Questions for Mesmorial

[yeezevee]

Enceladus (and the other strugglers);

I'm not interested in your silly games. You have already proved that you are a Muslim.
You asked me why I thought that my view of the inheritance laws was right.
That's exactly the kind of diversion that a Muslim does - instead of answering the question.

No it means why do you think you are right? Thinking you cannot be questioned is why you look stupid.

You also appear stupid when you fall for Sum posting a long-outdated quote.

The fact is that they cannot refute me, so they try this.


Cheers.

Yap.. "Thinking you cannot be questioned is why you look stupid" and people who question of the logic of that NON-Muslim m&m are stupid.

so can I question you m&m??

Would you consider Quran is word of Allah? Is Allah a God?? what is God in your logic??

[MesMorial]

peterpin;


Having admitted the Qur'an does not approve of other sources, why do you contradict your prior statement that we should look closely at religion? Did logic go out the window? Why does it only matter what some scholars say?


I have already created my own "religion":

http://allpoetry.com/Minhaj


A result of following it is promoting rational, progressive thinking. When you get more people doing it, you can change popular fallacies. As I said, Sunnism is a symptom, not a core problem. FFI is confused about that, and shares the same corruption which sustains Sunnism. What a surprise.

All we need to know is that FFI is useless, since it prescribes what Islam is, and can't actually do anything (about its own prescriptions). However, it can rant and mock and lie.


Cheers.

[MesMorial]

sum, yeezevee


What a stupid question. I have answered it before.

I am not of the opinion the Qur'an is divine. I don't need the Qur'an, because I have my own philosophy. sum already knew this; yeezevee already knew this.

The problem is, it didn't register.


Cheers.

[MesMorial]

To change something, we must change the way we see it.

Islamic reform only works as part of a move towards logical, unbiased, critical and unemotional analysis. In a world where logic is less valuable than bandwagons, identity and emotional gratification, it requires non-Muslims to recognise it as the result of intellectual values (even if to them, “Islamic reform” is irrelevant (to real “Truth”).

Islamophobia can be dealt with if done from a progressive (rather than a religious or faith-based) viewpoint. In this way Qur'an-alone rides the wave towards logical, objective and unemotional thinking (i.e. as part of a broad approach, rather than just religous). Muslims and non-Muslims can thus get along, with wider perceptions of "Islam" changing.

With a few intelligent people, the culture of the forum can change. The arguments of "Qur'an-alone" are adequate, but I don't stray from the Sunni interpretation (since it can be addressed on its own terms).

The purpose here is to expose and make an example of a core (corrupt) root. People can then see how weak Islamophobia is, and that people like Ali Sina do not have a chance if confronted.

In reality, it is Islamophobia and Sunnism vs. progressive Philosophy and Islamic reform. FFI defends Hadith to its core doctrine. There has never been a better time to push it.

[peterpin]

Having admitted the Qur'an does not approve of other sources, why do you contradict your prior statement that we should look closely at religion?

What on earth are you talking about... I don't care what the quran says and I am quite clear that it is of no worth whatever. However,it is dangerous because of the stranglehold it has over others. (You included) That is the only reason I look at it at all.

So I should not look at Islam using all available sources and information available because the quran forbids it? I don't give a rat's arse what the quran forbids.

The quran does not stand up to serious,or even cursory examination as a divine text, and I am glad to hear you say you agree with me at least on that, or at least seem to.... Why you still mull it around in you head, I don't know. Dump it. Start from stratch. Don'teven use it as a source. There are much better ones.

And when I say from scratch,I mean from scratch. Start with questions like: Do we need religion? What purpose should it have? Should a religion insist on the existence of a god? (Not all do) How, if at all, will religion improve quality of life and make me a better person? Don't bother looking in the quran for answers to such questions, find your own answers. THEN perhaps look what other people think.

As to reforming Islam,I don't believe it it capable of reform. It needs to die out. The reason why there are websites such as this is because Islam is dangerous to others. It it was just plain silly, nobody would waste their time on it. Islam should come with a mental health warning; it's dangerous to its followers and to all around them.

To change something, we must change the way we see it.

No, we need to understand it, and through that find appropriate methods to effect change. You don't change a building by looking at it from the other side.

