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Why does Allah test us?

Shari'a, errancies, miracles and science

Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby Muhammad bin Lyin » Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:26 pm

skynightblaze wrote:
Muhhamad Bin Lyin wrote:This is the Muslim and it's my goal to show people the truth about them. All you have to do is to properly challenge their errors and you watch their calm facade or act fall apart and you get to see what's really beneath that act or facade of calmness.


I said the same thing over the other forum CEMB but believe me not one supported me.


Why would you think a Muslim would? Or even if they did, why would you think they would publicly admit that? Also, what is CEMB?
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Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby skynightblaze » Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:32 pm

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:
Muhhamad Bin Lyin wrote:This is the Muslim and it's my goal to show people the truth about them. All you have to do is to properly challenge their errors and you watch their calm facade or act fall apart and you get to see what's really beneath that act or facade of calmness.


I said the same thing over the other forum CEMB but believe me not one supported me.


Why would you think a Muslim would? Or even if they did, why would you think they would publicly admit that? Also, what is CEMB?


CEMB is council of ex muslims. I am talking about these Ex muslims who opposed me with my claim and not muslims.Its the same forum I had debate with master Bmz .YOu are a member there .
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
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Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby Muhammad bin Lyin » Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:40 pm

skynightblaze wrote:CEMB is council of ex muslims. I am talking about these Ex muslims who opposed me with my claim and not muslims.Its the same forum I had debate with master Bmz .YOu are a member there .


What would be their objection to someone saying that all you have to do is to properly challenge Muslims to see what's really beneath the act or facade of calmness and confidence?
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Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby skynightblaze » Sat Feb 13, 2010 5:43 pm

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:CEMB is council of ex muslims. I am talking about these Ex muslims who opposed me with my claim and not muslims.Its the same forum I had debate with master Bmz .YOu are a member there .


What would be their objection to someone saying that all you have to do is to properly challenge Muslims to see what's really beneath the act or facade of calmness and confidence?


Check this thread. Their arguments would be emotional appeals.

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index ... pic=8551.0

The argument is they dont tell lies . They dont do it consciously. I am yet to understand how anyone can make false claims unconsciously even when convincing proofs are shown to him which indicate otherwise.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
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Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby Muhammad bin Lyin » Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:19 pm

skynightblaze wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:CEMB is council of ex muslims. I am talking about these Ex muslims who opposed me with my claim and not muslims.Its the same forum I had debate with master Bmz .YOu are a member there .


What would be their objection to someone saying that all you have to do is to properly challenge Muslims to see what's really beneath the act or facade of calmness and confidence?


Check this thread. Their arguments would be emotional appeals.

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index ... pic=8551.0

The argument is they dont tell lies . They dont do it consciously. I am yet to understand how anyone can make false claims unconsciously even when convincing proofs are shown to him which indicate otherwise.



My point isn't about whether they are purposefully lying to others or simply delusional and lying to themselves. I'm not sure. Sometimes I think they are, and sometimes not. Or, maybe it's a little of both, I can't know for sure. I'd like to say that they are the only ones who could know for sure, but even they can't if they are lying to themselves without even realizing it. Either way, it's still pretty bad. My point was merely how their stories fall apart and how you watch their facade change when properly challenged.
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Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby charleslemartel » Sat Feb 13, 2010 6:32 pm

MBL,

I think SNB should have quoted this part of your post:

See how these people just pull any lump of crap they can possibly find and throw it at the wall in hopes that any of it sticks? And they could care less whether any of it is actually the truth or not, just as long as it works and makes the problem appear to go away. Very dishonest people when it comes to religious discussion because they have to be dishonest with us and themselves in order to maintain their faith and Islam's image.
Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
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Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby Eagle » Sat Feb 13, 2010 8:01 pm

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:OK, was it so hard for the Quran to say "do you think you will enter heaven while YOU yet not know...."?


