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Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:21 am
by Eagle
Connedbymo+co wrote:
Eagle wrote:
The verse 50:6, like 67:3-4, directs our eyes to a specific region of the sky; that of the stars where it precisely says that the cosmic bodies literally swim/yasbahun. This dismisses your theory of a solid sky on the spot. Go there viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12725&start=320#p183627 for further education. Al-sama' means "what is above", these verses ask the audience and readers to look at all that is above and notice the coherence. There is no break in that coherence because of the regularity and uniformity of the laws working in
the universe "Who created the seven heavens one above another; you see no incongruity in the creation of the Beneficent Allah; then look again, can you see any disorder?" These verses come in the context of providing proof for divine justice because just as One Being subjected this world to coherent laws without any sudden break in uniformity, He will subject the hereafter to the same principle of coherence especially in regards to the just reward of good and evil.



This is waffling at its best! :lol:
You claimed they sky/canopy was referring to the atmosphere, yet I showed you this cannot be the case as the author of the claims they are already aware the sky is a cannopy.
So you then admit they could not of known about the amosphere, so obviously this can't be what the koran is describing.
Arabs believed the sky was a solid canopy and the Koran says the same thing and tells them it's a sign.
They also thought it was a perfect structure without cracks and guess what.......this is how it's described in the Koran.
This is so obvious and simple to follow.
What are you dishonest or stupid? I think we both know the answer to that one!


Eagle wrote:
No we dont agree and the point keeps sailing over your simple head so here it is again for you to ponder upon:

21:32 is a sign for them in that it shelters life on earth, a fact observable to all humans, just like the earth being called a "couch" is a sign one can verify by seeing how it has been made hospitable for life.


It was an observable fact for people in the 7th century that the sky was a solid canopy withouth any cracks.
The Koran being a 7th century book says the same thing and claims this is a sign to them!
Therefore it has confirmed their erroneous understanding completely.

Thats as simple as it gets. I'm sure this point isn't sailing over your head but rather self deception is preventing this fact being processed in your brain.


Eagle wrote:Good luck and have a nice day


Good day to you and I hope you will see facts for what they when it comes to the Koran.
However, good luck alone won't be enough for you to free yourself from this mental salvery.

In order to do so you will probably need to read this as fear is your problem:

Fear is what keeps Islam going, if you can eliminate fear Islam has nothing to stand on. Unless you fear Allah and hell you can't actually be a muslim.
This fear prevents a muslim from critical thinking when it come to Islam. Which is why most muslims are trapped for life.


The following is an explanation for this from a evolutionary point of view:

The evolutionary primacy of the brain's fear circuitry makes it more powerful than the brain's reasoning faculties. The amygdala sprouts a profusion of connections to higher brain regions—neurons that carry one-way traffic from amygdala to neocortex. Few connections run from the cortex to the amygdala, however. That allows the amygdala to override the products of the logical, thoughtful cortex, but not vice versa. So although it is sometimes possible to think yourself out of fear ("I know that dark shape in the alley is just a trash can"), it takes great effort and persistence. Instead, fear tends to overrule reason, as the amygdala hobbles our logic and reasoning circuits. That makes fear "far, far more powerful than reason," says neurobiologist Michael Fanselow of the University of California, Los Angeles.


http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2 ... -fear.html



Verses 50:6,67:3-4 direct our eyes to the region where cosmic bodies yasbahun/swim. It cannot be speaking of a solid entity we are to inspect for cracks. Reality was depicted to you in elementary terms there viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12725&p=184096&sid=8c7e63c2b37b95cd4dfc869f934608d9#p184077, i cannot reword it with more simplicity than it already was.

Keep searching for the truth with sincerity and have a nice day

Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:32 am
by Eagle
enceladus wrote:If Eagle is intelligent, he will now admit that he has been deceived by the imams and mullahs.
There is no shame in such an admission - there is a lot of respect to be gained.

Iffo admitted that Islam is a fraud, and he now has our respect (eh, iffo!) ;)

If Eagle is not intelligent, he will continue to deny the obvious, and squirm around like a fish on a hook.

