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Please present your excuses

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:26 pm
by Makeen
Hi

Can all non believers please comment on the following verse:

"18. Till, when they came to the valley of the ants, one of the ants said: "O ants! Enter your dwellings, lest Sulaiman (Solomon) and his hosts crush you, while they perceive not."

19. So he [Sulaiman (Solomon)] smiled, amused at her speech and said: "My Lord! Inspire and bestow upon me the power and ability that I may be grateful for Your Favours which You have bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may do righteous good deeds that will please You, and admit me by Your Mercy among Your righteous slaves.""
Quran 27 an-naml

Now, Ant colonies are home to three different kinds of ant family members. Each colony has a queen. A queen is a large female ant who spends her life laying eggs. There also are a few males with wings called drones. There are thousands of workers, all of whom are female. Workers are very busy and active. Usually, worker ants are the only kind of ant you’ll see outside the colony.

Please enlighten me with your excuses.

How can the Quran which predates the latest scientific research on this topic know about this without divine origin? The Quran has identified the sex of the worker ant.

Re: Please present your excuses

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:48 pm
by Chiclets
You believe in a book that says ants talk and you actually want us to discuss this stupidity with you ?
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Re: Please present your excuses

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:49 pm
by Fernando
Sex? Choice of two only. They probably kept bees in those days and knew how such insect colonies worked, anyway. Compare with "go to the ant though sluggard, consider her ways and be wise" Proverbs 6:6, long before Mo (note the mention of Solomon, btw, which puts it in a Jewish perspective.)
Much more to the point is the ludicrous claim that the ants spoke and could be heard and understood. Never mind the divine knowledge about the sex of insects, feel the human rubbish about talking ants.

Re: Please present your excuses

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:09 pm
by Makeen
Chiclets wrote:You believe in a book that says ants talk and you actually want us to discuss this stupidity with you ?
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This is what I expected, you have no explanation. But I don't blame you, there is no way to deny it anyway.

Re: Please present your excuses

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:12 pm
by Makeen
Fernando wrote:Sex? Choice of two only. They probably kept bees in those days and knew how such insect colonies worked, anyway. Compare with "go to the ant though sluggard, consider her ways and be wise" Proverbs 6:6, long before Mo (note the mention of Solomon, btw, which puts it in a Jewish perspective.)
Much more to the point is the ludicrous claim that the ants spoke and could be heard and understood. Never mind the divine knowledge about the sex of insects, feel the human rubbish about talking ants.
So in simple terms, you have no explanation? Again, I don't blame you because there is no denial. This is black and white and concrete crystal clear. No non believer has come up with a reasonable way to explain this miracle. Because they can't.

So please continue presenting your excuses

Re: Please present your excuses

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:24 pm
by Fernando
Makeen wrote:So in simple terms, you have no explanation? Again, I don't blame you because there is no denial. This is black and white and concrete crystal clear. No non believer has come up with a reasonable way to explain this miracle. Because they can't.

So please continue presenting your excuses
No excuse needed, since there was no miracle. As for the explanation: it's just a fairy-tale. The Christian creationists have a list of claims which have been used in the past but are no longer recommended, because they are rubbish. Time the Muslim apologists had a list too, it seems.

Re: Please present your excuses

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:29 pm
by Makeen
Fernando wrote:
Makeen wrote:So in simple terms, you have no explanation? Again, I don't blame you because there is no denial. This is black and white and concrete crystal clear. No non believer has come up with a reasonable way to explain this miracle. Because they can't.

So please continue presenting your excuses
No excuse needed, since there was no miracle. As for the explanation: it's just a fairy-tale. The Christian creationists have a list of claims which have been used in the past but are no longer recommended, because they are rubbish. Time the Muslim apologists had a list too, it seems.
If there was no miracle then why did the Quran identify the sex of the worker ant 1400 years ago something only modern science has become aware of recently? Stop being evasive. Fairy tale? that's a nice excuse. Why is it a fairy tale? rubbish? All I see you do is say baseless assertions. Making claims but not refuting the topic at hand. Back up what you say with proof. Lets not waste time and get to the point of the topic.

