Hadith Timelines

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science
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booktalker
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Hadith Timelines

Post by booktalker »

Hello peeps! I hope someone can help me with this little conundrum:

As far as I have been able to work out, the first ahadith collections were started by a guy called Muwatta Malik (CE 715 - 801). I thought that the ahadith were collected by interviewing people who had actually heard Muhammad speak - but Muwatta Malik was born 80 years after Muhammad died (supposedly CE 632), so even if he was only 20 when he started collecting stories, anyone who had heard Muhammad speak as a young child (age 10 or so) would by then have been 113 years old (you do the maths....).

Or does anyone know if there is a link on this site to a post about how the ahadith were collected and when?

Thanks!

BT

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marduk
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by marduk »

Interesting hadith collection.
SECTION 1: The Prohibition against Relieving Oneself Facing
the Qibla
Book 14, Number 14.1.1: Yahya related to me from Malik from
Ishaq ibn Abdullah ibn Abi Talha that Rafiibn Ishaq, a mawla
of the family of ash-Shifa who was known as the mawla of Abu
Talha, heard Abu Ayyub al-Ansari, one of the companions of the
Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace,
say, while he was in Egypt, "By Allah! I don't know how to
deal with these lavatories." The Messenger of Allah, may Allah
bless him and grant him peace, said, "When you go to defecate
or urinate, do not expose your genitals towards the qibla, and
do not put your back to it."
Book 14, Number 14.1.2: Yahya related to me from Malik from
one of the Ansar that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless
him and grant him peace, forbade defecating or urinating while
facing the qibla. 14.2 Permission to Face the Qibla when
Urinating or Defecating.

SECTION 2: Permission to Face the Qibla when Urinating or
Defecating
Book 14, Number 14.2.3: Yahya related to me from Malik from
Yahya ibn Said from Muhammad ibn Yahya ibn Habban from his
paternal uncle, Wasi ibn Habban, that Abdullah ibn Umar said,
"People say, 'When you sit to relieve yourself, do not face
the qibla or the Bayt al-Maqdis.' " Abdullah continued, "I
went upon top of a house of ours and saw the Messenger of
Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, (squatting) on
two unfired bricks facing the Bayt al-Maqdis, relieving
himself." Ibn Umar added, "Perhaps you are one of those who
pray folded on their haunches." Wasi replied, "I don't know,
by Allah!" Malik said that he meant someone who, when he
prostrated, kept his body close to the ground.

http://www.sultan.org/books/Muatta.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Yes, that's it, Mo was simply praying while squatting over two unfired bricks. Those weren't turds coming out his ass, they were prayers to Allah. Mo, you vile SOB, pooping while facing the Bayt al-Maqdis. So much for Mr. Perfect. More like Mr. Poopy Bayt al-Maqdis. That's Arabic for Jerusalem. Muhammad was defiling Jerusalem by pooping toward it. Now the Muslims have a big mosque there. They call it "the Dome of the Poop".

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marduk
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by marduk »

Also interesting;
SECTION 3: The Prohibition against Spitting towards the Qibla
Book 14, Number 14.3.4: Yahya related to me from Malik from
Nafi from Abdullah ibn Umar that the Messenger of Allah, may
Allah bless him and grant him peace, saw spittle on the wall
of the qibla and scraped it off. Then he went up to the people
and said, "Do not spit in front of you when you are praying,
because Allah, the Blessed and Exalted, is in front of you
when you pray."
Book 14, Number 14.3.5: Yahya related to me from Malik from
Hisham ibn Urwa from his father from A'isha, the wife of the
Prophet, mayAllah bless him and grant him peace, that the
Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, saw spittle,
or mucus or phlegm, on the wall of the qibla and scraped it
off.
The Arabs are such a respectful lot. Oh look, there's the Qibla, HAAAWK! The following is particularly interesting. It says that the Arabs had been praying toward "ash-Sham", which means the Sun. Not Jerusalem, which Muhammad had utter contempt for, but the friggin Sun.
Book 14, Number 14.3.6: Yahya related to me from Malik from
Abdullah ibn Dinar that Abdullah ibn Umar said, "On one
occasion when the people were praying subhat Quba a man came
to them and said, 'A piece of Qur'an was sent down to the
Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace,
last night, and he was ordered to face the Kaba, so face it.'
They had been facing ash-Sham, so they turned round and faced
the Kaba.''

booktalker
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by booktalker »

Hi Marduk - and the relevance of your replies to my question is...? BT x

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marduk
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by marduk »

You brought up a certain hadith collector and I looked at it and posted some excerpts. I thought it was important that you read them. Perhaps I was mistaken. I wanted you to know which direction to poop in. Pooping in the wrong direction could result in eternal damnation. Don't want that to happen to you. I also wanted you to know not to spit on the Qibla, regardless how tempting it is. Now you have been educated.

booktalker
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by booktalker »

Sorry, marduk, I'm not interested in the hadith and I'm especially not interested in your obsession with pooing and peeing (how old are you?!). I want to know - as I said in my original post - does anyone have any reliable information about who collected the ahadith, and when? BT x

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Ibn Rushd
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by Ibn Rushd »

Marduk's posts had nothing to with this thread!

