Hadith Timelines

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
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The Cat
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by The Cat »

darth wrote:You could have known a woman for months (or years), but start having inappropriate (lustful) thoughts quite suddenly.
Not with a 'hot' woman by definition.
darth wrote:Immersing oneself into God and all that sh!t is a mental projection
Have a look at Muslims successful early campaigns and tell me more...
darth wrote:Show jibril in this verse or acknowledge that you are simply throwing some sh!t
Tell me again how Jibril isn't a messenger, the link between all Koranic messengers whom should be obeyed equally because of that.
There can't be any valid 'obey the messenger' without Jibril's sanction in the equation...

2.97: Say (O Muhammad, to mankind): Who is an enemy to Gabriel! For he it is who hath revealed (this Scripture)
to thy heart by Allah's leave, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, and a guidance and glad tidings to believers.


Clearly, the Allah-Jibril-Human chain can't be broken in parts when talking about messengers/revelations.
The guidance is that of the Koran through Jibril. Nothing to do with the so-called 'sunna' of Muhammad.
darth wrote:Quran gave mo extra rights whether you like it or not.
And those are defined, thus limited, and not to be followed.
darth wrote:33.53 is talking specifically to men who linger and converse with mo's wives.
Read again, this is far from being the case:
--''If ye are invited, enter, and, when your meal is ended, then disperse. Linger not for conversation.
--That would cause annoyance to the Prophet, and he would be shy of (asking) you (to go)''.


The next sentence states that women must only be addressed from behind a curtain when talked to.
They aren't as available for conversation as Muhammad. Thus the first two sentences apply to him.

So they do forbid conversation reports, as indiscretions, like in the yellow-paper hadiths...
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

Idesigner
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by Idesigner »

-
-''If ye are invited, enter, and, when your meal is ended, then disperse. Linger not for conversation.
--That would cause annoyance to the Prophet, and he would be shy of (asking) you (to go)''.
1. Why guests staying bit longer and wanting conversation with Mohemmed, other guests and wives ( ofcourse through Burkha) annoys prophet. If I had invited guests on some auspiceous occasions I will insists my guests to linger on as long as they can. I will excuse them if they have to leave after meal if they had good reason. I thought Mohmmed was good Arab and noble host his Allah wont reval such a goofy sura.

2. Why prophet is shy in this matter? Any good hosts sometime had to tell his guests to leave after dinner if that guest has important business to look after. Ofcourse I had guests and after the meal I had big hard on and want to screw some young beauty whom i knew few hours ago, sure I wont be able to tell the guest to leave. I will be prett shy too :drool:

3. The whole subject matter of this sura falls under category of good vs bad manners. Even the most primitive cave man to refined Greek culture figured out what was proper and what was improper, what is good manner vs what is bad manner. Only Mohemmed sought help from Allah to advise dumber desert bandits how to behave in Prophet's Manhattan apartment. :D He could have told them when he gave vsermon in the mosque.

4. The whole sura is proof positive that it cant be from Allah.Mohemmed made it up so that he can legally rape newly abducted Kaffir or jews women after a communal meal and very short conversation. Sure Allah is wise, all forgiving and he knows what is that loaded hard on inside Mohemmed's ijar doing. :heh: Many ex muslims like Abu Kasem had quoted this particular sura as fabrication of Mohemmed to suit particular situation as the Mohemmed had lots of marriages and lots of goat curry parties to celebrate. Old prophet had no energy to engage in conversations. He had to to have quicky with some captured jewess and go to bed.Ofcourse he cant tell his followers that he has no ebergy to enjoy party. He wwas awkward man without any sense of humor. He only knew how to threaten and can get his job done.Allah was nearby and always there to help.

darth
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by darth »

MesMorial wrote: Muhammad's conduct was considered potentially erroneous in 53:2.
By whom? When? That is not what 53.2 says.
MesMorial wrote: It was not the fact that Muhammad was talking that made the others call him mad...it was what he was saying.
:roflmao: Yes, it was what he was saying. Nobody ever is considered mad because they talk. It is what they talk about the determines their sanity.