There is no escape. There is no "inviolable barrier" between fresh and salt water.
- enceladus


Those to whom the verse was primarly addressed, the Arabs, were land and sea travellers. Are you seriously alleging they never passed through estuaries or any points where a river met the ocean to see both bodies of water mixing?
25:53 doesnt locate that barrier between the 2 water types simply because it isnt speaking of a physical location where the 2 meet and do not mix, as you seem to understand. Its the opposite, as pointed to in the words "flowing freely" meaning without any restriction or barrier between the 2. Yet despite this continuous mixing, there ever remains in this world 2 types of water. That is the barrier referred to at the verse's end, the fact that the laws of nature established by the Creator allow the free mingling of fresh and salt water without that one of the 2 types ceases to exist due to that mixing.

Keep searching and pondering on the Quran. But take a break from time to time to digest the deep and complex information that is overwhelming you

Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 9:48 am
by Centaur
Keep searching and pondering on the Quran. But take a break from time to time to digest the deep and complex information that is overwhelming you

how this information that sea water is saline and rivers are not saline, is complex in anyway? Or do you think the 7th century arabs had a different idea? Also there is no barrier between sea and fresh water as Koran mistakenly says, its just that the sea cannot flow uphill to mix up with the fresh water a river carries which is flowing down hill, but they mix up in the estuary they meet.A simple natural phenomenon that is easily observable.That proves Koran is crap time and again. So take rest time to time to reflect on these errors.

Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 1:30 pm
by Connedbymo+co
Eagle wrote:

Verses 50:6,67:3-4 direct our eyes to the region where cosmic bodies yasbahun/swim. It cannot be speaking of a solid entity we are to inspect for cracks. Reality was depicted to you in elementary terms there viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12725&p=184096&sid=8c7e63c2b37b95cd4dfc869f934608d9#p184077, i cannot reword it with more simplicity than it already was.

Keep searching for the truth with sincerity and have a nice day


Verse 50.6 only mentions the sky in general not a particular region:

50.006
PICKTHAL: Have they not then observed the sky above them, how We have constructed it and beautified it, and how there are no rifts therein?



7th century Arabs not only believed the solid sky canopy but also thought that the sky and earth were preiously joined together before being seperated.
Which is why they believed like the earth the sky was also solid. One solid entity sperated to become two.

Check http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1 ... 6287232693
http://www.angelfire.com/journal/ofapoet/nut.html

Does the Koran confirm this prevalent myth too?

Of course it does it does and unsurprisingly indicates this was already known to them:
In verse 21:30 PICKTHAL: Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them..

So the Koran clearly confirms the solid sky myth as well as solid sky seperation from earth.
According to this myth whatt came next? Well once the sky was seperated from the earth God lifted the sky and raised it up to create a canopy like a dome.
Does the Koran confirm this myth as well?!!!! :lol:

088.018
YUSUFALI: And at the Sky, how it is raised high?

Verse 79:27/28 also claims the sky Allah has been built and raised just and questions 7th century Arabs about it:

079.027/28
PICKTHAL: Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it;

Which again confirms the Koran is describing the myths they were aware of back then.
Nothing do with an atmosphere!! :wacko:

So, It was an observable fact for people in the 7th century that the sky was a solid canopy withouth any cracks and therefore was buit by a deity.
It was also a prevalent myth the sky and earth were seperated from one another and that the sky was 'raised' high.
A 7th century desert dweller couldn't have described it any better than the Koran has!! :roflmao:

The Koran claims it was easy for early readers to understand:

44.002 PICKTHAL: By the Scripture that maketh plain.

All of which is backed up by classical scholars who understood classical Arabic and the Koran better than anyone today.

So what sky canopy that was built, seperated from earth and raised high and was known to the Arabs in the 7th century?

Fear will prevent you finding the truth, regardless of your sincerity!
Eliminate fear and truth shall set you free.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2 ... -fear.html

Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Mon Jul 02, 2012 3:10 pm
by Fernando
Eagle wrote:25:53 doesnt locate that barrier between the 2 water types simply because it isnt speaking of a physical location where the 2 meet and do not mix, as you seem to understand. Its the opposite, as pointed to in the words "flowing freely" meaning without any restriction or barrier between the 2. Yet despite this continuous mixing, there ever remains in this world 2 types of water. That is the barrier referred to at the verse's end, the fact that the laws of nature established by the Creator allow the free mingling of fresh and salt water without that one of the 2 types ceases to exist due to that mixing.(my emphasis - F)
Pathetic.

Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 11:28 am
by Eagle
Connedbymo+co wrote:Verse 50.6 only mentions the sky in general not a particular region:

50.006
PICKTHAL: Have they not then observed the sky above them, how We have constructed it and beautified it, and how there are no rifts therein?


It tells you to look for rifts where it has been beautified. This refers in Quran terminology to the area where cosmic bodies are (obviously it isnt speaking of beautification with clouds). This area cannot be solid since cosmic bodies swim in it.

Putting aside these unsurmountable problems for your solid sky fantasy, by now claiming 50:6 speaks of "the sky in general", you not only include the heaven of the cosmic bodies but also the heaven where birds and clouds move and which the Quran says is composed of jaww/air 16:79,30:48.

Connedbymo+co wrote:7th century Arabs not only believed the solid sky canopy but also thought that the sky and earth were preiously joined together before being seperated.
Which is why they believed like the earth the sky was also solid. One solid entity sperated to become two.

Check http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1 ... 6287232693
http://www.angelfire.com/journal/ofapoet/nut.html


Quote the part saying:
- the pre-islamic Arabs unanimously/majoritarly thought there were 7 solid domes above their heads as you originally asserted
- the pre-islamic Arabs unanimously/majoritarly thought there were was 1 solid dome above their heads
- the pre-islamic Arabs unanimously/majoritarly thought heavens and earth were one piece originally

Even if you do answer that simple request, which you wont, explain how do these supposed erroneous beliefs necessarly entail that the Quran equally expressed the same view in light of Quranic statements such as those already discussed here viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12725&start=320#p183627 and here viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12725&start=300#p183434 that completely dismiss the notion that the Quran portrays the sky as a solid entity or that it thought heavens and earth were a single piece?

Connedbymo+co wrote:Of course it does it does and unsurprisingly indicates this was already known to them:
In verse 21:30 PICKTHAL: Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them


There is no "one piece" or "joined together" in this verse. The Arabic says heavens and earth were closed, period. Both of them closed on their own until they openned up with life. Go there where one of your forum friends was educated on the same issue viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12725&start=300#p183434

Connedbymo+co wrote:088.018
YUSUFALI: And at the Sky, how it is raised high?

Verse 79:27/28 also claims the sky Allah has been built and raised just and questions 7th century Arabs about it:

079.027/28
PICKTHAL: Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it;

Which again confirms the Koran is describing the myths they were aware of back then.
Nothing do with an atmosphere!


Sure it does.

All the heavens, not only one heaven as you want, have been raised high 20:4 and the Quran draws particular attention to one of these layers and how it was raised 88:18,55:7 with its highest point -the top of the atmosphere- appearing like a vault above the earth called the roof/saqf 52:5. The sama' was one entity then perfected into a "good" state, made thick/samk 79:28, into several distinct entities in tabaq/levels/layers 2:29,67:3,71:15 which each layer having its function 78:12 and being firm and well secured, some of these layers offering protection for the earth like a roof does (stratosphere, mesosphere, upwards) 2:22,40:64 which is why many translators rendered binaa'/structure as roof or canopy in these verses that are clearly drawing the picture of a tent with a comfortable floor (earth), elsewhere likened to a craddle 20:53 and its roof providing protection.


Keep pondering on the Quran long and hard, and keep asking questions

Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:36 pm
by Fernando
Eagle wrote:
Connedbymo+co wrote:Verse 50.6 only mentions the sky in general not a particular region:

50.006
PICKTHAL: Have they not then observed the sky above them, how We have constructed it and beautified it, and how there are no rifts therein?


It tells you to look for rifts where it has been beautified. This refers in Quran terminology to the area where cosmic bodies are (obviously it isnt speaking of beautification with clouds). This area cannot be solid since cosmic bodies swim in it.
Fail - you're disagreeing with the Koran!! What is being debunked is the Koranic idea that the planets, plus stars, each sit in their own solid heaven, which rotates about the (geocentric - another fail)Earth,
Connedbymo+co wrote:088.018
YUSUFALI: And at the Sky, how it is raised high?

