Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

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manfred
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Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

Post by manfred »

Mughal the best description (in my view) of "hell" is the one provided by the orthodox churches.

I call it the Cannabis hypothisis.

Many people have tried cannabis. Some really like it, and others find it revolting at get sick even at the the smell of it.

Heaven and hell is like that. Some people rejoice in the presence of God and they are in "heaven". Others, also having the same experience, the presence of God, are totally turned off and therefore are in "hell".

Heaven and ell are mindsets. Another way to describe the same idea is to look at how people behave to each other. Some create a hell for themselves and others, while some also make the world a better place.

A man who thinks he is "entitled" to receive everything he wants from the world will in the end become lonely and bitter. A man who wants to give all he can to the world will make many friends and will lead a happy and fulfilled life.

My own father spent his last years a very bitter old man. He refused to make any friends with the people in the care home he was in because he said everybody was "either mad or stupid". At the same time complained he was lonely, with some 50 people all round him every day. Others in that home pitied him, but they would not allow him to disrupt their social activities and fun. At first many tried to make him join, staff and residents, but in the end they gave up.

His last few years were a living hell, for him. But he was the one who decided to live in it.
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Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

Post by Mughal »

manfred wrote:Mughal the best description (in my view) of "hell" is the one provided by the orthodox churches.

I call it the Cannabis hypothisis.

Many people have tried cannabis. Some really like it, and others find it revolting at get sick even at the the smell of it.

Heaven and hell is like that. Some people rejoice in the presence of God and they are in "heaven". Others, also having the same experience, the presence of God, are totally turned off and therefore are in "hell".

Heaven and ell are mindsets. Another way to describe the same idea is to look at how people behave to each other. Some create a hell for themselves and others, while some also make the world a better place.

A man who thinks he is "entitled" to receive everything he wants from the world will in the end become lonely and bitter. A man who wants to give all he can to the world will make many friends and will lead a happy and fulfilled life.

My own father spent his last years a very bitter old man. He refused to make any friends with the people in the care home he was in because he said everybody was "either mad or stupid". At the same time complained he was lonely, with some 50 people all round him every day. Others in that home pitied him, but they would not allow him to disrupt their social activities and fun. At first many tried to make him join, staff and residents, but in the end they gave up.

His last few years were a living hell, for him. But he was the one who decided to live in it.
Dear manfred, in my view heaven and hell are real because we human beings are real. We are mind and body or mental and physical or psychological as well as biological creatures.

You see if we torture body of a person he gets upset in his mind and if we give a person mental torture we can also see effects of that on his body. In other words our inside environment or atmosphere is effected by our outside environment or atmosphere and our outside environment or atmosphere is effected by our inside environment or atmosphere. This is why we must learn to get on with each other by ensuring well being of each other and that way make our lives a paradise otherwise we can only and make lives of each other hell by fighting against each other for our personal gains at each other's expense.

So what we make of this world is up to ourselves and to help people realise this we need to create an education based environment where in people with vested interests against humanity cannot affect us in a negative way. This is why we should always oppose all steps by any people who wish to turn back the clock to push humanity back into dark ages of ignorance.

regards and all the best.

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manfred
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Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

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Dear manfred, in my view heaven and hell are real because we human beings are real.
Please look at this statement, Mughal. Look at the word "because". Does it fit?

Suppose someone said hippos exist BECAUSE horses exist.

Does the existence of horses have any bearing on the existence of hippos? If there were no horses it would be impossible for there to be hippos?

I have no problem with your statement at all until you said "because...". Then the whole thing looks wrong.
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Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

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Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

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manfred wrote:
Dear manfred, in my view heaven and hell are real because we human beings are real.
Please look at this statement, Mughal. Look at the word "because". Does it fit?

Suppose someone said hippos exist BECAUSE horses exist.

Does the existence of horses have any bearing on the existence of hippos? If there were no horses it would be impossible for there to be hippos?

I have no problem with your statement at all until you said "because...". Then the whole thing looks wrong.
Dear manfred, you need to realise that in real world all things are related to each other in some respect and totally independent in another sense. The point here is that if the quran is right in telling us things about this life then it can also be right in telling us things about hereafter as well so long as we have nothing to contradict it with.

We divide time in past, present and future for our purposes so if someone tells us truth about our present then we can trust that person regarding telling us about our past or future as well if we have nothing to contradict him with.

Also as I have been explaining the quran is a unique and stand alone book. May be if you have time you can listen to my explanation of the Quranic text HERE


regards and all the best.

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Centaur
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Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

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.I have observed many Muslims start with the highest philosophy possible and finally pint to Quran and Mohamed :D

Hats like talking quantum physics and then point to Tom and jerry. :lol:
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Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

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Centaur wrote:.I have observed many Muslims start with the highest philosophy possible and finally pint to Quran and Mohamed :D

Hats like talking quantum physics and then point to Tom and jerry. :lol:
Dear centaur, why are you excluding yourself from your statement? Are you the God who knows each and everything? We are all human beings and we each think and accept what we think is true or right according to our own understanding regardless we are actually right or wrong. The yardstick for testing the actual truth and falsehood or right and wrong is the criterion that works. If you have a criterion that works and you can prove it works then you are right and so is right everyone else who is based upon that criterion otherwise whoever has the proper criterion for testing the truth and falsehood about something and is based upon that is definitely right. This is what almost each and every person is ignoring and they are trying to build their imaginary lofty castles in the air.

We all need to realise the main point that we have no working or testable criterion for testing the truth of God's word, if you have any please share. This is what I realised and started working on it and am sharing with everyone. So the best we each can do is learn the criterion and then try and use it on the quran. If that criterion proves the quran a stand alone book beyond any reasonable doubt then we have no choice but to accept it as such. This is the proper way to go about things. One is not right just because one claims to believes in a book rather one has to prove the book is true in its claims about being a revelation from God.

This is why each and every person must give up one's dangerous make beliefs and harmful and destructive practices and look for the actual truth based upon solid criterion as proof of that truth. This is why in my view all claims of each and every person are false about each and everything till one has found the actual truth and stands upon it. This is why anyone who stops searching for the truth without reaching it is either an ignorant person or not a sincere human being.

Since this is our common goal so we all need to stick together and help each other to get where we all need to be by helping each other educate ourselves out of ignorance about things. So if you think muslims are wrong then prove them wrong by finding out the right criterion for testing their claims. Just saying they are this and that or the other is not the right way to go. In this regard our first challenge is to learn how to understand the quranic text properly according to a universally accepted standard. If then the quran proves to be right then accept it otherwise reject it. Using any people as standard to judge the truth of the actual God revealed scripture is nothing less than utter foolishness and stupidity.

