Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

His life, his examples and his psychology
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kerenabiz
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Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by kerenabiz »

In some of articles Ali Sina brings the stories of the killing of Abu Afak and Asma' bint Marwan to attest that prophet Muhammad (PBUH) hates being criticized and would do anything to silence ones who criticizing him by eliminating them for good even they are only an old man and a woman. But apparently the stories of the killing of the two are not reliable. And I found an article which dedicates to roll out the issues and evaluate whether the stories are credible or not. Here is the article I quote from Answering Christianity: True Stories or Forgeries? The Killing of Abu 'Afak and Asma' bint Marwan?:

The Killing of Abu 'Afak: Where is The Isnâd?

According to Ibn Sa'd and Ibn Ishâq, Abu 'Afak was a 120 years old Jewish man who had abused the Prophet(P) verbally, so the latter launched a raid under the command of Salîm Ibn 'Umaîr to kill him. We do know that Ibn Ishâq lived in the 2nd half of the 2nd century after Hijra, as well as Al-Waqîdî from whom Ibn Sa'd (died 230 A.H.) copied the story of Abu 'Afak.

As explained above, the chain of reporters of the story from eye-witnesses of the event till Ibn Ishâq or Al-Waqîdî must be examined and verified. So, our legitimate question is: where is the isnâd (i.e., chain of reporters)?

Unfortunately, references of the Sîrah do not provide such information. Actually, we are told that this story has no isnâd at all; neither Ibn Ishâq (or his disciple Ibn Hîsham) nor Al-Waqîdî (or his disciple Ibn Sa'd) had provided such a thing! In this case, the story is rated by hadîth scholars as "...of no basis", indicating that it has reached the lowest degree of criticism regarding its isnâd. This is in fact a proper scientific position because we cannot accept such a problematic story without evidence.

In brief, we have no commitment to accept such a baseless story - according to scientific criteria of hadîth criticism - which strangely had appeared in the 2nd half of the 2nd century after Hijra. We are therefore obliged to reject the story of the killing of Abu 'Afak by Salîm Ibn 'Umaîr at the Prophet’s command.

The Killing of Asma': True Story or Forgery?

Basically the charge is that the Prophet(P) had ordered the killing of Asma' when she insulted him with her poetry. As it is usually the case where the history of Islam and the character of the Prophet(P) is concerned, it is left to the Muslims to throw some light on authenticity of the story in which this incident is reported by the sources and educate the missionaries in matters which they have no clue about.

The story of the killing of Asma' bint Marwan is mentioned by Ibn Sa'd in Kitab At-Tabaqat Al-Kabir[3] and by the author of Kinz-ul-'Ummal under number 44131 who attributes it to Ibn Sa'd, Ibn 'Adiyy and Ibn 'Asaker. What is interesting is that Ibn 'Adiyy mentions it in his book Al-Kamel on the authority of Ja'far Ibn Ahmad Ibn Muhammad Ibn As-Sabah on authority of Muhammad Ibn Ibrahim Ash-Shami on authority of Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj Al-Lakhmi on authority of Mujalid on authority of Ash-Shu'abi on authority of Ibn 'Abbas, and added that

...this isnâd (chain of reporters) is not narrated on authority of Mujalid but by Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj and they all (other reporters in the chain) accuse Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj of forging it.[4]

It is also reported by Ibn al-Gawzi in Al-'Ilal[5] and is listed among other flawed reports.

So according to its isnâd, the report is forged - because one of its reporters is notorious for fabricating hadîth. Hence, such a story is rejected and is better off being put into the trash can.

You can read the whole article via this link.

References:

[3] Ibn Sa'd, Kitab At-Tabaqat Al-Kabir, Vol. 1, pp. 27-28

[4] Ibn 'Adiyy, Al-Kamel, Vol. 6, p. 145

[5] Ibn al-Gawzi, Al-'Ilal, Vol. 1, p. 279

So my question is: why do you use stories which are not reliable to disparage prophet Muhammad (PBUH) Ali Sina?
Alhamdulillah I am a Muslim. Learn about Islam in Islam Site, Bismika Allahuma and Islamic Awareness. They will answer your queries and doubts...Insya Allah.

sum
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Re: Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by sum »

Hello kerenabiz

Using your own logic and reasoning it has to asked if the "Isnad" for the Koran is true and verifiable. Is it?

The Isnads for the examples that you gave are infinitely more reliable than the Isnad for the Koran where absolutely nothing is verifiable. Are you concerned about the suspect Isnad for the Koran? If you are concerned about the Isnads in your examples then you must be concerned about the Isnad for the Koran, That would be intellectual honesty. Are you intellectually honest?

sum

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kerenabiz
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Re: Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by kerenabiz »

Hi Sum

Yes I am intellectually honest, so answer the matter I brought in this thread: Why Ali Sina uses the stories which are not reliable or at least the unconfirmed ones? Please bring the proofs that the killing of the two who spoke against prophet Muhammad (PBUH) are reliable and verifiable!

