Hadith Timelines

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
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sum
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by sum »

Hello MesMorial

It is abundantly clear that you do not wish to put your cards on the table. If your evasive comments are not clear to me they will not be clear to anyone else.

Why are you afraid to be clear and explain your position on Muhammad and whether Muhammad received revelations to create the Koran and whether the Koran is actually the word of a god in whom you believe?

What you are asking the forum is for someone to give their own "tafsir" on what you have been saying. This would be most interesting as you have not been clear at any time.

Come on, MesMorial, answer my questions.

sum

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marduk
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by marduk »

Mes; Again, Muhammad did not give the Qur'an and say: "Accept this because I'm good". The Qur'an says to accept it based on one's opinion of its content (not Muhammad's reputation).
That's the problem, isn't it. Our opinion of the contents of the Quran is that it is a book whose only purpose is to try to have people believe that the true god of the universe is as crude as an idol, demanding worship. How insulting. I don't know what this "Allah" is, but it sure isn't the god of the universe, because I'm pretty sure that the real Creator is not of such crude mentality that it actually gets off on being worshiped like an idol. The Arabs, and the Jews, are well known to have been idol worshipers for the majority of their history. That's why their conception of God is so crude and similar to their conception of the idols. The Quran is nothing more than a written record of the crude religious ideas of the Arabs and other groups of the region in those days. Of course, now we just laugh at the things we read in the Quran, having developed far beyond the mentality of a 7th century Arab. Oh look, Mildred, Arabs thought God was like an idol that you bow down to, silly Arabs, hahahahahaha! Oh great divinity, we honor you as the force of goodness. Never shall we bow or supplicate to you, because that would be degrading to you. We believe in you because we want to, not because you threaten us with torture. We know that you, the real God, would not be so brutal as a human. We pity those who think you are like an idol. Forgive them for their imbecility, oh real God, for they have poor breeding.

Keep worshiping your invisible idol, Allah, MesMorial. If you bow in the direction of its idol house maybe it will reward you with virgins, hahahahahaha!

darth
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by darth »

MesMorial wrote: Reciting a nursery rhyme to children is actually teaching it.
What I quoted is not a nursery rhyme and its meaning cannot be deciphered from mere recitation.
If you want to call the quran a nursery rhyme, be my guest. But it is a nonsensical nursery rhyme whose mere "recitation" will not give the meaning.
See what you, cat and your teacher (probably that idiot bahgat) are trying to do? You are trying to give explanations (teach/interpret) because the mere recitations were not enough. If mere recitation had been enough why the need for all these mental gymnastics?
MesMorial wrote: Muhammad was a teacher of the Qur‘an because he delivered it. Reciting is teaching.
Nonsense. I could also recite the quran. But that would not make me a"teacher". Any dimwit in pakistan can recite the quran without ever understanding it. They are all not "teachers"
MesMorial wrote: Well yes he taught the Qur’an just like muslims are supposed to (3:79).
Yes, if he "taught" either by words or example, then his teachings, example, explanations, interpretations as recorded by contemporaries are necessary and cannot be discarded.
MesMorial wrote: Fortunately they are superior.
If you want to fool yourself, be my guest. However, there are some basic flaws in your arguments -
a) You depend upon the quran to validate itself. (Logical fallacy if ever there was one)
b) You accept that the quran is the word of god and start from that unproven premise.
c) You depend upon some real spin of arabic words to push your "interpretations".
MesMorial wrote: Yes but Muhammad did not say “accept this because I say so”. He said accept it on its terms. However, ahadith are accepted on reliability of humans.

Cheers.
No, mo did not say accept the quran on its terms (whatever that means). He said "quran is the word of God. Accept it ". In other words, mo means "I say quran is word of god. So accept it" or "accept this because I say so". No proof or evidence is offered. No test is conducted to validate his claims either.

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The Cat
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by The Cat »

darth wrote:See what you, cat and your teacher (probably that idiot bahgat) are trying to do? You are trying to give explanations (teach/interpret) because the mere recitations were not enough..... if he "taught" either by words or example, then his teachings, example, explanations, interpretations as recorded by contemporaries are necessary and cannot be discarded.
Why would anyone follow the sunna of Muhammad when he himself followed their own sunna (old custom)? That wasn't NEW!

