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Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:13 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
The Cat wrote:
MbL wrote:
The Cat wrote:Wrong. And we've seen how Y. Ali is alone in this allegory. So there's nothing about shape, not in 2.22, 15.19, 51.48, or elsewhere.

And I've shown your deceptive use of 'spread out' many times already. Between us, Lane's Lexicon makes you wrong. Get it??

Spreading a single physical object ultimately entails making it more flat to the extent it is spread out. How can you deny that?.... So where is "spreading out" as something making it habitable? So why did the earth need to be spread out in order to make it habitable?

This is of course your main argument and it's plainy wrong, as per the definitions of 'spread out', that of E. Lane, and the context.

Let's check it one last time for, as far as I am concerned, you both stand flat!
From: http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp


From your link
(79:30:1)
wal-arḍa
And the earth CONJ – prefixed conjunction wa (and)
N – accusative feminine noun → Earth
الواو عاطفة
اسم منصوب
(79:30:2)
baʿda
after T – accusative time adverb
ظرف زمان منصوب
(79:30:3)
dhālika
that DEM – masculine singular demonstrative pronoun
اسم اشارة
(79:30:4)
daḥāhā
He spread it.[/quote]

What did Allah do to spread the earth?? How did he spread it?? Did he remove obstacles, like one of the definitions you try to use?? If so, what obstacles?? Did he make the earth smooth. If so, what part of the earth did he make smooth and what did he change to make it smooth?

The Cat wrote:2.22
Firashan = resting place

15.19
And the earth We have spread it (madadnaha)


Yes, spread it out like a bed is spread out and is flat so someone can lay on it or rest on it. When's the last time you've seen a ball shaped bed, lunatic?

The Cat wrote:20.53
Madhan = bed


Answered above. Funny how i answer every point you make and you don't answer every point I make. You merely discard the questions you can't answer and then pretend as though you've answered them.


The Cat wrote:29.56
Wasi'atun = (is) spacious.


How was it made more spacious?? It was spread out to make it more spacious, right? So what happens to it's shape when you spread out a singular, physical object? 4th time I've asked you this.


The Cat wrote:43.10
The One Who made for you the earth a bed (l-arda mahdan)


Answered above. Beds a flat and stretch out so that people can lay on them. The earth was stretch out and made flat so that people could live on it.


The Cat wrote:51.48
Wal-arda farashanaha = And the earth We have spread it.


And what happens to a singular physical object when it is spread out?

The Cat wrote:71.19
And Allah made for you the earth an expanse (l-arda bisatan)


What does expanse have to do with hospitality and comfort?


The Cat wrote:78.6
Have not We made the earth a resting place? (l-arda mihadan)


Yes, by flattening it out.

The Cat wrote:79.13
Dahaha = He spread it


You mean 79:30. I only raise that because I can tell you think you're perfect and can't stand making even one little mistake. Why does spreading the earth make it more comfortable and habitable for people. I keep asking and you refuse to answer. I'll just keep asking until you do so that everybody gets to see how you really behave and how evasive you really are.

The Cat wrote:88.20
And towards the earth, how it is spread out? (sutihat)


Yes, it was spread out to create ample flat space for people to live on. They can't live on the sides of a ball (or so they thought). We've already been through this

The Cat wrote:Edward Lane's Lexicon, on Daha...
--He spread; spread out, or forth; expanded; or extended
--He (God) made the earth wide, or ample;


By spreading it out and extending it. Exactly as I say. And once again, what happens when you spread a singular physical object or or extends it?? It gets flatter to the extent one spread it or stretches it.

The Cat wrote:--also, said of an ostrich, he expanded, and made wide...[/color]


Well I gave a more specific explanation of HOW it actually relates to the ostrich and you tried to write that off as merely their opinion. Now, it seems as though you've changed you mind and do not think it was merely their opinion. And yet, you'll never admit that. That's OK, everybody gets to see what you're really made of and how you operate when properly challenged. I'm liking this.


The Cat wrote:viewtopic.php?p=161807#p161807
Of 'spread out', we find (1) Diffuse; (2) Arrange/set up; (3) Scatter; (4) Expand/dispread.


definition for diffuse
1.to pour out and spread, as a fluid.[/quote]

Did Allah pour the earth out?? Ridiculous

2.to spread or scatter widely or thinly; disseminate.


That does not refer to a singular object but rather multiple individual ones. Nice try but it's simply not goinmg to work. You're not very bright and now you're coming off as quite dishonest.

3.Physics . to spread by diffusion.


How does this relate to the earth being spread out?

The Cat wrote:Diffuse
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/diffuse
diffuse - Based on Latin diffundere, "pour out," from fundere, "pour," it means "to spread out."


So now the story is that Allah poured the earth out?? If it's not, then why raise this particular application of the word?? Just to dilute and confuse things?? Sorry, but that's not going to work. It's a pretty stupid and desperate attempt. Trying to diffuse the issue??? :lol: :lol:

The Cat wrote:--To pour out and cause to spread freely;


Was the earth poured out into outer space?

The Cat wrote: To spread about or scatter, disseminate; soften.


Not in the case of a singular physical object.


The Cat wrote:--To become widely dispersed, spread out. Widely spread or scattered.


Not in the case of a singular physical object.


The Cat wrote:--To spread or cause to spread in all directions


And it didn't use the word expand as it did for the heavens. So what happens to a singular object when it is spread out in all directions?? What happens to a ball of pizza dough when it is spread out in all directions? Go ahead, avoid the question. That's fine because everybody gets to see how you really operate when your crackpot ideas are properly challenged. People must be really stupid to have any respect for you. I can't believe they don't see through you.

The Cat wrote:--To undergo or cause to undergo diffusion


Pouring out the earth into space?


The Cat wrote:--To scatter or cause to scatter, disseminate, disperse


Not in the case of a singular physical object.

The Cat wrote:--Spread out over a wide area


And what happens to a singular, physical object when you spread it out over a wide area? Does it get rounder or flatter?

The Cat wrote:And so an ostrich spread out its nest, ie. make it wide, ample, expanded, to comfortably suit a communal purpose.


And it does this by spreading the dirt out and then FLATTENING it down.


The Cat wrote:Clearly to spread out is to diffuse, causing diffusion.


That's the definition we are supposed to choose for spread out?? Allah poured the earth out?? Take water from a fish bowl and pour it out. Does it become more round as it diffuses or more flat?

The Cat wrote: Nothing to do with round/flat; but wide, ample, expanded for comfort.


Nope, nice try. And unlike you, I answer every single point you attempt in detail piece by piece.

The Cat wrote:Our skating sophists, out of arrogance, will stay... flat.
It's there for everyone to see...
[/quote]

Nobody in their right mind would agree, but you think otherwise because you are not in your right mind. But part of me thinks you actually know you are wrong, but just can't bear that fact. All that anybody has to do with you is to ask detailed questions and your story falls apart. And by avoiding answering them, you do not solve your problem, you merely show everyone just how evasive you are willing to be.

Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 12:56 am
by iffo
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
The story of Genesis was partly derived from stories that came before it. So which verses specifically are you talking about? Even if there are verses that are dubious, the Bible is a modular collection of books over thousands of years. We could get rid of the entire book of Genesis and still keep the rest of the Bible. It's not my fault that Muhammad claimed the Quran to be the letter for letter dictation of Allah, and therefore, one mistake, just one, and the entire thing becomes a lie. I didn't make that rule up and decide to portray the Quran this way by writing it in first person form rather than writing it as a narrator retelling a story. Muhammad made that up. So blame him for the pickle you inevitably find yourself in. What was supposed to be the Quran's ultimate strength ultimately turns out to be it's ultimate weakness. Muhammad wasn't a very good thinker and didn't think things through very well.


In other words human wrote that story (Genesis ) and it is total garbage , correct ? so you have garbage in your holy book right?

Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 8:34 am
by Centaur
iffo wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
iffo wrote:old bag should be sent to mental institution


He's merely giving the correct, honest interpretation of the Quran. He's honest and you are not, but rather self deluding. It's really that simple, even though you'll never admit it.

And these hadiths even confirm that the Quran says the sun orbits the earth. How much denial can you possibly be in?

Sahih Al-Bukhari

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: ‘And the sun Runs its fixed course for a term (decreed). That is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing.’" (36.38)


So not only does it say the sun orbits the earth everyday, Muhammad also makes an impossible prophecy about the sun reversing the course it travels and rising in the west, when in fact, if the sun reversed the actual course it traveled, that would have nothing to do with it rising in the west. And any prophecy is not supposed to come from Muhammad, and instead Allah is supposed to have given it to him. So either Muhammad is wrong and dead crazy, or Muhammad is a flat out liar.As far as the authenticity of the hadith, it's confirmed in other hadiths as well.

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 520:
Narrated Abu Dharr:
I entered the mosque while Allah's Apostle was sitting there. When the sun had set, the Prophet said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where this (sun) goes?" I said, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and asks permission to prostrate, and it is allowed, and (one day) it, as if being ordered to return whence it came, then it will rise from the west." Then the Prophet recited, "That: ‘And the sun runs on its fixed course (for a term decreed)," (36.38) as it is recited by ‘Abdullah.


Sahih Muslim

Book 001, Number 0297:
It is narrated on the authority of Abu Dharr that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) one day said: Do you know where the sun goes? They replied: Allah and His Apostle know best. He (the Holy Prophet) observed: Verily it (the sun) glides till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it falls prostrate and remains there until it is asked: Rise up and go to the place whence you came, and it goes back and continues emerging out from its rising place and then glides till it reaches its place of rest under the Throne and falls prostrate and remains in that state until it is asked: Rise up and return to the place whence you came, and it returns and emerges out from it rising place and the it glides (in such a normal way) that the people do not discern anything (unusual in it) till it reaches its resting place under the Throne. Then it would be said to it: Rise up and emerge out from the place of your setting, and it will rise from the place of its setting. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said. Do you know when it would happen? It would happen at the time when faith will not benefit one who has not previously believed or has derived no good from the faith.


It's not my fault that you and other Muslims feel the need to lie to yourselves and live in denial.


You are very desperate, quran never says earth is flat ................ I don't want to start that old discussion again. .......... I think you lie, you are a christian pretending to be an atheist ..............


:lol: Koran states earth is flat umpteen times. Or have you got another version?
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=4526&start=0

Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:13 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
iffo wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
The story of Genesis was partly derived from stories that came before it. So which verses specifically are you talking about? Even if there are verses that are dubious, the Bible is a modular collection of books over thousands of years. We could get rid of the entire book of Genesis and still keep the rest of the Bible. It's not my fault that Muhammad claimed the Quran to be the letter for letter dictation of Allah, and therefore, one mistake, just one, and the entire thing becomes a lie. I didn't make that rule up and decide to portray the Quran this way by writing it in first person form rather than writing it as a narrator retelling a story. Muhammad made that up. So blame him for the pickle you inevitably find yourself in. What was supposed to be the Quran's ultimate strength ultimately turns out to be it's ultimate weakness. Muhammad wasn't a very good thinker and didn't think things through very well.


In other words human wrote that story (Genesis ) and it is total garbage , correct ? so you have garbage in your holy book right?


It's not the letter for letter dictation, so yes, there could be parts the storyteller got wrong. That part of Genesis might be wrong or incorporated into Genesis by men. The only problem I see is that it seems to make everything earth centric. just like the Quran does. But one is a story told by a story teller and is only one part of one book of many books, the other is one, singular, non modular, monolithic book that clearly represents itself as the letter for letter dictation of God. If the Quran didn't do that, I could give it a lot more serious consideration and even make excuses for it. But it did, so no excuse can be made for it. One error, just one, and the entire thing becomes a very questionable lie. And, of course, there are countless errors all over the place right in front of somebody's nose.

Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 2:17 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
Centaur wrote:

:lol: Koran states earth is flat umpteen times. Or have you got another version?
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=4526&start=0[/quote]

Yes, the Quran says the earth was made habitable and comfortable by flattening it out like a bed and it was made stable by adding the mountains, which also helps make it habitable. Stretched out gave it ample room to support many people and other forms of life, flat made it livable where people wouldn't fall off it because it was no longer round and mountains made it stable. Cat is merely playing a bizarre word game. It's actually very dishonest, and believe me, he even knows that, but he's a very proud person and he can't be mistaken about anything. When you delude yourself to fancy yourself as a genius, you can't admit mistakes. Either that, or he's just simply insane. Hard to tell.

Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 3:10 pm
by Connedbymo+co
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
Yes, the Quran says the earth was made habitable and comfortable by flattening it out like a bed and it was made stable by adding the mountains, which also helps make it habitable. Stretched out gave it ample room to support many people and other forms of life, flat made it livable where people wouldn't fall off it because it was no longer round and mountains made it stable. Cat is merely playing a bizarre word game. It's actually very dishonest, and believe me, he even knows that, but he's a very proud person and he can't be mistaken about anything. When you delude yourself to fancy yourself as a genius, you can't admit mistakes. Either that, or he's just simply insane. Hard to tell.



Plus the Koran claims the mountains are the only thing which prevent the earth appearing as a level strech:

Qur'an 18:47
One Day We shall remove the mountains, and thou wilt see the earth as a level stretch, and We shall gather them, all together, nor shall We leave out any one of them.


But one day it will become apparent that it is!?

Why does anyone have to wait till judgement day to see the lie of the land? Didn't Allah know about sattelites! :lol:
Shame he didn't as he wouldn't have made such a silly error.

Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2011 4:10 pm
by Idesigner
..
But one day it will become apparent that it is!?

