Hadith Timelines

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
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darth
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by darth »

MesMorial wrote: The reason they were joined was to break the taboo. Muhammad was also being taught, because his decisions were being disapproved of. Muhammad was also a student of this teaching, thus in no way can you say that his actions were the example. It was an active example staged with certain conditions, just like in 8:43. It was to influence, and Muhammad being compelled to do one thing is different from him simply explaining the Qu’ran.
Nonsense. We are only using the quranic verse and what it says . The verse is clear. "We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them"
Mo is not being taught here. He has already acted. He is not taught anything about marrying zainab in this verse. The only thing he is admonished about is that he should fear the people instead of allah. Whereas the believers are taught by his action/example that it is okay to marry daughters in law.
MesMorial wrote: Explaining the Qur’an is different, because it is not a compelled event. Zaid’s wife may not have agreed to the marriage had it not been a “preordained” event.
Let us see - Instead of giving a straight verse allowing marriage to adopted daughter in law, this allah finds it necessary to make mo have the hots for his daughter in law first and marry her, so that mo can understand this concept? Sounds logical to you? (You have to be a muslim to accept such rubbish. If you are a non muslim believer of God attributing such a verse to God seems blasphemous).
MesMorial wrote: Basically you say the Qur’an does not sufficiently convey the need to follow Muhammad’s “sunna”, so it needed some vague verse which still does not achieve its supposed motive.
I am not saying anything. I am simply pointing out what quran says - We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons
- The quran is the one that seems to indicate people are to be guided/encouraged to a particular action because of this action of mo.

As you know already there are other verses that ask you to look at mo as a guide, but you people try to twist it and say that it means only follow mo in the manner of his prayer. We say that is wrong when there are clearly other verses such as 33.37 where quran points to action of mo as the guide.
MesMorial wrote: There was never any need to say that people could marry the wives of their adopted sons, because it was never prohibited.
No, there was never a need to say that people could marry the wives of their adopted sons, because people never thought of doing it before (it was a taboo and prohibited). The need only arose when mo had the hots. There is no indication that someone else had approached mo with a ruling on this subject. No, people were quite happy treating their adopted daughter in law as their daughter.
MesMorial wrote: People already knew this prohibition wsa false, which is why there is no verse stating it before this.
Prove it. BTW, there was nothing wrong in that prohibition. For those pre islamic tribes, adopting children was noble.When adopting children, they treated the spouses of those children as their own children too. These were noble principles that were being following. There is nothing to indicate that these noble principles were given up before mo had the hots for zainab. There is nothing to indicate that before mo acted as he did with zainab, that he found anything wrong with this prohibition.
MesMorial wrote: He recited the verses, and an attribute of this mission was teaching people.
The correct way to put it is - his mission was - to recite the words and to teach people - which is what the quran says (and which you have been unable to disprove however much you twist the words)

MesMorial wrote: The prophets were not perfect, thus no Muslim would see this the way you want to. Your understanding leads to contradictions, and thus is invalid.
What way do I see? I see it exactly as told in the verse -

a) mo had the hots for zaid's wife
b) mo was afraid of the people's opinion in this matter
c) mo married zaid's wife
d) verse was produced legtimizing mo's action, absolving mo of all blame and declaring that allah was guiding mo's action in order to guide the believers in the future in this matter
MesMorial wrote: Thus Muhammad’s personal example is not to be followed, unless it follows the Qur’an alone.
Your theory has been refuted.
Sorry it has not. It is clearly seen that quran uses mo's example to guide/direct believers in another case. So all your mental gymnsatics is useless. Quran says what it says and from that we have the following conclusions (every one of which is supported by quran only) -
a) quran said mo recited the verses and taught (So you need to go to study those explanations/examples)
b) quran used mo's life as an active example to guide people and make things clear
- in some cases by clearly stating that mo's example is to be followed
- in some cases by clearly stating that mo's action are allowed only for mo (special prophetic privilege)
- in some cases by settling mo's inner conflicts (for example absolving him of his promise to hafsa of not going near maria the copt. In such cases allah makes it easy for him to break his promise and do his thing)
- Unless specifically stated other wise in the quran, believers are to be guided by mo's actions .