And for AlQuran's issue you are invited to study its credibility and reliability in the following links:

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Mss/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Q_Studies/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Text/Qiraat/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Alhamdulillah I am a Muslim. Learn about Islam in Islam Site, Bismika Allahuma and Islamic Awareness. They will answer your queries and doubts...Insya Allah.

Multiple
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Re: Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by Multiple »

kerenabiz you Mohammedans tell us that the Koran was revealed to Mohammad in his epileptics cave over many nights and a few years by Jibril (HEARSAY) Jibril got it from Allah (HEARSAY) and Mohammad passes it on to many many different scribes (inimaginable HEARSAY) who years and years later collated what they could FIND of what they wrote on the bits and of Camels skin goat skin and shoulder blades into a Koran ordered by LENGTH of Sura and you are telling us that this slipshod bit of HEARSAY and CHANCE has an ISNAD. Are you insane.
Banned.

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Cassie
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Re: Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by Cassie »

The hadiths are no less reliable than the Quran, which as Sum pointed out, also doesn't have any isnads.

sum
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Re: Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by sum »

Hello kerenabiz

Your links say absolutely nothing about the claim of the validity and truth that Muhammad was a prophet who received revelations from Gabriel who received the messages from Allah to pass on to Muhammad. You and no-one in Islam, past and present, can confirm the Isnad above. All the isnad is nothing more than speculation with no proof whatsoever.

The whole of Islam rests on whether or not Muhammad was a prophet. If the claim that Muhammad was a prophet is rejected because there is not a scrap of evidence that he was then the whole of Islam collapses like a pack of cards and all you are left with is 7th century Bedouin arab culture. Do you want to follow 7th century Bedouin arab culture for all time?

If you are intellectually honest you have no option but to accept what I have said.

sum

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kerenabiz
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Re: Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by kerenabiz »

People...people come on you all know exactly my point in this thread is to questioning as to why Ali Sina uses the stories which are not reliable to toss a serious charge against prophet Muhammad (PBUH). That's this thread is all about. Thus answer what I am questioning, don't resort to red-herring in order to divert our attention to another issue.

So please prove me that the stories of the killing of Abu Afak and Asma are reliable! And then I will accept your proof if it's proven correct and true.

If you are unable to answer me, please don't participate in this thread, as you bring nothing but polluting this thread with irrelevant issues and gang bang me!
Alhamdulillah I am a Muslim. Learn about Islam in Islam Site, Bismika Allahuma and Islamic Awareness. They will answer your queries and doubts...Insya Allah.

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Cassie
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Re: Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by Cassie »

We're telling you that the Muslim apologetics that those stories are unreliable because they have no isnad is false because the Quran also doesn't have isnads.

Let me make this clear: the Quran doesn't have isnads yet you believe that it is reliable. Hence, you can't use the absence of isnads to infer reliability or otherwise. How easy is it to understand? Just be consistent and logical.

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kerenabiz
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Re: Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by kerenabiz »

Cassie wrote:We're telling you that the Muslim apologetics that those stories are unreliable because they have no isnad is false because the Quran also doesn't have isnads.

Let me make this clear: the Quran doesn't have isnads yet you believe that it is reliable. Hence, you can't use the absence of isnads to infer reliability or otherwise. How easy is it to understand? Just be consistent and logical.
I wonder do you know what the isnad (i.e., chain of reporters) is? Well, we surely demand the isnad from the stories of the killing of the two since they were introduced and recorded by the men (Ibn Sa'd and Ibn Ishâq) who didn't witness the incident, instead they came later after the prophet (PBUH) death and in Muslim tradition their stories must be supported with isnad to make the stories credible and reliable. And the killing of Abu Afak and Asma, we find no isnad to substantiates its credibility. In fact, Ibn Ishaq once driven away from Madina for relating a false hadith from a woman he didn't met.

And for Quran, it's compiled by the first generation of Muslim, which are sahabats under the authority of the caliphs (Abu Bakar (RA) and Uthman (RA)). Thus there is no need the existence of Isnad in this case, since the Quran is compiled by the people who witnessed the incidents and lived at the same time as prophet Muhammad (SAW). They witnessed and memorized the verses. Therefore I asked Sum to visit the links I posted earlier, he/she apparently refused to spend the times to visit the links instead feeling satisfied with what Ali Sina has spoon-fed to him/her.

So it's you and your friends don't understand with the point I am presenting in this thread. Please only respond with the topic of thread, or else stay silent!
Alhamdulillah I am a Muslim. Learn about Islam in Islam Site, Bismika Allahuma and Islamic Awareness. They will answer your queries and doubts...Insya Allah.

sum
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Re: Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by sum »

Hello kerenabiz

Your quote -
Therefore I asked Sum to visit the links I posted earlier, he/she apparently refused to spend the times to visit the links instead feeling satisfied with what Ali Sina has spoon-fed to him/her.