That is what that repeated Quran terminology means, and what a basic student of the Quran immidiately understands upon reading it. It is a feature of all religious scriptures -let alone common language with its expressions or idioms- of conveying a message/ideology without literally spelling out the message/ideology.
What did the prophet Ibrahim mean when he prayed Allah in your Torah, that his son and my ancestor Ismail Gen17:18"might live before thee"? An ignorant of the Torah who isolates each verse in disregard of the entire book's guidelines can interpret this phrase in many ways alien to its true meaning, a meaning revealed by its use all over the Torah for anything sacrificed to Allah or dedicated to the service of Allah Gen17:1,Deut10:8,Exod28:35,29:11,42,23,26 and throughout Leviticus. We know today who fits that description and through which nation Allah heard Ibrahim's prayers for Ismail, no matter how much the disbelievers hate it:

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ

"And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House:
Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing: Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
Our Lord! and raise up in them a Messenger from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise...We have sent among you a Messenger from among you who recites to you Our communications and purifies you and teaches you the Book and the wisdom and teaches you that which you did not know. Therefore remember Me, I will remember you, and be thankful to Me, and do not be ungrateful to Me."


Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:6 different times that says the same exact thing in merely altered words? How many times did it havcve to tell us that Allah spread the earth out? Was that a warning for us?


The signs of nature repeatedly drawn to man's attention are primarly evidence for the existence of a Generous Creator, and the consequent inevitability of a Day of Resurrection and Reckonning. These signs are meaningful only to a believer.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:You consider your stories to be educational?


It was a general comment, that there will always be someone to make another look ignorant. Do you feel targeted.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Kathir also said God guides who he wills, and it's even the stinking title of the tafsir chapter.


Ibn Kathir wrote Arabic not English. He wrote "Allah yahdi man yasha" not "God guides who He wills". He then proceeded in confirming what the Quran says all over, and what you and others have been educated on viewtopic.php?f=21&p=92702#p92709, about Allah's guidance being contingent on an initial will to be guided.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:If infinity cannot be surpassed, then that means God cannot surpass infinity.


Yahweh is infinite, nothing can share that absolute atribute of infinity with him or you would have 2 Yahwehs. And even if something was made infinite like your Yahweh, infinity cannot surpass infinity meaning however big your big mac is, your Yahweh will always finish it along with a portion of fries.
Or is infinity another of Yahweh's exclusive absolute attributes you reject as you do with his omnipotence and omniscience.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
Eagle wrote:Good that you reluctantly submit to the truth once again. You claimed before that meteors always chased the jinns.


WRONG LIAR.


You mean, a lie such as this where you disputed the Quran on the fact meteors started chasing the jinns in the times of Revelation not before, by bringing what you thought proved that meteors chased the jinns since creation?

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5256&start=240#p93326
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
Eagle wrote:The meteors chasing jinns is always in the context of revelation.


Isn't this talking about how things are made from the beginning?
67:3..
67:4..
67:5..


It is the same ignorance raised (twice) against another member who also educated you that meteors started chasing the jinns in the times of Revelation, not before:

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5256&start=300#p94599
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
debunker wrote:Wrong! The Quran says that shooting stars were part of the natural order UNTIL the advent of Islam, they were assigned an additional job of chasing Jinns too.


First of all, how can a falling object be said to chase anything? Second of all, 67:5 doesn't agree with that. Here's it's talking about creation itself.
# 67:3..
# 67:4..
# 67:5..

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
debunker wrote:The Quran NEVER claimed that shooting stars were chasing Jinns since forever... it CLEARLY says only during the times of Muhammed they were assigned the supernatural job of chasing Jinns. We've been over this before but here are the verses again:
072.008..
072.009..


If we look at Allah talking about the creation of the heavens in 67 and how he decorated them and made these decorations as missiles, it refutes what you attempt.


You cannot keep track of what you say and even if you do, you will be submitted to the Truth by the Quran as you submitted here reluctantly, because this is what the Quran does when falsehood is presented against it, it annuls it 41:42"No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it: It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise".

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:It simply does not say this happened so that the revelation would not be interrupted.


No one said anything about meteors chasing jinns so that they cannot interrupt the Revelation. And even if they wanted to, they would be overpowered by one selected carrier of the Revelation, described as 81:19-21"an honored messenger, the processor of strength, having an honorable place with the Lord of the Dominion, One (to be) obeyed, and faithful in trust".