I am not going to continue on with this useless exercise. I have stated my case and you have given your spin. It is up to readers to make up their own mind.

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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by Idesigner »

Mesmorial
The reason they were joined was to break the taboo. Muhammad was also being taught, because his decisions were being disapproved of. Muhammad was also a student of this teaching, thus in no way can you say that his actions were the example. It was an active example staged with certain conditions, just like in 8:43. It was to influence, and Muhammad being compelled to do one thing is different from him simply explaining the Qu’ran.
Darth:Nonsense. We are only using the quranic verse and what it says . The verse is clear. "We married her to you in order that there not be upon the believers any discomfort concerning the wives of their adopted sons when they no longer have need of them"
Koran should be read in proper context. Subsequent verses mentions not only discomfort of believers but about absolving prophet of any sin of marrying adopted son's wife. Why adopted son wanted divorce? Looks like Allah made prophet's job easy and save him from committing adultry when he got that camel dick size hard on when he visited Zainab. Zainab 's boobs and vagina were visible when wind blew away her gawn. Sure Allah was merciful to prophet.

Allah here saw fit to destroy noble tradition of adoption and treating adopted sons wife like his own daughter. Poor Arabian Allah cant reveal a verse to Mohemmed to control his hard on and have pious though about young daughter in law. Instead he tells Mohemmed " I have made Zainab lawful to you. Why are you torturing yourself and going against wish of Allah to follow ridiculous pagan tradition of adoption and not screwing daughter in law. O Mohemmed you will go to hell if you dont marry Zainab. Sure Allah need to be praised he is the wisest and he knows best.We should not question his wisdom.

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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

We now ignore the death-throes of Darth’s 200th post, and move to the denouement.


***


And when you said to him to whom Allah had shown favour and to whom you had shown a favour: Keep your wife to yourself and be careful of (your duty to) Allah; and you concealed in your soul what Allah would bring to light, and you feared men, and Allah had a greater right that you should fear Him. But when Zaid had accomplished his want of her, We gave her to you as a wife, so that there should be no difficulty for the believers in respect of the wives of their adopted sons, when they have accomplished their want of them; and Allah's command shall be performed.” (33:37)


There is no harm in the Prophet doing that which Allah has ordained for him; such has been the course of Allah with respect to those who have gone before; and the command of Allah is a decree that is made absolute.” (33:38)


Those who deliver the messages of Allah and fear Him, and do not fear any one but Allah; and Allah is sufficient to take account.” (33:39)


Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.” (33:40)


33:37 admonishes Muhammad for fearing the people more than Allah.

Muhammad’s fear of the people’s opinion made him envisage a prohibition not in the Qur’an.

The women allowed to Muhammad were given in 33:50, and there was no prohibition on the wives of adopted sons.

33:37-40 details an active example where Allah admonished Muhammad, and used his mistake to remind people that they should not make prohibitions which are not in the Qur’an. This point is confirmed by 33:38.

The Qur’an is a Book of moral and spiritual guidance (e.g. 7:52, 17:9), similitudes/examples (e.g. 3:61, 17:89, 66:1-5), narratives (e.g. 12:3), parables (e.g. 14:24) and real-time Revelations (e.g. 9:5, 33:59). All of these attributes contribute to the guiding quality of its Message.

All Revelation permanent to its addresses is included (e.g. 33:50). Where required, context is provided by the Qur’an itself.

There are active examples where the Arabic Qur’an seizes upon relevant preordained events to make a point. An example is 8:43 where Allah made Muhammad dream something which gave him confidence (for the upcoming battle). This was so that the leader of the Muslims could inspire them.

