Do the Koran only people consider the following?

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sum
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Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by sum »

The "Koran only" people reject the ahadith and rely solely upon the Koran for Islamic guidance. Do they ever consider the letters sent out by Muhammad and Umar to the kings and rulers of neighbouring countries inviting them to embrace Islam or suffer the consequences if they reject the invitation?

There are original letters in museums and so must be regarded as being in a different category to the ahadith where there are no originals to inspect.

Did Muhammad and the Caliphs at the beginning of Islam misunderstand Islam or are the aggressive threats and actions by Muhammad the correct Islam to be followed by all muslims for all time? These actions by Muhammad and Caliphs show that Islam was aggressive and took the conflict to nations that were peaceful and in no way threatening the muslims. However, Islam would consider them to be waging war against Allah if the invitation was rejected and so the muslims were obliged to defend Allah and Islam by waging a "defensive" war.

sum
Jimi
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Re: Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by Jimi »

The Koran only people are simply trying to ditch the horrible conclutions a free thinking person must take after reading the hadiths. But the stench of Islam is imbodied in the Quran too. One can't get away from the stench if involved in anything Islamic.
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MesMorial
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Re: Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by MesMorial »

Do you mean these letters?

http://www.slideshare.net/zakir2012/the ... ond-arabia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is actually nothing of what you say within them.


"Qur'an-only" Muslims reject the static authority of medieval Arabian culture and its context.
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sum
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Re: Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by sum »

Hello MesMorial

I am not 100% sure of what you are getting at in your post. Would you kindly expand on what you presented so that I can understand your stance on this matter?

sum
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pr126
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Re: Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by pr126 »

My question is, on what authority some Muslims reject the hadits?
What is the opinion of the ulema or Al Ahzar University?
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MesMorial
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Re: Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by MesMorial »

sum wrote:Hello MesMorial

I am not 100% sure of what you are getting at in your post. Would you kindly expand on what you presented so that I can understand your stance on this matter?

sum
Can you please specify the aggression in the letters?
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MesMorial
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Re: Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by MesMorial »

pr126 wrote:My question is, on what authority some Muslims reject the hadits?
What is the opinion of the ulema or Al Ahzar University?
Of the Qur'an. It is very simple.

Now a lot of scholars agreeing otherwise is according to them the result of one person (Muhammad). I can say their error was the result of another person. Appealing to authority is no argument.
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pr126
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Re: Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by pr126 »

Which is my contention, that any religious person, of whatever religion, makes up his own version, picks and choses (or makes up) whatever suits him / her.
You believe that Allah is in charge.
Not at all, you are in charge, and Allah has no choice but to agree with your ideas. (and incidentally, Muhammad's)
If you reject the hadits, so does your Allah. Or as you see it, the Quran.
Simple as that. You have decided what it should be. Allah has no say in the matter.


Man, since the beginning of his continuousness made up his own gods, and these gods had to comply with Man's wishes, desires and ideas.
Many thousands of those long dead gods were as real to those people as your Allah is to you is today.
But when those people died, or stopped worshiping them, their gods died too, and left only mythologies and fables.
It could very well happen in the future with your Allah too.
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Re: Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by sum »

Hello MesMorial

You made no mentiom of Umar. Have you any comment to make?

Are you saying that there are no threats in Muhammad`s letters?

sum
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Re: Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by iffo »

The whole idea of saying accept Islam or pay jaziya or we will attack you is
Retarted and criminal. No muslim can justify this criminal act.
The 4 caliphs were simply following muhammad who did the same to his neighboring tribes .

Why the intelligent god expects that rulers of other countries will just believe muhammad to
Be prophet on the bases of letter is beyond me. If I were the ruler I would reject him too .
Last edited by iffo on Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by yeezevee »

iffo wrote:The whole idea of saying accept Islam or pay jaziya or we will attack you is
Retarted and criminal. No muslim can justify this criminal act.
The 4 caliphs were simply following muhammad who did the same to his neighboring tribes .

Why the intelligent god except that rulers of other countries will just believe muhammad to
Be prophet on the bases of letter is beyond me. If I were the ruler I would reject him too .
009.029: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

if you live in an Islamic country you better follow the orders of Quran..
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MesMorial
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Re: Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by MesMorial »

pr126 wrote:Which is my contention, that any religious person, of whatever religion, makes up his own version, picks and choses (or makes up) whatever suits him / her.
You believe that Allah is in charge.
Not at all, you are in charge, and Allah has no choice but to agree with your ideas. (and incidentally, Muhammad's)
If you reject the hadits, so does your Allah. Or as you see it, the Quran.
Simple as that. You have decided what it should be. Allah has no say in the matter.


