sure Jesus lived because he played where he walked.

[HomerJay]

Why is Allah asking you what you said when he's the all-knowing Allah?

Good catch. I missed that. I'm so used to Allah saying stupid and contradictory and REPETITIVE things that his asking people questions didn't seem noteworthy. Hey, when someone advises people to dunk flies completely into their drinks because one wing has the poison and the other the antidote, asking questions just doesn't seem that remarkable.

[ringmaster]

...................................................

Get the picture? Clear signs of fakeness.

The very fact that there is abrogation, whether (as Mesmorial likes to claim) the abrogation applies only to earlier scripture or not, shows that the god of the koran is fake.

Of course, any reading of verse 2-106 shows that abrogation does apply to the koran. The wording is "whatever communication". By not specifically excluding the koran, it is included by default.

[HomerJay]

I like how right after talking about how he will "bring new pronouncements" to replace old ones, he ends with a Robert de Niro-like "Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?"
Are you talking to me? Do your know what I can do to you if you question me? You won't like me when I'm angry. Now get outta here!"

[manfred]

It is quite telling that, for example in Indonesian, the word for newspaper is "koran".

Mohammed treated the quran as a sort daily support bulletin for his own actions, allah supplying the words of the moment, the words that get Mohammed out of trouble. Contradictions? No problem, as in any newpaper type publication, simply look at the last edition, it always supersedes earlier ones.

What is quite astonishing, it that Islam makes, at least in it's early days, no attempt at all to deal with or even to hide some of these issues. Dissent was deal with by punishment, not be discussion. That is something that has not changed...

[marduk]

O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?

Mary IS a god, along with Jesus and YHVH. Who hasn't heard of the visions of Mary in Spain and France? Only a god/goddess can appear and make accurate predictions about world events. I think Mary, Jesus and Allah are all gods, just that Allah is the chief god. Mary and Jesus were both slightly lower gods than Allah who incarnated into human bodies. In fact, I think Mary was Allah's wife. Why else was she having his baby? Mary and the Queen of Heaven are one and the same. The QoH is Allah's wife, or "consort". Christianity AND Islam are in error. Now I have set things straight. I'm a plain warner. I am warning people that the Quran and Injeel are in error and that the truth is that we have to worship 3 gods, not just one. Reality isn't that simple that you only have to worship one measly god.

[abc123]

Sure seems to me Allah/Jibril/Mohammed were getting their info from the street-corner in Mecca.

[Qur'an 5:116] And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

This is just plain wrong. Clearly Allah is suggesting that Christians believe Mary was part of the trinity. To suggest that Allah was just picking a random example of a "false suggestion" to CORRECT, is ludicrous. He might as well have said "Didst thou say that you and your attorney were two gods beside Allah?" Idiotic. Allah is clearly CORRECTING what he believed was a common belief in the Christian trinity. There is no other reasonable interpretation of the verse.

The verse above only stated that Jesus will be asked: Did you or did you not say that? And he will say: No I did not say that.
And you create a drama out of it? But aside of that, long time ago in the internet I read two people discussing this the same thing, and it went on and on and on. And I never get it why. With today's availability of search engine things became a lot easier.

The reality is even today there are people that pray to Mary. She is divine figure for many Christians regardless if you don't like it. And it was there before Muhammad. She was known as THEOTOKOS who gave birth to the uncreated.

[peterpin]

The verse above only stated that Jesus will be asked: Did you or did you not say that?

Who is asking? Is t not strange that an omniscient being asks such a question? Will Allah not knwo the answer? So why ask?

The reality is even today there are people that pray to Mary. She is divine figure for many Christians regardless if you don't like it.

Sorry, the reality is that this is simply wrong. I know of NO Chrsitians today that say that Mary is divine. I am sory you don't like that, but it'sa simple, easily provable fact.

As to Θεοτόκος os theotokos, as you put it, it is the title of Mary used in the Orthodox church. It means "bearer of God", in the Catholic Church, her title is usually "Mother of God" which menas much the same thing, but is less precise that the older Greek term, and can cause confusion. She is the one who carried Jesus and gave birth to him, bringing God into this world, playing an imprtant part in God's plan. However, she is NOT part of the trinity, nor worshiped, nor divine. Her part in the story of Jesus makes her an honoured person, something most Christians acknowledge, as there are many other people who have given a special example of faith for others to follow.

There was a tiny sect one that say Mary as a female godess, but it already had died out by the time Mohammed was about.

So Allah'squestions is completely non-sensical... why ask Jesus a nonsense question?

[HomerJay]

The verse above only stated that Jesus will be asked: Did you or did you not say that? And he will say: No I did not say that.
And you create a drama out of it? But aside of that, long time ago in the internet I read two people discussing this the same thing, and it went on and on and on. And I never get it why. With today's availability of search engine things became a lot easier.