For example, many nonmuslims claim the quran is full of conflicting statements therefore it is not word of God. But the truth is conflicting statements in themselves are not proof of falsehood of the God revealed book because they have their justifications ie there are reasons for God revealing conflicting statements because he has also revealed reason for them. The quran tells muslims to kill the infidels as well as not to kill them. The reasons are given in the quran itself as to why kill them and why not to kill them. When one brings all related statements together the apparent conflict between verses disappears. The deliberate false propaganda against the quran in this regard then becomes clearly exposed along with insincerity of such nonmuslims. This explains a rule for proper understanding of the quranic text for people regardless whatever they claim to be. The only contradiction that can prove fatal is that which cannot be justified at all no mater how hard one tries.

I have explained various rules for proper understanding of the quranic text so people should learn them and see how they prove the quran a stand alone book. This is why nothing can be used against the quran as a source to discredit or invalidate the quran unless the source itself is free of conflicts within itself and with respect to self evident facts. This is why each and every person first must learn the proper criterion for proper understanding of the quran and then look for mistakes in the quran otherwise one is only exposing one's own foolishness and ignorance or stupidity.

Since the quran is a stand alone book, it proves messenger-ship of muhammad from God as well, not the other way round. None can prove the quran is true revelation from God by talking about muhammad alone. Why not? Because human beings are not trust-able or reliable or dependable 100%. Only word of God can be trusted or relied upon or depended upon 100% after it proves to be truly from God according to a universally accepted criterion.

Baseless arguments between muslims and nonmuslims for sake of argument are meaningless or useless and serve no purpose. This is why sincere people must challenge muslims and nonmuslims alike when they talk nonsense about the quran without ever trying to understand it properly. Billions of people in the world both muslims and nonmmuslims are absolutely illiterate, how can anyone be foolish enough to accept whatever they say about the quran regardless it is true or false? Let such people first educate themselves about real world realities and the revelation of God to a level needed or necessary and then they can talk about the quran in a sensible way.

Almost all debates by so called educated people about the quran and deen of islam prove nothing but absolute foolishness of debaters because they try to prove each other wrong leaving the quran and its criterion for its proper understanding aside. However as I see it, this situation will remain for a while because we cannot educate each and every person overnight.

Roots of words used in the quran have hundreds and even thousands of different meanings not just one or two for various reasons. People who use simple dictionaries to try to get correct meanings of words are never going to succeed in discovering the truth about the quran. People need to understand God's use of words from his perspective or point of view. It is because God talks in the quran as all knowing being and he is talking to people whom he has created as babies knowing absolutely nothing at all to begin with. God's word do not change because they are facts and their explanations right from the start but human beings take time to reach the truth God has revealed. It is a very long and a very hard struggle for humanity through which God has put humanity as a whole. Why? Because that is the way it suited his purpose of creating each and everything. We cannot question God's purpose and plan for creation provided he has explained it properly. However whether God has done that or not we cannot know for sure till we educate ourselves to the level required for proper understanding of the quranic text. So only those people can criticise the quran rightly who can prove they have the needed knowledge that goes with that. So a person who talks nonsense about the quran must first ask oneself, has he the needed knowledge to be critical of the quranic text? If not then first learn the needed knowledge and that way save oneself from self destruction.

regards and all the best.

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Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

Your quote -
Roots of words used in the quran have hundreds and even thousands of different meanings not just one or two for various reasons.

Do you really think that an "all knowing" and "all wise" god would choose such a primitive language with many, many potential different meanings for his final guidance for mankind? It is quite absurd to think that he would.

It is more than clear that the Koran is not from a god but written by a man.

sum

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Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

Your quote -
Roots of words used in the quran have hundreds and even thousands of different meanings not just one or two for various reasons.

Do you really think that an "all knowing" and "all wise" god would choose such a primitive language with many, many potential different meanings for his final guidance for mankind? It is quite absurd to think that he would.

It is more than clear that the Koran is not from a god but written by a man.

sum
Dear sum, as I have already explained very clearly, the quran is a stand alone book. It had to be so otherwise how could anyone ever come to know it is truly from God or not? Once we have proven the quran is the solid standard or criterion then all the rest of the sources of information can be trusted based on the basis of the quran. This is how vitally important is proper understanding of the quranic text. This is how in one sense the quran is under intelligence of humanity but once human beings are satisfied with it then it becomes the standard for their intelligence to judge all the rest by. This is why muhammad is not the basis for deen of islam but the quran. This is why hadith or history or whatever is there is not the basis rather they need a solid base to be based upon to be valid sources of information for humanity. All help to understand the quran but once quran is understood as it ought to be understood then all are easy to sort out. It is like we have so many pieces of so many different jigsaw puzzles in a bag but only one is a complete jig saw puzzle in the bag so we cannot find out which pieces are of the complete jigsaw till we first built the one that is a complete jigsaw puzzle.

You are going about things the wrong way by questioning right of God as to what he should do or should not do or how he should do something or how he should not. As human beings all we can do is, see if what God explains for us makes sense to us or not or how it makes sense.

So your question will be better if it is about how can we human beings come to know the quran is from God or not? This is why I have been explaining the right way for understanding the quran. This is why it is up to mankind to try to understand the quran the right way or not to bother and face the consequences, which we all are and will continue till we get things right and one day we will.

How did I come to know the right way for understanding the quran properly? It is simple, let us suppose, we human beings needed to know how to measure area of a rectangle piece of land but we never knew before how to do it. We will start thinking and come up with various ideas about it and then try them to see if any of them works. That idea which works we will keep it and use it and discard all the rest.

Same is the case with understanding the word of God. To us words in a book are nothing more than a jumble of things that need to be put in order so that they make sense to us and serve some purpose for us for which the book containing the words is written and sent.

Just as any book means nothing to any human baby till the baby grows to be able to make sense of what is written in a book so word of God is also a jumble of words waiting to be discovered for its meanings by each and every human being who has gained sufficient life experience that he can decode the book for understanding its message. Once someone is able to do that from then on things will become easy but till someone gets to that stage all remains a mystery.

We human beings have been created by God to find out each and everything about his creation and revelation all by ourselves. This is why whatever we humans are thinking and doing is helping us get nearer and nearer to that end and one day we will have all our answers to all our questions. This process is a very, very long one, so we will have to be very steadfast and patient.

As for your question about words having so many meanings, it is straightforward as I have explained already. All we need to do is find the context of the revelation of God. God created this world to serve his purposes and not ours. He revealed his book to explain to mankind his purpose of creation of all things and also to explain the way whereby mankind could play their parts in this world for fulfilling purposes of God for which he created everything including human beings.