It is the pristine purity of that Revelation that is protected from any type of evil interference during its descent from Heaven to the point that evil ones are not even allowed to hear it while being revealed 26:210-212"No evil ones have brought down this (Revelation), It would neither suit them nor would they be able (to produce it). Indeed they have been removed far from even hearing it" and if they do not submit to the warnings and exceptionaly attempt to hear it while being revealed, they are destroyed 37:10"Except him who snatches off but once, then there follows him a brightly shining flame".
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Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby Muhammad bin Lyin » Sat Feb 13, 2010 10:57 pm

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:OK, was it so hard for the Quran to say "do you think you will enter heaven while YOU yet not know...."?


That is what that repeated Quran terminology means, and what a basic student of the Quran immidiately understands upon reading it. It is a feature of all religious scriptures -let alone common language with its expressions or idioms- of conveying a message/ideology without literally spelling out the message/ideology.
What did the prophet Ibrahim mean when he prayed Allah in your Torah, that his son and my ancestor Ismail Gen17:18"might live before thee"? An ignorant of the Torah who isolates each verse in disregard of the entire book's guidelines can interpret this phrase in many ways alien to its true meaning, a meaning revealed by its use all over the Torah for anything sacrificed to Allah or dedicated to the service of Allah Gen17:1,Deut10:8,Exod28:35,29:11,42,23,26 and throughout Leviticus. We know today who fits that description and through which nation Allah heard Ibrahim's prayers for Ismail, no matter how much the disbelievers hate it:


First of all, in my last post to you, I believe that I was overly offensive and I offer my most sincere and humblest apologies to you as there is never any reason to behave that way.

Eagle wrote:What did the prophet Ibrahim mean when he prayed Allah in your Torah, that his son and my ancestor Ismail Gen17:18"might live before thee"?


It doesn't say what you say.

15 God also said to Abraham, "As for Sarai your wife, you are no longer to call her Sarai; her name will be Sarah. 16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her."

17 Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, "Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?" 18 And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!" 19 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him. 20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year."

So I have no idea what you are talking about. How can you alter the clear meaning of this verse to suit your own ideas?


Eagle wrote:Now, that being said,


Yes, that mistake being said, as clearly displayed via the words of the scriptures themselves. So let's have a look at what you prepose, in a respectful manner,

Eagle wrote:
بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ

"And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House:
Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing: Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
Our Lord! and raise up in them a Messenger from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise...We have sent among you a Messenger from among you who recites to you Our communications and purifies you and teaches you the Book and the wisdom and teaches you that which you did not know. Therefore remember Me, I will remember you, and be thankful to Me, and do not be ungrateful to Me."


Where is this from, the self confirming Quran? Can't you understand the problem when a script can only be true because it confirms itself? Shouldn't other things beside the scriptures themselves confirm it is true?

Eagle wrote: let's have a look at what you purpose, in a respectful manner,
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:6 different times that says the same exact thing in merely altered words? How many times did it havcve to tell us that Allah spread the earth out? Was that a warning for us?


The signs of nature repeatedly drawn to man's attention are primarly evidence for the existence of a Generous Creator, and the consequent inevitability of a Day of Resurrection and Reckonning. These signs are meaningful only to a believer.


Understood, but you said that it repeats it's points so many times because it needs to clearly and strongly warn about the punishment we could face. But I gave examples talked about the same repetition, when there was no warning of punishment, and you ignored it as though I never said it. So your idea ends up not working via reasoning and logical analysis. If you wish to use your own sense of reasoning that deviates from common, obvious reasoning, that's your choice. But you have to explain why your own personal invention of reasoning is supposed to be valid. Can you understand that?

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:You consider your stories to be educational?


It was a general comment, that there will always be someone to make another look ignorant. Do you feel targeted.


No, I just think your inventions don't even pan out and that there would even be Muslims that would say this

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Kathir also said God guides who he wills, and it's even the stinking title of the tafsir chapter.