The reality is even today there are people that pray to Mary. She is divine figure for many Christians regardless if you don't like it. And it was there before Muhammad. She was known as THEOTOKOS who gave birth to the uncreated.

I was raised Catholic in private schools, so I know something of what I am saying. Mary IS revered among human beings, but no branch that I know of would ever suggest she was equal to Jesus in divinity. Christians (and especially Catholics) pray to her as an honored person for intercession with God, nothing more.

For Allah to suggest such a thing (leaving aside the idiotic part about an omniscient being asking questions to which he SHOULD know the answers), it indicates that he (or whoever is really writing the verse) had only a cursory knowledge of Christianity, just a "layman's understanding" much like assuming the ancient Egyptians crucified people on palm trees or the sun hid under the Earth every night. NOBODY who was an expert in such things (as God surely must be) would ever use the word "gods" when referring to Jesus AND Mary. This is the mistake of someone who figures Mary completes the mysterious "trinity" of God and Son: one nice big happy family. Plus, this chapter of the Quran goes on to mock other aspects of the trinity after this, making it clear to anyone but a Muslims contortionist that Allah thought Mary was part of the trinity. I've met some people who thought that in MY life, and had to educate them. I never thought I would have to educate "Allah" as well.

Some obscure sects HAVE elevated Mary to the rank of minor deity, but for "Allah" to suggest to JESUS that HE has been going around telling people he and MARY were GODS is moronic! This is the sort of mistake an illiterate desert nomad who overheard things wrong at the plazas in Mecca would have made. NOT an omniscient being.

But why are we even debating stuff in the Quran? I believe It says 3 times that the book is "complete" and easy to understand by anyone. There shouldn't be any confusion or disagreement or need for companion volumes to help understand it, right? I sure hope I don't have to explain to Martians that a billion people on my planet still believe this book is the perfect word of God for all time. Man, that would be embarrassing.




..

[Eagle]

5:110 (Y. Ali) Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

In this ayat Allah tells us that he has a partner, the Holy Spirit. You know, the Holy Spirit which is part of the trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit? That one. Then Allah caps it off by reciting a fairy tale about Jesus making clay birds come to life which he apparently read in the Infancy Gospel of Thomas. You know, this one;

The Infancy Gospel of Thomas is a pseudepigraphical gospel about the childhood of Jesus that dates to the 2nd and 3rd centuries. It was part of a popular genre of biblical work, written to satisfy a hunger among early Christians for more miraculous and anecdotal stories of the childhood of Jesus than the Gospel of Luke provided. Later references by Hippolytus of Rome and Origen of Alexandria to a Gospel of Thomas are more likely to be referring to this Infancy Gospel than to the wholly different Gospel of Thomas with which it is sometimes confused.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Infancy_Gospel_of_Thomas

Here's what pseudepigraphical means;

Pseudepigrapha are falsely attributed works, texts whose claimed authorship is unfounded; a work, simply, "whose real author attributed it to a figure of the past."[1] The word "pseudepigrapha" (from the Greek: ψευδής, pseudēs,"lying" or "false" and ἐπιγραφή, epigraphē, "name" or "inscription" or "ascription"; thus when taken together it means "false superscription or title"[2]; see the related epigraphy) is the plural of "pseudepigraphon" (sometimes Latinized as "pseudepigraphum"); the Anglicized forms "pseudepigraph" and "pseudepigraphs" are also used.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudepigraphical

Get the picture? Clear signs of fakeness.

What a ghost town this FFI site has become, with the repetition of simple issues already explained many times to its obsessed dwellers.

During Jesus' ministry, the Israelites to whom he was preaching the return to the straight path kept rejecting him, despite the miracles he performed. Some of these miracles the Quran mentions 3:49 while the NT purposefully omits Jn20:30"Jesus performed many other signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book" Jn21:25"Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written". The bird from clay miracle for example is reported outside the canonical Gospels in the infancy Gospel of Thomas, although it connects this miracle to his childhood along with the ability to speak in the craddle, while the Quran only qualifies the ability to speak in the craddle as a childhood miracle (serving the purpose of clearing Mary of the slanders), and then proceeds to connect the bird from clay miracle to his ministry to the Israelites, coming to them and preaching and performing other miracles with Allah's permission like his healing powers and knowledge of the unseen 3:49-55,5:110. Obviously there would have been no reason to give Jesus such powers in his childhood, because he needed them in adulthood in support of his ministry to demonstrate certain points. Just because this book was rejected as apocrypha, does not mean it was rejected for all of it's contents and besides, a man's apocrypha was another's scripture until very late in the canonization process of the Bible, as seen with the book of revelation regarded as apocrypha and then finally canonized.