This is why the quran tells us purpose of our creation by God and deen of islam whereby we can fulfil his purpose according to his plan as he has programmed everything including human beings. I do not see anything confusing in all this.

My problem is, I am just a human being like other human beings so I can only do what I can as an individuals. I know I cannot be master in each and everything in the universe and I know we human beings cannot be or have or use or do each and everything as individuals but together we can move mountains and so we can also understand creation and revelation of God if we cooperate fully and help each other do so.

This is why human beings have been contributing a lot towards this process eg someone invented pen, someone paper, someone ink, someone language, someone this and someone that and so on and so forth. This is how gradually but surely we have been moving in the right direction be it knowingly or unknowingly. So by now we have covered a very long distance on this path. May be not in too distant future we will have something to celebrate in this regard.

Since we have come to know the right way for proper understanding of the quran properly, soon someone will be able to render the proper interpretation of the quranic text as well and then someone will publicise it as well for others to become aware of it.

I have been very successful in helping people realise some things they missed. One of the main things was to help people realise the fact that the quran is book of deen of islam not a religious holy book for poojaa of God ie a book of make beliefs and useless ritualistic practices. Anyone who has some sense cannot fail to realise the fact that deen of islam is a way of life and way of life cannot be anything other than about life and living. That means you cannot live your life without necessities of life or living or livelihood or sustenance or provisions. So guidance of God cannot be anything other than guidance for how people should meet their daily needs the best possible way. This is why the need for mankind to organise and regulate themselves properly instead of living like animals or even worse.

Since deen of islam deals with real world realities therefore by its very nature it has to be an ideology that deals with human society, its politics, its culture, its economics and all the rest that goes with it. This is why it has been opposed by some harmful and destructive human beings and that will continue for some time yet till those people have learned their lessons who think big about themselves as if they are Gods of this world in opposition to one true God. If not the easy way through learning knowledge by thinking and doing what is right then the hard way by hands of each other. One day human beings will get fed up with each other due to doing what they do to each other to stay on the top of each other.

God created people some with more advantages than others so that those who have more from God may help those who have less and that way complement each other but instead many harmful and destructive people have been using their advantaged positions to take undue advantages of those less advantaged than themselves. In short deen of islam wants people to be a brotherhood of humanity under one true God but people have decided to to be enemies of each other. This is how they have been delivered the results of their own thoughts and actions for or against each other. This law of God will never change so people will have to come to their senses sooner or later. But it will be better for them if sooner.

For me the only challenges remain are a)to complete my interpretation of the quran if God gives me life that is healthy enough that I can complete this undertaking and b) to help people know what have come to know. I have no way of knowing if I will be able to fulfil my these two undertakings. Even if I am not given the chance someone else will be. It is because it is a declaration by God in the quran that he will accomplish his purpose according to his plan.

So people can continue as they wish and continue facing the results of their beliefs and practices. Anyone who thinks the quran is not word of God must come up with the way of proper understanding of the quranic text to understand it properly before discrediting it because way to understand it properly exists. This is why one has no chance of succeeding against the quran by just saying anything one likes.

regards and all the best.

sum
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Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

Post by sum »

Hello Mughal

Your long post does not change anything. If there are many meanings to roots etc then countless people could do, as you do, link up various meanings which might be at great variance to someone else`s meaning and so result in totally different guidance. Why a god should pick a language that could be interpreted in so many ways as the final guidance for mankind is beyond reason. Can you not see that? Nobody could ever claim that their interpretation is the correct one.

If you need a reason to show that Islam is a totally false religion then all you have to do is read the Koran. It could only have been written by a man.

sum

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Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

Post by Mughal »

sum wrote:Hello Mughal

Your long post does not change anything. If there are many meanings to roots etc then countless people could do, as you do, link up various meanings which might be at great variance to someone else`s meaning and so result in totally different guidance. Why a god should pick a language that could be interpreted in so many ways as the final guidance for mankind is beyond reason. Can you not see that? Nobody could ever claim that their interpretation is the correct one.

If you need a reason to show that Islam is a totally false religion then all you have to do is read the Koran. It could only have been written by a man.

sum

Dear sum, as I have been explaining things the language of the quran is a similar problem, nothing out of the ordinary. I means we all need to learn a human language to communicate with each other and that is not easy or is it? We learn reading and writing and a whole lot of others things and none of them are easy. So if anyone puts effort into learning things about the quran s/he too will be able to do so likewise. I never said learning the quran was easy or a piece of cake. Of course once we have it fully worked out properly and start teaching it properly from then it will become a bit easier but till we do that it is not going to be an easy nut to crack.

Why it took us so many generations to discover things about things including about our own very selves? It is because in this world nothing is easy for humanity to know or do. This is why God will reward humanity in a big way for trying to do so.

I have argued that each and every word of the quran has many meanings. I also explained how to go about looking for correct meanings of words. For example, no doubt words have very many meanings but think about what could be the purpose of God for revealing the quran? To inform humanity, inform humanity about what? About why God created it. So look into the quranic text on that basis. Also God should have explained in the quran what humanity has to do to fulfil his purpose according to his plan? This means we should look into the quran in a way that helps us discover God's program and plan for us which will then help us do what we need to do.

You see the quran clearly tells us, God will only help us if we will help God. So we humans need to ask ourselves, are we helping God? Moreover why does God need our help? Is God someone who is a powerless weak being? No. It is because program of God is such that involves our participation. You see God created us people for fulfilling his program, he did not create us to live anyway we like. This is why all religions are wrong because they do not give people sense to understand these like points.

All religions are merely ritualistic worship based, why? It is because originally when people came about from tree of life they knew absolutely nothing about this world. So they behaved as they thought was right in their own minds. They worshipped forces of nature so they thought forces of nature were Gods. This is what they did when they came up with idea of a creator of all things ie one true God. Only when God started sending them messages through people from among themselves who could think better some gradually began realising their mistakes about their concepts about God.

No doubt humanity must appreciate God but not the way they do ie by way of useless ritualism that has nothing at all to do with what people need for living properly in this world so that they could end up fulfilling program of God. So instead of performing ritualism to please God they must learn to live by rule of law of God. It is because God's rule of law is part of his program for humanity so that it could organise and regulate them in a direction which helps them fulfil plan and purpose of God as well as gives humnaity a great life. This is why islam is a way of life which is supposed to help humanity move in that direction which God has set for it.

Islam that is told about in the quran is not the islam of mullahs and their stupid followers or of the infidels who argue with them and waste time of each other that way instead of trying to discover the actual message of God for them by themselves like me.

