Hadith Timelines

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

@ Everyone;

The wisdom that the Qur'an refers to is in the Qur'an, not necessarily in the ahadith.


@ skynightblaze;

My arguments are superior to what you use to support your claim. That's all.

After all, the Qur'an is an interlocking hadith-prevention manual. :roll:

Cheers.
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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

charleslemartel wrote:
MesMorial wrote: Wisdom is in the Qur’an, not necessarily in men’s ahadith.
Since I haven't read most of your posts, may I ask you if you mean to say that the Quran is from God, and not from a man or men?
I was just emphasising the fact that the Qur'an is the only scripture which claims to cut out the mortal middle-man, meaning by all definitions it is the only legitimate source of religion.

Please visit my thread "Progressive Souls (Essay)" in the "Religion and God" section of this forum.

Ahadith have no philosophical basis, and the philosophy of Religion itself is enough to dispose of Sunnism (with or without Qur'an).

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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

Idesigner wrote:
charleslemartel wrote:
MesMorial wrote: Wisdom is in the Qur’an, not necessarily in men’s ahadith.
Since I haven't read most of your posts, may I ask you if you mean to say that the Quran is from God, and not from a man or men?

Dear Mesmemorial,

What has made you to think there is no wisdom in Hadith. Hadiths are full of wisdom and it portrays Islamic belief system of Mohemmeds life time. . All those customs, superstitions, cruelty, unscientific belief system etc was there in that society. Nothing to feel ashamed about.Koran chanting Arabs were no Newtons or Einsteins. So manythings I found in Hadiths which confirms Koranic verses.Especially the Jew hatred is common theme of Koran as well as Hadiths.

Id.
It is philosophically untenable for somebody to confirm something "stronger" (Qur'an) with something weaker (ahadith).

More importantly, there are many things in the Qur'an which cancel the Sunni culture that is "Islam" today.

Just to remind, as a non-Muslim I do not care if the Qur'an is palatable or not. The fact of most importance is that the Qur'an forbids ahadith and functions in and of itself (as "religion"). With this cutting psychological weapon against Sunnis, people may still (in the meantime) criticise the Qur'an.

Cheers.
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darth
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by darth »

MesMorial wrote:Reciting is teaching, because listening is learning.
It is not. For example, if I were to recite "miles to go before I sleep and miles to go before I sleep", it will not reveal the meaning of the verse. Same way, simply listening to my recitation is not "learning" the meaning of the verse unless it is explained/taught to me.

MesMorial wrote: The recited words are in the Qur'an, and the teachings are in the Qur'an. If Muhammad taught anything, it obviously came from "God" in the first place so the point does not actually go anywhere.
Not so obviously. There is no proof that it came from god and plenty of proof that it was mo's mental rantings. But that is irrelevant. 2.151 clearly talks about allah's communication distinct from mo's teachings. If allah's communication are the verses of the quran, then it is not mo's teachings. Thus by this verse it is imperative that you look at other sources for mo's teachings. Were mo's teachings recorded? Were his teachings in the form of his own life example recorded somewhere. Thus, if quran is the "recitation", then hadiths containing the "teachings" cannot be discarded.

MesMorial wrote: You have provided no evidence to support that he "makes clear" anything.
Well, he should have at least taught something according to the quran.

skynightblaze wrote: YOu have taken CAT as your scholar and he makes the same arguments and thats why you are repeating his stupid arguments.
Now I understand why his sort of arguments seemed so familiar :whistling:

MesMorial wrote:
I was just emphasising the fact that the Qur'an is the only scripture which claims to cut out the mortal middle-man, meaning by all definitions it is the only legitimate source of religion.on itself is enough to dispose of Sunnism (with or without Qur'an).

.
Actually quran cannot survive wirthout the middle men (messengers).

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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

It is not. For example, if I were to recite "miles to go before I sleep and miles to go before I sleep", it will not reveal the meaning of the verse. Same way, simply listening to my recitation is not "learning" the meaning of the verse unless it is explained/taught to me.
Reciting a nursery rhyme to children is actually teaching it.
Not so obviously. There is no proof that it came from god and plenty of proof that it was mo's mental rantings. But that is irrelevant. 2.151 clearly talks about allah's communication distinct from mo's teachings. If allah's communication are the verses of the quran, then it is not mo's teachings. Thus by this verse it is imperative that you look at other sources for mo's teachings. Were mo's teachings recorded? Were his teachings in the form of his own life example recorded somewhere. Thus, if quran is the "recitation", then hadiths containing the "teachings" cannot be discarded.
Well you must have missed the “”.



Muhammad was a teacher of the Qur‘an because he delivered it. Reciting is teaching.
Well, he should have at least taught something according to the quran.
Well yes he taught the Qur’an just like muslims are supposed to (3:79).
Now I understand why his sort of arguments seemed so familiar
Fortunately they are superior.
Actually quran cannot survive wirthout the middle men (messengers).
Yes but Muhammad did not say “accept this because I say so”. He said accept it on its terms. However, ahadith are accepted on reliability of humans.