Why does anyone have to wait till judgement day to see the lie of the land? Didn't Allah know about sattelites! :lol:
Shame he didn't as he wouldn't have made such a silly error.


The day of judgement and belief in after life, heaven and hell is the trump card or boogey man of almost all religions. All religions capitalize , scares , misguides people because of built in human need to believe in after life.

Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:05 am
by The Cat
skynightblaze wrote:Now he simply cant hide his beliefs and his posts drip with evidence that he is a quran alone muslim. Now just for a second think.. WOuld any kafir in wildest of their dreams claim that islam is older than quran?

I guess this is why I was the first to debunk iffo's egyptian haman and show the hoax it was...

And get informed (for once) how the root SLM is much older than Islam.

skynightblaze wrote:
The Cat wrote:Not so much to hide them, which a part of security/comfort anyway, but since their nest is a communal affair,
it must be wide/ample enough to be comfortable so to accommodate up to 20 eggs.

Are you trying to tell me that earth was spread out to give security? How in the world can anyone get security because of spreading? Remember the verse talks about spreading out. These words cannot be ignored..... The comfort factor can be said in case of any nest or any place that is flat. Why single out Ostrich;s nest?

Are you telling me that earth was spread out to live out flat? Should we then spread out the information? It'll spread fast... :ohmy:

Now it's Edward Lane's line and you're silly as can be to state that all flat places are comfortable.
And spread does not entail flat. Explain to me how a bird spreading out its wings becomes flat?

skynightblaze wrote:
The Cat wrote:That's a silly logic especially when confronted with some vague term such as 'dahaha' (spread out, wide, ample as per Lane's Lexicon).

Expanse, Spread out, Flatten. 15.19, 29.56, 51.48, 79.30
viewtopic.php?p=161807#p161807

how about the tafsirs?? They clearly state what the verses in connection mean. You should have no problem in accepting them because you claim that you take them as historical sources.

More silliness: this argument ain't about history.

skynightblaze wrote:
The Cat wrote:Your problem is that you don't understand that nest, cradle, resting-place or bed were translating an allegory.

The allegory has to make sense. Its a stupid allegory if it referred to the nest of OStrich to indicate comfort because same can be said about any place that is spacious.

Such as the earth, thank you.

skynightblaze wrote:
The Cat wrote:It's not the 'earth's surface' but the whole planet made as a bed or cradle for mankind, animals and vegetation.Something unfound on the other planets we know of. So it's a couch-like place contrary to other planets.

There is a huge difference between saying EArth is like cradle and bed AND saying EArth is comfortable like Cradle and bed. All the verses say is EArth is spread out like a cradle or bed .

So, according to you, a bed or cradle aren't mean to be comfortable, sheltering, hospitable? Are you a fakir? :nono:

Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:21 am
by The Cat
MbL elucubrations on 'spread out'...
MbL wrote:Yes, spread it out like a bed is spread out and is flat so someone can lay on it or rest on it. When's the last time you've seen a ball shaped bed, lunatic?.... It was spread out to make it more spacious, right? So what happens to it's shape when you spread out a singular, physical object? 4th time I've asked you this.... Beds a flat and stretch out so that people can lay on them. The earth was stretch out and made flat so that people could live on it.... And what happens to a singular physical object when it is spread out?... Why does spreading the earth make it more comfortable and habitable for people. I keep asking and you refuse to answer.... Yes, it was spread out to create ample flat space for people to live on.

What happens when a bird spread out, expand or diffuse its wings? Does it become flat? Or rather wider and ample?

And look at my response to you: viewtopic.php?p=161807#p161807
Which you've answered with a quote confirming me!
http://en.islamtoday.net/node/667

Skate as much as you want, you face the wall of Lane's Lexicon, an unmatched dictionary about Classical Arabic.
Edward Lane's Lexicon, on Daha...
--He spread; spread out, or forth; expanded; or extended
--He (God) made the earth wide, or ample;
--also, said of an ostrich, he expanded, and made wide...

All these terms must be understood altogether: Spread out/forth (a movement); expanded/wide; extended/ample
Just like an ostrich expand/extent the nest so to be comfortable/hospitable to shelter a whole community of eggs.

MbL wrote:Spreading a single physical object ultimately entails making it more flat to the extent it is spread out.

--The college of Minnesota has spread out into a dozen affiliations.
--This manuscript has spreaded out into a million selling books.
--The earth spread itself out in many forms and colors.
--The scene spread out magic atmospheres from the lighting.
--The landscape spread its magnificence.
You shouldn't show your ineptness that much. Next?

MbL fantasy skating over 'to pour out'...
MbL wrote:So now the story is that Allah poured the earth out?? If it's not, then why raise this particular application of the word?? Just to dilute and confuse things?? Sorry, but that's not going to work. It's a pretty stupid and desperate attempt. Trying to diffuse the issue??? .... Was the earth poured out into outer space?.... Not in the case of a singular physical object.... So what happens to a singular object when it is spread out in all directions?? What happens to a ball of pizza dough when it is spread out in all directions?.... That's the definition we are supposed to choose for spread out?? Allah poured the earth out?? Take water from a fish bowl and pour it out. Does it become more round as it diffuses or more flat?....

You're even poor at being a sophist...
What happens when you pour out your inner thoughts, did they become flat or liquefied? :whistling:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pour
2. To send forth, produce, express, or utter copiously, as if in a stream or flood:
poured money into the project; poured out my inner thoughts.
2. (tr) to issue, emit, etc., in a profuse way

What happens to a girl when she's pouring out some emotions? Or when you pour out the wine to decant it?

Aren't you pouring out your (liquefied?) frustrations right here, while being shown flat wrong... :tumbleweed:

Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:59 am
by MesMorial
Who was Haman? Below is the standard-packaged response (which I seem to be in possession of) to flat planets.

Spoiler! :
Is the Earth Flat? Is the Sky a Solid Object?


“Who made the earth a resting place for you and the heaven a canopy and (Who) sends down rain from the cloud then brings forth with it subsistence for you of the fruits; therefore do not set up rivals to Allah while you know.”

Qur’an 2:22


(See also the ayah 21:32.)


Regarding ayah 2:22, there is no problem because the surface of the earth is a resting place/”carpet” for creatures. Now concerning the sky as “canopy”, the Arabic word for “sky”/“heaven” (sama) effectively includes anything upwards as suggested by the ayah 16:79:


“Do they not see the birds, constrained in the middle of the sky? None withholds them but Allah; most surely there are signs in this for a people who believe.”

Qur’an 16:79


If “the sky” here were to mean the “blue ceiling”, it would become clear that the Qur’an is talking from the perspective of human beings thus rendering “sky” as “canopy” in 2:22 (since that is what it appears as). However, see the following ayat:


“And He it is Who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all (orbs) travel along swiftly in their celestial spheres.”