Verse 79:27/28 also claims the sky Allah has been built and raised just and questions 7th century Arabs about it:

079.027/28
PICKTHAL: Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it;

Which again confirms the Koran is describing the myths they were aware of back then.
Nothing do with an atmosphere!
Sure it does.

All the heavens, not only one heaven as you want, have been raised high 20:4 and the Quran draws particular attention to one of these layers and how it was raised 88:18,55:7 with its highest point -the top of the atmosphere- appearing like a vault above the earth called the roof/saqf 52:5. The sama' was one entity then perfected into a "good" state, made thick/samk 79:28, into several distinct entities in tabaq/levels/layers 2:29,67:3,71:15 which each layer having its function 78:12 and being firm and well secured, some of these layers offering protection for the earth like a roof does (stratosphere, mesosphere, upwards) 2:22,40:64 which is why many translators rendered binaa'/structure as roof or canopy in these verses that are clearly drawing the picture of a tent with a comfortable floor (earth), elsewhere likened to a craddle 20:53 and its roof providing protection.
Selective citations from the Koran to prove your failed apologetic interpretation of the Koran. Still pathetic.

Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 12:38 pm
by peterpin
eagle wrote:All the heavens, not only one heaven as you want, have been raised high 20:4 and the Quran draws particular attention to one of these layers and how it was raised 88:18,55:7 with its highest point -the top of the atmosphere- appearing like a vault above the earth called the roof/saqf 52:5. The sama' was one entity then perfected into a "good" state, made thick/samk 79:28, into several distinct entities in tabaq/levels/layers 2:29,67:3,71:15 which each layer having its function 78:12 and being firm and well secured, some of these layers offering protection for the earth like a roof does (stratosphere, mesosphere, upwards) 2:22,40:64 which is why many translators rendered binaa'/structure as roof or canopy in these verses that are clearly drawing the picture of a tent with a comfortable floor (earth), elsewhere likened to a craddle 20:53 and its roof providing protection.



eagle, reading your reply, it sound to me as if you are describing a geocentric universe, not unlike this one:

Image

what is more you seem to confirm that this is what the Qur'an teaches...

Well, we now know that Ptolemy did nit get it right. It seems, by copying Ptolemy's ideas, the Qur'an was unaware of the problems with this model. Is that telling you something?

This area [sky/heaven/space] cannot be solid since cosmic bodies swim in it.


Cosmic bodies swim? In what?

Have you ever been on one of those long conveyor belts in an airport. If you stand still on one, you are still moving. Why? Well, the belt is moving of course... So... what about the possibility of the heavens carrying the planets along by themselves moving? Isn't that what the Qur'an means? This idea was once promoted to me by a Muslim who most enthusiastically claimed that this was proof that the Qur'an fully understood gravity... Now you are telling me about swimming planets? Quite the opposite idea? How do they swim? Do they have a propulsion system?

May be your English is a little wonky, and you wanted to say float? (swimming is a willful, deliberate action, floating is not. A living duck swims,a dead duck floats...)

Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:00 pm
by iffo
Fernando wrote:
Eagle wrote:25:53 doesnt locate that barrier between the 2 water types simply because it isnt speaking of a physical location where the 2 meet and do not mix, as you seem to understand. Its the opposite, as pointed to in the words "flowing freely" meaning without any restriction or barrier between the 2. Yet despite this continuous mixing, there ever remains in this world 2 types of water. That is the barrier referred to at the verse's end, the fact that the laws of nature established by the Creator allow the free mingling of fresh and salt water without that one of the 2 types ceases to exist due to that mixing.(my emphasis - F)
Pathetic.


Muslims thinks no matter how idiotic the reply is as long as one writes some garbage back they have defended Quran. It's their wishful thinking. Nobody is stupid like they are to buy their stupid responses.

Eagle's post above proves he has admitted there is an error in Quran regarding 2 types of water not mixing, which he fails to defend.

In order to defend Quran Eagle will go to any length of cheating and lying as there is no shortage of dishonesty.

Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:00 pm
by Connedbymo+co
Eagle wrote:
Connedbymo+co wrote:Verse 50.6 only mentions the sky in general not a particular region:

50.006
PICKTHAL: Have they not then observed the sky above them, how We have constructed it and beautified it, and how there are no rifts therein?