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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

To dismiss your Old World fossilised argument:


"And certainly We know that they say: Only a mortal teaches him." (16:103)


Reciting is teaching.
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sum
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by sum »

Hello MesMorial

As I asked earlier, if Muhammad was not a messenger how did the Koran come into existance? What is the relationship between the Koran and Muhammad?

Your previous reply was vague and left me not knowing exactly what you meant. Please clarify your views and answer my questions.

sum

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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

sum wrote:Hello MesMorial

As I asked earlier, if Muhammad was not a messenger how did the Koran come into existance? What is the relationship between the Koran and Muhammad?

Your previous reply was vague and left me not knowing exactly what you meant. Please clarify your views and answer my questions.

sum
I reckon you could answer it yourself by asking yourself what you mean by "messenger".

I only look at what the Qur'an says.

Cheers.
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marduk
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by marduk »

MesMorial;
MesMorial; I was just emphasising the fact that the Qur'an is the only scripture which claims to cut out the mortal middle-man
So Muhammad was a robot? ALL scriptures have come through a human middleman. That's why NONE of them are valid. When God announces his religion from the sky, or makes a completed book appear out of nowhere in front of numerous witnesses and on camera, I will be the first to sign up. Until then, no thanks, I don't feel like following the words of other mere humans. I can make up as good or better fairy tales than them, especially Muhammad. A flying horse? Puh-lease. A 5 year old could make up a better story. Opening up his chest and washing his heart? Umayya could make up a better story than that. He would have it be "enchanted beings" who did the operation, not Gabriel. Gabriel doesn't do the heart washings. That would be beneath him. Do Muslims think Gabriel is a mere heart washer? Give me a break. They have enchanted beings for jobs like that.

sum
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by sum »

Hello MesMorial

It`s not my understanding of the word "messenger" that matters - it is yours. You are being deliberately vague and not making yourself clear at all.

I would like to know your position on the origin of the Koran if Muhammad was not involved. Was Muhammad involved? If he was not, where did the Koran come from?

You keep on about Sunni Islam but do not mention the other sects. Are your views on Shia Islam the same as those on Sunni Islam.

Do you regard the Koran as Allah`s words?

sum

Idesigner
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by Idesigner »

MesMorial; I was just emphasising the fact that the Qur'an is the only scripture which claims to cut out the mortal middle-man
Notice the word claim. Muslims claim , Mohemmed claimed that middle man is cut out.

What about Gibreel? He was middle non human. Angels are often known to fail and sin and Allah had killed many of them by missiles.What prevented Allah from directly communicating with Mohemmed.

Mohemmed was middle man and was pretty mortal, unscrupelous, greedy, with all human faults.

Only way the issue can be settled if Allah comes and shows us that original copy on TV or chants on air. He can announce in advance and we all will listen to him. :D

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Sanitarium
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by Sanitarium »

To those Muslim's who say they don't accept the ahadith, is that your same opinion regarding the ahadith Qudsi?

Also, if possible, I would love a Muslim to clarify to me (without quoting from the Quran to support your argument) why you can accept Quran even though it was passed from person to person, even though you don't accept the ahadith, which was also passed from person to person? The reason I don't want you to quote the Quran is because I'd like to be convinced that the Quran was passed somehow more reliably than ahadith - especially those narrations which are classifed as Sahih and mutwatir. By that I mean I am very interested to learn what your perceived difference is between accepting one and rejecting the other.

Thank you!

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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

marduk wrote:MesMorial;
MesMorial; I was just emphasising the fact that the Qur'an is the only scripture which claims to cut out the mortal middle-man
So Muhammad was a robot? ALL scriptures have come through a human middleman. That's why NONE of them are valid. When God announces his religion from the sky, or makes a completed book appear out of nowhere in front of numerous witnesses and on camera, I will be the first to sign up. Until then, no thanks, I don't feel like following the words of other mere humans. I can make up as good or better fairy tales than them, especially Muhammad. A flying horse? Puh-lease. A 5 year old could make up a better story. Opening up his chest and washing his heart? Umayya could make up a better story than that. He would have it be "enchanted beings" who did the operation, not Gabriel. Gabriel doesn't do the heart washings. That would be beneath him. Do Muslims think Gabriel is a mere heart washer? Give me a break. They have enchanted beings for jobs like that.
Again, Muhammad did not give the Qur'an and say: "Accept this because I'm good". The Qur'an says to accept it based on one's opinion of its content (not Muhammad's reputation).

Ahadith are considered on human reliability.

Thus technically the Qur'an cuts out the middle-man by cutting out reliance on him.
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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

sum wrote:Hello MesMorial

It`s not my understanding of the word "messenger" that matters - it is yours. You are being deliberately vague and not making yourself clear at all.

I would like to know your position on the origin of the Koran if Muhammad was not involved. Was Muhammad involved? If he was not, where did the Koran come from?

You keep on about Sunni Islam but do not mention the other sects. Are your views on Shia Islam the same as those on Sunni Islam.