33:37 was another such example, where Allah used Muhammad’s fear of people’s opinion (over Allah) to highlight how no-one can uphold prohibitions not in the Qur’an (i.e. not even their “boss”).

After all, if Muhammad feared marrying the wife of his adopted son, the other Muslims would too.

Muhammad married Zainab as Allah’s preordained example for the Muslims. 33:37 states that this was to break an old taboo so that other Muslims would not make the same mistake as Muhammad.

Muhammad was their leader, so if it could be seen that the most knowledgeable did something (compelled by Allah), then obviously Allah would allow them to marry the wives of their adopted sons.

Muhammad’s marriage to Zainab was a preordained event, and is not comparable to explaining/demonstrating the Qur’an except in terms of Allah reminding people (not Muhammad). Muhammad’s alleged explanations were not compelled events, for if he did not fulfil his mission, he would have been penalised.

Muhammad was under no threat of being punished for not marrying Zainab, since the marriage was preordained. Therefore there is no relationship between “sunna” and this episode.

Muhammad was not an exemplar in his personal choice; he was admonished for his attitude and compelled (used as a tool) to marry Zainab, thus demonstrating that Allah allowed it (not that Muhammad was to be followed).

There was no need to give a direct verse saying: “You may marry the wives of your adopted sons”. The Muslims already knew that the prohibition they were upholding was false, and this is proved by the fact that Muhammad was fearing the people’s opinions, not what Allah might think.

If he did not actually know that the prohibition was false, he could not have feared the people more than Allah.

The prohibition is self-evident since adopted sons are biologically not really sons, and their wives are thus completely unrelated (unless they are relatives).

33:39-40 confirm that the point of 33:37 was to remind people that they should only heed the Qur’an in matters of superstition, and that their prohibition was false because adopted sons are not really sons. The Muslims’ previous attitude was the result of a man-made institution, not reality.

The active example was more effective because people were not going to respond to a verse declaring: “You may marry the wives of your adopted sons”. Allah knew this because they were already upholding a false prohibition, therefore Allah deliberately made the Muslim leader “take the dive” and marry Zainab.

It was not compulsory to marry the wives of adopted sons, so to effectively break the psychological barrier, Allah caused it to happen.

Muhammad was also admonished for his presumptuous attitude in 80:1-10, where the already obvious principle of social equality was abandoned. Allah used Muhammad’s error to remind the other Muslims, just as they were reminded in 33:37-40.
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Idesigner
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by Idesigner »

Muhammad’s marriage to Zainab was a preordained event, and is not comparable to explaining/demonstrating the Qur’an except in terms of Allah reminding people (not Muhammad). Muhammad’s alleged explanations were not compelled events, for if he did not fulfil his mission, he would have been penalised.
I thought Zainab's first marriage to Mo's adopted slave son was preordianed. According to Mohemmed he saw her in heaven and lo verily behold Mo got ger married to his adopted son.

Now Allah again prordianed the marrige with Mohmmed. Your Allah seems to be pretty fickle minded idiot.He is a puppet of dumb Arabian bandit.

Tell me why Mo needed permission, preordained event and guidance from Allah when it came to matter of divorce and marriage. He was after all now a prophet for many years. This event with Zainab happned in Medina.. His Allah must have given him lots of wisdom when some moral issues arose. Or his Allah should have given him guidance in one shot. But Mohemmed always had revealations after the fact and without fail those revelations satisfied his lust.

I liked that revealation. Mohmmed is no ot father of your men. Of course he was father of Fatima and one more girl, ofcourse there was no revelations to screw them. :*)

But now Mo was allowed to screw any young , old or child daughter of any follower, cousin etc.I dont know what kind of god is this Allah?

Mesmemo's ;Muhammad was not an exemplar in his personal choice; he was admonished for his attitude and compelled (used as a tool) to marry Zainab, thus demonstrating that Allah allowed it (not that Muhammad was to be followed).

Do you know how stupid this sound. Dont you know that muslims now follow Mohemmed in this matter and they dont adopt children.