Eagle wrote:Ibn Kathir wrote Arabic not English. He wrote "Allah yahdi man yasha" not "God guides who He wills". He then proceeded in confirming what the Quran says all over, and what you and others have been educated on viewtopic.php?f=21&p=92702#p92709, about Allah's guidance being contingent on an initial will to be guided.


Why was the title of that tafsir, God guides whom he wills rather than God guides whom wills to be guided? I already explained to you that he thought that Allah himself makes a direct decision as to who is to be guided at any single time based on who Allah himself deems to be worthy of guidance based on their behavior.

\
Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:If infinity cannot be surpassed, then that means God cannot surpass infinity.


Yahweh is infinite, nothing can share that absolute atribute of infinity with him or you would have 2 Yahwehs. And even if something was made infinite like your Yahweh, infinity cannot surpass infinity meaning however big your big mac is, your Yahweh will always finish it along with a portion of fries.


I'll ask the question again. Can Allah surpass infinity?? Yes or no, please. You can ask me yes or no questions, and I will answer them. But you don't. So who's being honest and straightforward and who is not? Think about it, if you don't already know that.

Eagle wrote:
Or is infinity another of Yahweh's exclusive absolute attributes you reject as you do with his omnipotence and omniscience.


Makes no sense and doesn't answer the question at hand. Can God surpass infinity?? You said nothing can. I'm only going based on what you actually said, at this time.
Last edited by Muhammad bin Lyin on Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby skynightblaze » Sun Feb 14, 2010 4:29 am

Muhhamad Bin Lyin wrote:My point isn't about whether they are purposefully lying to others or simply delusional and lying to themselves. I'm not sure. Sometimes I think they are, and sometimes not. Or, maybe it's a little of both, I can't know for sure. I'd like to say that they are the only ones who could know for sure, but even they can't if they are lying to themselves without even realizing it. Either way, it's still pretty bad. My point was merely how their stories fall apart and how you watch their facade change when properly challenged.


You have put here plenty of threads say like "Why Allah tests us". After an exhaustive discussion wherein you debunk all the possible muslim arguments what would you say about a muslim who comes the next day with the same claim that this is not an error?

The pre condition for my argument to hold true is that you debunk all the possible arguments of the muslims. I cant blame them at initial stage when they are debating because to reach the truth people are bound to resist and provide all possible
arguments in defense of islam. My objection starts the moment they dont accept our claims even when there is no argument of theirs which isnt debunked by us. Thats where the problem with most muslims lie.

We dont find this tendency in kafirs.We leave the place of debate or accept that we are in error.Also a point to be noted is that when they tell the kafir that your version of islam is wrong and mine is correct then they are lying not only to themselves but also to the kafir because now they are no more in ignorance stage after the debate so its not just they are lying to themselves or deceiving themselves. They cheat both when they make false statements even after being exposed clearly.

The part in red supports my point. They dont honestly accept that they are wrong so certainly we cant say they speak the truth.I see no way how any one can be called merely delusional or ignorant once he has been shown how wrong he is.The only question that one can ask is can we blame them for this behavior considering faith is a difficult thing to give up? The answer is we need to give them some concession but definitely not for eternity.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
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Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby Muhammad bin Lyin » Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:31 pm

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
Eagle wrote:Good that you reluctantly submit to the truth once again. You claimed before that meteors always chased the jinns.


WRONG LIAR.


You mean, a lie such as this where you disputed the Quran on the fact meteors started chasing the jinns in the times of Revelation not before, by bringing what you thought proved that meteors chased the jinns since creation?

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5256&start=240#p93326
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
Eagle wrote:The meteors chasing jinns is always in the context of revelation.


Isn't this talking about how things are made from the beginning?
67:3..
67:4..
67:5..


It is the same ignorance raised (twice) against another member who also educated you that meteors started chasing the jinns in the times of Revelation, not before:


All i did was to ask a question. See how you try to twist things? But if we want to say they started chasing them only at the time of revelation, that's fine too as the point I was getting at is that nowhere does it say they stopped chasing the jinn after the revelation, and i know precisely why you are so desperate to add this.

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
Wrong! The Quran says that shooting stars were part of the natural order UNTIL the advent of Islam, they were assigned an additional job of chasing Jinns too.


