I think Ali will have to pay up

His life, his examples and his psychology
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phildidge
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I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by phildidge »

I have sent an email in regards to the challenge that Ali has made in regards to how he thinks mohammed is a terrorist ect ect and below i have refuted this simplky by stating there is no authentic evidence:

Dear Ali Sina

I have read your site on a few occasions and the reason a muslims will never win the debate, as it will go against their faith, but i also think you have over looked a flaw in your challenge.

I am an athiest and used to be a christian years ago, but have studied religion for some time and have come to the conclusion, that it is all man made.

Okay lets get to the point of this email, it is your claim that Mohammed is a Terrorist, a pedophile ect, ect ect, so lets look at the evidence as to your claim that he is.

The quran as far as I am aware was not compiled until at least a 150 years after mohammed died, the hadiths, do not appear until 300 years afterwards, these are the only documents around today that tell the story of mohammed, quite a length of time after the incident, leaving them open to being altered and changed, thus how authentic are they?

To me they are not authentic and man made, just like the bible, before the King Omri, there is no archeology to even say that anything before even happened in the bible, we have lots of murder, rape, genocide, by people chosen by Yahweh and even carries out genocide himself, but did any of these claims in the bible happen?
Did Yesuha really turn water into wine, did he raise from the dead, the answer is no, there is no evidence to say he did, just faith.
The same can be said with the life of mohammed, most is speculative and we have to rely on sources that are not authenticated, so did mohammed really rape or kill, the answer nobody knows, it is a matter of faith. What you are really saying is you believe the quran and hadiths to be true, but have no evidence they are, I don't believe them, is what makes me laugh when people claim islam is this or that, as if they believe what is documented is true, when they have no proof.

So to me unless you can prove mohammed did al the things you claimed , you owe me the money, as there is no evidence to back that he did, if you think it is, then Jeus must also have been the son of god, as we are relying on the gospels to be factual.

The problem Islam has to me, is rely on many hadiths, which they have no proof are real or authentic and many could have been written to introduce laws, what better way to do this than to claim mohammed had done so by a story, it does not make it so that it happened.
Muslims may well believe these stories true, so will never win the debate, but if you look from a logical and factual way, you have no evidence for your claim.

So unless you do have evidence, your challenge is speculative.

I look forward to your reply.

Phil
Idesigner
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Re: I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by Idesigner »

Hope you are not Koran only Muslim and playing Takiya here.

Only way I can believe you if you declare and sign that Koran was lie, Mohemmed was Fraud beacuse Koran and hadiths tell me that.

I am familiar with dawa technique of Koran only muslims.. Atheist or christian of past but never telling us that they are not muslims. They know they can go to hell for that.Even their Takiya has got limit.

Yes all religions are man made. God does not right any book because he is a dumb Jew in the sky. Some people write book and tell us its from a super Mullah or Yhwh in the sky.

Here all muslims for last 1400 years have believed in literal meaning of Koran all based on their authentic hadith. When they claim that Mohemmed was last , blameless prophet, sure guys like Ali want to prove them wrong.
sum
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Re: I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by sum »

Hello phildidge

Your quote -
so did mohammed really rape or kill, the answer nobody knows,

Is there any proof that Muhammad actually received the "revelations"? There is no proof at all. Using your argument the Koran is just as bogus as the ahadith.

Do you believe that Muhammad received revelations?

sum
phildidge
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Re: I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by phildidge »

Idesigner wrote:Hope you are not Koran only Muslim and playing Takiya here.

Only way I can believe you if you declare and sign that Koran was lie, Mohemmed was Fraud beacuse Koran and hadiths tell me that.

I am familiar with dawa technique of Koran only muslims.. Atheist or christian of past but never telling us that they are not muslims. They know they can go to hell for that.Even their Takiya has got limit.

Yes all religions are man made. God does not right any book because he is a dumb Jew in the sky. Some people write book and tell us its from a super Mullah or Yhwh in the sky.

Here all muslims for last 1400 years have believed in literal meaning of Koran all based on their authentic hadith. When they claim that Mohemmed was last , blameless prophet, sure guys like Ali want to prove them wrong.
Nothing to do with any of the above, like I say am an athiest.
Whether muslims believe word for word the quran, is any of it back by historical evidence, there maybe for say evidence of battles with archeology, but you have to take the quran at face value and that is not proof.
An example, with have accounts of Julius Caesar, where the victor always writes in regard tot accounts of his life, we know that some have been elaborated.
There are other contempoary works around this time, but none in regards to mohammed, he may not have even exsisted as some scholars would argue, though am not going down that road.
The point is how do you authenticate any of the m,aterial from the quran and hadiths, when they are so long after the events.
I have found a loop hole and am saying Ali's claim is speculative which it is, there is no real evidence, unless you believe the hadiths and quran to be true, which doesn't make them true as evidence.
Maybe I just want the money.
phildidge
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Re: I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by phildidge »

sum wrote:Hello phildidge

Your quote -
so did mohammed really rape or kill, the answer nobody knows,

Is there any proof that Muhammad actually received the "revelations"? There is no proof at all. Using your argument the Koran is just as bogus as the ahadith.