Allah compelled Mohemmed to marry Zainab? Tell me what kind of god will compel some one to marry his adopted son's daughter against his moral compunction. Mess Memo I thought you were pretty smart koran only guy. :cool:

God doesnot compel anyone to do anything against his moral judgement. God has given free will and choice to everyone. MessMemo did you ever think about what was choice of Zainab in this episode? Allah doesnot seem to care about Zainb. He cares about lust of his bandit prophet.

Now i am convinced why muslims are so dumb. They have strong belief in preordained philosophy. Allah can do anything and Allah can compel their prophet to do anything.

By the way when Allah is going to compel me to marry any beautiful 27 year old woman? Married, single, divorced? I am of Mohemmed's age. :drool:

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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

Tell me why Mo needed permission, preordained event and guidance from Allah when it came to matter of divorce and marriage.
'
There was no permission besides the preordainment to correct exisiting attitudes.

As for the rest, it is misdirected.

...
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by Idesigner »

MesMorial wrote:
Tell me why Mo needed permission, preordained event and guidance from Allah when it came to matter of divorce and marriage.
'
There was no permission besides the preordainment to correct exisiting attitudes.

As for the rest, it is misdirected.

...
Tell me why this preordainment occurred after Mohemmed was attracted by beauty of Zenab?

Why it didnot occur before or few years after this episode of Mohemmed visiting Zainab's sanctum sanctori?

What existing attitude of that Arab society need to be corrected?

Was there a big problem with adopted father in laws to marry (divorced? )daughter in law. Was there any discomfort about adopting orphans?

Which way Arab society benifited by this preordained revealation and subsequent action of Mohemmed?

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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

Idesigner wrote:
MesMorial wrote:
Tell me why Mo needed permission, preordained event and guidance from Allah when it came to matter of divorce and marriage.
'
There was no permission besides the preordainment to correct exisiting attitudes.

As for the rest, it is misdirected.

...
Tell me why this preordainment occurred after Mohemmed was attracted by beauty of Zenab?

Why it didnot occur before or few years after this episode of Mohemmed visiting Zainab's sanctum sanctori?

What existing attitude of that Arab society need to be corrected?

Was there a big problem with adopted father in laws to marry (divorced? )daughter in law. Was there any discomfort about adopting orphans?

Which way Arab society benifited by this preordained revealation and subsequent action of Mohemmed?
Why are you asking these questions?
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by Idesigner »

.
MesMemorial:Why are you asking these questions?
Why dont you give honest answers ?

All his revealations were fake and fradulent, all received to boost his power and sex trip. He convinced dumb arabs of his time that he is the prophet of Allah. Unfortunately Muslims still believe that all revelations were preordained and straight from Allah via Gibreel. Muslims have to live by each and every preordained word of Allah.

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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

Idesigner wrote:.
MesMemorial:Why are you asking these questions?
Why dont you give honest answers ?

All his revealations were fake and fradulent, all received to boost his power and sex trip. He convinced dumb arabs of his time that he is the prophet of Allah. Unfortunately Muslims still believe that all revelations were preordained and straight from Allah via Gibreel. Muslims have to live by each and every preordained word of Allah.
Mmmmmmm.
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darth
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by darth »

MesMorial wrote: The active example was more effective because people were not going to respond to a verse declaring: “You may marry the wives of your adopted sons”. Allah knew this because they were already upholding a false prohibition, therefore Allah deliberately made the Muslim leader “take the dive” and marry Zainab.
The rest of the post is the sort of gibberish that will only convince the brainless muslim ninny.

But the above comment is interesting. According to mes, basically allah knew that a direct verse from him would be ineffective. He needed something more effective - help from mo. Allah (and the quran) needed the active example to guide people because the direct verse from allah is powerless crap that allah himself knew would be ineffective.

Thanks, mes, for proving my point - mo's active example is needed by allah and the quran to guide people. :roflmao:

By the way, does quran specifically prohibit cannibalism. Because if it does not, you may consider it a false prohibition.....Just wondering.