Do you regard the Koran as Allah`s words?

sum
Was Muhammad a messenger? Again, I think that you can answer it yourself.
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

Idesigner wrote:
MesMorial; I was just emphasising the fact that the Qur'an is the only scripture which claims to cut out the mortal middle-man
Notice the word claim. Muslims claim , Mohemmed claimed that middle man is cut out.

What about Gibreel? He was middle non human. Angels are often known to fail and sin and Allah had killed many of them by missiles.What prevented Allah from directly communicating with Mohemmed.

Mohemmed was middle man and was pretty mortal, unscrupelous, greedy, with all human faults.

Only way the issue can be settled if Allah comes and shows us that original copy on TV or chants on air. He can announce in advance and we all will listen to him. :D
Where in the Qur'an do the angels sin?

Again, we are talking about what the Qur'an actually says.
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

Sanitarium wrote:To those Muslim's who say they don't accept the ahadith, is that your same opinion regarding the ahadith Qudsi?

Also, if possible, I would love a Muslim to clarify to me (without quoting from the Quran to support your argument) why you can accept Quran even though it was passed from person to person, even though you don't accept the ahadith, which was also passed from person to person? The reason I don't want you to quote the Quran is because I'd like to be convinced that the Quran was passed somehow more reliably than ahadith - especially those narrations which are classifed as Sahih and mutwatir. By that I mean I am very interested to learn what your perceived difference is between accepting one and rejecting the other.

Thank you!
I have been through over a hundred "mutawatir" ahadith (they are not actually mutawatir, just by wishful internet-opinion). Basically all of them are irrelevant or useless to practical application of Islam.

There are moon-splittings, magic rocks, ascensions to heaven. What is your opinion on them?

Hadith-qudsi are in no way supported by the Qur'an, or the criteria of belief which the Qur'an dictates. Thus once again their acceptance is based on reliability of men, and are irrelevant to practical application of Islam.

I am a koala when it comes to hadith-criticism primarily for the fact that they are not a part of "pure islam". The discrepancies between them and the Qur'an lead me to believe they had different histories, and indeed the Qur'an is actually much more internally consistent than ahadith literature. The Qur'an says it is fully-detailed, and lo and behold it seems to be.

Now if anyone claims that a hadith is part of Islam, they basically have to bring a Qur'anic verse with good evidence. Hadithism in general cannot and should not be considered seriously.

Qur'anic philosophy is consistent with religious philosophy (i.e. elimination of middle-men), however if it was not preserved accurately as it claims, it cannot be considered worth following-up. It is the responsibility of the "Qur'an-alone" muslim to "solve" such issues, not ours. It is a conundrum faced by "Qur'an-alone" muslims and hadith-following hypocrites alike, just one admits it.

Here is an article about mutawatir hadith and lack of certainty:

http://www.globalwebpost.com/farooqm/st ... adith.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Basically no "muslim" has an excuse to take ahadith as obligatory. Indeed, the arguments used to uphold them are inconsistent and can be traced to Shafi'i about 150 years AH.
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Ozes
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by Ozes »

MesMorial wrote:
sum wrote:Hello MesMorial

As I asked earlier, if Muhammad was not a messenger how did the Koran come into existance? What is the relationship between the Koran and Muhammad?

Your previous reply was vague and left me not knowing exactly what you meant. Please clarify your views and answer my questions.

sum
I reckon you could answer it yourself by asking yourself what you mean by "messenger".

I only look at what the Qur'an says.

Cheers.

Evasion is your primary debating tactic. Are you still " no longer a Muslim" or is that gag over by now?
~A God of mercy
Would never... inform His people war is simply a means of testing ones faith
Surah's:3:140, 3:142,3:166, 3:167, 9:16, 47:4

~.. shame compassion with the victims
Surah's:3:154, 8:17

~.. mock pacifism :
Surah's: 3:167, 47:20

~..disavow peaceful solutions:
Surah:3:156

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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

Ozes wrote:
MesMorial wrote:
sum wrote:Hello MesMorial

As I asked earlier, if Muhammad was not a messenger how did the Koran come into existance? What is the relationship between the Koran and Muhammad?

Your previous reply was vague and left me not knowing exactly what you meant. Please clarify your views and answer my questions.

sum
I reckon you could answer it yourself by asking yourself what you mean by "messenger".

I only look at what the Qur'an says.

Cheers.

Evasion is your primary debating tactic. Are you still " no longer a Muslim" or is that gag over by now?
Does the information fry your circuits.
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sum
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by sum »

Hello MesMorial

Why do you bother to come to the forum, make vague spurious comments and then refuse to clarify matters? Do you seriously expect me to guess what you are saying when it is far from clear? It seems that you just enjoy stringing people along rather than engaging in proper discussion or debate.

Please answer my questions.

sum

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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

sum wrote:Hello MesMorial

Why do you bother to come to the forum, make vague spurious comments and then refuse to clarify matters? Do you seriously expect me to guess what you are saying when it is far from clear? It seems that you just enjoy stringing people along rather than engaging in proper discussion or debate.

Please answer my questions.

sum
Perhaps somebody else can piece together my very direct statements and clarifications, and answer sum.
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