To answer you question, according to recent scholarship (Crone, Schacht, Wansbrough, Hawting) the original purpose of the hadith was to record the Caliphs' doings, later it was pushed back to Muhammad. I think it is also Abbasid propaganda, and their creation. In the hadith collections, they are arranged under legal headings, not historical, chronological or even in stories. The hadiths' sole purpose is legal rulings, not history. No one knew what had happened, hence the multiple accounts of battles, conflicting stories about this and that. Example, Muhammad did this, he didn't do this, he was there at day x, he wasn't there at day x, etc.

Hawting wrote a book about Islam's views on idolatry. There are no accounts of real idoltary or polytheism in Islam, because by the time the hadiths were written, it didn't exist. It doens't even match what was recorded by Christians, Jews, and pagans themselves! The conclusion is that the Muslims were making it up as they went, matching it to "supposed" revelations that were in fact commentaries and story-settings of the Qur'an.
There is no Master but the Master, and QT-1 is his Prophet.

Asimov's robot story "Reason"

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skynightblaze
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by skynightblaze »

I would like to debate you on this topic as I see you are bringing the same arguments like CAT.
Ibn Rushd wrote:Marduk's posts had nothing to with this thread!

To answer you question, according to recent scholarship (Crone, Schacht, Wansbrough, Hawting) the original purpose of the hadith was to record the Caliphs' doings, later it was pushed back to Muhammad.
There exist a refutation to what Crone has written. There is an ebook available.

http://www.sultan.org/books/Patricia_cr ... _reply.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I don't agree with the author with everything he says but I think he has done a decent job.

Wansbrough claims that character of Muhammad was a myth and crew like calips and others didn't exist while Schacht believed Muhammad existed. So which one of these scholars are correct? This isn't evolution in thinking as CAT claims. This is plain contradiction. All these scholars cannot be correct at the same time.

Further islamic history can be confirmed through writings of non muslims.
Ibn Rushd wrote: I think it is also Abbasid propaganda, and their creation. In the hadith collections, they are arranged under legal headings, not historical, chronological or even in stories. The hadiths' sole purpose is legal rulings, not history. No one knew what had happened, hence the multiple accounts of battles, conflicting stories about this and that. Example, Muhammad did this, he didn't do this, he was there at day x, he wasn't there at day x, etc.
Then how come we have non muslim historians confirming islamic history? Please visit my resource center thread wherein I have quoted quotes from non muslims which actually support islamic history. Here is one which I will be adding later to my thread.

This is what John bar Penkaye wrote in the 7th century. He talks about 630 AD..
Spoiler! :

God summoned against us a barbarian kingdom - a people that is not open to persuasion (Isaiah 65:2) whose comfort lies in meaningless bloodshed ,whose pleasure is to dominate all nations ,whose wish to is to take captives and to make deportations.


http://books.google.co.in/books?id=-S9N ... 80%98awiya" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;],

John is talking about muslims here. He has another quote wherein he says that followers of Muhammad followed him in every minute detail and they killed the apostates so how come islamic history is confirmed by non muslim scholars??

John bar Penkaye (writing 687 CE / 67-68 AH)

Having let their dispute run its course, after much fighting had taken place between them, the Westerners, whom they call the sons of ’Ammāyē, gained the victory, and one of their number, a man called M‘awyā [i.e., Mu‘awiya], became king controlling the two kingdoms, of the Persians and of the Byzantines. Justice flourished in his time, and there was great peace in the regions under his control; he allowed everyone to live as they wanted. For they held, as I have said above, an ordinance, stemming from the man who was their guide (mhaddyānā), concerning the people of the Christians and concerning the monastic station. Also as a result of this man's guidance (mhaddyānūtā) they held to the worship of One God, in accordance with the customs of ancient law. At the beginnings they kept to the traditions (mašlmānūtā) of Mụhammad, who was their instructor (tā’rā),to such an extent that they inflicted the death penalty on anyone who was seen to act brazenly against his laws [38].