This is why people have no idea how to try and understand the quran properly despite being highly educated. All because they are not thinking things the right way. Mullah says to people worship God ritualistically or you will go to hell. Most people without questioning take up ritualism and try to make God happy to save themselves from hell fire. Not only that they have very long lists of demands which they put before God for his consideration after pleasing God with their ritualistic mumbo jumbo. Not realising what God demands of them comes first. You do not do what God says then why should God do what you demand of him? Moreover how will you know your demands are in line with program and plan of God or not without reading his book and finding out first. There could be a clash between program and plan of God and your demands.

This is why God does not want people ask him for things that are in clash with his program and purpose of creation of humanity. People think God has created each and everything for humanity. No God has not created anything for anyone or anything at all rather he has created all things for serving his plan and purpose. This is why he has given things to people to use them to fulfil his purpose according to his plan with help of his given program. Do people even understand that much? I do not think so. Had people understood these points then may be human world will have been in much better state of existence than it is.

In this world we see each and every person a bigger crook than the next one and all due to people remaining ignorant about actual message of God for them. This will remain the situation till people change their mindsets, attitudes and behaviours to those conducive to plan and purpose of God. I know for sure that they will but when is the question.

Everything comes down to negativism or positivism in mindsets or attitudes or behaviours of mankind. All things either go apart or come together but what matters is, on what basis? Something good or something bad.

People have been labelling all things as well as each other but have they been able to properly define anything at all? No, why not? Because they have no solid foothold or basis or foundation to do so. All our understandings about everything are subject to changes in future because we do not know what is new round the corner that will not fit our definition of something.

So time for us to question our labelling of things. We call ourselves and each other by all sorts of names without going deeper into what it means for all of us.

We have communists, socialists, capitalists etc etc. But are they really? Or can they be truly so? Not in my understanding. Let us take communism for argument sake. The actual word means community based system of life and living and this is what the quran demands of humnaity. Were people who claimed to be communists lived up to true definition of this word? No. It is because they were fighting among themselves and were competing against each other instead of ensuring well being of each other. What is socialism? The Word itself is about human society. Did people who claimed to be socialists lived up to definition of this label and ensured well being of one another as a society? No, they also fought with each other and competed against one another instead of ensuring well being of all members of their human society?

Take people who claimed to be capitalists, did they live up to true definition of this word? No. It is because true capitalism is supposed to be about capitalising on what could ensure well being of humanity as a whole. Did they do that? Absolutely not. Then why did these people label themselves and each other that way when they were and are all crooks?

The very same is true about all people in our world who have no sense to make proper sense of message of God. They can label themselves and each other what they like (eg hindu, parsi, jew, christian, muslim, sikh etc etc etc) but they are all crooks due to remaining ignorant, foolish and stupid or due to keeping each other ignorant, foolish and stupid about vitally important things in life.

Let me explain this for you in a bit of detail. Why are almost all people fighting against each other throughout this world? It is because they are all stupid. They are always trying to dominate each other by undermining each other why? Because they are stupid. If they were sensible they could come to realise that by competing against each other they are wasting away their energies and lots of their resources. The result is, a lot of people are wasted who could have been working hard for the good of humanity. People will be much better off working together as a single community rather than working against one another. The question is, what humanity is loosing by working against one another? Everything.

It is causing problems for all of us, how? Imagine people of one country cause problem of poverty for a people in a far away country, how is that going to affect people of country that has caused the problem? It is going to affect it because those poor people will be forced to breath in contaminated air, they will be forced to drink unclean or dirty water and they will be forced to eat unhealthy foods. All this will create many diseases in those people and those diseases could become airborne and infectious in many ways. Don't forget, we all breath from the same atmosphere, we all drink from same water and we eat from the very same planet, somehow all that will come back to the country that caused the problem. So does it make sense for us to do such things to each other? Not at all. Are we teaching all this in our educational institutions? No. not the way all this should be taught. Where do your values fit in all this, be they your religious or nonreligious values?

This is why we all must look for true values in the human world and find them and adopt them. Otherwise there is no point in labelling each other or it is a case of kettle calling the pot black.

We are teaching our kids in our schools that they can believe what they like and they can do what they like or it is their life and they can live any way they like. Is this right teaching for kids? Not in my view, why not? It is because it does not give kids complete and true picture of life in this world and what the life has to be about. The truth is we cannot live in this world that way at all where we have no rules and regulations at all. Why we have armies or police or prisons if each person is free to live as one likes? This is why kids must not be taught wrong things or they will grow up thinking this way and become problem kids and problem grown up human beings.

Regards and all the best.

frankie
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Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

Post by frankie »

Mughal:
to please God they must learn to live by rule of law of God.
depends what these laws are, and which God is giving them.

For example.

The Bible God’s laws rest on love of God and all people, regardless of faith, no one has to be called derogatory names, and brought into submission by being fought against just because they do not believe in the God of the Bible, and any of the prophets.

Love is a universal concept which is both good guidance and beneficial to all humanity, it does not demand restrictions placed upon it,all are considered free and equal within this law,free to accept or reject to live by them.


Conversely,

This universal concept of love is non existent in Allah's rules.

Islam says that Allah’s laws must rule the earth.

So, what are these rules, and how do they become dominant over all humanity.

Allah tells Muslims “they are the best of peoples”QS 3.110 because they believe in Allah and accept Mohammed as prophet. The best Muslims follow Allah’s rules and obey Mohammed in all things Islamic,all non-Muslims are “the worst of creaturesQS 98.6 who are condemned to Hell because they do not accept Allah as the only god, and Mohammed as prophet, they should not be taken as friends,QS 5.51,and should be fought to be brought into submission to Allah’s rules,QS 9.29 which is what Mohammed claimed had been ordered to do, in obedience to Allah, and so did.

Because Mohammed declared war on all non-Muslims anyone following his example consequently becomes a person of violence.

Sahih Muslim 33—The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.

War brings death, destruction, chaos and misery to all concerned, it cannot possibly be considered beneficial or good guidance to anyone, least of all, all of humanity.

So Mughal,

why should anyone believe in this god Allah whose orders put Muslims at war with their fellow man?

And why do you want all people to accept as you do, this tyrant of a god, and his warmongering prophet which you claim give “true values” to humanity?

Considering the rules of Allah and Muhammad’s example, would you still truly admit:
“ this is why islam is a way of life which is supposed to help humanity move in that direction which God has set for it.”
If by any chance you do, you prove to utterly mis understand the very god and prophet you chose to believe in and promote, and deny the very orders your god instructs you to obey.