Do you believe that Muhammad received revelations?

sum
Hello Sum

No I don't believe he received any revalations.
sum
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Re: I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by sum »

Hello phildidge

Ali Sina is arguing from what mainstream Islam believes. He is playing them at their own game.

sum
phildidge
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Re: I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by phildidge »

sum wrote:Hello phildidge

Ali Sina is arguing from what mainstream Islam believes. He is playing them at their own game.

sum
Hello Sum

Good luck to him, but that is irrelevent to the claim he has made, it may be a flaw, but it proves that he cannot claim such in regards to someone who has not been around for 1400 years.
If he wishes to point out flaws in any of the faiths, I do also, this is fine, but to mak a factual claim in regard to mohammed, you need evidence, it is like when people claim Jesus did this or that, we can only rely on faith if they wish to believe.
Idesigner
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Re: I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by Idesigner »

phildidge wrote:
sum wrote:Hello phildidge

Ali Sina is arguing from what mainstream Islam believes. He is playing them at their own game.

sum
Hello Sum

Good luck to him, but that is irrelevent to the claim he has made, it may be a flaw, but it proves that he cannot claim such in regards to someone who has not been around for 1400 years.
If he wishes to point out flaws in any of the faiths, I do also, this is fine, but to mak a factual claim in regard to mohammed, you need evidence, it is like when people claim Jesus did this or that, we can only rely on faith if they wish to believe.
We all know very well that it is a big gimmick on part of Ali or Faith freedom to make muslims worked up and come here to defend the faith. It did work. Ofcourse It is as bad as winning Readers Digest sweep stakes.After all who will be acceptable judge or jury between Ali and Muslims defending the faith? It has to be settled by third party. There wont be any third party.

Islam is not like Christianity.Christianity rests on claim of Jesus being lord of the day of judgement.The day lord was killed whole claim was nulified. After all Islam is the most perfect religion of the world. Its not a faith but its scientific truth just as true as gravity and electricity, big bang... Each and every word Mohmmed received was from god.. Million muslims would die or kill othes if this scientific truth is challanged. Try the challange in Pakistan or SA, you can get killed. Hence Ali wants to challange those who want to kill or get killed for faith.The challange is not for some weak kneed academicians. :oops:
sum
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Re: I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by sum »

Hello phildidge

The information about Muhammad is factual as far as mainstream Islam is concerned. Muslims can not have it both ways - they accept as fact what Muhammad said and did and so using the muslims` own "logic" Ali makes his claims about the evil that Muhammad committed as detailed in the Islamic historical records written by muslims themselves.

To prove Ali Sina wrong you will also have to prove that muslims are wrong to believe the Islamic historical records. You can`t attempt to prove Ali Sina wrong while the muslims accept as fact what they recorded about Muhammad. There has to be a level playing field.

sum
phildidge
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Re: I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by phildidge »

Idesigner wrote:
phildidge wrote:
sum wrote:Hello phildidge

Ali Sina is arguing from what mainstream Islam believes. He is playing them at their own game.

sum
Hello Sum

Good luck to him, but that is irrelevent to the claim he has made, it may be a flaw, but it proves that he cannot claim such in regards to someone who has not been around for 1400 years.
If he wishes to point out flaws in any of the faiths, I do also, this is fine, but to mak a factual claim in regard to mohammed, you need evidence, it is like when people claim Jesus did this or that, we can only rely on faith if they wish to believe.
We all know very well that it is a big gimmick on part of Ali or Faith freedom to make muslims worked up and come here to defend the faith. It did work. Ofcourse It is as bad as winning Readers Digest sweep stakes.After all who will be acceptable judge or jury between Ali and Muslims defending the faith? It has to be settled by third party. There wont be any third party.