Let us try again your usual approach. Take one of the verses talking about his madness, say 52.29. Read the verses prior to that in order. He is talking about paradise, people reclining on thrones surrounded by beautiful companions etc. Note that I am not using the context from external texts. Using your approach I will say people heard all this stuff and decided that mo was a madman because only a madman will talk about paradise gardens in this manner.
Let us take 44.14 - here it is clear that people do not believe that he got his message from angels. They think he was taught by a human being and is a madman for claiming angels and such. So the madness is not related to adherance to quran.

In fact, by claiming that mo's example is in his adherance to the quran (instead of cat's dishonest but easier approach of claiming that example is only in prayer), you are actually agreeing to our point that mo's example is important as per the quran and needs to be studied. You would like to think that this adherance is only related to believing in one god and associating no partners, but quran is a lot more. As you (or cat) claimed in another thread - it is the islamic constitution. In that case, mo's life study as pertains to how he followed this "constitution" is paramount. So a study of mo's actions is necessary (as per quran). End of story (again).

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skynightblaze
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by skynightblaze »

Hello Darth,
This charlatan CAT is lying here basically because he is interested in promoting quran here for which he needs to get rid of those ahadith depicting Muhammad as a filthy pervert.Since this con man would do anything to cover up Muhammad's crimes here is something that destroys his argument that Muhamamad never lusted after Zainab..

John of Damascus wrote:As has been related, this Muhammad wrote many ridiculous books, to each one of which he set a title. For example, there is the book On Women, in which he plainly makes legal provision for taking four wives and, if possible, a thousand concubines – as many as one can maintain, besides the four wives. He also made it legal to put away whichever wife one might wish, and, should one wish so, take to oneself another in the same way. Muhammad had a friend named Zeid. This man had a beautiful wife with whom Muhammad fell in love. Once, when they were sitting together, Muhammad said: “Oh, by the way, God has commanded me to take your wife.”

The other answered: “You are an apostle. Do as God has told you and take my wife”. (John of Damascus. On Heresies 101).[223]
John of Damascus was born in 676 Ad and lived upto 749 AD which is even before any forgeries came into being as told by this con man .
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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skynightblaze
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by skynightblaze »

Darth wrote:In fact, by claiming that mo's example is in his adherance to the quran (instead of cat's dishonest but easier approach of claiming that example is only in prayer),
This charlatan is so stupid that he does not realize that even if muslims were to follow MO in prayer they need to know some details of Muhammad's life with regards to prayer . If one claims that any new entrepreneur should take Steve Jobs as an example with respect to business then one has to know the details as to how Jobs started his business and what difficulties he faced and how he overcame them etc etc otherwise merely claiming that he is an example is useless. Example is given to clarify things and hence detail explanations are required so even in this case we need to know some details as to how Mo prayed exactly i.e. positions, the ways of reciting etc etc
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

darth
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by darth »

The Cat wrote:Not with a 'hot' woman by definition.
Ok. I am not going on and on with this. I cannot help it if you do not have enough life experience to have experienced this. I have. Bottom line, you can be friends with a woman for months (or years) and just consider her a good friend and then there is this moment when you suddenly realize that this friend is "hot".
The Cat wrote: Have a look at Muslims successful early campaigns and tell me more...
They certainly did not immerse in god and all that sh!t. They immersed themselves in profit and conquest though
The Cat wrote:
darth wrote:Show jibril in this verse or acknowledge that you are simply throwing some sh!t
Tell me again how Jibril isn't a messenger, the link between all Koranic messengers whom should be obeyed equally because of that.
Again, I ask, show jibril in this verse. I do not want your explanations. Quran is clear, right? So let us leave the spin. Where is jibril here?
The Cat wrote: There can't be any valid 'obey the messenger' without Jibril's sanction in the equation...