Mughal
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

Post by Mughal »

frankie wrote:Mughal:
to please God they must learn to live by rule of law of God.
frankie wrote::depends what these laws are, and which God is giving them.
Dear frankie, God who created everything is only one God. God is not and cannot be pleased with people who do not live by his rule of law. It is because he has set up universal systems and laws to operate this universe in a particular way to make things work properly so that his purpose becomes fulfilled according to his plan. This is why If you put your finger in the fire even if by accident it burns.

God does not want people to suffer needlessly this is why he has given them guidance which tells mankind why God has created them and what people need to do and how they need to do it so that the purpose of God for creating them becomes fulfilled as well as gives them a great life in this world. This is why the quran explains how this universe is set up and works so that people study it properly and fit in properly with in it and that way save themselves from needless painful suffering and instead have a great life. Eventually they will once they have found out things the hard way if not by way of proper education.
frankie wrote: For example.

The Bible God’s laws rest on love of God and all people, regardless of faith, no one has to be called derogatory names, and brought into submission by being fought against just because they do not believe in the God of the Bible, and any of the prophets.

Love is a universal concept which is both good guidance and beneficial to all humanity, it does not demand restrictions placed upon it,all are considered free and equal within this law,free to accept or reject to live by them.


Conversely,

This universal concept of love is non existent in Allah's rules.


The quran repeatedly tells mankind, God loves those who live by his rule of law, why? Because God does not want people to live by wrong rules of laws and suffer painful consequences. There is no such thing as unconditional love. It is not possible in reality. If God's love is unconditional then why christians are suffering painfully in this world just like other people?
frankie wrote: Islam says that Allah’s laws must rule the earth.
Yes, the quran does and it also tells the reason why?
frankie wrote: So, what are these rules, and how do they become dominant over all humanity.
I have explained them in detail in other posts, please see there.
frankie wrote: Allah tells Muslims “they are the best of peoples”QS 3.110 because they believe in Allah and accept Mohammed as prophet. The best Muslims follow Allah’s rules and obey Mohammed in all things Islamic,all non-Muslims are “the worst of creaturesQS 98.6 who are condemned to Hell because they do not accept Allah as the only god, and Mohammed as prophet, they should not be taken as friends,QS 5.51,and should be fought to be brought into submission to Allah’s rules,QS 9.29 which is what Mohammed claimed had been ordered to do, in obedience to Allah, and so did.
The quran tells people must abide by rule of law of God, it also tells people why. God also defines what or who muslims are or can be. Not people who claim to be muslims yet live by rules of law that are anti quran. I do not defend such people. The quran calls them hypocrites. Moreover if a people abide by rule of law of God, why should they not be the best among humanity? Remember, claim of a people that they are muslims and living of people by rule of law of God are two different things. Here the quran is only labelling those people who claim to be muslims as muslims who also live by rule of law of God faithfully. Hypocrites do not count among such people who say one thing and do another.

The quran also labels such people as do not use their God given brains and things appropriately as worse off than animals. Are they not? What is wrong with calling a spade, spade? Why should God label good people bad or bad people good? Moreover if people who inflict painful suffering on others for their petty personal gains, why should they not be made to face consequences of their own harmful and destructive thoughts and actions against others?

Why do you think there are always ongoing wars between people? People were already fighting each other long before God started sending his messages for mankind. This is why you cannot blame God for wars between people which are based upon peoples' own wrong choices, thoughts and actions against each other. God if anything has tried to teach them sense so that they stop doing all this to each other. God has set up correction measures in this world and that is what forces people to change for the better as time goes on. This is how eventually all people will become aware of advantages of living by rule of law of God and that is how finally deen of islam will become a worldwide reality.

Start reading the quran the way I have been explaining things about it. This world is set up to work on basis of cause and effect rule. Whatever you think or do is bound to have an outcome or result or consequences and they can be good or bad for humanity as a whole. I should explain here meanings of some words also but unfortunately I do not have that much time. In all available translations of the quran many words are mistranslated to fit a particular agenda rather than explaining message of the quran as it is.
frankie wrote: Because Mohammed declared war on all non-Muslims anyone following his example consequently becomes a person of violence.


Think about when was world ever peaceful? It was full of violence that is why God raised adam to guide humanity as a first messenger from God to mankind. Adam was opposed tooth and nail by a leader of that time ie mr iblees. Again read my explanation about story of adam as told in the quran in other threads. God did not send messengers to cause problems or violence etc but to calm things down. It is because anti God folks attacked these Godly people so they had to do something to stay alive and deliver the messages of God to people. Different people need different approaches to help them understand things yet some never do and they need to be stopped. Think about it if some people did not stop other people from doing harms and destructions then what kind of world could have resulted from that? So limitations and restriction are a must but the basis on which they are founded must also be solid and best for the human kind as a whole.

Violence for sake of violence means nothing at all. Therefore those who use violence have their reasons to justify it. If their reasons are valid then violence is beneficial in the sense that more harm or destruction may be stopped thereby otherwise violence is harmful and destructive for humanity.
frankie wrote: Sahih Muslim 33—The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah, and they establish prayer, and pay Zakat and if they do it, their blood and property are guaranteed protection on my behalf except when justified by law, and their affairs rest with Allah.
In this quote many words are wrongly translated but I cannot give their meaning just now. If anyone has read my posts some of these words have been explained in them to a degree.The real message is simple, people should be one under rule of law of one true God. See my explanation about five pillars of deen of islam. Deen of islam is not at all about ritualism or charity for the poor etc etc. It is the best possible governing system for humanity beyond any possible challenge at all.
frankie wrote: War brings death, destruction, chaos and misery to all concerned, it cannot possibly be considered beneficial or good guidance to anyone, least of all, all of humanity.
I have explained war and peace issue in detail for you so no need to explain it here again. You cannot have a world without war till all people have their God given rights delivered to them freely by humanity as a whole. So long as some people will try to do away with God given rights of others, wars will continue. The starters of wars are those who dispossess others of their livelihoods by using various tricks and mechanisms. I have explained all these things in detail for you and others in my various posts on this forum.
frankie wrote:So Mughal,

why should anyone believe in this god Allah whose orders put Muslims at war with their fellow man?

And why do you want all people to accept as you do, this tyrant of a god, and his warmongering prophet which you claim give “true values” to humanity?

Considering the rules of Allah and Muhammad’s example, would you still truly admit:
“ this is why islam is a way of life which is supposed to help humanity move in that direction which God has set for it.”
If by any chance you do, you prove to utterly mis understand the very god and prophet you chose to believe in and promote, and deny the very orders your god instructs you to obey.
Stop putting the cart before the horse. Hopefully you will understand what I am explaining sooner rather than latter before it is too late.

regards and all the best.

frankie
Posts: 2612
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

Post by frankie »

Mughal

Your comments would only have some credence IF we are talking about the same God,but we are not,the god of Islam gives polar opposite laws for humanity to live by, compared to the God of the Bible.