What do you think that Muhammad had -practically- to do? Teach the implementation of the many NEW rulings from the Koran.
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

So why do people convert to Islam?

Here’s why:

I make a thread saying that Muhammad is not His Messenger. The Qur’an says he is His Messenger.

Sum has trouble making a conclusion.


I explain to Marduk why ahadith are not a part of religion. So Marduk tells me to worship an invisible idol called Allah.

Darth (Sidious?) also comes to the wrong conclusion, and fails to offer any substance against what has already been said to him.
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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

What I quoted is not a nursery rhyme and its meaning cannot be deciphered from mere recitation.
If you want to call the quran a nursery rhyme, be my guest. But it is a nonsensical nursery rhyme whose mere "recitation" will not give the meaning.
See what you, cat and your teacher (probably that idiot bahgat) are trying to do? You are trying to give explanations (teach/interpret) because the mere recitations were not enough. If mere recitation had been enough why the need for all these mental gymnastics?
Once again, studying the Qur’an and bringing Qur’anic verses together to explain its rulings is teaching it. This involves reciting verses.
Nonsense. I could also recite the quran. But that would not make me a"teacher". Any dimwit in pakistan can recite the quran without ever understanding it. They are all not "teachers"
Well if the audience were listening, they would be being taught. Moreover, if the reciter were reciting verses to support points, this is once again teaching it.
Yes, if he "taught" either by words or example, then his teachings, example, explanations, interpretations as recorded by contemporaries are necessary and cannot be discarded.
Well teaching the book means teaching the book. In 3:79, teaching is coupled with “studying” it, meaning teaching is based on what is in the book, not ahadith.
c) You depend upon some real spin of arabic words to push your "interpretations".
Real logic. You rely upon puff pastry.
No, mo did not say accept the quran on its terms (whatever that means). He said "quran is the word of God. Accept it ". In other words, mo means "I say quran is word of god. So accept it" or "accept this because I say so". No proof or evidence is offered. No test is conducted to validate his claims either.
The attitude of the Qur’an is that even if Barry said it rather than Muhammad, they should still judge it by its content (e.g. 3:79 and 3:144).
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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

@ The Cat;

It is like trying to teach stubborn dopes.
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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

Here is another sugar-puff for Darth:


"He it is Who raised among the inhabitants of Mecca an Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His communications and purifies them, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, although they were before certainly in clear error." (62:2)


So we have the same expression, except the last part of 2:151 ("and teaches them what they do not know") is expressed here as the correcting attribute of Muhammad's job. As I stated before, there were several functions performed by one duty. One was purification, one was enlightenment etc..
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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

Please note: Someone who does not share the same cowboy-antics is not necessarily muslim.

Cheers.
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darth
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by darth »

The Cat wrote: Why would anyone follow the sunna of Muhammad when he himself followed their own sunna (old custom)? That wasn't NEW!
This is a claim that arises from your need to believe the quran and discard the hadiths. People did not follow mo because he followed old customs or new customs but because he claimed to be prophet . What is supported by records (not fantasies ) is this - the sunna of mo (backed by his allah alter ego in the quran) is
a) old tribal customs where it suited him - such as inheritance
+
b)new customs where it suited him such as cancelling adoption and legalizing marriage with adopted children's spouses.
The Cat wrote: What do you think that Muhammad had -practically- to do? Teach the implementation of the many NEW rulings from the Koran.
Yes, for example, in the verse with zaid's wife, mo had to have a quranic verse to allow him to marry zaid's wife, but then he also had to teach with a practical implementation of said plan
The quran itself states clearly that this practical case was to teach people that it is okay to marry adopted children's spouse :roflmao:
So let us end all this nonsense about mo only reciting verses - no he taught with explanations as well as living example

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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

So let us end all this nonsense about mo only reciting verses - no he taught with explanations as well as living example
Could you please provide some proof before making bold statements. If anybody has a need here it is your need for sunna.