I have mentioned the Quranic verse which states the sex of the worker ant. Is there anyone who can prove it as false? Yes? then talk

Re: Please present your excuses

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:32 pm
by Fernando
Makeen wrote:I have mentioned the Quranic verse which states the sex of the worker ant. Is there anyone who can prove it as false? Yes? then talk
Talk like the ant, perhaps? You have mentioned the Koranic verse which states that ants talk and can be heard by humans. Is there anyone who can prove it true?

Re: Please present your excuses

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:35 pm
by Makeen
Fernando wrote:
Makeen wrote:I have mentioned the Quranic verse which states the sex of the worker ant. Is there anyone who can prove it as false? Yes? then talk
Talk like the ant, perhaps? You have mentioned the Koranic verse which states that ants talk and can be heard by humans. Is there anyone who can prove it true?
I can start a new thread for that but I want to focus on the miracle of the identification of the sex of the worker ant. Lets not go off topic now. In my years of stay on this earth, not a single soul have I come across that has been able to present a reasonable argument against the miracle of the identification of the sex of the worker ant verse.

Re: Please present your excuses

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:00 pm
by Fernando
Meanwhile, study the bee though sluggard and consider Aristotle's ways
Aristotle on Honey Bees

from “History of Animals in ten books
"Their size is double that of the worker bees. By some they are called the mother bee, as if they were the parents of the rest; and they argue, that unless the ruler is present, drones only are produced and no bees. Others affirm that they have sexual intercourse, and that the drones are males, and the bees females.

From Book V chapters 18 and 19
http://www.beeclass.com/dts/aristotle_on_bees.htm
Since you may not wish to know about Islam's debt to the ancient Greeks, I should perhaps point out that Aristotle lived 384 BC – 322 BC. So he was talking about the sex of insects nearly a thousand years before your Koran.

Re: Please present your excuses

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 4:56 pm
by Fernando
Just a little bit more food for thought, Makeen:
Anthropomorphised ants have often been used in fables and children's stories to represent industriousness and cooperative effort. They are also mentioned in religious texts.[158][159] In the Book of Proverbs in the Bible, ants are held up as a good example for humans for their hard work and cooperation. Aesop did the same in his fable The Ant and the Grasshopper. In the Quran, Sulayman (Arabic: سليمان‎) is said to have heard and understood an ant warning other ants to return home to avoid being accidentally crushed by Sulayman and his marching army.[Quran 27:18][160] In parts of Africa, ants are considered to be the messengers of the gods. Some Native American mythology, such as the Hopi mythology, considers ants as the very first animals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ant

Re: Please present your excuses

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 5:40 pm
by Fernando
And another thing: how do we know that it was a female ant, rather than ants generally having the female (linguistic) gender, as they do in French, Spanish, Italian, German, Latin, Greek and Hebrew? Arabic has gender for nouns but none of the online dictionaries seems to show them.

Re: Please present your excuses

Posted: Thu Apr 19, 2012 6:27 pm
by Fernando
And now we have this, Makeen - it's a Jewish folk tale!
I wrote about one of Solomon’s Arabian Nights-style adventures found in Louis Ginzbuerg’s endlessly entertaining,seven-volume Legends of the Jews on Monday, and before I put the books back on the shelf for a while, I want to share one more. This one, however, which comes under the heading “Lessons in Humility,” reads more like a cross between Aesop’s Fables and T. H. White’s The Once and Future King:

On one occasion, he strayed into the valley of the ants in the course of his wanderings. He heard one ant order all the others to withdraw,to avoid being crushed by the armies of Solomon. The king halted and summoned the ant that had spoken. She told him that she was the queen of the ants, and she gave her reasons for the order of withdrawal. [my emphasis]
So how did Mohammed know that the ant was female? Because she told Solomon she was the queen ant! (In the fairy story of course, not in real life)
Edit: sorry, forgot link: http://ivebeenreadinglately.blogspot.co ... d-ant.html

Re: Please present your excuses

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:02 am
by skynightblaze
@makeen

How is this a miracle if quran merely used a word ( naml -a generic feminine arabic word for ants) that was available in arabic language? This word did not come to us via the quran. This word "naml" already existed before the quran was written so if it is really a miracle then the credit goes to the arabs who invented this word and not quran. Quran merely used a word that was already available for ants. Now tell me how many words does the arabic language have for ants??? This is important because if the only word available for ant is "naml" then anyone who used this word before the latest scientific discoveries can claim that he is a prophet.