As far contradictions are concerned what if I show you contradictions in Byzantine sources regarding islam? Would that make Byzantine sources completely unreliable?? More ever even we contradict ourselves plenty of times so does that mean we all are liars and fabricators and we can never tell the truth? When these muslims collected data on such a large scale contradictions are bound to happen.

More ever if ahadith were inventions and had nothing to do with quran then how come they confirm quran on some accounts?
ibn Rushd wrote: Hawting wrote a book about Islam's views on idolatry. There are no accounts of real idoltary or polytheism in Islam, because by the time the hadiths were written, it didn't exist.
The worst idolatory is in the quran itself. Watch this video by David Wood.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz7QwOAf4Ww" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ibn Rushd wrote: It doens't even match what was recorded by Christians, Jews, and pagans themselves! The conclusion is that the Muslims were making it up as they went, matching it to "supposed" revelations that were in fact commentaries and story-settings of the Qur'an.
As a matter of fact some of the islamic history is indeed supported by non muslim accounts. I think you are being deceived yet again. If we are to believe that 7th and 8th century muslims did nothing but fabrication then we can safely say that their management beats even the management displayed by management gurus like Bill gates and Steve Jobs. I mean its simply impossible for people across centuries to continuously lie and co ordinate yet end up matching each other on many counts.

I simply don't understand what proofs other than non islamic sources do you need to accept that all the ahadith aren't fabrications?
Last edited by skynightblaze on Mon Nov 07, 2011 5:54 pm, edited 7 times in total.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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skynightblaze
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by skynightblaze »

booktalker wrote:Hello peeps! I hope someone can help me with this little conundrum:

As far as I have been able to work out, the first ahadith collections were started by a guy called Muwatta Malik (CE 715 - 801). I thought that the ahadith were collected by interviewing people who had actually heard Muhammad speak - but Muwatta Malik was born 80 years after Muhammad died (supposedly CE 632), so even if he was only 20 when he started collecting stories, anyone who had heard Muhammad speak as a young child (age 10 or so) would by then have been 113 years old (you do the maths....).

Or does anyone know if there is a link on this site to a post about how the ahadith were collected and when?

Thanks!

BT
There existed ahadith in the first century. Here are names of those ahadith collection.Here is an extract from an article.
Spoiler! :
Among the manuscripted hadith collections of the first Hijri century are:

1. `Abd Allah ibn `Amr ibn al-`As (d. 63), al-Sahifa al- Sadiqa, originally containing about 1,000 hadiths of which 500 reached us, copied down by `Abd Allah directly from the Prophet - upon him blessings and peace - and transmitted to us by his great-grandson `Amr ibn Shu`ayb (d. 118);

2. Hammam ibn Munabbih's (d. 101 or 131) al-Sahifa al- Sahiha which has reached us complete in two manuscripts containing 138 hadiths narrated by Hammam from Abu Hurayra (d. 60), from the Prophet - upon him blessings and peace;

3. The lost folios of Aban ibn `Uthman (d. 105) the son of `Uthman ibn `Affan (d. 35), from whom Muhammad ibn Ishaq (80-150/152) narrated;

4. The accomplished works of `Urwa (d. ~92-95) - the son of al-Zubayr ibn al-`Awwam and grandson of Asma' and `A'isha the learned daughters of Abu Bakr the Truthful. `Urwa ordered them burnt, after a lifetime of teaching from them, during the sack of Madina by the armies of Syro-Palestine under Yazid ibn Mu`awiya in 63;

5. Muhammad ibn Shihab al-Zuhri's (d. 120) Sira, from which Ibn Ishaq also borrowed much;

6. `Asim ibn `Umar ibn Qatada ibn al-Nu`man al-Ansari's (d. 120 or 129) Maghazi and Manaqib al-Sahaba, another principal thiqa source for Ibn Ishaq and others;

7. `Abd Allah ibn Abi Bakr ibn Muhammad ibn `Amr ibn Hazm al-Ansari's (d. 135) tome, another main source for Ibn Ishaq Ibn Sa`d, and others;

8. The most reliable Sira of the Madinan Musa ibn `Uqba al-Asadi (d. 141), praised by Imam Malik and used by Ibn Sa`d and others.
http://www.livingislam.org/n/vih_e.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Bukhari had access to all these books. Its not that he was pulling things out of his arse.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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SAM
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by SAM »

booktalker wrote:Hello peeps! I hope someone can help me with this little conundrum:

As far as I have been able to work out, the first ahadith collections were started by a guy called Muwatta Malik (CE 715 - 801). I thought that the ahadith were collected by interviewing people who had actually heard Muhammad speak - but Muwatta Malik was born 80 years after Muhammad died (supposedly CE 632), so even if he was only 20 when he started collecting stories, anyone who had heard Muhammad speak as a young child (age 10 or so) would by then have been 113 years old (you do the maths....).