Qur’an 21:33


“Neither is it allowable to the sun that it should overtake the moon, nor can the night outstrip the day; and all float on in a sphere.”

Qur’an 36:40


(Ayah 71:16 confirms that the moon is inside the sky.)


“And on the day when the trumpet shall be blown, then those who are in the heavens and those who are in the earth shall be terrified except such as Allah please, and all shall come to him abased.”

Qur’an 27:87


“And you shall not escape in the earth nor in the heaven, and you have neither a protector nor a helper besides Allah.”

Qur’an 29:22


“And one of His signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth and what He has spread forth in both of them of living beings; and when He pleases He is all-powerful to gather them together.”

Qur’an 42:29


“Allah is he Who sends forth the winds so they raise a cloud, then He spreads it forth in the sky as He pleases, and He breaks it up so that you see the rain coming forth from inside it; then when He causes it to fall upon whom He pleases of His servants, lo! they are joyful.”

Qur’an 30:48


“And the heaven, We constructed it with strength, and most surely We are its expanders.”

Qur’an 51:47


It can be concluded from these ayat that the sky represents the area above our heads, and that we ourselves are within the sky. Thus according to the Qur’an, the sky is not solid (in 41:11 the sky is described as “smoke” after initial conception). As a reply, a critic could point to ayat such as 2:164:


“…and the changing of the winds and the clouds made subservient between the heaven and the earth, there are signs for a people who understand.”

Qur’an 2:164


This is similar to ayah 30:48 and we already know that “sky” refers to the area above our heads. “Between the heaven and the earth” could either mean “between what is above the clouds (what we would see if the clouds were not there) and the earth”, or simply between the boundaries of the heaven and the earth (the literal view). In this case, the word for “between” (bayna) would take on its alternative meaning, “among” (see 3:140 and 9:107). “Bayna” can also convey “before” (e.g. see ayat 3:3, 3:50 and 7:57).

Back to the point, ayah 2:22 is referring to the area above our heads which acts as a canopy (the entre “sky of this world” referred to in the Qur’an has multiple functions such as serving as our canopy (2:22), and guarding (67:5)). Now the word used for “canopy” can also mean “dome” or “roof”, but it is fair to say that either way the sky is being represented as such a protective structure (it may simply be describing the sky as a “roof” whether or not we relate to it a specific purpose). Indeed, as well as containing extra-terrestrial material, the area above our heads does serve to protect life on earth from such external elements (e.g. U.V. rays through ozone and comets which burn up in the atmosphere before they reach earth).

There is thus no problem with the ayah 2:22.

Moving on, ayah 21:32 repeats the same allusion:


“And We have made the heaven a guarded canopy and (yet) they turn aside from its signs.”

Qur’an 21:32


The “guarding” here may refer to protection from jinn (37:6-10, 67:5, 72:1-9), and if it did not then there are various other explanations such as protection by gravity/natural laws etc.). We will thus assume that the canopy here is protected against jinn (or any folk), and to explain it we must remember that the area above our heads has many functions and sectors all of which are a segment of the same sky. That is to say, jinn or anyone else who attempts to pass upwards through the sky (simply the “roof”) will firstly find the canopy difficult to encompass (since it is high and vast (51:47, 52:5 (see also the ayah 55:33 where we are challenged to pass through the regions of the sky)) and secondly they will be pursued by guards and flaming fires (see 72:8). Thus the sky itself serves as a vast canopy which protects us and is itself guarded against intruders who wish to pass through it completely.

Note that the Arabic of ayah 21:32 may render “protective canopy” instead of “guarded canopy” (the word used is “hafizun” which means “guardian”). With this adjustment, no further explanation is required beyond that offered for 2:22.

Let us move to the next ayat:


“And He it is Who spread the earth and made in it firm mountains and rivers, and of all fruits He has made in it two kinds; He makes the night cover the day; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.”

Qur’an 13:3


“And the earth-- We have spread it forth and made in it firm mountains and caused to grow in it of everything well-balanced.”

Qur’an 15:19


It is no surprise that the Qur’an describes the extent of the earth in the same way that it describes the extent of the sky (51:47, 52:5). Also see the ayat below:


“Surely (as for) those whom the angels cause to die while they are unjust to their souls, they shall say: In what state were you? They shall say: We were weak in the earth. They shall say: Was not Allah's earth spacious, so that you should have migrated therein? So these it is whose abode is hell, and it is an evil resort.”

Qur’an 4:97


‘(He turned in mercy also) to the three who were left behind; (they felt guilty) to such a degree that the earth seemed constrained to them, for all its spaciousness, and their (very) souls seemed straitened…”

Qur’an 9:118


“O My servants who believe! surely My earth is vast, therefore Me alone should you serve.”

Qur’an 29:56


“Say: O my servants who believe! be careful of (your duty to) your Lord; for those who do good in this world is good, and Allah's earth is spacious; only the patient will be paid back their reward in full without measure.”

Qur’an 39:10


Also the context implies that it is referring to a function (if even only as an observable sign), and indeed the earth that we walk on has for all intents and purposes been spread out for us. The same context and explanation can be applied to ayat 50:7 and 78:7. We should look at:


“And the earth, how it is spread out?”

Qur’an 88:20


The Tafseer Al-Jalalein says:

“And the earth how it is spread out (Arabic: “sutihat”): meaning that it was stretched…” The stretching and the expanding of the earth to make it livable is what Allah (SWT) referred to when He declared the earth "sutihat”.

The context of this ayah is a description of things made useful for us (camels, sky and mountains).

It is also worthy to note ayah 79:30:


“And the earth, He expanded it after that.”

Qur’an 79:30


This verse could perhaps be rendered: “And the earth, He made it egg-shaped.” The word is “dahy” which is still used for “egg” among the Arabic-speaking population of North Africa (also note the Palestinian Dahraja dance wherein women dance in a circle). The verse perhaps literally declares: “He egged it.” Remember that this does not have to mean chicken eggs (though some are quite spherical).

Regarding the grammar, a part of the beauty of the Qur'an is that its words contain multiple meanings and interpretations for both medieval times and modern times. Udhi'ya or Udhu'wa are names for the egg of the ostrich: See the comment from “Answering-Islam” below:


“When the female ostrich fears a danger threatening her egg, she immediately digs into the sand to hide the egg, then "tadhoo" (flattens) the earth above it, so that it would not be seen by the vultures of the air who are always in search of such a delicacy for their next meal. Therefore, the word "al-udhu'wa" is used as a name of the ostrich egg since it is something (with the sand) flattened (over it). "


“Udhiya” is the singular of “Dahyyaat”, and “Udhuwa” is the same word as “Udhiya”. “Deheya”/”Deheyya” also means “Udhiya”. In Arabic grammar, depending on the position of the word in the sentence, people sometimes substitute the pronunciation of the “y” with a “w”. “Udhiya” and “Udhuwa” are the same. The Arabic word “dahaha” is derived from the root word “dahya” which literally means “egg”. “Udhuwa” is the reference to “dahya”. In Arabic, words that are referenced are sometimes presented differently. “Udhuwa” and “dahya” are written differently, but they mean the same thing.