2.97: Say (O Muhammad, to mankind): Who is an enemy to Gabriel! For he it is who hath revealed (this Scripture)
to thy heart by Allah's leave, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, and a guidance and glad tidings to believers.
Irrelevant. We are taking of 33.40. Here mo is called the seal of prophets. Where is gibril in this verse?
The Cat wrote:
darth wrote:Quran gave mo extra rights whether you like it or not.
And those are defined, thus limited, and not to be followed.
Glad to see you agree. So mo had extra privileges in addition to all the ones muslims had. Hence he could marry more than 4 etc.
The Cat wrote: The next sentence states that women must only be addressed from behind a curtain when talked to.
They aren't as available for conversation as Muhammad. Thus the first two sentences apply to him.

So they do forbid conversation reports, as indiscretions, like in the yellow-paper hadiths...
I don't know what you are smoking. The verse is clear and it is about mo and his wives. Nothing do with Tom, Dick or batty.
O Ye who believe! Enter not the dwellings of the Prophet for a meal without waiting for the proper time, unless permission be granted you. But if ye are invited, enter, and, when your meal is ended, then disperse. Linger not for conversation. Lo! that would cause annoyance to the Prophet, and he would be shy of (asking) you (to go); but Allah is not shy of the truth. And when ye ask of them (the wives of the Prophet) anything, ask it of them from behind a curtain. That is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not for you to cause annoyance to the messenger of Allah, nor that ye should ever marry his wives after him. Lo! that in Allah's sight would be an enormity.
skynightblaze wrote: Hello Darth,
This charlatan CAT is lying here basically because he is interested in promoting quran here for which he needs to get rid of those ahadith depicting Muhammad as a filthy pervert.Since this con man would do anything to cover up Muhammad's crimes here is something that destroys his argument that Muhamamad never lusted after Zainab..
Excellent reference for the future, sky. Thx. BTW, enjoying your exchange with cat and mes in the one-on-one

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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

Let us take 44.14 - here it is clear that people do not believe that he got his message from angels. They think he was taught by a human being and is a madman for claiming angels and such. So the madness is not related to adherance to quran.
Ignoring the fact that 68:4 has no relevance to ahadith even if you were correct…

If I say you have to pray to a God who takes you to paradise if you do such and such, then you will also consider me mad for following what was revealed. What was revealed and what he followed are the same (46:9), confirmed by 68:4.
As you (or cat) claimed in another thread - it is the islamic constitution. In that case, mo's life study as pertains to how he followed this "constitution" is paramount. So a study of mo's actions is necessary (as per quran). End of story (again).
Someone who follows the constitution will be a good example for those who believe in the Last Day and remember Allah, because the Qur’an tells the best way to do it. Besides, it was talking about his behaviour in war.

Cheers.


SNB:
cover up Muhammad's crimes here is something that destroys his argument that Muhamamad never lusted after Zainab..
It makes Qur’anic sense for him to have had feelings for Zainab.
This charlatan is so stupid that he does not realize that even if muslims were to follow MO in prayer they need to know some details of Muhammad's life with regards to prayer .
Unless the Qur’an detailed it, since the Qur’an never says to follow Muhammad in prayer. It says to pray. These days, if Muslims do not pray in a particular way, they will get called apostates. That is why it is basically the way it is.

Qur’an never says to “follow Muhammad”. Find that verse and then we can continue.
If one claims that any new entrepreneur should take Steve Jobs as an example with respect to business then one has to know the details as to how Jobs started his business and what difficulties he faced and how he overcame them etc etc otherwise merely claiming that he is an example is useless.
Except that statement in 33:21 pertains to behaviour in war (please see my note on 33:21; it has never actually been refuted). If I told you to follow Steve Jobs as an example of one who valued business ethics and innovation, it does not mean to imitate Steve Jobs.
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Idesigner
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by Idesigner »

O Ye who believe! Enter not the dwellings of the Prophet for a meal without waiting for the proper time, unless permission be granted you. But if ye are invited, enter, and, when your meal is ended, then disperse. Linger not for conversation. Lo! that would cause annoyance to the Prophet, and he would be shy of (asking) you (to go); but Allah is not shy of the truth. And when ye ask of them (the wives of the Prophet) anything, ask it of them from behind a curtain. That is purer for your hearts and for their hearts. And it is not for you to cause annoyance to the messenger of Allah, nor that ye should ever marry his wives after him. Lo! that in Allah's sight would be an enormity.
Dear Darth,

No muslim on this forum has answered my simple question.