Well, that's what the Quran appears to say. It doesn't say, and we have made the stars and LATER made them as missiles to chase the jinn. But either way, it really doesn't change my argument, does it? Does it?

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:First of all, how can a falling object be said to chase anything? Second of all, 67:5 doesn't agree with that. Here's it's talking about creation itself.
# 67:3..
# 67:4..
# 67:5..


... it CLEARLY says only during the times of Muhammed they were assigned the supernatural job of chasing Jinns.


No, it does not say ONLY during the time of Muhammad anywhere. Why do you insert these things that simply are not there? There's nothing at all that says this stopped after the revelation. If there is, then i challenge you, point blank, to provide the verses, but you and I both know that you can't, and that this is merely your own arbitrary invention, and I know exactly why you invented this and I asked you three times now to tell everybody why you are choosing this angle of explanation and all three times you have ignored the request. So who's honest and straightforward and who is not? What have I not attempted to answer from you? Nothing. What questions or point of mine have you refused to answer or ignore? Plenty. Are you feeling fair and honest right now?

Eagle wrote: We've been over this before but here are the verses again:
072.008..
072.009..


OK, that's a good point. So they started at revelation. I was merely asking because 67 suggests something different.


Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:It simply does not say this happened so that the revelation would not be interrupted.


No one said anything about meteors chasing jinns so that they cannot interrupt the Revelation.


I'm going to go back and check your posts because I think I remember that you indeed said this very thing. i don't think I imagined this. But you even say "interfere" in this post. So interrupt, interfere, what's the difference?? Same thing. Why would you attempt such a little technicality? Says something about your mindset.

Eagle wrote: And even if they wanted to, they would be overpowered by one selected carrier of the Revelation, described as 81:19-21"an honored messenger, the processor of strength, having an honorable place with the Lord of the Dominion, One (to be) obeyed, and faithful in trust".

It is the pristine purity of that Revelation that is protected from any type of evil interference during its descent from Heaven to the point that evil ones are not even allowed to hear it while being revealed 26:210-212"No evil ones have brought down this (Revelation), It would neither suit them nor would they be able (to produce it). Indeed they have been removed far from even hearing it" and if they do not submit to the warnings and exceptionally attempt to hear it while being revealed, they are destroyed 37:10"Except him who snatches off but once, then there follows him a brightly shining flame".


But how are they supposed to interfere with this when the Quran was penned in heaven at the beginning of time and Gabriel personally came down to earth to Muhammad to reveal it? How are the jinn supposed to interfere with the revelation? Is the revelation being spoken in heaven when it was supposed to have been penned at the beginning of time? See the problem? Could they listen to Allah while he talks to Gabriel? [/quote]
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Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby Muhammad bin Lyin » Sun Feb 14, 2010 3:53 pm

skynightblaze wrote:
Muhhamad Bin Lyin wrote:My point isn't about whether they are purposefully lying to others or simply delusional and lying to themselves. I'm not sure. Sometimes I think they are, and sometimes not. Or, maybe it's a little of both, I can't know for sure. I'd like to say that they are the only ones who could know for sure, but even they can't if they are lying to themselves without even realizing it. Either way, it's still pretty bad. My point was merely how their stories fall apart and how you watch their facade change when properly challenged.


You have put here plenty of threads say like "Why Allah tests us". After an exhaustive discussion wherein you debunk all the possible muslim arguments what would you say about a muslim who comes the next day with the same claim that this is not an error?

The pre condition for my argument to hold true is that you debunk all the possible arguments of the muslims. I cant blame them at initial stage when they are debating because to reach the truth people are bound to resist and provide all possible
arguments in defense of islam. My objection starts the moment they dont accept our claims even when there is no argument of theirs which isnt debunked by us. Thats where the problem with most muslims lie.

We dont find this tendency in kafirs.We leave the place of debate or accept that we are in error.Also a point to be noted is that when they tell the kafir that your version of islam is wrong and mine is correct then they are lying not only to themselves but also to the kafir because now they are no more in ignorance stage after the debate so its not just they are lying to themselves or deceiving themselves. They cheat both when they make false statements even after being exposed clearly.