The God of the Bible commands love of God and ALL people regardless of faith,LOVE is the foundation of this God's law,which Jesus, (an alleged prophet of Islam) preaches throughout His ministry.

You as a Muslim may accept Jesus as a prophet,but you fail miserably when it comes to accept His teachings and act upon them,because the man you are bound to use as your role model teaches the very opposite.
You only accept Jesus as a prophet because that is what the Quran tells you,you have absolutely no regard to any of His or any of the Bible prophets teachings,and so do not practice them.

Matthew 22:37
36“Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?” 37Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38This is
the first and greatest commandment.… 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”…


The "enemy" of the God of the Bible is SIN not people,sin is to disobey any the Ten Commandments of YHWH given to Moses,it is SIN which separates man from God.

All Bible prophets preached from this premise,repent from sin and obey the Commandments of God through the law of LOVE,not by using physical weapons,but with spiritual weapons.

Mohammed got this concept wrong not only because he was a false prophet according to the Bibles criteria,but because he was just a man of his time,who substituted this "struggle"against sin,to be the "struggle" against people,to implement his false gods rules over the world through warfare,which is what Mohammed did,thereby codifying a man made construct aka war into the faith you and all Muslims follow today.

All non Muslims are now considered your enemy because that is what Allah tells you,they must be fought to to be brought into submission,the reason for this is, they do not accept Allah as the only god with Mohammed as prophet,which is not a good enough reason to go to war against anyone,yet this is exactly what Islam does,it puts you at war with your fellow man,just because he does not believe as you do.


9.30-31 Kathir - Ibn Al Kathir
Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because They are Idolators and Disbelievers
Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that `Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over `Isa, it is obvious. This is why Allah declared both groups to be liars,....

5.51-53 Kathir - Ibn Al Kathir
The Prohibition of Taking the Jews, Christians and Enemies of Islam as Friends
Allah forbids His believing servants from having Jews and Christians as friends, because they are the enemies of Islam and its people, may Allah curse them. Allah then states that they are friends of each other and He gives a warning threat to those who do this,
وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُمْ مِّنكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ
(And if any among you befriends them, then surely he is one of them.)....

Quran 8.39
And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.
Ibn Kathir 8.39
The Order to fight to eradicate Shirk and Kufr
Allah said,
(And fight them until there is no more Fitnah, and the religion will all be for Allah alone.)
Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing.

Quran 9.29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Quran 9.111
Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah, so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.

If you have just even half a brain you must be able to understand how Islam is not only a fraudulent faith,but how damaging it is to how a Muslim must perceive his fellow human,to be told that all non Muslims are his enemy is a direct threat to global peace and security,and yet you pontificate,
It is the best possible governing system for humanity beyond any possible challenge at all.
Your own sources, together with the ways and example of your false prophet prove beyond all doubt you are following a highly dangerous ideology of war,which has no place in today's civilized world,it deserves to be confined to the dustbin of history.

ps
There is no such thing as unconditional love.
You are obviously not a parent,as any parent knows the love they have for their child is unconditional,how much more then,can a being who created this mindset with a human being, have for the very creation of his own making?

Mughal
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

Post by Mughal »

frankie wrote:Mughal

Your comments would only have some credence IF we are talking about the same God,but we are not,the god of Islam gives polar opposite laws for humanity to live by, compared to the God of the Bible.

The God of the Bible commands love of God and ALL people regardless of faith,LOVE is the foundation of this God's law,which Jesus, (an alleged prophet of Islam) preaches throughout His ministry.

You as a Muslim may accept Jesus as a prophet,but you fail miserably when it comes to accept His teachings and act upon them,because the man you are bound to use as your role model teaches the very opposite.
You only accept Jesus as a prophet because that is what the Quran tells you,you have absolutely no regard to any of His or any of the Bible prophets teachings,and so do not practice them.

Matthew 22:37
36“Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?” 37Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38This is
the first and greatest commandment.… 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”…


The "enemy" of the God of the Bible is SIN not people,sin is to disobey any the Ten Commandments of YHWH given to Moses,it is SIN which separates man from God.

All Bible prophets preached from this premise,repent from sin and obey the Commandments of God through the law of LOVE,not by using physical weapons,but with spiritual weapons.

Mohammed got this concept wrong not only because he was a false prophet according to the Bibles criteria,but because he was just a man of his time,who substituted this "struggle"against sin,to be the "struggle" against people,to implement his false gods rules over the world through warfare,which is what Mohammed did,thereby codifying a man made construct aka war into the faith you and all Muslims follow today.

All non Muslims are now considered your enemy because that is what Allah tells you,they must be fought to to be brought into submission,the reason for this is, they do not accept Allah as the only god with Mohammed as prophet,which is not a good enough reason to go to war against anyone,yet this is exactly what Islam does,it puts you at war with your fellow man,just because he does not believe as you do.


9.30-31 Kathir - Ibn Al Kathir
Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because They are Idolators and Disbelievers
Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that `Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over `Isa, it is obvious. This is why Allah declared both groups to be liars,....

5.51-53 Kathir - Ibn Al Kathir
The Prohibition of Taking the Jews, Christians and Enemies of Islam as Friends
Allah forbids His believing servants from having Jews and Christians as friends, because they are the enemies of Islam and its people, may Allah curse them. Allah then states that they are friends of each other and He gives a warning threat to those who do this,
وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُمْ مِّنكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ
(And if any among you befriends them, then surely he is one of them.)....

Quran 8.39
And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.
Ibn Kathir 8.39
The Order to fight to eradicate Shirk and Kufr
Allah said,
(And fight them until there is no more Fitnah, and the religion will all be for Allah alone.)
Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing.

Quran 9.29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Quran 9.111
Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah, so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.

If you have just even half a brain you must be able to understand how Islam is not only a fraudulent faith,but how damaging it is to how a Muslim must perceive his fellow human,to be told that all non Muslims are his enemy is a direct threat to global peace and security,and yet you pontificate,
It is the best possible governing system for humanity beyond any possible challenge at all.
Your own sources, together with the ways and example of your false prophet prove beyond all doubt you are following a highly dangerous ideology of war,which has no place in today's civilized world,it deserves to be confined to the dustbin of history.

ps
There is no such thing as unconditional love.
You are obviously not a parent,as any parent knows the love they have for their child is unconditional,how much more then,can a being who created this mindset with a human being, have for the very creation of his own making?
Dear frankie, try and understand the fact that we are all creation of one true God. Not any other God because there is no other God. The one true God has only revealed the quran for this age regardless we like it or hate it.

What is the quran about? I have explained it here and there in various threads on this forum. I also explained for people how they can try and understand the quran.