Why in the world Allah need to convey this particlar message via Gibreel to Mohemmed and ultimately for benifit of believers about how faithful should behave in harem of Mohemmed? Mohemmed could have simply expressed his desire to his folloowers. Simple chestisement of uncouth Arabs would have solved the purpose.

This is instruction about how to behave in a party or benquet thrown by Mohemmed in his house.Mohemmed could have announce the time of banquet by telling Bilal to shout from roof top..

This sura is from chapter "Apartment' . It was revealed in Medina when prophet used to take new wives.hence mention of meals.Finger licking mutton. :drool:

When I argue with muslims I invariably mention this sura to convince them Koran cant be from god. They dont have any answer except its from Allah and it should be true although its reflect situational logic. They all know the true context , timing and reason behind this sura.

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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

Especially weird since Muhammad could have just used his sunna.

An astute Muslim (or non-Muslim) could justify it being in the Qur'an (using Qur'an).
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skynightblaze
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by skynightblaze »

Mesmorial wrote:
cover up Muhammad's crimes here is something that destroys his argument that Muhamamad never lusted after Zainab..
It makes Qur’anic sense for him to have had feelings for Zainab.
Excuse me quran is from Muhammad and not Allah. Now since you have declared yourself a non muslim you cannot say that quranic sense is separate from Muhammad . It is all about what Muhammad wants. That verse was because Muhammad lusted for Zainab.

Mesmorial wrote:
This charlatan is so stupid that he does not realize that even if muslims were to follow MO in prayer they need to know some details of Muhammad's life with regards to prayer .
Unless the Qur’an detailed it, since the Qur’an never says to follow Muhammad in prayer. It says to pray. These days, if Muslims do not pray in a particular way, they will get called apostates. That is why it is basically the way it is.
Tell that to CAT. That idiot is claiming that Quran is talking about following Muhammad in prayers. That argument is not mine. I merely went along with CAT's argument to show that it is still fallacious even if we assume that the verse is talking about following Muhammad with respect to prayers.
Mesmorial wrote: Qur’an never says to “follow Muhammad”. Find that verse and then we can continue.
Since you are a non muslim you have to agree that quran was written by Muhammad. If Muhammad never wanted people to follow him he would not have written the quran in the first place. Since quran is from Muhammad it is obvious he wanted people to follow him and Allah was his proxy.
Mesmorial wrote:
If one claims that any new entrepreneur should take Steve Jobs as an example with respect to business then one has to know the details as to how Jobs started his business and what difficulties he faced and how he overcame them etc etc otherwise merely claiming that he is an example is useless.
Except that statement in 33:21 pertains to behaviour in war (please see my note on 33:21; it has never actually been refuted). If I told you to follow Steve Jobs as an example of one who valued business ethics and innovation, it does not mean to imitate Steve Jobs.
Assuming that 33:21 is talking about war, how is it sufficient to be an example in that regard? I mean how does one follow example of Muhammad with respect to war? I need history to know what Muhammad exactly did in the wars otherwise what sense does it make to claim that he is an example? I understand nothing as to how he is an example.
What you are saying is that he is an example but the question is HOW?? We need to know details about the wars in which he participated for us to know.

Even in the example of Steve jobs I understand nothing if you just tell me that he is supposed to be followed with respect to innovation and business ethics. What ethics exactly should I consider so that I can learn from him? What innovation did Steve jobs do exactly so that I can understand or learn from his example ? You understand nothing unless you know how Steve Jobs practiced ethics or how he innovated.