The part in red supports my point. They dont honestly accept that they are wrong so certainly we cant say they speak the truth.I see no way how any one can be called merely delusional or ignorant once he has been shown how wrong he is.The only question that one can ask is can we blame them for this behavior considering faith is a difficult thing to give up? The answer is we need to give them some concession but definitely not for eternity.



What I kind of meant by the facade, was the way they always try to act calm, peaceful, all spiritual and stuff, but it's a facade and you get to see how they are actually angry, stubborn and even fearful people if you ask the right questions.
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Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby Q » Mon Feb 15, 2010 5:57 am

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Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby Wootah » Mon Feb 15, 2010 7:42 am



My reply to this article:

As per paragraph one, do you really believe bad qualities also develop to the utmost in non believers? There are many, many, many, good non believers that have lived and died and not shown a trace of having their non belief refined.

As per paragraph two, do you really believe we need pain and suffering so as to not go asleep during life? Joy and fun are far more exciting and better tools for keeping us awake. Are you comfortable with a God that knowingly inflicts pain and suffering on everyone?

On divine guidance. Why does Allah not help guide those that most need guidance? Do you in your life help those that need help or those that don't?

Are you aware that in your article you said, "Allah (awj) must create “problems”". Is creating death and tragedy a sign of a good God?

Are you aware that the article completely misuses the word scientist when it says, "To put it simply, Allah (awj) is like a scientist examining each individual human being." A scientist conducts a test and attempts to get a repeatable result. Allah seems to conduct the same test and get wildly different results. A scientist would examine their method, not blame the results.

Your article said “When Allah’s servants commit a sin, He tests them with hardship until they repent and cease committing sins and heed Allah’s admonishment.” Do you believe that anyone suffering hardship has committed a sin and is being punished for it? Suppose you came home and heard your neighbors house had burnt down would you know that (s)he must of sinned recently? If someone is born disabled are they being punished for a sin?

I respectfully ask for your replies to the above.

I also offer the Christian perspective. We seem to have a very different picture of sin between Christianity and Islam. You seem to be suggesting sin gets punished in this life by Allah sending hardships and that a person under hardship is a person that has sinned. In the Bible Jesus teaches different:
Mark 2.17 - On hearing this, Jesus said to them, "It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners." Also John 9 and Luke 13 4-5 Jesus clearly indicates suffering is not a sign of a person having committed a sin.

That was a fascinating insight into your views on sin Q. I'd love to know if the article you linked is what most Muslims think.
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Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby Muhammad bin Lyin » Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:05 am

Eagle wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:OK, was it so hard for the Quran to say "do you think you will enter heaven while YOU yet not know...."?


That is what that repeated Quran terminology means, and what a basic student of the Quran immidiately understands upon reading it. It is a feature of all religious scriptures -let alone common language with its expressions or idioms- of conveying a message/ideology without literally spelling out the message/ideology.
What did the prophet Ibrahim mean when he prayed Allah in your Torah, that his son and my ancestor Ismail Gen17:18"might live before thee"? An ignorant of the Torah who isolates each verse in disregard of the entire book's guidelines can interpret this phrase in many ways alien to its true meaning, a meaning revealed by its use all over the Torah for anything sacrificed to Allah or dedicated to the service of Allah Gen17:1,Deut10:8,Exod28:35,29:11,42,23,26 and throughout Leviticus. We know today who fits that description and through which nation Allah heard Ibrahim's prayers for Ismail, no matter how much the disbelievers hate it:

بِسْمِ اللَّهِ الرَّحْمَٰنِ الرَّحِيمِ

"And when Ibrahim and Ismail raised the foundations of the House:
Our Lord! accept from us; surely Thou art the Hearing, the Knowing: Our Lord! and make us both submissive to Thee and (raise) from our offspring a nation submitting to Thee, and show us our ways of devotion and turn to us (mercifully), surely Thou art the Oft-returning (to mercy), the Merciful.
Our Lord! and raise up in them a Messenger from among them who shall recite to them Thy communications and teach them the Book and the wisdom, and purify them; surely Thou art the Mighty, the Wise...We have sent among you a Messenger from among you who recites to you Our communications and purifies you and teaches you the Book and the wisdom and teaches you that which you did not know. Therefore remember Me, I will remember you, and be thankful to Me, and do not be ungrateful to Me."