I did visit those sites and nowhere do they give any support for the proof of the isnad of the Koran. How can they - or you - verify the isnad for the Koran? Can you verify the existance of Allah? Can you verify the existance of Gabriel? Can you verify the transmission of the message to Gabriel from Allah and the transmission of the message from Gabriel to Muhammad?

Why do you concentrate on the minor matters in your original post when there is one isnad that stands out in a class of its own, head and shoulders above all others and of monumental importance - the isnad for the Koran? As I have said, the whole of Islam depends on the claims of one man, Muhammad, without any support whatsoever from any other source. Why on earth do you believe the words of this man who has been shown to have committed all the crimes that a person can commit - including the support of lying? Wake up, kerenabiz, and see things as they really are.

sum

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kerenabiz
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Re: Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by kerenabiz »

sum wrote:
I did visit those sites and nowhere do they give any support for the proof of the isnad of the Koran. How can they - or you - verify the isnad for the Koran? Can you verify the existance of Allah? Can you verify the existance of Gabriel? Can you verify the transmission of the message to Gabriel from Allah and the transmission of the message from Gabriel to Muhammad?

Why do you concentrate on the minor matters in your original post when there is one isnad that stands out in a class of its own, head and shoulders above all others and of monumental importance - the isnad for the Koran? As I have said, the whole of Islam depends on the claims of one man, Muhammad, without any support whatsoever from any other source. Why on earth do you believe the words of this man who has been shown to have committed all the crimes that a person can commit - including the support of lying? Wake up, kerenabiz, and see things as they really are.

sum
If all Muslims who come to this forum to demand explanations for Ali Sina or his friends charges against prophet Muhammad (PBUH), and then they are told to not being bothered with, instead they are told that hey! look your faith is baseless since no proof you get to believe that Al Quran is from God and prophet Muhammad (PBUH) is God's messenger. If that's what happens, no Muslims or non Muslims will be discussing anything here :D unless this forum only provides sub-forums to discuss about issues you present.

So answer me are the stories credible and reliable?
Alhamdulillah I am a Muslim. Learn about Islam in Islam Site, Bismika Allahuma and Islamic Awareness. They will answer your queries and doubts...Insya Allah.

sum
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Re: Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by sum »

Hello kerenabiz

Your quote -
So answer me are the stories credible and reliable?

I would unhesitatingly say that they are more reliable than the story of the Koran, Allah and Muhammad being a prophet.

What would you say?

sum

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Cassie
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Re: Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by Cassie »

The Quran itself doesn't have isnads so how do you know it's reliable? Some guys just said they remembered this or that verse and you think that's reliable?

We are responding to the topic because we are showing that your apologetics about isnads and reliability is nonsense.

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skynightblaze
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Re: Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by skynightblaze »

After looking at the following ahadith why should anyone believe that whatever Ibn Ishaq or Tabari were fabricating stories t o defame muhammad? Similar kind of stories are found in the ahadith so there should not be a problem for anyone to believe Tabari or Ishaq.
Spoiler! :
Killing those who criticize muhammad

Sahih muslim Book 019, Number 4436:

It has been narrated on the authority of Jabir that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Who will kill Ka'b b. Ashraf? He has maligned Allah, the Exalted, and His Messenger. Muhammad b. Maslama said: Messenger of Allah, do you wish that I should kill him? He said: Yes. He said: Permit me to talk (to him in the way I deem fit). He said: Talk (as you like). So, Muhammad b. Maslama came to Ka'b and talked to him, referred to the old friendship between them and said: This man (i. e. the Holy Prophet) has made up his mind to collect charity (from us) and this has put us to a great hardship. When be heard this, Ka'b said: By God, you will be put to more trouble by him. Muhammad b. Maslama said: No doubt, now we have become his followers and we do not like to forsake him until we see what turn his affairs will take. I want that you should give me a loan. He said: What will you mortgage? He said: What do you want? He said: Pledge me your women. He said: You are the most handsome of the Arabs; should we pledge our women to you? He said: Pledge me your children. He said: The son of one of us may abuse us saying that he was pledged for two wasqs of dates, but we can pledge you (cur) weapons. He said: All right. Then Muhammad b. Maslama promised that he would come to him with Harith, Abu 'Abs b. Jabr and Abbad b. Bishr. So they came and called upon him at night. He came down to them. Sufyan says that all the narrators except 'Amr have stated that his wife said: I hear a voice which sounds like the voice of murder. He said: It is only Muhammad b. Maslama and his foster-brother, Abu Na'ila. When a gentleman is called at night even it to be pierced with a spear, he should respond to the call. Muhammad said to his companions: As he comes down, I will extend my hands towards his head and when I hold him fast, you should do your job. So when he came down and he was holding his cloak under his arm, they said to him: We sense from you a very fine smell. He said: Yes, I have with me a mistress who is the most scented of the women of Arabia. He said: Allow me to smell (the scent on your head). He said: Yes, you may smell. So he caught it and smelt. Then he said: Allow me to do so (once again). He then held his head fast and said to his companions: Do your job. And they killed him.