You simply understand nothing if you merely claim someone as an example unless you substantiate.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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skynightblaze
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by skynightblaze »

Darth wrote:Excellent reference for the future, sky. Thx. BTW, enjoying your exchange with cat and mes in the one-on-one
The real enjoyment is to begin now :lol: when this con man is trapped. He himself quotes John of Damascus . Just see how he dances around the issue instead of admitting that he has been wrong.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

darth
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by darth »

MesMorial wrote: Ignoring the fact that 68:4 has no relevance to ahadith even if you were correct…
By pointing to mo as a great moral character, as well as stating the mo is a good example to follow in other verses, the quran is asking that mo's example be studied. We have to look at his example wherever we can find it.
MesMorial wrote: If I say you have to pray to a God who takes you to paradise if you do such and such, then you will also consider me mad for following what was revealed. What was revealed and what he followed are the same (46:9), confirmed by 68:4.
If you come and tell me to pray to god and paradise and such stuff and tell me that the angel gibril told you so, I will certainly call you mad, even if you were to claim you were not mad or if you were to claim that God spoke to you and told that you were not mad. But I would consider you mad merely on what you claim (voices in head, god speaking etc.) and would not need to wait for you to act out your fantasies before I called you mad.
MesMorial wrote:
Someone who follows the constitution will be a good example for those who believe in the Last Day and remember Allah, because the Qur’an tells the best way to do it. Besides, it was talking about his behaviour in war.
Then you still need to study his behavior in war (i.e.when fighting unbelievers) wherever it has been recorded.
But this fighting unbelievers is a very generic term in mo's world view. A believer *must*b obey allah & mo. A believer who disobeys allah & mo and does the opposite of what mo taught is a hypocrite or an unbeliever. So it becomes imperative for a muslim to make sure that his actions are in acord with what mo taught and for this mo's actions/life example/teachings as recorded is necessary.
IDesigner wrote: Why in the world Allah need to convey this particlar message via Gibreel to Mohemmed and ultimately for benifit of believers about how faithful should behave in harem of Mohemmed?
The simplest answer is probably the truest. mo needed a way to control his wives. Remember he was an old man with a very young harem surrounded by lusty bedouins. So allah needed to leave the management of the world and rush to his aid

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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

By pointing to mo as a great moral character, as well as stating the mo is a good example to follow in other verses, the quran is asking that mo's example be studied. We have to look at his example wherever we can find it.
33:21 was explained. 68:4 has also been explained.

Again, even if you were right about 68:4 not referring to the moral standard of the Qur’an (which it does), it does not refer to any ahadith. Quite obviously it refers to the Qur’an (for reasons explained).
If you come and tell me to pray to god and paradise and such stuff and tell me that the angel gibril told you so, I will certainly call you mad, even if you were to claim you were not mad or if you were to claim that God spoke to you and told that you were not mad. But I would consider you mad merely on what you claim (voices in head, god speaking etc.) and would not need to wait for you to act out your fantasies before I called you mad.
What e followed was what was revealed (46:9). Beliving (following) what was revealed is what is referred to in 68:4, because believing it means following it. The assurance that he is not mad is followed by an explanation in 68:4, thus his choice to adhere to what was revealed (46:9) is referred to.
Then you still need to study his behavior in war (i.e.when fighting unbelievers) wherever it has been recorded.
But this fighting unbelievers is a very generic term in mo's world view. A believer *must*b obey allah & mo. A believer who disobeys allah & mo and does the opposite of what mo taught is a hypocrite or an unbeliever. So it becomes imperative for a muslim to make sure that his actions are in acord with what mo taught and for this mo's actions/life example/teachings as recorded is necessary.
The statement about the good example does not refer to external sources, as irrefutably provide in 68:4-6. I do not know why you kick a dead horse (the interpretation you support). All examples are in the Qur’an (17:89), and the good example refers to behaviour opposite to the hypocrites.
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by Eagle »