It tells you to look for rifts where it has been beautified. This refers in Quran terminology to the area where cosmic bodies are (obviously it isnt speaking of beautification with clouds). This area cannot be solid since cosmic bodies swim in it.

Putting aside these unsurmountable problems for your solid sky fantasy, by now claiming 50:6 speaks of "the sky in general", you not only include the heaven of the cosmic bodies but also the heaven where birds and clouds move and which the Quran says is composed of jaww/air 16:79,30:48.

Connedbymo+co wrote:7th century Arabs not only believed the solid sky canopy but also thought that the sky and earth were preiously joined together before being seperated.
Which is why they believed like the earth the sky was also solid. One solid entity sperated to become two.

Check http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/1 ... 6287232693
http://www.angelfire.com/journal/ofapoet/nut.html


Quote the part saying:
- the pre-islamic Arabs unanimously/majoritarly thought there were 7 solid domes above their heads as you originally asserted
- the pre-islamic Arabs unanimously/majoritarly thought there were was 1 solid dome above their heads
- the pre-islamic Arabs unanimously/majoritarly thought heavens and earth were one piece originally

Even if you do answer that simple request, which you wont, explain how do these supposed erroneous beliefs necessarly entail that the Quran equally expressed the same view in light of Quranic statements such as those already discussed here viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12725&start=320#p183627 and here viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12725&start=300#p183434 that completely dismiss the notion that the Quran portrays the sky as a solid entity or that it thought heavens and earth were a single piece?

Connedbymo+co wrote:Of course it does it does and unsurprisingly indicates this was already known to them:
In verse 21:30 PICKTHAL: Have not those who disbelieve known that the heavens and the earth were of one piece, then We parted them


There is no "one piece" or "joined together" in this verse. The Arabic says heavens and earth were closed, period. Both of them closed on their own until they openned up with life. Go there where one of your forum friends was educated on the same issue viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12725&start=300#p183434

Connedbymo+co wrote:088.018
YUSUFALI: And at the Sky, how it is raised high?

Verse 79:27/28 also claims the sky Allah has been built and raised just and questions 7th century Arabs about it:

079.027/28
PICKTHAL: Are ye the harder to create, or is the heaven that He built? He raised the height thereof and ordered it;

Which again confirms the Koran is describing the myths they were aware of back then.
Nothing do with an atmosphere!


Sure it does.

All the heavens, not only one heaven as you want, have been raised high 20:4 and the Quran draws particular attention to one of these layers and how it was raised 88:18,55:7 with its highest point -the top of the atmosphere- appearing like a vault above the earth called the roof/saqf 52:5. The sama' was one entity then perfected into a "good" state, made thick/samk 79:28, into several distinct entities in tabaq/levels/layers 2:29,67:3,71:15 which each layer having its function 78:12 and being firm and well secured, some of these layers offering protection for the earth like a roof does (stratosphere, mesosphere, upwards) 2:22,40:64 which is why many translators rendered binaa'/structure as roof or canopy in these verses that are clearly drawing the picture of a tent with a comfortable floor (earth), elsewhere likened to a craddle 20:53 and its roof providing protection.


Keep pondering on the Quran long and hard, and keep asking questions


More waffling and wishful thinking.

The three elements of the solid sky are confirmed by the koran.

1.The canopy 7th century people believed in and considered a sign
2. The sky and earth were separated which the Koran claims 7th century Arabs already knew about.
3. The sky was then raised high which Koran claims 7th century Arabs could see.

All of which are backed up by early scholars.


So what sky canopy that was built, seperated from earth and raised high and was known to the Arabs in the 7th century?

Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:27 pm
by Connedbymo+co
peterpin wrote:
Cosmic bodies swim? In what?




According to early muslims:

The sun, the moon, and the retrograde stars RUN IN ITS DEEP SWELL. THIS IS (MEANT BY) GOD'S WORD: "Each swims in a sphere." "The sphere" is the circulation of the chariot IN THE DEEP SWELL OF THAT OCEAN. By Him Who holds the soul of Muhammad in His hand! If the sun WERE TO EMERGE FROM THAT OCEAN, it would burn everything on earth, including even rocks and stones, and if the moon were to emerge from it, it would afflict (by its heat) the inhabitants of the earth to such and extent that they would worship gods other than God. The exception would be those of God's friends whom He would want to keep free from sin.