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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

darth wrote:
MesMorial wrote: The active example was more effective because people were not going to respond to a verse declaring: “You may marry the wives of your adopted sons”. Allah knew this because they were already upholding a false prohibition, therefore Allah deliberately made the Muslim leader “take the dive” and marry Zainab.
The rest of the post is the sort of gibberish that will only convince the brainless muslim ninny.

But the above comment is interesting. According to mes, basically allah knew that a direct verse from him would be ineffective. He needed something more effective - help from mo. Allah (and the quran) needed the active example to guide people because the direct verse from allah is powerless crap that allah himself knew would be ineffective.

Thanks, mes, for proving my point - mo's active example is needed by allah and the quran to guide people. :roflmao:

By the way, does quran specifically prohibit cannibalism. Because if it does not, you may consider it a false prohibition.....Just wondering.
But the post is a thorough refutation of your theory.

Allah knew it since it had already happened. Hence the admonishment ... It was demonstrating that they should have referred such things to the Qur'an.

But humans are instructed to eat food. Therefore humans are not permitted to eat humans. People are instructed to eat the good things that are brought forth for them, and so human bodies are logically excluded.

Those are the kinds of arguments that the best scholars use :ermm: Blind hatred and automatons are no match for a brain.
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The Cat
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by The Cat »

--Muhammad could have married Zaynab prior to Zaid, had he 'the hots for her' as darth maintains...
--Koran made it as a law so that there would be ''no sin anymore in marrying wives of adopted sons''.

But there's a lot more into surah 33 inferring that Muhammad isn't an example to be followed:

--In 33.21, Muhammad is said exemplary ''for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much''.
It takes a wild and deviant interpretation to state it meant follow Bukhari, the hadiths and the sunna of Muhammad...

--In 33.40 he ain't the 'father' (aba) of any man, ie. not biologically nor as an exemplary leader implied with the word 'aba'.
He's the 'seal' of the prophets (NOT the last), ie corroborating them all. The 'seal' of the messengers belonging to Jibril.
There can be no valid 'Obey the messenger' without messages pertaining to Allah through Jibril. The line can't be broken.

--In 33.50 ''a privilege for thee only'' shows that he is far from being an example to be followed in all things.

--In 33.53 indiscretions concerning his personal life, such as reported in hadiths, are forbidden.
For psychological reasons Bukhari, in particular, was fond of lubricious reports, yet so forbidden...
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by darth »

The Cat wrote:--Muhammad could have married Zaynab prior to Zaid, had he 'the hots for her' as darth maintains...
Never lusted for any woman? My sympathies. Well, it can happen very suddenly. So yes, it is entirely possible that mo had the hots quite suddenly (after seeing her in a state of disrobe, perhaps)..
So one more nonsensical counter argument by cat
The Cat wrote: --Koran made it as a law so that there would be ''no sin anymore in marrying wives of adopted sons''.
There was no "sin". It was simply not done before because it was considered inappropriate. It only became a law after mo had the hots. Tell us, why did allah not pass this law before mo had the hots? Why was it so unimportant to allah before and suddenly became important after mo had the hots.
(Koran made it a law? What is the koran that it is going about making a law?)
Typical muslim rubbish. What are the facts here? Mo had the hots, mo was afraid, a verse is produced exonerating mo.
The Cat wrote: --In 33.21, Muhammad is said exemplary ''for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much''.
It takes a wild and deviant interpretation to state it meant follow Bukhari, the hadiths and the sunna of Muhammad...
You are the one jumping into the wild conclusion that this means only in prayer. The verse proclaims that mo is good example to follow for muslims who want allah and the last day and who remember allah. The verse does not say mo is a great example to follow in prayer. There are other verses like 68.4 that proclaims mo to be of great moral character. Why is he a great moral character if he is not to be followed? Quran points to all the moral characters in the world as the ones that muslims should not follow? :roflmao:

The Cat wrote: --In 33.40 he ain't the 'father' (aba) of any man, ie. not biologically nor as an exemplary leader implied with the word 'aba'.
He's the 'seal' of the prophets (NOT the last), ie corroborating them all. The 'seal' of the messengers belonging to Jibril.
There can be no valid 'Obey the messenger' without messages pertaining to Allah through Jibril. The line can't be broken.
"Seal of prophets" does mean "last of prophet"? What is this jibril etc. Those are not in the verse. The verse says "seal of prophets". No need for additions or explanations. Is the quran suddenly not clear in this verse and is in need of external explanations from prophet "the cat" now?
The Cat wrote: --In 33.50 ''a privilege for thee only'' shows that he is far from being an example to be followed in all things.
It shows that allah granted him special privileges over and above other muslims. But this allah also clears up things on what is specially granted to mo so that there is no confusion.

mo's rights = all muslim's rights + special grants to mo.

The Cat wrote: --In 33.53 indiscretions concerning his personal life, such as reported in hadiths, are forbidden.
For psychological reasons Bukhari in particularly is fond of lubricious reports, yet so forbidden...
33.53? 33.53 is a joke. Basically it shows an insecure mo needing special verses from allah to stop other men talking to his wives. 33.53 has nothing to do with forbidding any hadiths. Have you started hallucinating too now?

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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

You are the one jumping into the wild conclusion that this means only in prayer. The verse proclaims that mo is good example to follow for muslims who want allah and the last day and who remember allah.
33:18-20 describes the poor behaviour of hypocrites in a situation of conflict.

33:21 says a good example was set by the Messenger for those who hope in Allah and remember Him much.

33:22 describes the behaviour of true believers in the same situation.

33:23 contrasts Muslim behaviour to that of the hypocrites.

Therefore 33:21 refers to the good example of the Messenger in displaying courage and trust in Allah.

Demonstrating a good example for those who do a particular thing means setting a good example in doing that thing.

Precisely the same expression is used for Prophet Ibrahim (60:6) in another contextual situation (60:4-6).

60:6 does not mean we need ahadith of Prophet Ibrahim, thus 33:21 does not mean we need ahadith of Prophet Muhammad.

The “good example” comes from conduct conforming to the ideals detailed by the Qur’an.

For instance: Prophet Ibrahim’s behaviour (9:114, 11:69, 11:75, 19:42-48).
There are other verses like 68.4 that proclaims mo to be of great moral character. Why is he a great moral character if he is not to be followed?
Perhaps because he was following the Qur'an. His adherence to the Qur'an is equated with potential madness (44:14, 52:29, 53:2). This is the same in 68:2, therefore it refers to the Qur'an's morality (and his willingness to adhere to it).


***


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darth
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by darth »

MesMorial wrote: 33:18-20 describes the poor behaviour of hypocrites in a situation of conflict.

33:21 says a good example was set by the Messenger for those who hope in Allah and remember Him much.

33:22 describes the behaviour of true believers in the same situation.

33:23 contrasts Muslim behaviour to that of the hypocrites.

Therefore 33:21 refers to the good example of the Messenger in displaying courage and trust in Allah.
Glad to see you agreeing that 33.21 does not mean simply follow mo in prayer.
If you want to consider verses prior to 33.21, they talk about fighting in allah's cause. So this is not about courage, this is about fighting unbelievers. As per your line of reasoning, muslims are supposed to emulate mo in fighting non muslims.
MesMorial wrote: The “good example” comes from conduct conforming to the ideals detailed by the Qur’an.
This is simply your theory (read spin). Prove it. Show that this conduct pertains to the ideal detailed in the quran. Where does it state that?
MesMorial wrote: Perhaps because he was following the Qur'an. His adherence to the Qur'an is equated with potential madness (44:14, 52:29, 53:2). This is the same in 68:2, therefore it refers to the Qur'an's morality (and his willingness to adhere to it).
Poppycock! None of these verses state that he is following the quran. All these verses do is try to reassure mo that he is not a madman. I say this reassurance is because he was hearing voices. It had nothing to do with following or not following the quran. Stop spouting made up rubbish that is not in your quran. That does not do much for this "quran only" theory

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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

This is simply your theory (read spin). Prove it. Show that this conduct pertains to the ideal detailed in the quran. Where does it state that?
It was proved by my explanation, topped off by 60:4-6.