skynightblaze wrote:here is something that destroys his argument that Muhamamad never lusted after Zainab
Go there and learn viewtopic.php?f=21&t=10875&start=20#p168081" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Eagle wrote:The person you're vaguely referring to was Zaynab, the Prophet's cousin, from a noble lineage who at first, the prophet arranged her to be united with Zayd ibn Haritha, a slave bought and freed by the prophet, and then adopted by him.
It was simply unthinkable at the time for such unions to happen between the daughters of the aristocracy and a slave even if he was freed. This was a radical step taken by the Prophet in order to bring down the sense of superiority the Arabs had over slaves, a process that had already started through the countless verses of the Quran speaking of dealing with slaves as one would deal with his own family. By persuading Zaynab and her family, the marriage did finally happen but it did not last as she would keep looking down upon Zayd, boasting of her lineage, she was hard to manage and live with, for a simple man. He complained many times to the Prophet and wanted to divorce her at one point but the prophet would keep telling him to be patient 33:37"And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favor and to whom you had shown a favor: Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah". But the situation did not improve and Zayd finally divorced her. At the time Arab custom viewed adopted children as blood children, which is against nature, and would pass onto them the adopter's genealogy and name, his investments with all the rights of the legitimate son including that of inheritance and the prohibition of marriage on grounds of consanguinity. This was the opportunity to erase these customs first through admonishment 33:4-5 and then through a practical example with the prophet's marriage proposal to Zaynab, the ex-wife of an adopted son. He was at first reluctant to make the proposal known publicly because of the pressure of society who viewed such relation as incestuous but at the end, the important thing was to bring to light what Allah intended to improve in this society 33:37"and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed. There is no harm in the Prophet doing that which Allah has ordained for him; such has been the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before". And the 3rd repercussion of this marriage was to lift the burden which society put upon divorced women who were degraded and often couldnt remarry. The degradation of divorced women is still present in the bible Matt5:31-32 and many societies throughout the world.

As an aside, the story of Zayd and Zainab as reported in some traditions is fantastically absurd and has been criticized by specialists in hadith. It's a fabricated story for multiple reasons, amongst them, Zaynab was the cousin of the Prophet, and it was the Prophet that arranged the wedding in the first place, and the Prophet knew her through familial relations going back to Mecca. The idea that he one day saw the 'beauty' of this woman is just so ridiculous by all intents and purposes, because he had seen 'her beauty' multiple times before. In fact, the Quran expressly contradicts the story-telling of the seera writers who collected it, simply by saying the Prophet was trying to tell Zayd to keep Zaynab as his wife and he was doing everything possible to prevent the marriage from breaking up. After he was ordained to marry her as a matter of moral reform meant at addressing the deeply ingrained social stigma of marrying the former wife of an adopted son, the Prophet feared the reaction of the people, thus the term "you feared the people, when you should have feared God." In fact, as Aisha is reported to have said, if any revelation were to be covered up by the Prophet, this would have been it.

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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by Idesigner »

Mohemmed could have married ex wife of his adopted son, biological son or any divorced woman.

For that examplary sacrifice :worthy: no need to receive any revealation from Allah.

No need to destroy institution of adopting orphans.

Or Allah could have sent revealation to marry Zenab to some young eligible Arab warrior. Many in Mohemmed's place who had seen this young cousin or perhaps distance niece as a daughter. So much intimacy would have turned him off from harboring any thought of marrying her. But I know Allah is very daughter frigginmg god. He forced prophet to marry 29 years old distance niece or cousin. Ofcourse Allah the Dallah or companion of fornicator knew what was inside dick of Mo. :D

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The Cat
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by The Cat »

skynightblaze wrote:Tell that to CAT. That idiot is claiming that Quran is talking about following Muhammad in prayers. That argument is not mine. I merely went along with CAT's argument to show that it is still fallacious even if we assume that the verse is talking about following Muhammad with respect to prayers.
You're being the final idiot. Where did I state that 33.21 says to follow Muhammad in prayer?
That's a -Darth- mistake which you've recorded as mine. So you keep misreading everything.

It says that he was a good example in ''looking forward unto Allah and remembering Him much''.
In Christian term he was being fortified by His spirit.