The History of Al-Tabari

This indicates that the early muslims believed that the sun, moon and wandering planets were all literally swimming in a sphere.
These spheres were also seen as being a heaven. Hence the seven heavens theory of Ptolemy.

Koran claims ocean exists in heaven:

PICKTHAL: And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was upon the water

Water is held up in heaven and released through gates:

Pickthall Surah 54:11-12“Then opened We the gates of Heaven with pouring
water & caused the Earth to gush forth springs, so that the waters
met for a predestined purpose”

Which is line with the notion of a Primordial Ocean myth.

Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 4:01 pm
by peterpin
Right, that makes sense. If early Muslims had this kind of cosmology, then you would expect the Qur'an to support that notion. The trouble is, Allah

should have known better, right eagle?

and His Throne was upon the water


Well, at least we are getting an idea who invented this:

Image

Shame on Thomas Crapper for stealing the invention and not giving credit to Allah. Also, now we have a good explanation where rain comes from? Allah pulls the chain?

One thing, though, why would Allah need a throne above the water? Does he have a divine bottom to place on it?

Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:02 pm
by Eagle
Connedbymo+co wrote:
peterpin wrote:
Cosmic bodies swim? In what?




According to early muslims:

The sun, the moon, and the retrograde stars RUN IN ITS DEEP SWELL. THIS IS (MEANT BY) GOD'S WORD: "Each swims in a sphere." "The sphere" is the circulation of the chariot IN THE DEEP SWELL OF THAT OCEAN. By Him Who holds the soul of Muhammad in His hand! If the sun WERE TO EMERGE FROM THAT OCEAN, it would burn everything on earth, including even rocks and stones, and if the moon were to emerge from it, it would afflict (by its heat) the inhabitants of the earth to such and extent that they would worship gods other than God. The exception would be those of God's friends whom He would want to keep free from sin.

The History of Al-Tabari

This indicates that the early muslims believed that the sun, moon and wandering planets were all literally swimming in a sphere.
These spheres were also seen as being a heaven. Hence the seven heavens theory of Ptolemy.

Koran claims ocean exists in heaven:

PICKTHAL: And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was upon the water

Water is held up in heaven and released through gates:

Pickthall Surah 54:11-12“Then opened We the gates of Heaven with pouring
water & caused the Earth to gush forth springs, so that the waters
met for a predestined purpose”

Which is line with the notion of a Primordial Ocean myth.


Rain falls from the clouds according to the Book of God 13:17,16:65,18:45,24:43,30:48,43:11 etc etc. These are the gates allegorically referred to in 54:11-12.

Have a nice day and continue pondering on the Quran

Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:15 pm
by Connedbymo+co
Eagle wrote:
Connedbymo+co wrote:
peterpin wrote:
Cosmic bodies swim? In what?




According to early muslims:

The sun, the moon, and the retrograde stars RUN IN ITS DEEP SWELL. THIS IS (MEANT BY) GOD'S WORD: "Each swims in a sphere." "The sphere" is the circulation of the chariot IN THE DEEP SWELL OF THAT OCEAN. By Him Who holds the soul of Muhammad in His hand! If the sun WERE TO EMERGE FROM THAT OCEAN, it would burn everything on earth, including even rocks and stones, and if the moon were to emerge from it, it would afflict (by its heat) the inhabitants of the earth to such and extent that they would worship gods other than God. The exception would be those of God's friends whom He would want to keep free from sin.

The History of Al-Tabari

This indicates that the early muslims believed that the sun, moon and wandering planets were all literally swimming in a sphere.
These spheres were also seen as being a heaven. Hence the seven heavens theory of Ptolemy.

Koran claims ocean exists in heaven:

PICKTHAL: And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was upon the water

Water is held up in heaven and released through gates:

Pickthall Surah 54:11-12“Then opened We the gates of Heaven with pouring
water & caused the Earth to gush forth springs, so that the waters
met for a predestined purpose”

Which is line with the notion of a Primordial Ocean myth.