That's pretty funny. You use the Quran to confirm itself and it's claim of Muhammad being a prophet is confirmed by the Quran which confirms Muhammad which confirms the Quran itself, which in turn confirms Muhammad. So Muhammad confirms the Quran that confirms itself and hence confirms Muhammad himself for himself and all others. Whew!!! Shees. :crazy: Way to go. :lol:
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Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby Q » Tue Feb 16, 2010 4:22 am

FYI/E: Basic Islamic concepts..

Qur'an 2:155
وَلَنَبْلُوَنَّكُمْ بِشَيْءٍ مِّنَ الْخَوفْ وَالْجُوعِ وَنَقْصٍ مِّنَ الأَمَوَالِ وَالأنفُسِ وَالثَّمَرَاتِ وَبَشِّرِ الصَّابِرِينَ {155}
[Shakir 2:155] And We will most certainly try you with somewhat of fear and hunger and loss of property and lives and fruits; and give good news to the patient,
[Yusufali 2:155] Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere,
[Pickthal 2:155] And surely We shall try you with something of fear and hunger, and loss of wealth and lives and crops; but give glad tidings to the steadfast,




-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Question: Considering the verse of the Qur`an in Surah 32, verse 13 which reads, “Had We wished We would have given every soul its guidance,” - can it not be concluded that Allah (awj) has not desired the guidance of all humanity? If Allah (awj) had desired the guidance of all humanity He would have willed such, but obviously He has not. Why?
Answer:
http://www.al-islam.org/faith_reason/14.htm


The Original Sin of Adam and Eve

http://www.al-islam.org/faith_reason/24.htm

Heaven and Hell
http://www.al-islam.org/faith_reason/22.htm

Non-muslims and Hell
Question: We know of many people around the world who are not Muslims or Shi`a but are nevertheless individuals of good conduct; for example, non-Muslims are responsible for many inventions. Is it right that they all deserve to be punished in Hell because they are not Muslims?

Answer:
http://www.al-islam.org/faith_reason/15.htm
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Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby Wootah » Tue Feb 16, 2010 7:06 am

Q - which part of your last post corresponds to the questions in my last post?
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Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby Muhammad bin Lyin » Tue Feb 16, 2010 1:58 pm

Wootah wrote:Q - which part of your last post corresponds to the questions in my last post?


He's doesn't answer questions, he copies and pastes.
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Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby Wootah » Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:14 am

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
Wootah wrote:Q - which part of your last post corresponds to the questions in my last post?


He's doesn't answer questions, he copies and pastes.


But you do! I read the article Q posted and thought I saw an insight into Islam. Perhaps you can tell me if you think this insight is valid or not. In my last post I said:

Your article said “When Allah’s servants commit a sin, He tests them with hardship until they repent and cease committing sins and heed Allah’s admonishment.” Do you believe that anyone suffering hardship has committed a sin and is being punished for it? Suppose you came home and heard your neighbors house had burnt down would you know that (s)he must of sinned recently? If someone is born disabled are they being punished for a sin?


Do Muslims regard another person's hardship as evidence of that person committing a sin?
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Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby Muhammad bin Lyin » Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:59 pm

Wootah wrote:Do you believe that anyone suffering hardship has committed a sin and is being punished for it? Suppose you came home and heard your neighbors house had burnt down would you know that (s)he must of sinned recently? If someone is born disabled are they being punished for a sin?


How about people born joined at the head?

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Re: Why does Allah test us?

Postby Wootah » Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:09 pm

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
Wootah wrote:Do you believe that anyone suffering hardship has committed a sin and is being punished for it? Suppose you came home and heard your neighbors house had burnt down would you know that (s)he must of sinned recently? If someone is born disabled are they being punished for a sin?


How about people born joined at the head?

Image

Well two heads are better than one right ...?

But is that view part of Islamic theology? I would love to know the answer.
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