The word for prayer is Salaat in Arabic and isn't found at all in 33.21:
Laqad Kāna Lakum Fī Rasūli Allāhi 'Uswatun Ĥasanatun Liman Kāna
Yarjū Allāha Wa Al-Yawma Al-'Ākhira Wa Dhakara Allāha Kathīrāan
skynightblaze wrote: John of Damascus was born in 676 Ad and lived upto 749 AD which is even before any forgeries came into being as told by this con man .
John of Damascus. No problem. As a Christian he perceived polygamy and divorce as major sins, no real god could have commanded.
And Zaid was no 'friend' of Mamed but his adopted son. There lies a huge gap in his knowledge and... the Koranic reason to divorce.
skynightblaze wrote:The real enjoyment is to begin now
It didn't last long. Mine with you is never ending... :reading: :lotpot:
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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The Cat
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by The Cat »

darth wrote:by claiming that mo's example is in his adherance to the quran (instead of cat's dishonest but easier approach of claiming that example is only in prayer), you are actually agreeing to our point that mo's example is important as per the quran and needs to be studied.
You're the dishonest one. No surprise from someone who has proven himself to be an abject liar.

In 33.21 Muhammad is a good example in 'looking forward unto Allah and remembering Him much.'
I've said that he was 'immersed' within God, thus a good example. You've deceptively LIED AGAIN.
darth wrote:As you (or cat) claimed in another thread - it is the islamic constitution. In that case, mo's life study as pertains to how he followed this "constitution" is paramount. So a study of mo's actions is necessary (as per quran).
This is like stating that the American Constitution should be understood and amended only through Thomas Jefferson's life examples.
darth wrote:The verse is clear and it is about mo and his wives. Nothing do with Tom, Dick or batty.
Indeed. It's about Muhammad (in the first two sentences) and -then- his wifes. It asks for discretion in both case.
So 'Tom and Dick' were forbidden all those indiscretions likely find in the hadiths, especially Bukhari.
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

darth
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by darth »

MesMorial wrote:.
Again, even if you were right about 68:4 not referring to the moral standard of the Qur’an (which it does), it does not refer to any ahadith. Quite obviously it refers to the Qur’an (for reasons explained).
Currently, what we call "hadiths" are simply eyewitness accounts of the people who were contemporaries to mo. The chain of transmission has been recorded. Sometimes there are more than one independent accounts corroborating an incident. When quran points to the example of mo, we should look at the life of mo as recorded by contemporaries. Why do you think we should look only at the quran? That makes no sense.
MesMorial wrote: The statement about the good example does not refer to external sources, as irrefutably provide in 68:4-6. I do not know why you kick a dead horse (the interpretation you support). All examples are in the Qur’an (17:89), and the good example refers to behaviour opposite to the hypocrites.
No external source except what is pointed to by quran. Injeel, torah, mo's example are all pointed to by quran and recommended to be followed. Sorry, but there it is.

darth
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by darth »

The Cat wrote: You're the dishonest one. No surprise from someone who has proven himself to be an abject liar.
You have already shown yourself to be a dishonest, illogical idiot who needs to resort to ad hominems to supplicate idiotic counter arguments.
The Cat wrote: In 33.21 Muhammad is a good example in 'looking forward unto Allah and remembering Him much.'
I've said that he was 'immersed' within God, thus a good example. You've deceptively LIED AGAIN.
"Immersed in god", "prayer" - what is the difference, pray tell? And that is not what the verse says. All that the verse says is that by following mo's pattern and remembering allah you will have hope on the last day etc. It is left to speculation what example of mo is to be followed. Reading the verses prior to 33.21 we see that this could mean follow mo's example in fighting unbelievers, it could mean follow mo in every aspect that does not go against the quran, it could mean follow mo in lusting for your daughter in law, it could mean anything. The "so clear" book leaves this to imagination, does it not?
The Cat wrote: This is like stating that the American Constitution should be understood and amended only through Thomas Jefferson's life examples.
No, idiot! The proper simile would be - if the american constitution refers to Thomas Jefferson's example, then that example must be studied. Fortunately American constitution does not say such silly things. That is only the quran
The Cat wrote:.
So 'Tom and Dick' were forbidden all those indiscretions likely find in the hadiths, especially Bukhari.
Verse has nothing to do with hadiths and you know it. You can't twist every verse to fit whatever you decide it should fit. That *is* dishonest.
(BTW, quran does not really forbid hadiths. It simply sets itself on a higher plane from the hadiths.)