A good example of this is “udhooka” and “duhka”. “Duhka” conveys “a laugh”. If we say to someone: “Let me give you a laugh”, we say to them: “daani uteeka udhooka”. “Udhooka” is the reference word here for “duhka”.

Notice “daani uteeka duhka” was not written, but rather “daani uteeka udhooka”. In Arabic, it would be grammatically wrong to not use “udhooka”.

Thus “dahy” can be related to “daha” in the ayah, and either way it can be suggested that the Qur’an is punning the word and giving us a hint. Although one can say that the earth is not “egg-shaped”, it is an allegorical word much like “fire” used for jinn and “smoke” used for the sky.

Also see the ayat below (concerning the shape of the earth):


“The likeness of this world's life is only as water which We send down from the cloud, then the herbage of the earth of which men and cattle eat grows luxuriantly thereby, until when the earth puts on its golden raiment and it becomes garnished, and its people think that they have power over it, Our command comes to it, by night or by day, so We render it as reaped seed; produce, as though it had not been in existence yesterday; thus do We make clear the communications for a people who reflect.”

Qur’an 10:24


Allah (SWT) surely knows the exact timing of the Hour, but whether it is during the day or night depends on where each person lives (since Earth is “spherical”).


“He has created the heavens and the earth with the truth; He makes the night cover the day and makes the day overtake the night, and He has made the sun and the moon subservient; each one runs on to an assigned term; now surely He is the Mighty, the great Forgiver.”

Qur’an 39:5


The imagery in 39:5 is of the earth “wrapping” itself in or “wearing” the darkness over the day (implying thus that the Earth is round and spinning). The word is “yukawiru” which means “wrap” or “roll around”.

Some people claim that 25:45 suggests the sun orbits a stationary Earth:


“Have you not considered (the work of) your Lord, how He extends the shade? And if He had pleased He would certainly have made it stationary; then We have made the sun an indication/pilot/guide of it.”

Qur’an 25:45


The ayah is saying that the movement of the “shade” (night) depends upon the sun. Without the sun, the shade would certainly be stationary. Light makes it move. It does not declare that the shade “moves with the sun”. It simply states that the shade passes as we see it, rather than there simply being eternal darkness.

Let us move to the next ayah:


“Do you not see that Allah has made subservient to you whatsoever is in the earth and the ships running in the sea by His command? And He withholds the heaven from falling on the earth except with His permission; most surely Allah is Compassionate, Merciful to men.”

Qur’an 22:65


The sky includes any part of the sky which itself may perform a function (e.g. the ozone layer which would fall down without centripetal gravity). As was discussed, the sky is everything above our heads. However, the tafsir becomes clearer if we examine this ayah:


“He created the heavens without pillars as you see them…”

Qur’an 31:10


Imam Al-Razi (Rhazes) in the commentary of the Qur’an explains the ayah thus: “These celestial bodies keep to their positions. Allah raised up the heavens without visible columns. The columns are there in reality, i.e., these columns are there as Allah has so planned for protecting and sustaining the celestial bodies high above. We know that we require columns to keep a thing in its place.”

Ayah 22:65 is thus referring to the maintenance of cosmic order which is only under Allah’s (SWT) power. Without Him expanding the universe (51:47) and keeping it raised (52:5), the universe would collapse and then the sky would “fall”, “crushing” us:


“On the day when We will roll up heaven like the rolling up of the scroll for writings, as We originated the first creation, (so) We shall reproduce it; a promise (binding on Us); surely We will bring it about.”

Qur’an 21:104


There is hence no problem in taking 22:65 literally. The next ayah:


“And on the day when the heaven shall burst asunder with the clouds, and the angels shall be sent down descending (in ranks).”

Qur’an 25:25


This could simply describe the opening-up of the “edge”/“top” of the universe (perhaps there could be a black-hole) as the angels descend through the heavens. Likewise, the clouds will part:


“And if they should see a portion from the heaven coming down, they would say: Piled up clouds.”

Qur’an 52:44


Again this is the scenario of the crunching universe, or it could simply be a portion of material falling down from the sky. Either way, if the event constituting its description occurred, then if we looked up we would see something resembling piled-up cloud. Also see these ayat (relevant to 25:25):


“And even if We open to them a gateway of heaven, so that they ascend into it all the while, they would certainly say: Only our eyes have been covered over, rather we are an enchanted people.”

Qur’an 15:14-15


The next ayah:


“Do they not then look up to heaven above them how We have made it and adorned it and it has no rifts?”

Qur’an 50:6


Can we see any rifts in the time/space continuum, or in the universe itself? This ayah is perhaps best understood in conjunction with 67:3-4:


“Who created the seven heavens one above another; you see no incongruity in the creation of the Beneficent Allah; then look again, can you see any disorder? Then turn back the eye again and again; your look shall come back to you confused while it is fatigued.”

Qur’an 67:3-4


Allah (SWT) is saying that the sky above us (the galaxy, universe and so on) is perfect and working in harmony. This ayah is also specifically addressed to the disbelievers of the time (see the preceding ayat) so that any previous misconceptions about the nature of the cosmos (such as thinking it was conceived by chance (perhaps in part due to believing that the “blue sky” was a material and imperfect entity)) would be addressed. Literally, the sky above us leaves no gap in performing its functions (including sustaining all life on Earth). Likewise, the “tearing” of the fabric or laws of the heaven will lead to a visible “collapse of the sky” and everything within it (for example, the stars will “fall” from their positions and eventually darken (81:2)).


The next ayat:


“And the heaven shall cleave asunder, so that on that day it shall be frail.”

Qur’an 69:16


“On the day when the heaven shall be as molten copper.”

Qur’an 70:8


Ayah 69:16 implies that the laws of the cosmos will become weak and that there will appear a rift in the fabric of space (see ayah 25:25 and the associated note in this article). This is no surprise since when the Hour arrives there will be no further need for the universe as we know it (such arguments can also be applied to ayat 73:18, 82:1 and 84:1). There are of course other possible interpretations.

Ayah 70:8 can be interpreted from the perspective of humans in that when we look up (at that time) the sky will no longer appear to us as perfect or smooth. Rather we will see either a “cloud” of what looks like molten copper, or the sky itself will seem to swirl or dissolve (much like a black-hole). The description of “copper” is consistent with the ayah 55:37:


“And when the heaven is rent asunder, and then becomes red like red hide.”

Qur’an 55:37


(Many different things will happen during the Hour, producing different effects.)