People did not actually need a demonstration of how to marry Zaid’s wife. The verse says Muhammad was allowed to so that others would not feel bad about marrying the wives of their adopted sons.

Your example is invalid.
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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

This is a claim that arises from your need to believe the quran and discard the hadiths. People did not follow mo because he followed old customs or new customs but because he claimed to be prophet . What is supported by records (not fantasies ) is this - the sunna of mo (backed by his allah alter ego in the quran) is
a) old tribal customs where it suited him - such as inheritance
+
b)new customs where it suited him such as cancelling adoption and legalizing marriage with adopted children's spouses.
Well actually the Qur'an says he only followed the Qur'an, and because he was the one who brought it and knew it first, people had to follow what he followed (i.e. follow him).

If Muhammad did not adhere to the Qur'an, they were not expected to follow him.

So once again your statement is a fallacy.
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The Cat
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by The Cat »

darth wrote: People did not follow mo because he followed old customs or new customs but because he claimed to be prophet
Prophet or not, he was a guy abiding to the sunna of his own time. His was theirs.
darth wrote: he taught with explanations as well as living example
There were many NEW injunctions he had to implement like, for example, the dietary rulings, marriages, divorces, fasting, and so on.

2.151: Even as We have sent unto you a messenger from among you, who reciteth unto you Our revelations
and causeth you to grow, and teacheth you the Scripture and wisdom, and teacheth you that which ye knew not.


He clearly wasn't there to teach them how to feed camels (etc)... The man wasn't anything new, nor the prophet.
In 46.9 he doesn't state that following him will assure paradise: He doesn't even know what will happen to himself!

46.9: Say: I am no new thing among the messengers (of Allah), nor know I what will be done with me or with you.
I do but follow that which is inspired in me, and I am but a plain warner.
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

darth
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by darth »

MesMorial wrote:
People did not actually need a demonstration of how to marry Zaid’s wife. The verse says Muhammad was allowed to so that others would not feel bad about marrying the wives of their adopted sons.

Your example is invalid.
The verse says -

"Then when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her, with the necessary (formality), We joined her in marriage to thee: in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the Believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them"

You can spin it any which way you want
It is self evident from this verse that this action of mo was to be used as a guide in the future for people who wanted to marry the wives of their adopted son. In other words, the quran points to an action external to its contents, from life of mo as a guidance. Clear case of being taught by mo's example.

(And let us stop this nonsense of mo just bringing back what other prophets taught. I do not know any prophet that married the wife of their adopted sons before mo)
MesMorial wrote: Well actually the Qur'an says he only followed the Qur'an, and because he was the one who brought it and knew it first, people had to follow what he followed (i.e. follow him).

If Muhammad did not adhere to the Qur'an, they were not expected to follow him.

So once again your statement is a fallacy.
Which exact statement of mine is a fallacy? My statement -
mo's sunna = old tribal customs that suited mo + new customs that suited mo
The rantings pertaining to the law may be in the quran in a clear manner or obscure manner. Mo's actions/explanations merely makes clear those of the ranting that are unclear, capish? Following him means following what he taught as well as his example. I believe most of his actions (those classified as authentic) can be easily shown to adhere to the quran as well.

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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

The verse says -

"Then when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her, with the necessary (formality), We joined her in marriage to thee: in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the Believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them"

You can spin it any which way you want
It is self evident from this verse that this action of mo was to be used as a guide in the future for people who wanted to marry the wives of their adopted son. In other words, the quran points to an action external to its contents, from life of mo as a guidance. Clear case of being taught by mo's example.
Well the word for “difficulty” is better translated as “blame” or “discomfort”. Please think before you type.

33:37-38 highlights the importance of avoiding prohibitions not in the Qur’an. Marrying the wife of an adopted son was never prohibited, and even though people knew that, they still felt uncomfortable doing it. Thus according to the Qur'an, Allah was actively easing the Muslims into acceptance of a "taboo".