[MesMorial]

What on earth are you talking about... I don't care what the quran says and I am quite clear that it is of no worth whatever. However,it is dangerous because of the stranglehold it has over others. (You included) That is the only reason I look at it at all.

You said before:

/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12534#p177807

Which means that you do not mean what you say.

So I should not look at Islam using all available sources and information available because the quran forbids it? I don't give a rat's arse what the quran forbids.

Meaning you don’t give a RA what Islam is.

The quran does not stand up to serious,or even cursory examination as a divine text, and I am glad to hear you say you agree with me at least on that, or at least seem to.... Why you still mull it around in you head, I don't know. Dump it. Start from stratch. Don'teven use it as a source. There are much better ones.

Fine but maybe you have not pinned my point.

And when I say from scratch,I mean from scratch. Start with questions like: Do we need religion? What purpose should it have? Should a religion insist on the existence of a god? (Not all do) How, if at all, will religion improve quality of life and make me a better person? Don't bother looking in the quran for answers to such questions, find your own answers. THEN perhaps look what other people think.

Done that in my link there.

As to reforming Islam,I don't believe it it capable of reform. It needs to die out. The reason why there are websites such as this is because Islam is dangerous to others. It it was just plain silly, nobody would waste their time on it. Islam should come with a mental health warning; it's dangerous to its followers and to all around them.

It is possible since it is already done. You just have to reform people, and we start that by reforming ourselves.

No, we need to understand it, and through that find appropriate methods to effect change. You don't change a building by looking at it from the other side.

You need to have the motivation to do so. Motivation comes from seeing things properly. For instance, Islam can be reformed, but you look at it as if it can’t. I see it otherwise, which is a result of logic. If we see things properly, we understand it. For you, understanding is one-dimensional.

[peterpin]

Please don't put my mouth.

I do care to know what Islam is, not because I find it attractive or see any value in it, but because it is dangerous. If you go picking mushrooms in the forest you need to know the poisonous ones. So if you study them, that does not mean you want to eat them.

Having said that, to avoid talking cross purposes, be good enough and define your personal meaning of the word Islam. For once, be precise, be clear and don't fudge, just put it all here.

That way we can at least be sure we are discussing the same topic... perhaps when we start walking on the same road we get to the same place.

[sum]

Hello MesMorial

I asked you if you thought that the Koran had a divine origin because, although I knew what you have previously said, there are new members of the forum who would benefit by knowing.

If you are guided by Minhajianism do you think that you can now completely reject crucifixion as a punishment in all circumstances?

sum

[antineoETC]

sum, yeezevee


What a stupid question. I have answered it before.

I am not of the opinion the Qur'an is divine. I don't need the Qur'an, because I have my own philosophy. sum already knew this; yeezevee already knew this.

It appears then that you have within the last year gone from being a believer in the Qur'an to no longer being one. What prompted this conversion to disbelief? Furthermore, rather than seek to convert sunni Muslims to Qur'an-only Islam, wouldn't your time be better employed in seeking to convince them of your own realization that Muhammad was a false prophet and the Qur'an a fraud?

[yeezevee]

"MesMorial" says to sum & yeezevee


What a stupid question. I have answered it before.

I am not of the opinion the Qur'an is divine. I don't need the Qur'an, because I have my own philosophy. sum already knew this; yeezevee already knew this.

The problem is, it didn't register.


Cheers.

and sum says

I asked you if you thought that the Koran had a divine origin because, although I knew what you have previously said, there are new members of the forum who would benefit by knowing.

If you are guided by Minhajianism do you think that you can now completely reject crucifixion as a punishment in all circumstances?

sum

well Minhajianism is all poetry of prophet MesMorial., it is nothing to do with Islam sum., MesMorial is very smart., sends m&m chocolates without answering questions.,

See that wording from m&m. "I am not of the opinion the Qur'an is divine." .. what does that mean?? Quran is not divine., no one asked whether Quran is divine or not.. We all know it is a book., Question was.,

Was Quran originated from divine??? which is different from Quran is not divine. Any way you should ask questions around Quran for these 19ers ..

[Connedbymo+co]

Mesmorial, you claim the Koran has no divine origin yet on another thread you claim:
"The Qur’an is an announcement containing precepts contained within a book (in Heaven). This announcement need only be produced verbally in order for the book to be “revealed”.