Maybe also remember that Muhamamd followed the Qur'an; the Qur'an tells people to believe in the Last Day and remember Allah, so his good example was following Qur'anic values.
Poppycock! None of these verses state that he is following the quran.
Well yes, he was supposedly hearing voices/seeing angels. Unfortunately other people were calling him mad, and since they had no proof of external voices or angels, they were saying Muhammad was mad because of the teachings he preached. Thus my explanation of 68:4 is entirely compatible with Muhammad thinking he is mad for following the instructions (which other people called him mad for!).

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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by The Cat »

darth wrote:it is entirely possible that mo had the hots quite suddenly
When you see a hot woman, she strikes you at first... not months later.
darth wrote:It was simply not done before because it was considered inappropriate.
And being inappropriate was a 'sin' against the tribe' custom, highly reprehensible.
darth wrote: The verse (33.21) does not say mo is a great example to follow in prayer.
It talks about being fortified by immersing oneself into God. Not following another sunna than God's.

11.34: My counsel will not profit you if I were minded to advise you, if Allah's will is to keep you astray...

12.40: Those whom ye worship beside Him are but names which ye have named, ye and your fathers.
Allah hath revealed no sanction for them.... This is the right religion, but most men know not.


17.73: And they indeed strove hard to beguile thee away from that wherewith We have inspired thee,
that thou shouldst invent other than it against Us; and then would they have accepted thee as a friend.

darth wrote:"Seal of prophets" does mean "last of prophet"? What is this jibril etc.
--Aba or Abu can mean not only biological affiliation but a tribe, a sectarian group or some leader, as guide.
--Khatama (khatam) in Aramaic means the 'witness of'. Even the term 'seal' indicates a guarantor, not a termination.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/seal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
''To affix a seal to in order to prove authenticity or attest to accuracy''

--We often see 'the Last Day' in the Koran (ex. 2.126, al-akhiri, aakhir) and it's obviously different from khatama (seal).

--Muhammad can't be the seal of Messengers because that belongs to Jibril.
So in all the 'obey the messenger' the link Allah-Jibril-human can't be broken.
So all human messengers should be obeyed equally, not differentiated (3.84).
darth wrote:mo's rights = all muslim's rights + special grants to mo.
Muhammad has no special rights at large, the favor in 33.50 wouldn't be needed otherwise.

20.132: And enjoin upon thy people worship, and be constant therein. We ask not
of thee a provision: We provided for thee. And the sequel is for righteousness.

darth wrote:33.53 has nothing to do with forbidding any hadiths.
It forbids all indiscretions toward Muhammad: ''linger not for conversation'' and yet the hadiths are replete with such.
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

darth
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by darth »

MesMorial wrote: It was proved by my explanation, topped off by 60:4-6.

Maybe also remember that Muhamamd followed the Qur'an; the Qur'an tells people to believe in the Last Day and remember Allah, so his good example was following Qur'anic values.
Quran does not talk only about believing in the last day and remembering allah, does it? It talks of a lot of other things including enemity and hatred for non believers. So don't cherry pick and claim that the entire quranic idea is to believe in the last day and remember allah. It is not.
Anyway, as per your explanation (whether 60:4-6 or 33) we can say the good example of mo was to fight non believers, to have enemity and hatred towards those with different beliefs etc.
But then, it still remains that the example of mo as pertains to how he fought the non believers needs to be studied. Again, as in 33.37, the personal example of mo is required material as per quran.