So rest is up to people themselves to prepare themselves for proper understanding of the quran or not. However it is not without a huge reward or serious consequences in this very world as well as in hereafter.

May God save people for being from among the unfortunate people who refuse to learn sense to make proper sense of creation and revelation of God.

Pay attention to what is happening to name sake muslims all over the world. It could be rest of the world as well and may be sooner than people expect.

regards and all the best.

frankie
Posts: 2612
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

Post by frankie »

Mughal wrote:
frankie wrote:Mughal

Your comments would only have some credence IF we are talking about the same God,but we are not,the god of Islam gives polar opposite laws for humanity to live by, compared to the God of the Bible.

The God of the Bible commands love of God and ALL people regardless of faith,LOVE is the foundation of this God's law,which Jesus, (an alleged prophet of Islam) preaches throughout His ministry.

You as a Muslim may accept Jesus as a prophet,but you fail miserably when it comes to accept His teachings and act upon them,because the man you are bound to use as your role model teaches the very opposite.
You only accept Jesus as a prophet because that is what the Quran tells you,you have absolutely no regard to any of His or any of the Bible prophets teachings,and so do not practice them.

Matthew 22:37
36“Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?” 37Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38This is
the first and greatest commandment.… 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”…


The "enemy" of the God of the Bible is SIN not people,sin is to disobey any the Ten Commandments of YHWH given to Moses,it is SIN which separates man from God.

All Bible prophets preached from this premise,repent from sin and obey the Commandments of God through the law of LOVE,not by using physical weapons,but with spiritual weapons.

Mohammed got this concept wrong not only because he was a false prophet according to the Bibles criteria,but because he was just a man of his time,who substituted this "struggle"against sin,to be the "struggle" against people,to implement his false gods rules over the world through warfare,which is what Mohammed did,thereby codifying a man made construct aka war into the faith you and all Muslims follow today.

All non Muslims are now considered your enemy because that is what Allah tells you,they must be fought to to be brought into submission,the reason for this is, they do not accept Allah as the only god with Mohammed as prophet,which is not a good enough reason to go to war against anyone,yet this is exactly what Islam does,it puts you at war with your fellow man,just because he does not believe as you do.


9.30-31 Kathir - Ibn Al Kathir
Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because They are Idolators and Disbelievers
Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that `Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over `Isa, it is obvious. This is why Allah declared both groups to be liars,....

5.51-53 Kathir - Ibn Al Kathir
The Prohibition of Taking the Jews, Christians and Enemies of Islam as Friends
Allah forbids His believing servants from having Jews and Christians as friends, because they are the enemies of Islam and its people, may Allah curse them. Allah then states that they are friends of each other and He gives a warning threat to those who do this,
وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُمْ مِّنكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ
(And if any among you befriends them, then surely he is one of them.)....

Quran 8.39
And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.
Ibn Kathir 8.39
The Order to fight to eradicate Shirk and Kufr
Allah said,
(And fight them until there is no more Fitnah, and the religion will all be for Allah alone.)
Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing.

Quran 9.29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Quran 9.111
Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah, so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.

If you have just even half a brain you must be able to understand how Islam is not only a fraudulent faith,but how damaging it is to how a Muslim must perceive his fellow human,to be told that all non Muslims are his enemy is a direct threat to global peace and security,and yet you pontificate,
It is the best possible governing system for humanity beyond any possible challenge at all.
Your own sources, together with the ways and example of your false prophet prove beyond all doubt you are following a highly dangerous ideology of war,which has no place in today's civilized world,it deserves to be confined to the dustbin of history.

ps
There is no such thing as unconditional love.
You are obviously not a parent,as any parent knows the love they have for their child is unconditional,how much more then,can a being who created this mindset with a human being, have for the very creation of his own making?
Dear frankie, try and understand the fact that we are all creation of one true God. Not any other God because there is no other God. The one true God has only revealed the quran for this age regardless we like it or hate it.

What is the quran about? I have explained it here and there in various threads on this forum. I also explained for people how they can try and understand the quran.

So rest is up to people themselves to prepare themselves for proper understanding of the quran or not. However it is not without a huge reward or serious consequences in this very world as well as in hereafter.

May God save people for being from among the unfortunate people who refuse to learn sense to make proper sense of creation and revelation of God.

Pay attention to what is happening to name sake muslims all over the world. It could be rest of the world as well and may be sooner than people expect.

regards and all the best.

Mughal

The god of Islam gives diametrically opposing teachings to the God of the Bible,therefore they cannot be the same deity.

You believe in a god of war, which puts its adherents at war with those not believing as they do,which is not what the God of the Bible teaches.

Going to war with someone just because they believe differently to you, is a direct threat to global peace and security.

Your faith puts you at war with your fellow man,which should be a great concern to you,if not all Muslims.

It is not my concern whether you want to perceive this or not, it is more than evidently factual,from Islamic sources,no amount of your obfuscation and denial will, or can ever change it.

You need to decide whether you want to remain at war with all non Muslims,or not,its a simple choice.

Mughal
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

Post by Mughal »

Is the birmingham quran older than time of muhammad?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzceTMtfGec

The quranic manuscript attributed to the forth caliph of islam

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKKANQ8XOts

Coins suggest Islam began MUCH later - a Synopsis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcxhxbuGmbM

Mughal
Posts: 870
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 4:45 am
Location: i/g
Contact:

Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

Post by Mughal »

frankie wrote:
Fri Apr 03, 2020 12:46 pm
Mughal wrote:
frankie wrote:Mughal

Your comments would only have some credence IF we are talking about the same God,but we are not,the god of Islam gives polar opposite laws for humanity to live by, compared to the God of the Bible.

The God of the Bible commands love of God and ALL people regardless of faith,LOVE is the foundation of this God's law,which Jesus, (an alleged prophet of Islam) preaches throughout His ministry.

You as a Muslim may accept Jesus as a prophet,but you fail miserably when it comes to accept His teachings and act upon them,because the man you are bound to use as your role model teaches the very opposite.
You only accept Jesus as a prophet because that is what the Quran tells you,you have absolutely no regard to any of His or any of the Bible prophets teachings,and so do not practice them.

Matthew 22:37
36“Teacher, which commandment is the greatest in the Law?” 37Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38This is
the first and greatest commandment.… 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”…


The "enemy" of the God of the Bible is SIN not people,sin is to disobey any the Ten Commandments of YHWH given to Moses,it is SIN which separates man from God.

All Bible prophets preached from this premise,repent from sin and obey the Commandments of God through the law of LOVE,not by using physical weapons,but with spiritual weapons.