[Eagle]

Sure seems to me Allah/Jibril/Mohammed were getting their info from the street-corner in Mecca.

[Qur'an 5:116] And behold! Allah will say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Didst thou say unto men, 'Take me and my mother for two gods beside Allah'?" He will say: "Glory to Thee! Never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing thou wouldst indeed have known it. Thou knowest what is in my heart, though I know not what in Thine. For Thou knowest in full all that is hidden.

This is just plain wrong. Clearly Allah is suggesting that Christians believe Mary was part of the trinity. To suggest that Allah was just picking a random example of a "false suggestion" to CORRECT, is ludicrous. He might as well have said "Didst thou say that you and your attorney were two gods beside Allah?" Idiotic. Allah is clearly CORRECTING what he believed was a common belief in the Christian trinity. There is no other reasonable interpretation of the verse.

In 5:116 Allah questions Jesus whether he asked to be worshiped along with Mary. Christians and Catholics worship Allah, but most of the time they do not just like the Meccan pagans prior to Islam. Christians and Catholics address most of their prayers to specific personalities like Jesus or the Father or Mary and occasionaly the HolySpirit. These personalities are believed to be capable of interceding on their own in the process of salvation. 5:116 points out Catholics in particular and their well known excessive worship of Mary, as other Christian denominations repudiate and denounce. In 5:116 the Quran accuses Christians of taking Mary as an ilah. The word is used for any entity that is worshiped 10:18,30:13.
When the Catholics spoken of in 5:116 address Mary in their prayers, they are taking her as a god besides Allah, like the pagans did when they prayed to deities besides Allah to whom all prayers is due 6:56,13:14-16,22:73 and whom they also worshiped 43:9,87,29:63,10:31,31:25"And if you ask them who created the heavens and the earth, they will certainly say: Allah".

When the pagans or the Christians address prayers to other entities than Allah whom they worship, they are taking gods besides Him regardless of whether they are aware of their polytheism/shirk or not. In fact the Quran repeatedly says how those who associate with Allah other deities, saints or personalities, religious leaders or their own selves by following ways incited by their own desires that were never divinely sanctionned 9:31,6:136-9,25:43,36:60,42:21 do so without even knowing it 23:84-9,29:60-65
When their deviation is pointed to them, they deny their obvious polytheism and invent the same excuses Catholics say today when even their Christian brethren accuse them of idolatry 39:3"We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah". Catholics today claim that they do not worship Mary but simply ask her for intercession with the supreme God, as stated in the verse. This confirms yet again man's tendency to deviate from the path of pure monotheism 12:106"And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him)".

The Quran refutes the notion that an entity has any authority by itself to intercede, precisely in order to avoid such deviations. The authority of intercession belongs to Allah only and He grants it to whom He pleases, on behalf of the people who deserve it as a way to honor them, not to plead with them to God.

Despite her oft repeated exalted status, her clearing from the slanders of the Jews regarding her chastity, Mary in the Quran is neither presented as a goddess nor a mother-God. She is told to 3:43"keep to obedience to your Lord and humble yourself, and bow down with those who bow".

The verse 5:116 is not concerned with warning Christians against the Trinity. 5:116 is a warning against shirk, with the veneration of Mary being a very big part of the roman and orthodox variants of Christianity.
The Trinity and other deviations that Jesus' followers and their descendants fell prey to are mentioned elsewhere in the Quran. Trinity is specifically denounced in 4:171 that says to Christians not to say "three" when speaking of Allah's nature, Allah is One. In this "trinity context", the verse mentions Mary's name twice without saying anything about her being a deity according to that doctrine while it strongly refutes Jesus' deity who is believed to be part of it, by describing him as Allah's messenger, born of a woman, having a ruh/soul created by Allah ie a human being like any other.

Trinity is not addressed in details, the position of the Quran is that who or what comprises this doctrine is not important; what is important is that the very notion of a Trinity is an affront against the concept of One God. This concept developped by the "Church Fathers" through several councils and debates, since it is not even present in the Bible have gradually fashionned Christianity the way it is today which is why the Quran accuses Christians of taking their religious leaders for lords besides/min doon Allah 9:31. This is yet another aspect of their polytheism/shirk which followers of all religions easily fall into, even Muslims when they give divine authority to that which God never sanctioned through His messengers 42:21.

The Quran is not a pamphlet concerned in exposing each deviation Christians fell into. It gives a few examples that apply to all cases:
- do not say "three" when speaking of Allah's nature 4:171
- do not take gods besides Allah 5:116 (when prayers are addressed to specific personalities like it is done daily in the case of Mary and Jesus)
- do not take your religious leaders as lords besides Allah 9:31