Secondly even in your quote, you say that USUALLY worker ants are seen outside the colony . You do not say that it is always the case and therefore it means that there can be even male ants outside the colony on certain occasions so how can you claim it as a miracle??? A miracle has to be absolutely convincing and it should be 100% accurate and therefore even if there is a slightest doubt it is no miracle.

Now even for the sake of argument we assume that what you say is true it still does not mean quran is from God. In your analysis you do not consider the errors in the quran for e.g Zul-Qarnain reaching the setting place of the sun. there is no such thing called as setting place of the sun. This is a clear cut error in the quran. Consider another erroneous claim of quran that every living creature exists in pairs. There are certain species of lizards that have male and female in a single individual so there are not pairs and hence the quran is in error. Now do the analysis..

We see there are atleast 2 errors (actually I can point 100;s of them) in the quran. 1 error is sufficient to disqualify quran as a word of God so if quran got the gender of female ants correctly then it is no more than a fluke because it got other things wrong which means it does not have divine origin. So your analysis of the quran ignores the erroneous parts of the quran and therefore you end up drawing incorrect conclusions.

Re: Please present your excuses

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:03 am
by antineoETC
Makeen. The force of your argument carries all before it. The talking ant is of course a reference to the fact that ants do indeed communicate - ie "talk" - to each other both with their antennae and, more significantly, with sound that, until the advent of modern microphone technology, was too quiet to be heard by the unaided human ear.

I am convinced. The Qur'an is indeed a miracle from heaven. ALLAHU AKBAR! ALLAHU AKBAR!

Re: Please present your excuses

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 2:46 pm
by ringmaster
skynightblaze wrote:[............................... 1 error is sufficient to disqualify quran as a word of God ..........................

Like the sperm coming from between the backbone & the ribs????

Re: Please present your excuses

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:50 pm
by Fernando
ringmaster wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:[............................... 1 error is sufficient to disqualify quran as a word of God ..........................

Like the sperm coming from between the backbone & the ribs????
Or the existence of jinn?
How many errors will it need to convince the average Muslim, though?

Re: Please present your excuses

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:00 pm
by skynightblaze
ringmaster wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:[............................... 1 error is sufficient to disqualify quran as a word of God ..........................

Like the sperm coming from between the backbone & the ribs????
What you said is just one of the samples.


Anyway i would just like to correct the following sentences in my previous post ..
skynightblaze wrote: Now tell me how many words does the arabic language have for ants??? This is important because if the only word available for ant is "naml" then anyone who used this word before the latest scientific discoveries can claim that he is a prophet.
Ideally the above part that I wrote is unnecessary and illogical too. Even if there were many words for ants in arabic it still cannot be a miracle if anyone uses the word naml to describe the female ant .You have a word in a language and you use it. That's it!. You cant attribute miracles to someone for merely using the available vocabulary.

I think Naml is the only word to describe ant in arabic but I could be wrong because I am not arabic literate. If there is only a single word to describe ant then this claim becomes even more stupid because there was no other way the author could have expressed other than using the word naml and hence it cannot be a miracle.

Either way i.e whether naml is the only word or there are other words (masculine) describing ant, claiming this as a miracle is big joke as proven above.

Re: Please present your excuses

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 9:58 pm
by Brendalee
Why does the all-knowing Allah think that ants live in individual holes like some apartment complex underground? They live in a colony all together. Why does the Quran say "homes" (plural)?

How does a human HEAR an ant speaking? How does he know it is speaking? Does it speak a HUMAN language? Does the human think the ant must be female because it is small and has a high squeaky voice?

And there was NO separate Arabic word for a MALE ant. Ant is a female gender. Same for bees. No miracle at all.

Re: Please present your excuses

Posted: Fri Apr 20, 2012 10:27 pm
by iffo
    Another desperate attempt to show a Miracle in a dumb book, it has nothing but page after page of nonsense.
    Like it has been said ants are referred as female in many languages including Hindi and Urdu.

    If I am going to be talking about ant in Urdu I will also use 'her'.
    Same goes for sparrow and cat and lizard etc list goes on.

    Sorry no miracle