That was the actual point of the exercise. The marriage was supposed to happen for a reason unrelated to "explaining" the Qur'an. Muhammad, as the most important, would have provided the most encouragement by "piloting" the "trend".
Which exact statement of mine is a fallacy? My statement -
mo's sunna = old tribal customs that suited mo + new customs that suited mo
The rantings pertaining to the law may be in the quran in a clear manner or obscure manner. Mo's actions/explanations merely makes clear those of the ranting that are unclear, capish? Following him means following what he taught as well as his example. I believe most of his actions (those classified as authentic) can be easily shown to adhere to the quran as well.
Well everything you say here is a fallacy, but I will clarify:

The “new sunna” is actually in the Qur’an. It also includes old things already practiced such as marriage besides new things such as fasting in Ramadhan.

Following him means following his way of life. Please provide some evidence to support your stubborn, arrogant rejection of reason and proof.

If the ahadith match the Qur’an, you will explain how. You will then explain why they are obligatory (in that manner).

Cheers.
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sum
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by sum »

Hello MesMorial

You really are a runner, aren`t you? You continuously refuse to answer my simple questions in order to clarify your position. Not only that but there is an element of arrogance and condescension creeping in to your replies.

Please answer my questions -

Do you believe that Allah exists?
Do you believe that the Koran is the true word of Allah?
Do you believe that Muhammad received the alleged revelations?
Do you believe that we all stand before Allah on Judgement Day?

These are very simple questions the answers to which need only a one word reply.

sum

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skynightblaze
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by skynightblaze »

Mesmorial wrote:Darth (Sidious?) also comes to the wrong conclusion, and fails to offer any substance against what has already been said to him.
Your argument is anything but not sensible. I am still surprised that you are still pursuing the argument and yet at the same time accusing others of not having any substance. You certainly are not that stupid to understand What Darth has been saying. You are degrading yourself to the level of CAT who by now has established his reputation as one of the greatest non muslim (hopefully) trolls on this forum.
Last edited by skynightblaze on Sat Nov 19, 2011 12:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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SAM
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by SAM »

sum wrote:Hello MesMorial

You really are a runner, aren`t you? You continuously refuse to answer my simple questions in order to clarify your position. Not only that but there is an element of arrogance and condescension creeping in to your replies.

Please answer my questions -

Do you believe that Allah exists?
Do you believe that the Koran is the true word of Allah?
Do you believe that Muhammad received the alleged revelations?
Do you believe that we all stand before Allah on Judgement Day?

These are very simple questions the answers to which need only a one word reply.

sum
Why do you keep repeating the same old crap questions over and over again.. .. :roflmao:
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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pr126
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by pr126 »

SAM wrote:
sum wrote:Hello MesMorial

You really are a runner, aren`t you? You continuously refuse to answer my simple questions in order to clarify your position. Not only that but there is an element of arrogance and condescension creeping in to your replies.

Please answer my questions -

Do you believe that Allah exists?
Do you believe that the Koran is the true word of Allah?
Do you believe that Muhammad received the alleged revelations?
Do you believe that we all stand before Allah on Judgement Day?

These are very simple questions the answers to which need only a one word reply.

sum
Why do you keep repeating the same old crap questions over and over again.. .. :roflmao:
Answering a question with another question is evasion.
Islam: an idea to kill and die for.

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SAM
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by SAM »

pr126 wrote:
SAM wrote:
sum wrote:Hello MesMorial

You really are a runner, aren`t you? You continuously refuse to answer my simple questions in order to clarify your position. Not only that but there is an element of arrogance and condescension creeping in to your replies.

Please answer my questions -

Do you believe that Allah exists?
Do you believe that the Koran is the true word of Allah?
Do you believe that Muhammad received the alleged revelations?
Do you believe that we all stand before Allah on Judgement Day?

These are very simple questions the answers to which need only a one word reply.

sum
Why do you keep repeating the same old crap questions over and over again.. .. :roflmao:
Answering a question with another question is evasion.
So you can answer the questions clearly, without evasion. If yes.. , I ask you one question.. Who's real God?.... There is NO God except Allah....
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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