Man, since the beginning of his continuousness made up his own gods, and these gods had to comply with Man's wishes, desires and ideas.
Many thousands of those long dead gods were as real to those people as your Allah is to you is today.
But when those people died, or stopped worshiping them, their gods died too, and left only mythologies and fables.
It could very well happen in the future with your Allah too.
I did not mention anything about picking from the Qur'an. I said using it.
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MesMorial
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Re: Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by MesMorial »

I notice people who do not join the Christian-evangelist bandwagon are called Muslims. I must write a column on it.
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Re: Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by MesMorial »

yeezevee wrote:
iffo wrote:The whole idea of saying accept Islam or pay jaziya or we will attack you is
Retarted and criminal. No muslim can justify this criminal act.
The 4 caliphs were simply following muhammad who did the same to his neighboring tribes .

Why the intelligent god except that rulers of other countries will just believe muhammad to
Be prophet on the bases of letter is beyond me. If I were the ruler I would reject him too .
009.029: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

if you live in an Islamic country you better follow the orders of Quran..
I see the logic still has not sunk in.
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MesMorial
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Re: Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by MesMorial »

sum wrote:Hello MesMorial

You made no mentiom of Umar. Have you any comment to make?

Are you saying that there are no threats in Muhammad`s letters?

sum
As I said I read those letters and found nothing of what you say. The closest I came was the requirement of some people to pay jizya AFTER their king had agreed to be Muslim.
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Re: Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by iffo »

MesMorial wrote:
sum wrote:Hello MesMorial

You made no mentiom of Umar. Have you any comment to make?

Are you saying that there are no threats in Muhammad`s letters?

sum
As I said I read those letters and found nothing of what you say. The closest I came was the requirement of some people to pay jizya AFTER their king had agreed to be Muslim.
It is a threatening letter to the ruler. It will be considered threat if USA sends a letter to KIng of Saudia Arabia saying you will be safe if you leave Islam and become christian and anyone in your country who do not leave Islam collect tax from him/her and give it to us.

Off course King most likely will refuse this stupid deal, meaning confrontation with USA. That is a solid proof that Islam is not from god, because even a 5 years old has enough common sense to know noone will change his religion like this neither will pay this bully tax.
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Re: Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by yeezevee »

MesMorial wrote:
yeezevee wrote:
iffo wrote:
Spoiler! :
The whole idea of saying accept Islam or pay jaziya or we will attack you is
Retarted and criminal. No muslim can justify this criminal act.
The 4 caliphs were simply following muhammad who did the same to his neighboring tribes .

Why the intelligent god except that rulers of other countries will just believe muhammad to
Be prophet on the bases of letter is beyond me. If I were the ruler I would reject him too .
009.029: Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Messenger have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

if you live in an Islamic country you better follow the orders of Quran..
I see the logic still has not sunk in.
Nope., Your logic will not sink-in in FFI. But I would agree that at present it is a better way to challenge Muslims openly in Public in so-called Islamic countries using your Quran only logic with a suggestion burn ALL HADITH program dear MesMorial. And Yes.. i do see that some of your posts have useful logic in 21st century for 21st century humanity than what I see in any verse of Quran.. i



Indeed intellectual honesty with in ourselves will guard against the stupidity and advance our understanding of some of age old questions smart people are asking for as long as Human race came int o the existence..
Last edited by yeezevee on Sun Jan 29, 2012 11:52 am, edited 2 times in total.
sum
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Re: Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by sum »

Hello MesMorial

Muhammad most certainly threatened Kings and rulers. To refresh your memory, please scroll down to letter 8, the last in the list of letters in your link. This is a very clear threat and is Muhammad showing to the world how Islam was spread. The other letters were a little more inclined to display a veiled threat. I think that it is of interest to read the expression - "Remember we are muslims". Threats and aggression are clearly part of Islam as practiced by Muhammad and therefore the example for muslims for all time.

One has to ask if Muhammad was acting exactly as the Koran dictated. If he did then aggression is part of Islam and if he did not then even he did not understand the Koran. I suggest that he acted as the Koran - his own handbook - dictated and the following Caliphs agreed with Muhammad and so followed his example.

I do not see how Koran-only muslims can ignore these letters. They have more credibility than the Koran being a divine revelation.

sum
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Re: Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by yeezevee »

sum wrote:Hello MesMorial

......

I do not see how Koran-only muslims can ignore these letters. They have more credibility than the Koran being a divine revelation.

sum
off course Quran only Muslims can ignore those letters., Those letters may be part of Islam but they are NOT a part of Quran.



well he may be Christian apologist but he is telling some historical facts..
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Re: Do the Koran only people consider the following?

Post by skynightblaze »

Yeezevee wrote:off course Quran only Muslims can ignore those letters., Those letters may be part of Islam but they are NOT a part of Quran.
Except that is not called objective approach because if these letters are preserved in the musuem they are important documents to understand Muhammad and islam. IF Muhammad was a criminal the credibility of the quran reduces to zero. Now Is quran worth following so that we move our focus towards quran alone approach??? I am asking you this because you wrote the following..
Yeezevee wrote: But I would agree that at present it is a better to challenge Muslims openly in Public in Islamic countries using your Quran only logic with a suggestion burn ALL HADITH program dear MesMorial
For this approach to work quran needs to be a good book but it isnt and therefore I reject such an approach.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
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