Sunan Abu dawud Book 38, Number 4349:

Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:

A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. A man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.


Again the same.. A man kills his slave mother because she used to abuse muhammad and muhammad in the end says that no recompense was payable for her blood.

Abu Dawud 38:4348
Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas: A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace be upon him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop. He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to slander the Prophet (peace be upon him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger, placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came, the Prophet (peace be upon him) was informed about it.

He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up. Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up.

He sat before the Prophet (peace be upon him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly and pressed it till I killed her.

Thereupon the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood.

Anyway as Sum and Cassie say quran also becomes unreliable because isnads of quran also cannot be verified but these dishonest people will believe in quran no matter what but reject these biographies of muhammad for the same.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Re: Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by kerenabiz »

sum wrote:Hello kerenabiz

Your quote -
So answer me are the stories credible and reliable?

I would unhesitatingly say that they are more reliable than the story of the Koran, Allah and Muhammad being a prophet.

What would you say?

sum
Yes you may say anything about Al Quran, besides that's not the topic. My thread is to urging Ali Sina's clarification -- you're invited too if you're able to clarify -- for taking unreliable sources then used them to make charge against prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Can you clarify that? Or playing trick to diverts us from main issue and save Ali Sina from shame.
Alhamdulillah I am a Muslim. Learn about Islam in Islam Site, Bismika Allahuma and Islamic Awareness. They will answer your queries and doubts...Insya Allah.

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Re: Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by kerenabiz »

Cassie wrote:The Quran itself doesn't have isnads so how do you know it's reliable? Some guys just said they remembered this or that verse and you think that's reliable?

We are responding to the topic because we are showing that your apologetics about isnads and reliability is nonsense.
Just answer the topic I am presenting Cassie, don't resort to red-herring, I have no time for that :D
Alhamdulillah I am a Muslim. Learn about Islam in Islam Site, Bismika Allahuma and Islamic Awareness. They will answer your queries and doubts...Insya Allah.

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skynightblaze
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Re: Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by skynightblaze »

kerenabiz wrote:
Cassie wrote:The Quran itself doesn't have isnads so how do you know it's reliable? Some guys just said they remembered this or that verse and you think that's reliable?

We are responding to the topic because we are showing that your apologetics about isnads and reliability is nonsense.
Just answer the topic I am presenting Cassie, don't resort to red-herring, I have no time for that :D
She has raised a perfectly valid question. If you claim that isnad of biographies are not trustful then what makes you think isnads of quran are? If you believe in isnad of quran then you also need to believe in isnad of biographies. You are a hypocrite who cant even see how faulty his reasoning is.

Secondly I brought sources from ahadith which narrate similar kind of stories. The only difference is names have changed the but the acts are same and muhammad supported those acts so there is no reason as to why anyone should discard those reports from biographers because we see similar stories in ahadith. Case is closed you have lost.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Cassie
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Re: Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by Cassie »

I have already answered the question several times, and my answer goes straight to the question and thus is not a red herring. So, to repeat: I don't believe the hadiths are unreliable because the yardstick of reliability cannot be the presence or absence of isnads. This is because the Quran also doesn't have isnads and you consider it reliable.

Let me summarise:
hadiths no isnads = you say unreliable.
quarn no isnads = you say reliable.

Can't you see your double standards?

junkmaster
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Re: Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by junkmaster »

Hey kerenabiz,

I'm a little confused as to your point.

Are you saying that its okay to criticize and/or insult Muhammad and no one should ever be harmed or punished for insulting and/or criticizing Muhammad?

Or are you saying that the evidence Ali Sina presented is not reliable, but people should still be harmed or punished for insulting Muhammad?

thanks,

jm
"I wish the Bald Eagle had not been chosen as the representative of our country; he is a bird of bad moral character; like those among men who live by sharping and robbing, he is generally poor, and often very lousy. The turkey is a much more respectable bird." - Benjamin Franklin

Wootah
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Re: Ali Sina Did You Know About This?

Post by Wootah »

Apart from the no Isnads for the koran problem, the other problem Muslims have is that for 1400 years Muslims believed the hadiths. It is almost always the case that where a muslim has caught up to basic morality that he decides that this or that hadith is false. Honestly I am glad that kerenabiz has worked out that another one of the hadiths is immoral and that immorality does have a verifiable source - the koran and the life of Mohammad.

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