In conclusion, the Qur’an uses the metaphor of the cosmos or heavenly sphere as a canopy (which provides benefits such as protection and adornment (e.g. the sun)), and likens its demise to the wrapping up of a tent or its splitting during a storm (ayah 55:37 suggests that the cosmos will be stripped so that it appears like a skinned camel’s hide). In this way the Qur’an appeals to all times from the time of Muhammad (SAW) to the present and the future. It is not for me to say my interpretations are correct, but these are my unbiased suggestions.


“He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.”

Qur’an 3:7


“We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.”

Qur’an 41:53


“They shall say: Yea! indeed there came to us a warner, but we rejected (him) and said: Allah has not revealed anything, you are only in a great error. And they shall say: Had we but listened or pondered…”

Qur’an 67:9-10

Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 4:18 am
by MesMorial
Of course the "daha" is quite weak. Why are we arguing on it?

Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:30 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
The Cat wrote:MbL elucubrations on 'spread out'...
MbL wrote:Yes, spread it out like a bed is spread out and is flat so someone can lay on it or rest on it. When's the last time you've seen a ball shaped bed, lunatic?.... It was spread out to make it more spacious, right? So what happens to it's shape when you spread out a singular, physical object? 4th time I've asked you this.... Beds a flat and stretch out so that people can lay on them. The earth was stretch out and made flat so that people could live on it.... And what happens to a singular physical object when it is spread out?... Why does spreading the earth make it more comfortable and habitable for people. I keep asking and you refuse to answer.... Yes, it was spread out to create ample flat space for people to live on.

What happens when a bird spread out, expand or diffuse its wings? Does it become flat? Or rather wider and ample?


Great, so relate this example to the earth. How did the earth change like a bird spreading it's wings? You won't answer that. The truth of the matter is that you are trying to grab any definition of spread that leads one away from what the Quran was really talking about. It's very dishonest.

The Cat wrote:And look at my response to you: viewtopic.php?p=161807#p161807
Which you've answered with a quote confirming me!
http://en.islamtoday.net/node/667


We've already been through this. I answered every single thing you attempted on that post in detail and explained that while they had to admit what dahaha really meant or else they would get caught and be shamed, they didn't have to admit what it implies, and of course they wouldn't, because that would put the Quran in error. So instead, they swept the clear implications under the rug. Since the Quran never gives us even a hint of the earth being round but it gives us plenty of hints or implications of it being flat, they had no choice but to try and claim that it doesn't speak of the shape of the earth at all. You are merely resorting to repeating yourself at this point because you have run out of tricks and diffusions. That's ok, I'm patient and I will continue to answer every ploy you attempt in specific detail


The Cat wrote:Skate as much as you want, you face the wall of Lane's Lexicon, an unmatched dictionary about Classical Arabic.
Edward Lane's Lexicon, on Daha...
--He spread; spread out, or forth; expanded; or extended
--He (God) made the earth wide, or ample;
--also, said of an ostrich, he expanded, and made wide...

All these terms must be understood altogether: Spread out/forth (a movement); expanded/wide; extended/ample
Just like an ostrich expand/extent the nest so to be comfortable/hospitable to shelter a whole community of eggs.


This is another repeat of what has already been answered. I answered it and asked you the appropriate questions regarding this and you have refused to answer them only to repeat the same point again. This tells me you have run out of talking points but you are so desperate to be right because you are supposed to be so much smarter than all of those "sophists", that you will do anything that it takes. Again, this is becoming pathetic.

The Cat wrote:
MbL wrote:Spreading a single physical object ultimately entails making it more flat to the extent it is spread out.

--The college of Minnesota has spread out into a dozen affiliations.


Great, so relate this specifically to the earth. Match it up.

The Cat wrote:--This manuscript has spreaded out into a million selling books.


That is not a singular physical object, it refers to multiple copies. And once again, relate this usage to the earth. Explain how it relates. You can't. It's just more desperate trickery.

The Cat wrote:--The earth spread itself out in many forms and colors.


How did the earth spread itself out? You have two aspects here. First is spreading out, then second is many forms and colors.


The Cat wrote:
--The scene spread out magic atmospheres from the lighting.


That does not relate to a singular physical object like the earth. You are merely trying to be as loose and creative as possible because you are running out of angles. Again, I smell desperation at this point.

The Cat wrote:
--The landscape spread its magnificence.


That does not relate to a singular physical object like the earth. Landscape refers to what someone sees, not an object itself. Keep trying.

The Cat wrote:You shouldn't show your ineptness that much. Next?


:lol: Yes, just make the claim and everybody will believe you. You remind me of what Muslims always do. They think that if they claim victory and act confident enough, people will simply believe them. Soirry, but that doesn't work, and I'm not going away until you properly and honestly explain yourself. Your stupid ploys and diversions are an insult to my intelligence.

The Cat wrote:MbL fantasy skating over 'to pour out'...
MbL wrote:So now the story is that Allah poured the earth out?? If it's not, then why raise this particular application of the word?? Just to dilute and confuse things?? Sorry, but that's not going to work. It's a pretty stupid and desperate attempt. Trying to diffuse the issue??? .... Was the earth poured out into outer space?.... Not in the case of a singular physical object.... So what happens to a singular object when it is spread out in all directions?? What happens to a ball of pizza dough when it is spread out in all directions?.... That's the definition we are supposed to choose for spread out?? Allah poured the earth out?? Take water from a fish bowl and pour it out. Does it become more round as it diffuses or more flat?....

You're even poor at being a sophist...


So why don't you explain to the rest of the class how Allah poured the earth out?? You won't because you are inherently evasive and dishonest, and it's my pleasure to show this fact to everyone here.

The Cat wrote:What happens when you pour out your inner thoughts, did they become flat or liquefied? :whistling:


Keep whistling, thoughts are not a physical object, so you failed once again. That was a very desperate attempt.

The Cat wrote:http://www.thefreedictionary.com/pour
2. To send forth, produce, express, or utter copiously, as if in a stream or flood:


How was the earth sent forth?? Go ahead, relate this alternate definition to the earth. You can't. These are truly horrible and desperate attempts.

The Cat wrote:poured money into the project; poured out my inner thoughts.
2. (tr) to issue, emit, etc., in a profuse way


Great, relate this to the earth. It's pretty funny, but the word pour had an arabic equivalent back then. So why did they use "spread" instead of what you claim would be the more accurate word of "pour"? Poor Cat, :lol: he's lost his mind due to delusional arrogance. Remember that song little miss little miss can't be wrong? :lol:

The Cat wrote:What happens to a girl when she's pouring out some emotions? Or when you pour out the wine to decant it?


Great, all you need to do it to relate that to the earth.


The Cat wrote:Aren't you pouring out your (liquefied?) frustrations right here, while being shown flat wrong... :tumbleweed:


:lol: Actually, I'm enjoying this immensely. I think it's great to have the opportunity to show everyone what an arrogant, insane lunatic you actually are. You seem to confuse intelligence with insanity. All that anybody has to do is to properly challenge you with specific questions and then we all find out that the emperor has no clothes. You hide your insanity and stupidity behind a guise of arrogance and intellectual snobbery. I can see right through it, and I can see that you can't stand that.

Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:46 pm
by Muhammad bin Lyin
MesMorial wrote:Of course the "daha" is quite weak. Why are we arguing on it?


What do you mean?

Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 1:58 pm
by skynightblaze
The Cat wrote:I guess this is why I was the first to debunk iffo's egyptian haman and show the hoax it was...

And get informed (for once) how the root SLM is much older than Islam.


Poor chap you never said root SLM is older than quran. What you said islam is older than quran. ISlam is religion and SLM Is a root.

Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 2:09 pm
by skynightblaze
The Cat wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:Are you trying to tell me that earth was spread out to give security? How in the world can anyone get security because of spreading? Remember the verse talks about spreading out. These words cannot be ignored..... The comfort factor can be said in case of any nest or any place that is flat. Why single out Ostrich;s nest?

Are you telling me that earth was spread out to live out flat? Should we then spread out the information? It'll spread fast... :ohmy:


I never said that. You are pretending here to create confusion and pretend as if you have got some point. I am saying the verse is talking about how Allah flattened the earth just like how Ostrich flattens the earth while laying eggs.

The Cat wrote:Now it's Edward Lane's line and you're silly as can be to state that all flat places are comfortable.
And spread does not entail flat. Explain to me how a bird spreading out its wings becomes flat?


Do the wings become flat or do they become round when the bird spreads its wings? Wings are the object here and they no way become round when spread out. The rest of the body of the bird is not spread out but only the wings and hence wings become flat when spread out and not the rest of the body of the bird.

In case of quran it talks about earth being spread out and not just a part of earth being spread out like your bird analogy.Atleast get your analogies right. :lol:

The Cat wrote:That's a silly logic especially when confronted with some vague term such as 'dahaha' (spread out, wide, ample as per Lane's Lexicon).


Spreading out is a vague term?? WE easily know what shape an object takes when spread out so where is the vagueness here?

The Cat wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:how about the tafsirs?? They clearly state what the verses in connection mean. You should have no problem in accepting them because you claim that you take them as historical sources.

More silliness: this argument ain't about history.


It's about context or history of that verse stupid stupid troll. Every verse has a context and that context/history behind the verse can be seen in tafsir. Tell us why one should reject the tafsirs here.

The Cat wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:The allegory has to make sense. Its a stupid allegory if it referred to the nest of OStrich to indicate comfort because same can be said about any place that is spacious.

Such as the earth, thank you.


You havent explained why nest of Ostrich has been referred . Please explain why nest of an Ostrich is an appropriate analogy.

The Cat wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:There is a huge difference between saying EArth is like cradle and bed AND saying EArth is comfortable like Cradle and bed. All the verses say is EArth is spread out like a cradle or bed .

So, according to you, a bed or cradle aren't mean to be comfortable, sheltering, hospitable? Are you a fakir? :nono:


Please try understanding before you open your stupid mouth. What did quran say exactly??

Did it say Earth is comfortable like a carpet /cradle/ bed? OR did it say earth is spread out like a cradle/bed??

If its the latter then it's specifically talking about FLAT EARTH.

Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2011 3:39 pm
by skynightblaze
Just to let MBL know how this sh!thead is manipulating his words. Here is the actual quote from CAT..

The Cat wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:
The Cat wrote:16.123: And afterward We inspired thee (Muhammad, saying):
Follow the religion of Abraham, as one by nature upright. He was not of the idolaters.

So why follow Muhammad, himself ordered to follow Abraham?
That's the shitty logic of the Sunnites you keep parroting.

Muhammad was asked to follow Abraham and hence muslims cant follow Muhammad. A team leader is asked to follow the Project Manager and hence a junior level programmer cant follow the team leader. :roflmao:

Read again the underline part.

The word translated 'religion' is Millata, meaning path, trace, way of example. The word 'nature upright' is the Arabic Hanifa (Hanif).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanif

--It confirms that Islam is much older than the Koran.
--2.124 gives the title of IMAM solely to Abraham; Isaac, Jacob (21.72-73) and Moses (46.12)!

Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Fri Sep 02, 2011 8:23 am
by skynightblaze
Mbl wrote:This is another repeat of what has already been answered.


Who said repetition is not allowed and who said you have to make sense?? :lol: Welcome to CAT's world where things are different.

You are mistaken to believe that you will have the patience to reply to this person till the end. Let me tell you from my experience... He will be the last person to post and he will troll you out . Believe me you wont have the patience to repeat the same things again and again. When he has exhausted your patience and you stop replying to him he will quote the links of this debate else where and will tell you that you are yet to answer his posts and how he has beaten you. You are underestimating the power of trolls :lol: He and BMZ share common characteristics.Both of them believe in the power of typing and both of them think that as long as they type and and they make the last post they win! :lol: You might think I am exaggerating but all you have to do is keep debating him and see the results for yourself. There is no better teacher than experience :D

Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:39 am
by The Cat
MbL wrote:
The Cat wrote:What happens when a bird spread out, expand or diffuse its wings? Does it become flat? Or rather wider and ample?

Great, so relate this example to the earth. How did the earth change like a bird spreading it's wings? You won't answer that. The truth of the matter is that you are trying to grab any definition of spread that leads one away from what the Quran was really talking about. It's very dishonest....

What's dishonest here is your attempt to squeeze out 'flatness' from of the Koranic meanings, none of them referring to anything flat.
Not so in ALL the related verses: 2.22; 13.3; 15.19; 29.56; 40.64; 43.10; 50.7; 51.48; 55.10; 71.19; 78.6; 79.30-32; 88.20.

How can 'spread out' indicates flatness while the earth includes raging seas, hills, abyssal valleys and ever-snowy mountains?

55.10 (Shakir)
And the earth, He has set it for living creatures;

79.30 (Shakir)
And the earth, He expanded it after that.

88.20 (Shakir)
And the earth, how it is made a vast expanse?

In MbL's logic vast expanse, set for living creatures, expanded resting-place mean... flatness!
Out of luck he goes on to define spreading: ''Spreading a single physical object ultimately entails
making it more flat to the extent it is spread out.
'' But he's out of sophistry this time again...

MbL wrote:
The Cat wrote:--The college of Minnesota has spread out into a dozen affiliations.
--This manuscript has spreaded out into a million selling books.
--The earth spread itself out in many forms and colors.
--The scene spread out magic atmospheres from the lighting.
--The landscape spread its magnificence.

--Great, so relate this specifically to the earth. Match it up.
--That is not a singular physical object, it refers to multiple copies.
--How did the earth spread itself out? You have two aspects here. First is spreading out, then second is many forms and colors.
--That does not relate to a singular physical object like the earth.
--That does not relate to a singular physical object like the earth. Landscape refers to what someone sees, not an object itself.