Mohammed got this concept wrong not only because he was a false prophet according to the Bibles criteria,but because he was just a man of his time,who substituted this "struggle"against sin,to be the "struggle" against people,to implement his false gods rules over the world through warfare,which is what Mohammed did,thereby codifying a man made construct aka war into the faith you and all Muslims follow today.

All non Muslims are now considered your enemy because that is what Allah tells you,they must be fought to to be brought into submission,the reason for this is, they do not accept Allah as the only god with Mohammed as prophet,which is not a good enough reason to go to war against anyone,yet this is exactly what Islam does,it puts you at war with your fellow man,just because he does not believe as you do.


9.30-31 Kathir - Ibn Al Kathir
Fighting the Jews and Christians is legislated because They are Idolators and Disbelievers
Allah the Exalted encourages the believers to fight the polytheists, disbelieving Jews and Christians, who uttered this terrible statement and utter lies against Allah, the Exalted. As for the Jews, they claimed that `Uzayr was the son of God, Allah is free of what they attribute to Him. As for the misguidance of Christians over `Isa, it is obvious. This is why Allah declared both groups to be liars,....

5.51-53 Kathir - Ibn Al Kathir
The Prohibition of Taking the Jews, Christians and Enemies of Islam as Friends
Allah forbids His believing servants from having Jews and Christians as friends, because they are the enemies of Islam and its people, may Allah curse them. Allah then states that they are friends of each other and He gives a warning threat to those who do this,
وَمَن يَتَوَلَّهُمْ مِّنكُمْ فَإِنَّهُ مِنْهُمْ
(And if any among you befriends them, then surely he is one of them.)....

Quran 8.39
And fight them until there is no fitnah and [until] the religion, all of it, is for Allah. And if they cease - then indeed, Allah is Seeing of what they do.
Ibn Kathir 8.39
The Order to fight to eradicate Shirk and Kufr
Allah said,
(And fight them until there is no more Fitnah, and the religion will all be for Allah alone.)
Since Jihad involves killing and shedding the blood of men, Allah indicated that these men are committing disbelief in Allah, associating with Him (in the worship) and hindering from His path, and this is a much greater evil and more disastrous than killing.

Quran 9.29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.

Quran 9.111
Indeed, Allah has purchased from the believers their lives and their properties [in exchange] for that they will have Paradise. They fight in the cause of Allah, so they kill and are killed. [It is] a true promise [binding] upon Him in the Torah and the Gospel and the Qur'an. And who is truer to his covenant than Allah? So rejoice in your transaction which you have contracted. And it is that which is the great attainment.

If you have just even half a brain you must be able to understand how Islam is not only a fraudulent faith,but how damaging it is to how a Muslim must perceive his fellow human,to be told that all non Muslims are his enemy is a direct threat to global peace and security,and yet you pontificate,

Your own sources, together with the ways and example of your false prophet prove beyond all doubt you are following a highly dangerous ideology of war,which has no place in today's civilized world,it deserves to be confined to the dustbin of history.

ps

You are obviously not a parent,as any parent knows the love they have for their child is unconditional,how much more then,can a being who created this mindset with a human being, have for the very creation of his own making?
Dear frankie, try and understand the fact that we are all creation of one true God. Not any other God because there is no other God. The one true God has only revealed the quran for this age regardless we like it or hate it.

What is the quran about? I have explained it here and there in various threads on this forum. I also explained for people how they can try and understand the quran.

So rest is up to people themselves to prepare themselves for proper understanding of the quran or not. However it is not without a huge reward or serious consequences in this very world as well as in hereafter.

May God save people for being from among the unfortunate people who refuse to learn sense to make proper sense of creation and revelation of God.

Pay attention to what is happening to name sake muslims all over the world. It could be rest of the world as well and may be sooner than people expect.

regards and all the best.

Mughal

The god of Islam gives diametrically opposing teachings to the God of the Bible,therefore they cannot be the same deity.

You believe in a god of war, which puts its adherents at war with those not believing as they do,which is not what the God of the Bible teaches.

Going to war with someone just because they believe differently to you, is a direct threat to global peace and security.

Your faith puts you at war with your fellow man,which should be a great concern to you,if not all Muslims.

It is not my concern whether you want to perceive this or not, it is more than evidently factual,from Islamic sources,no amount of your obfuscation and denial will, or can ever change it.

You need to decide whether you want to remain at war with all non Muslims,or not,its a simple choice.
Dear frankie, try all you like but you cannot prove the bible is word of God because it does not claim to be word of God. If the bible cannot be proven word of God and it does not claim to be word of God then how can you even talk about God?

regards and all the best.

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manfred
Posts: 11617
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 11:29 pm

Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

Post by manfred »

Dear frankie, try all you like but you cannot prove the bible is word of God because it does not claim to be word of God. If the bible cannot be proven word of God and it does not claim to be word of God then how can you even talk about God?
Dear Mughal try all you like but you cannot prove the quran is the word of God because claims can be false. The quran cannot be the word of God despite of the claim as it has many errors in it, so how can you even talk about God?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"

frankie
Posts: 2612
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2011 6:10 pm

Re: Is Allah the worst communicator ever?

Post by frankie »

Mughal

Dear frankie, try all you like but you cannot prove the bible is word of God because it does not claim to be word of God. If the bible cannot be proven word of God and it does not claim to be word of God then how can you even talk about God?

You have yet to prove the Quran originates from the Bible God,which it pretends to do,and Mohammed was a true prophet.

Any God worthy of the name should be consistent in the message it is conveying to humanity,which Allah does not do,his message is vastly different to humanity,from the message of YHWH.

Allah tells his slaves to make "holy war" upon non Muslims,to bring them into submission to his laws,those who refuse to do so should be executed.

This is how Mohammed obeyed his god,he fought people to bring them to accept Islam,proving he was not a true prophet of the Bible God YHWH,but a false prophet who was mis led to fight people with physical weapons,instead of "fighting" sin,with spiritual weapons. e.g QS 8.39,QS 9.29 QS 9.111,Sahih Muslim 33 Sahih Bukhari 52.4.196 Sahih Muslim Book 12 number 4294

No true prophet of YHWH ever taught their listeners to fight anyone,to bring them into submission to God's laws,they taught repentance from sin and to obey Gods laws based upon love for God and all people,regardless of faith,which Muslims cannot do as Allah has no love for "unbelievers" Muslims must have no love for unbelievers either QS 3.32

This is what Jesus,an alleged prophet of Islam told His listeners,disagreeing with His teachings automatically condemns you as an apostate from Islam,so make your decision,you cannot obey both your god Allah, and Jesus at the same time.

Matthew 22:37-40
…37Jesus declared, “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’…38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”…

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