Is this not a contradiction?
Also have you seen this 'book' you talk about. if not how do you know it exists in haven?

[iffo]

I have already created my own "religion":

http://allpoetry.com/Minhaj




Cheers.

Wasn't I right when I called you sometime back prophet MM.
Founder of new religion which so far has one follower and that is MM himself.

We need to get rid of religions not add more. I wish instead of wasting your time you can use all that time and energy in getting rid of Islam.

Don't you think people need to know the truth.

[yeezevee]

prophet MM.
Founder of new religion which so far has one follower and that is MM himself.
.........

Well you know MesMorial is competing with Islam., Islam started with one follower Prophet Muhammad so MesMorial starts with one. Islam started with poetry and poems so MesMorial starts with poetry and poems . Now what all we need here is a Person like Khadija and her millions to propel that Minhajism


but you got something wrong there iffo .. i would change that Prophet MM to Prophet m&m



I like prophet M&M., Sweet and tasty stuff with different colors and different tastes.

[MesMorial]

Islam is the way of life mandated by the Qur’an.

Crucifixion is not “good” in any circumstances. If it were practiced it would be because someone did it to someone else. This is logical, but it is NOT necessary to practice it, and so people may decide not to! I would go with the context, because we tend to adapt to value-systems around us. In a society with direction, deterrants will be less necessary. All factors should be considered, and any motive noted. It can be argued that incapacitating someone (e.g. jail, community work) is more constructive for society as a whole, but then for someone who murders for fun (or greed etc.), that is different.

I left Islam when my answers to questions stopped coming. There were always more questions, but they got ahead of the answers. When people adopt unemotional, logical thinking, people will take the logical side. Thus, promoting unemotional, logical thinking includes appealing to people’s reason. Different arguments and interpretations should be considered, weighed and advanced.

If I am discussing the interpretation of a verse, then when I say something claimed by the Qur’an, it’s me saying the Qur’an says it. It is not a contradiction.

Minhajism is not a religion. “Minhajism” is simply a name I tagged to something that already happens. It is a marker so I can differentiate and then “harness” the ideas. It is compatible with atheism and spiritualists (religions being manifestations of spirituality which became attached). People must know the evidence, and use logic.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/sweets/5447/2

[sum]

Hello MesMorial

You seem to like logic. The logic regarding crucifixion is very simple. You either accept crucifixion as a punishment in some circumstances or you reject it outright. Your replies regarding this matter are always designed to "muddy the water" rather than being clear and definite.

Please tell me if you reject crucifixion outright in all circumstances or whether you think that it should remain as a punishment in some circumstances.

sum

[ringmaster]

To change something, we must change the way we see it.

.........................

So you are trying to rewrite the koran. It's hilarious.

[peterpin]

Well, rewriting it is a lot better than trying to defend it.

Still, Mes, if you are serious about writing a religious text, don't start with the quran as base. Start with a clean sheet.

The quran sets up a really warped relationship between the divine and man, and seriously distorts understanding of humanity as well as completely misrepresents what could be the divine being.

There really big questions don't get addressed in the quran at all.

It is because of the quran that I hold that Islam cannot be reformed.

I am beginning to see where you are... you are sort of disillusioned with Islam, but you are still hold on to elements of it. You kind of have left, but you keep a foot in the door, just in case. Well, you need both your feet to walk.

If I may make a suggestion, perhaps read around a bit on Buddhism. It is more of a philosophy than a religion, and most of it is compatible with any religion (less so with Islam, perhaps), or even none. They do approach the big questions in life; you may not like all the answers they pose, but they provide lots of seeds for thought. Zen is amazing if you have the patience for that.

It will appeal to your sense for logic and order, and give you ideas without forcing you one way or the other.

[sum]

Where is our logical MesMorial?

sum

[MesMorial]

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12543#p178099

There is nothing wrong with a deterrant. What Iffo misses is my point about fair consideration. There has to be a set threshold, decided by people. Thus the verse is not worth commenting on.

It is worth discussing.

Cheers.

[iffo]

http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12543#p178099

There is nothing wrong with a deterrant. What Iffo misses is my point about fair consideration. There has to be a set threshold, decided by people. Thus the verse is not worth commenting on.

It is worth discussing.

Cheers.

MM I am waiting for you on other thread and you been hiding here
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=12543#p178099