I've answered your silly assertion that:
''Spreading a single physical object ultimately entails making it more flat to the extent it is spread out.''

A single physical object maybe the earth, the sun or a star, as well as a manuscript, a scene, a landscape, a pencil, etc.
Just like the tectonic plates spread out to form nowadays continents. Each one of them spreading from former Pangaea.

Sorry but your ultimate attempt falls flat too!

MbL wrote:
The Cat wrote:Skate as much as you want, you face the wall of Lane's Lexicon, an unmatched dictionary about Classical Arabic.
Edward Lane's Lexicon, on Daha...
--He spread; spread out, or forth; expanded; or extended
--He (God) made the earth wide, or ample;
--also, said of an ostrich, he expanded, and made wide...

All these terms must be understood altogether: Spread out/forth (a movement); expanded/wide; extended/ample
Just like an ostrich expand/extent the nest so to be comfortable/hospitable to shelter a whole community of eggs.

This is another repeat of what has already been answered. I answered it and asked you the appropriate questions regarding this and you have refused to answer them only to repeat the same point again....

Please link us to where this have been properly refuted or stand corrected.
Therein you've admitted that: ''Wide only refers to size, not shape''.

What the Lexicon says debunk your assertion that the Koranic 'dahaha' (spread out) refers to your delusive 'shape'.
Period. Get it??

I enjoy your sophist skating, especially when you're down flat on your nose.

Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 3:57 am
by The Cat
skynightblaze wrote:
The Cat wrote:Now it's Edward Lane's line and you're silly as can be to state that all flat places are comfortable.
And spread does not entail flat. Explain to me how a bird spreading out its wings becomes flat?

Wings are the object here and they no way become round when spread out. The rest of the body of the bird is not spread out but only the wings and hence wings become flat when spread out and not the rest of the body of the bird.

Please show us how the wings of a bird are flat? Is this winged or flat? ________

skynightblaze wrote:
The Cat wrote:That's a silly logic especially when confronted with some vague term such as 'dahaha' (spread out, wide, ample as per Lane's Lexicon).

WE easily know what shape an object takes when spread out so where is the vagueness here?

So what shape has a bird when it spreads its wings?

To defend your position you must squeeze one definition, which is disproven by Lane's Lexicon.

http://www.synonym.com/synonyms/spread-out/
Sense 1: diffuse, spread, spread out, fan out, spread, distribute.
Sense 2: string out, spread out, arrange, set up.
Sense 3: spread, scatter, spread out, circulate, pass around, pass on, distribute.
Sense 4: expand, spread out, grow.
Sense 5:: turn out, splay, spread out, rotate, turn.
Sense 6: disperse, dissipate, scatter, spread out, separate, part, split.
Sense 7: unfold, spread, spread out, open, undo.

http://thesaurus.com/browse/spread
Synonyms: arrange, array, be displayed, be distributed, bloat, branch off, broaden, cast, circulate, coat, cover, daub,
develop, diffuse, dilate, disperse, diverge, enlarge, escalate, even out, expand, extend, flatten, flow, gloss, increase....

skynightblaze wrote:
The Cat wrote:More silliness: this argument ain't about history.

It's about context or history of that verse stupid stupid troll. Every verse has a context and that context/history behind the verse can be seen in tafsir. Tell us why one should reject the tafsirs here.

How about Ibn Kathir (and Ibn Abbas) upon 91.6?
http://www.islam-universe.com/tafsir_ib ... 58381.html
Mujahid said, "Tahaha means He spread it out.'' Al-`Awfi reported from Ibn `Abbas that he said, "This means what He created in it.'' `
Ali bin Abi Talhah reported from Ibn `Abbas that he said, "Tahaha means that He proportioned it.'' Mujahid, Qatadah, Ad-Dahhak,
As-Suddi, Ath-Thawri, Abu Salih and Ibn Zayd all said that (Tahaha) means, He spread it out. Allah then says, (By Nafs, and
Ma Sawwaha (Who apportioned it).) meaning, He created it sound and well-proportioned upon the correct nature (Al-Fitrah).


_________________
skynightblaze wrote:you never said root SLM is older than quran. What you said islam is older than quran. ISlam is religion and SLM Is a root.

SLM is the root for Islam. Prove me wrong...

skynightblaze wrote:
The Cat wrote:The word translated 'religion' is Millata, meaning path, trace, way of example. The word 'nature upright' is the Arabic Hanifa (Hanif).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanif

--It confirms that Islam is much older than the Koran.
--2.124 gives the title of IMAM solely to Abraham; Isaac, Jacob (21.72-73) and Moses (46.12)!

this sh!thead is manipulating his words.

Now you also have to prove that hanif was an expression first stemming out from the Koran.

Apart from this, anyone using expressions like 'sh!thead' or 'EFFED in arse' should be warned or even banned.
Not anymore! Now figure out why FFI isn't what it used to be...

Re: Who was Haman

PostPosted: Sat Sep 03, 2011 12:51 pm
by iffo
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
iffo wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
The story of Genesis was partly derived from stories that came before it. So which verses specifically are you talking about? Even if there are verses that are dubious, the Bible is a modular collection of books over thousands of years. We could get rid of the entire book of Genesis and still keep the rest of the Bible. It's not my fault that Muhammad claimed the Quran to be the letter for letter dictation of Allah, and therefore, one mistake, just one, and the entire thing becomes a lie. I didn't make that rule up and decide to portray the Quran this way by writing it in first person form rather than writing it as a narrator retelling a story. Muhammad made that up. So blame him for the pickle you inevitably find yourself in. What was supposed to be the Quran's ultimate strength ultimately turns out to be it's ultimate weakness. Muhammad wasn't a very good thinker and didn't think things through very well.


In other words human wrote that story (Genesis ) and it is total garbage , correct ? so you have garbage in your holy book right?


It's not the letter for letter dictation, so yes, there could be parts the storyteller got wrong. That part of Genesis might be wrong or incorporated into Genesis by men. The only problem I see is that it seems to make everything earth centric. just like the Quran does. But one is a story told by a story teller and is only one part of one book of many books, the other is one, singular, non modular, monolithic book that clearly represents itself as the letter for letter dictation of God. If the Quran didn't do that, I could give it a lot more serious consideration and even make excuses for it. But it did, so no excuse can be made for it. One error, just one, and the entire thing becomes a very questionable lie. And, of course, there are countless errors all over the place right in front of somebody's nose.



Is this the only problem you see in Genises? That's an under statement. Its wrong from left to right, its a pile of sh!t. You been as usual hypocrite.
Well luckily we caught Genesis1 because it has science in it, and it got caught. What about other stories are wrong as well. What about if someone argues all the stories are bogus and men made crap just like Genises ......... Stories about Jesus are men made fairy tales .....So then how can you base a religion on the books which are bogus and wrong.