Islam is not like Christianity.Christianity rests on claim of Jesus being lord of the day of judgement.The day lord was killed whole claim was nulified. After all Islam is the most perfect religion of the world. Its not a faith but its scientific truth just as true as gravity and electricity, big bang... Each and every word Mohmmed received was from god.. Million muslims would die or kill othes if this scientific truth is challanged. Try the challange in Pakistan or SA, you can get killed. Hence Ali wants to challange those who want to kill or get killed for faith.The challange is not for some weak kneed academicians. :oops:
The above is opinion, muslims can believe what hey like, it doesn't mean what they are following is a devine message or is factual and that is the problem, no thrid party needed I am afraid.
I am not hear to debate muslims on whether their quran is true, but Ali has made a challemnge in regards to mohammed's life, with the only evidence provided by works, that cannot be authenticated.
he is welcome to challenge muslims, that is his choice, mine is to debunk his claim in regards to mohammed, which I have done.
Sorry but it does not state who the challenge is for and is a weak excuse, my points still stand, please try and disprove.
phildidge
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Re: I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by phildidge »

sum wrote:Hello phildidge

The information about Muhammad is factual as far as mainstream Islam is concerned. Muslims can not have it both ways - they accept as fact what Muhammad said and did and so using the muslims` own "logic" Ali makes his claims about the evil that Muhammad committed as detailed in the Islamic historical records written by muslims themselves.

To prove Ali Sina wrong you will also have to prove that muslims are wrong to believe the Islamic historical records. You can`t attempt to prove Ali Sina wrong while the muslims accept as fact what they recorded about Muhammad. There has to be a level playing field.

sum
Hello Sum
That it may be for muslims, that does not mean it is factual. To use for argument sake verses, then the person must believe they are true and this happens quite alot from arguments I see in regards to the life of Mohammed.
Christians also believe Christ did many things, are they factual because they believe them? Of course not.
We do base History on faith but facts.
Again I do not need to prove any muslim wrong, as this is not the challenge, Ali has made speculative claims in regards to a Character, claiming they are Historical, which is incorrect.
Mohammed may well have done these things, but he has no proof, sorry, but this is the case and he has lost the challenge.

Just to add, here is the challenge:

If you do not like this site and want me to remove it, instead of acting as a bully or as a victim, disprove my charges against Muhammad logically. Not only will I remove the site, I will publicly announce that Islam is a true religion. I will also pay

$50,000 U.S. dollars

to anyone who can disprove any of the dozen of the accusations that I have made against Muhammad. I accuse Muhammad of being:

Then we have the list of allegations, which have been taken from mythical stories.
sum
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Re: I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by sum »

Hello phildidge

I understand very well the line of argument that you are taking but in this case it is not the only line. Like you, I believe that there should be irrefutable facts but there are none. The line that Ali takes is one that is based on the Islamic belief that what is recorded by the muslims regarding Muhammad is fact. I think that this is more than reasonable to base the argument on the line of muslim belief and use what they believe is fact. The muslims can only argue on this basis unless they want to reject the muslims` own recorded history of Muhammad`s words and deeds. The Koran only muslims will still have a difficult time rejecting the ahadith because the Koran supports most of them.

I can only say that the challenge that Ali has made has been correctly based.

sum
phildidge
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Re: I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by phildidge »

sum wrote:Hello phildidge

I understand very well the line of argument that you are taking but in this case it is not the only line. Like you, I believe that there should be irrefutable facts but there are none. The line that Ali takes is one that is based on the Islamic belief that what is recorded by the muslims regarding Muhammad is fact. I think that this is more than reasonable to base the argument on the line of muslim belief and use what they believe is fact. The muslims can only argue on this basis unless they want to reject the muslims` own recorded history of Muhammad`s words and deeds. The Koran only muslims will still have a difficult time rejecting the ahadith because the Koran supports most of them.

I can only say that the challenge that Ali has made has been correctly based.

sum
Hi Sum
I understand what he is doing, like I say, he bases them not on facts, as they can not be authenticated, he has made a rash decision in his challenge and I am talking advantage of that mistake, not my fault he did not make it clear is it really, it may be a flaw, but I am entittled to take advantage, as I can claim his stance is speculative and not factual.
phildidge
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Re: I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by phildidge »

Ali's reply:

I hear this argument often, not just from non-Muslims but also from Muslims who want to deny the authenticity of hadith to acquit Muhammad of his crimes. What these people have in common is that they have not read the books of history of Islam. There are thousands upon thousands of names mentioned in biographies of Muhammad - particularly by Ibn Sa’d in his eight volumes of Tabaqat. He relates all these people together and you can make a giant genealogical tree of everyone. This feat is impossible without having a powerful database. There was absolutely no need to mention all these names if they were not real persons. The Bible can be fiction. But the history of Islam is written meticulously. There are many exaggerations and false hadiths but it is very easy to separate the true ones from the false ones. Based on the sira of Muhammad we can construct the history of Islam with precision.