MesMorial wrote: Well yes, he was supposedly hearing voices/seeing angels. Unfortunately other people were calling him mad, and since they had no proof of external voices or angels, they were saying Muhammad was mad because of the teachings he preached. Thus my explanation of 68:4 is entirely compatible with Muhammad thinking he is mad for following the instructions (which other people called him mad for!).

Cheers..
You claimed that "His adherence to the Qur'an is equated with potential madness" which is errant nonsense from your head and not from the verses you provided. Mo was considered mad not because he was following the quran but because he was hearing voices in his head.

darth
Posts: 492
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by darth »

The Cat wrote: When you see a hot woman, she strikes you at first... not months later.
You could have known a woman for months (or years), but start having inappropriate (lustful) thoughts quite suddenly.
The Cat wrote: It talks about being fortified by immersing oneself into God. Not following another sunna than God's.
As I just pointed to mes, as per your explanation, if you consider previous verses it is about fighting non believers. Immersing oneself into God and all that sh!t is a mental projection of what you wish it to mean, not what it actually says.
The Cat wrote:
--Muhammad can't be the seal of Messengers because that belongs to Jibril.
So in all the 'obey the messenger' the link Allah-Jibril-human can't be broken.
Sorry! You are quran only. Show jibril in this verse or acknowledge that you are simply throwing some sh!t and hoping it will stick somewhere.

The Cat wrote:
darth wrote:mo's rights = all muslim's rights + special grants to mo.
Muhammad has no special rights at large, the favor in 33.50 wouldn't be needed otherwise.
But what do you know? Quran gave mo extra rights whether you like it or not.

The Cat wrote:
darth wrote:33.53 has nothing to do with forbidding any hadiths.
It forbids all indiscretions toward Muhammad: ''linger not for conversation'' and yet the hadiths are replete with such
Oh, for god sake stop it. 33.53 is talking specifically to men who linger and converse with mo's wives. It is not related to hadiths or old wives tales or special theory of relativity. How you can twist the verse like this beats me. This is dishonest and disingenuous.

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MesMorial
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by MesMorial »

darth wrote:
MesMorial wrote: It was proved by my explanation, topped off by 60:4-6.

Maybe also remember that Muhamamd followed the Qur'an; the Qur'an tells people to believe in the Last Day and remember Allah, so his good example was following Qur'anic values.
Quran does not talk only about believing in the last day and remembering allah, does it? It talks of a lot of other things including enemity and hatred for non believers. So don't cherry pick and claim that the entire quranic idea is to believe in the last day and remember allah. It is not.
Anyway, as per your explanation (whether 60:4-6 or 33) we can say the good example of mo was to fight non believers, to have enemity and hatred towards those with different beliefs etc.
But then, it still remains that the example of mo as pertains to how he fought the non believers needs to be studied. Again, as in 33.37, the personal example of mo is required material as per quran.

MesMorial wrote: Well yes, he was supposedly hearing voices/seeing angels. Unfortunately other people were calling him mad, and since they had no proof of external voices or angels, they were saying Muhammad was mad because of the teachings he preached. Thus my explanation of 68:4 is entirely compatible with Muhammad thinking he is mad for following the instructions (which other people called him mad for!).

Cheers..
You claimed that "His adherence to the Qur'an is equated with potential madness" which is errant nonsense from your head and not from the verses you provided. Mo was considered mad not because he was following the quran but because he was hearing voices in his head.
Yes, Muhammad's behaviour was the opposite of what the hypocrites did, therefore it is fully-detailed.

Muhammad's conduct was considered potentially erroneous in 53:2. It was not the fact that Muhammad was talking that made the others call him mad...it was what he was saying. What he says and what he follows are one in the same (46:9), because what he follows is what he described/taught (i.e. there is one God, thus worship one God).

If you do not mind me saying, nonsense is coming from your mouth. Please stop fooling yourself that ahadith are any part of the Qur'an.

Cheers.
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