Or does anyone know if there is a link on this site to a post about how the ahadith were collected and when?

Thanks!

BT
Some good tips,maybe it is useful to you ... http://islam.uga.edu/hadith.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion.
Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance."
(2:120)

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skynightblaze
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by skynightblaze »

@ibn Rushd

Theophanes was a non muslim who was born in 760 AD. If ahadith and siras were fabrication why would he copy some of the same things from ahadith and sira into his writings ? Wouldn't he know that no information about Muhammad existed before and suddenly muslims came with up with something new? Wouldnt he mention this incident in his writings?
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

booktalker
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by booktalker »

Ah, Ibn Rushd, a voice of reason.. thank you everyone for the responses - I will digest and return in due course. BT x

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skynightblaze
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by skynightblaze »

booktalker wrote:Ah, Ibn Rushd, a voice of reason.. thank you everyone for the responses - I will digest and return in due course. BT x
Looks like you came here to hear only what you wanted to hear.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

Idesigner
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by Idesigner »

booktalker wrote:Hello peeps! I hope someone can help me with this little conundrum:

As far as I have been able to work out, the first ahadith collections were started by a guy called Muwatta Malik (CE 715 - 801). I thought that the ahadith were collected by interviewing people who had actually heard Muhammad speak - but Muwatta Malik was born 80 years after Muhammad died (supposedly CE 632), so even if he was only 20 when he started collecting stories, anyone who had heard Muhammad speak as a young child (age 10 or so) would by then have been 113 years old (you do the maths....).

Or does anyone know if there is a link on this site to a post about how the ahadith were collected and when?

Thanks!

BT
Dear Book Talker,

Muwatta Malik is name of the collection of hdiths. Author or compiler is Malik Ibn Anas who rejected 99% of Hadiths and written down only 1% of authentic hadiths. Later Bukhari will use this collection as a guide for his hadiths.

Malik Ibn Anas was historic person ( 711-795?) living in Medina. He was a very highly respected first Islamic jurisprudence scholar .. He used to narrate hadiths to Khalifa Mansur and others of his time.He hated reading Kalama or giving lectures. He hated bida or any kind of inventions. All sunnis believe trust his Fiqh.

In days of our prophet (PUBH) there were no tape recorders or even good scribes who can record saying etc on the spot. No one carried typewriters or scribes on battle field.It was always narrated later by survivors.

Malik Ibn Anas got his hadith source through golden command from Mohemmed (PUBH) to Omar to Nafi to himself. Like all other religions Islam had oral traditions. These reliable traditions should not be junked because we dont like certain hadiths.

Other reliable source for Hadith was Ibn Ishaq ( 704-770) the great grand son of christian slave of Khadija. He was the author of first biography of prophet Mohemmed. Malik Ibn Anas hated this guy and didnot like many hadiths narrated by Ibn Ishaq in his biography of PUBH Surat- Rasuallah.. These two had some kind of rivalry when they talked about saying of Mohemmed.Ofcourse many present day Islamic scholars dismiss whole work of Ibn Ishaq. Reason; They dont believe many stories natrrated by Ibn Ishaq.Now in my opinion this is real bida. Believe the stories narrated by some 21st century western educated Pakistani mullah but dismiss Ibn Ishaq. :cool: Whole religion cant have been invented just because it has a gap of one or two generations.

Book Talker I know what you are upto. You want to dismiss and destroy all noble traditions of Islam and disown everything . For your bidai you will go to hell. :D
Last edited by Idesigner on Mon Nov 07, 2011 7:34 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Idesigner
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by Idesigner »

Ibn Rushd:Haviing wrote a book about Islam's views on idolatry. There are no accounts of real idoltary or polytheism in Islam, because by the time the hadiths were written, it didn't exist. It doens't even match what was recorded by Christians, Jews, and pagans themselves! The conclusion is that the Muslims were making it up as they went, matching it to "supposed" revelations that were in fact commentaries and story-settings of the Qur'an.
Dear Ibn,


You are here committing bida or invention. :D

Noble Koran and our prophet (pubh) did talk about sins of idoltry and polytheism. Read Koran and about those Gharanik goddesses ( Al Uah, Al Manat, Al Lat) of Mecca. Hadith writers and others picked up on this theme and warn us muslims not to worship idols.Moral was even our noble prophet was tempted but he overcame temptation.