Rain falls from the clouds according to the Book of God 13:17,16:65,18:45,24:43,30:48,43:11 etc etc. These are the gates allegorically referred to in 54:11-12.

Have a nice day and continue pondering on the Quran


54:11-12 refers to the flood which punished Noahs people.
According to the flood myth, God had literally opened the floodgates of the solid sky in order to punish and drown these evil people.
It wasn't normal rainfall but rather like an avalanche which caused the flooding.
Regardless, people thought clouds carried water, but they still thought the water originated from the 'sky'.
Once again the Koran confirms this myth and proves the sky is solid.

Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Tue Jul 03, 2012 8:20 pm
by Eagle
peterpin wrote:
eagle wrote:All the heavens, not only one heaven as you want, have been raised high 20:4 and the Quran draws particular attention to one of these layers and how it was raised 88:18,55:7 with its highest point -the top of the atmosphere- appearing like a vault above the earth called the roof/saqf 52:5. The sama' was one entity then perfected into a "good" state, made thick/samk 79:28, into several distinct entities in tabaq/levels/layers 2:29,67:3,71:15 which each layer having its function 78:12 and being firm and well secured, some of these layers offering protection for the earth like a roof does (stratosphere, mesosphere, upwards) 2:22,40:64 which is why many translators rendered binaa'/structure as roof or canopy in these verses that are clearly drawing the picture of a tent with a comfortable floor (earth), elsewhere likened to a craddle 20:53 and its roof providing protection.



eagle, reading your reply, it sound to me as if you are describing a geocentric universe, not unlike this one:

Image

what is more you seem to confirm that this is what the Qur'an teaches...

Well, we now know that Ptolemy did nit get it right. It seems, by copying Ptolemy's ideas, the Qur'an was unaware of the problems with this model. Is that telling you something?

This area [sky/heaven/space] cannot be solid since cosmic bodies swim in it.


Cosmic bodies swim? In what?

Have you ever been on one of those long conveyor belts in an airport. If you stand still on one, you are still moving. Why? Well, the belt is moving of course... So... what about the possibility of the heavens carrying the planets along by themselves moving? Isn't that what the Qur'an means? This idea was once promoted to me by a Muslim who most enthusiastically claimed that this was proof that the Qur'an fully understood gravity... Now you are telling me about swimming planets? Quite the opposite idea? How do they swim? Do they have a propulsion system?

May be your English is a little wonky, and you wanted to say float? (swimming is a willful, deliberate action, floating is not. A living duck swims,a dead duck floats...)


What does geocentricity have anything to do with the layering of the heavens (not the cosmic bodies) around the earth.

As to the swimming of the cosmic bodies in sama' addunya/the heaven of the world, several forces cause this movement and among them the cosmic bodies' own gravity.

Good that you read the Quran, continue pondering hard over it.

Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:24 am
by Centaur
7 heavens is ancient preislamic myth, you are simply putting words into allahs mouth.Koran also proposes a 7 earths theory which muslims dont bother to explain.The only thing which is clear from Koran is that Mohammed believed in a solid sky so did 7th century arabs

Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:17 pm
by fero
hi eagle
i am new one plz explain what is heaven in quran ? heaven mean universe , galaxy , layers of atmosphere , stars or what else

Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:02 pm
by Centaur
ok Forget to add Alexander Romance getting into quran as facts of history

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dhul-Qarnayn_and_the_Alexander_Romance

Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2014 9:19 pm
by Centaur
A statistics of repetition of Qur'an
jahannam (Hell) - 77 times
الجحيم al-ja7iim (Hell) - 23 times
النار al-naar (the Fire) - 102 times
عذاب 'adhaab (punishment/doom etc) - 306 times
Mohammed looks like an wholesaler of Fear. He himself said " I have been made victorious through TERROR"

Re: Top 5 Errors in Koran

PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2014 12:20 am
by iffo
Centaur wrote:A statistics of repetition of Qur'an
jahannam (Hell) - 77 times
الجحيم al-ja7iim (Hell) - 23 times
النار al-naar (the Fire) - 102 times
عذاب 'adhaab (punishment/doom etc) - 306 times
Mohammed looks like an wholesaler of Fear. He himself said " I have been made victorious through TERROR"

He did not have much material, he repeated same stuff over and over again.