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skynightblaze
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by skynightblaze »

The Cat wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:Tell that to CAT. That idiot is claiming that Quran is talking about following Muhammad in prayers. That argument is not mine. I merely went along with CAT's argument to show that it is still fallacious even if we assume that the verse is talking about following Muhammad with respect to prayers.
You're being the final idiot. Where did I state that 33.21 says to follow Muhammad in prayer?
That's a -Darth- mistake which you've recorded as mine. So you keep misreading everything.

It says that he was a good example in ''looking forward unto Allah and remembering Him much''.
In Christian term he was being fortified by His spirit.

The word for prayer is Salaat in Arabic and isn't found at all in 33.21:
Laqad Kāna Lakum Fī Rasūli Allāhi 'Uswatun Ĥasanatun Liman Kāna
Yarjū Allāha Wa Al-Yawma Al-'Ākhira Wa Dhakara Allāha Kathīrāan
Darth has answered your appropriately however I will add one more point which I already explained to Mesmorial. Who wrote the quran? If your answer is Muhammad then you should stop repeating your rubbish that Muhammad never wanted people to follow him. If that was the case he would not have gone for writing the quran. The fact that this man was a liar ( you need to accept this if you claim you are a non muslim) and he wrote a book claiming that God wanted people do so and so , it means that Muhammad wanted people to follow him.

Btw what you said does not change the meaning at all. It still means that Muhammad is an example for entire mankind. The verse does not limit it by any means. Read the verse again and see whether you get it. My money is always on you not getting it.

33:21
Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.

The Cat wrote:
skynightblaze wrote: John of Damascus was born in 676 Ad and lived upto 749 AD which is even before any forgeries came into being as told by this con man .
John of Damascus. No problem. As a Christian he perceived polygamy and divorce as major sins, no real god could have commanded.
And Zaid was no 'friend' of Mamed but his adopted son. There lies a huge gap in his knowledge and... the Koranic reason to divorce.
John of Damascus did not have the idea who Zayd was but it does not mean that whatever he said about Muhammad falling in love with Zainab is invalid. That is also confirmed by islamic scriptures. You surely are an absolute moron if you believe that Muhammad did not lust after Zainab, The point is Muhammad got attracted sexually after seeing Zainab undressed and that filthy pervert chose to snatch his adopted son's wife. Being a man I know that getting attracted towards a beautiful woman is natural however acting on the attraction and stealing your son's wife is disgusting !

Now let me explain you some basic logic that even a kid of 1st standard would not need..


[033:037]

), We joined her in marriage to thee: in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the Believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them. And God's command must be fulfilled.


Who wrote the quran? The answer is Muhammad. I hope you agree with me that quran was written by Muhammad. So was it really Allah who joined Muhammad in marriage with Zainab??The answer is Muhammad himself joined and not Allah. It means that muhammad lied to us when he said that Allah joined Zainab to him in marriage and it was Allah who told him not to fear people. Now if you have got even an iota of brain , then think as to why would a man lie and claim that is God was the one who asked him to marry Zainab unless he had some hiding to do?

It is obvious that Muhammad would not be able to explain his filthy indecent act of stealing his poor son's wife and that is why needed God to intervene.

I cant believe I am explaining such basic logic to you but I guess you really are that intellectually deficient.You simply are not a non muslim if you believe that Muhammad was clean here and wanted to marry Zainab for noble reasons. Really it is pathetic and I am short of words to explain you what a poor soul you are!
The Cat wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:The real enjoyment is to begin now
It didn't last long. Mine with you is never ending... :reading: :lotpot:
You are absolutely correct that the fun did not last long. I really pity you now and feel sorry for you. It is a tragedy rather than fun now to know that you are such a poor thinker.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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