We are not sure that at the time of compilation of Hadiths ( 700-800 A.D.) about 80 years after the death of our PUBH idoltry , paganism and christianity was totally abolsihed everywhere in Arabian peninsula and in regions conquered by our noble warriors. :x

Now Ibn what has made you to say that we muslims were making up as we went. Sure Allah will punish you for your blasphemy. :*). Nothing was made up neither Koran nor hadiths.

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skynightblaze
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by skynightblaze »

Idesigner wrote:
Ibn Rushd:Haviing wrote a book about Islam's views on idolatry. There are no accounts of real idoltary or polytheism in Islam, because by the time the hadiths were written, it didn't exist. It doens't even match what was recorded by Christians, Jews, and pagans themselves! The conclusion is that the Muslims were making it up as they went, matching it to "supposed" revelations that were in fact commentaries and story-settings of the Qur'an.
Dear Ibn,

You are here committing bida or invention. :D

Noble Koran and our prophet (pubh) did talk abot sins of idoltry and polytheism. Read Koran and about those Gharnik goddesses of Mecca. Hadith writers and others picked up on this theme and warn us muslims not to worship idols.

We are not sure that at the time of compilation of Hadiths ( 700-800 A.D.) about 80 years after the death of our PUBH idoltry , paganism and christianity was totally abolsihed everywhere in Arabian peninsul and in refions conquered by our noble warriors. :x

Now Ibn what has made you to say that we muslims were making up as we went. Sure Allah will punish you for your blasphemy. :*)
I think you are being sarcastic here. Do you believe that all the ahadith are fabrications? As far as idolatory is concerned its right there in the quran . David Wood talks about a verse from quran at the end of the video where Allah swears by everything that is seen and unseen which would also include Gods of non muslims. In short Allah acknowledges them as Gods by Swearing by their name because one swears on something that one believes to exist and therefore Allah believes that other Gods exist and therefore the shirk is committed by Allah himself.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

Idesigner
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by Idesigner »

.No hadiths are not fabrications. It rest on solid ground of some oral and some written traditions. Many hadiths supported by Koran . As I said before a religion cant be concocted just because there were no microphones, typewriters or taperecorders. All religions have oral traditions and Islam also had lots of authentic oral traditions.Only those new age muslims want to rewrite everything to please their PC correct western masters. :nono:

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skynightblaze
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by skynightblaze »

Idesigner wrote:.No hadiths are not fabrications. It rest on solid ground of some oral and some written traditions. Many hadiths supported by Koran . As I said before a religion cant be concocted just because there were no microphones, typewriters or tape recorders. All religions have oral traditions and Islam also had lots of authentic oral traditions.Only those new age muslims want to rewrite everything to please their PC correct western masters. :nono:
I agree with you said.The part in red is the precise reason as to why muslims want to reject those ahadith. They know that western values are superior and therefore they feel the need to re paint the character of Muhammad. In case of Ibn Rushd, Phil or even BookTalker it's a bit different. They have been duped by con man CAT.

Anyway I just want to these anti ahadith people in this thread to ponder upon a question.

If I make a claim as of today that all the generation of muslims in the last 2 centuries deliberately defamed their prophet by totally inventing false things and thereby portray him as a criminal. Does this claim sound sensible to anyone??

Same arguments that are used against people of 8th century can be used now. Even today opportunities for corruption are unlimited. People can fabricate the religion to suit their needs.

If I make such claims in the open people will laugh at me .

If my claim sounds stupid today, then why does the same claim sound intelligent to you when made about muslims in the 7th or 8th century?
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

Idesigner
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by Idesigner »

Dear SNB,

If we apply same logic ( muslims insitance on typewriters, scribes on the site :D ) in connection with christianity, christians would discard christianity.

Gospels were narrated by four or more apostles. Their account differs in detail about life and time of christ. Gospel in present form ( in original Greek) was composed some 150 or more years later. Add the work of Paul and his epistels or letters. Add the straight jacket dictat by emperor constantin some 300 years after the christ, when Christ was declared as God as well as Massih. Even dead sea schroll also tells different story about christian belief system. Christians have lived with all these contradictions and kept their faith alive. Christians have no problem with their oral traditions. Only muslims have lots of doubt, uncertainties about their faith just because there was a gap of 70 years in writing the whole story. Not only that they are prepared to go to war with other muslims because they find Mohemmed stories unpalatable.

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The Cat
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Re: Hadith Timelines

Post by The Cat »

Idesigner wrote:Malik Ibn Anas got his hadith source through golden command from Mohemmed (PUBH) to Omar to Nafi to himself. Like all other religions Islam had oral traditions. These reliable traditions should not be junked because we dont like certain hadiths.
Then I'm sure you'll easily pinpoint which one of the 50 versions of his Muwatta is definitively authentic.
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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