The Quran was not collected 150 years after Muhammad. It was collected during his life. It was saved on various papers and camel blades. Ottman then compiled them in one book. Also Muslims had memorized the verses from the time they were written down. There was no chance of fabricating them since hundreds of people knew the verses by heart.



Instead of trying to convince you, I suggest you read the Tabaqat of Iban Sa’d, the history of Tabari and the Sira of Ibn Ishaq.



Regards



Ali Sina
phildidge
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Re: I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by phildidge »

My reply:

Sorry but to claim memorizing is not factual, it leaves it open to interpretation.
How old is the first complete quran in exsistance?
Verbal traditions are not factual in regards to the compilation of the quran, you will have to do better than that and many western scholars challenge this.
As to other writers, when were they written?
It still is no answer to the fact the quran cannot be authenticated.
Do you acknowledge that the hadiths were not in circulation until a few hundre years after?
How can you authenticate them?
Sorry all you are doing is giving me what other people have written in regards to his life, that does not offer proof I am afraid, neither do verbal stories.
The floor is still yours to prove he did any of the claims that has been stated in the quran or hadiths.
I mean lets face it, some scholars argue whether mohammed even exsisted.
What archeology has been discovered in this field.
What other contempoary writers have written in regard to mohammed at this time?
Sorry, you have proved nothing, the challenge is on.
sum
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Re: I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by sum »

Hello phildidge

The challenge was to the muslims to prove Ali`s charges wrong. It must be understood that muslims do regard the details as facts - so much so that they form the basis of most of sharia. Muslims can only argue along the lines that the records are true or they would destroy Islam if they argued that they were not. If you were a muslim how would you go about rejecting Ali`s claims if you could not reject the records?

The Koran supports most of the atrocities that Muhammad committed and gives authority to Muhammad to do as the ahadith claim that he did. Your line of argument would have merit with the non-muslims but not with the muslims.

sum
phildidge
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Re: I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by phildidge »

sum wrote:Hello phildidge

The challenge was to the muslims to prove Ali`s charges wrong. It must be understood that muslims do regard the details as facts - so much so that they form the basis of most of sharia. Muslims can only argue along the lines that the records are true or they would destroy Islam if they argued that they were not. If you were a muslim how would you go about rejecting Ali`s claims if you could not reject the records?

The Koran supports most of the atrocities that Muhammad committed and gives authority to Muhammad to do as the ahadith claim that he did. Your line of argument would have merit with the non-muslims but not with the muslims.

sum
Hi Sum

But my debate is not with muslims, i do that enough already, it is on the claim, I even now challenge Ali on the origins of the quran, as to say everyone memorized this and then put pen to paper, is not the bases to claim it is authentic, how can we authenticate this legend for starters. Many western scholars challenge this, so i will wait to see what he replies, it is silly to make a challnge and then not rise to it, whether or not the challenge comes from an athiest.
To me from his response he believes the quran to be accurate, many of the gosples are earlier in written form to christ than the quran is in time fram to mohammed, but how many claim the stories are factual, it is down to faith.
There is now way he can prove it is not altered, as there is no quran in exsistance from that time still around today.
I reject Islam full stop, but it would be like me having a debate on Christianity in regards to Christs life, like with islam, there is little in other contempoary works to show or say in regards to them.
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ygalg
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Re: I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by ygalg »

did the wolf dressed like a grandma and laid on the bed replying to
red riding hood questions? but wait a minute this is just a a fairy tale.
as far as the story concerns it did.
“a true believer as a person so fanatically committed to a cause that no amount of reality can make him abandon it” Eric Hoffer
phildidge
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Re: I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by phildidge »

ygalg wrote:did the wolf dressed like a grandma and laid on the bed replying to
red riding hood questions? but wait a minute this is just a a fairy tale.
as far as the story concerns it did.
Well it would be a new scientific discovery to find a talking wolf!!
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IoshkaFutz
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Re: I think Ali will have to pay up

Post by IoshkaFutz »

You deny the existence of what is being talked about. That's your mind game and have a ball. It doesn't change Ali's challenge one bit. All it takes is another mind game.

Let's say the challenge was about a Sherlock Holmes whom everybody took for granted as real figure. Ali places a bet about him. That bet is based on all of Sir Arthur Conan Doyle's works.

It can concern his love life. If Ali says that there were three important women in his life, Irene Adler, Maud Bellamy and Mary Russell and the other side claims that he never once felt a pang of love... Ali would win the bet.

Then if you came around and announced that Sherlock Holmes never existed, nothing at all would change.

Sherlock holmes, whether fictitious or real had three important women in his life.

In the case of Mohammad. Ali's claim a Terrorist, a pedophile, etc. etc. He uses Islamic texts to prove it.

The real issue is that Muslims believe Mohammad to be a good man and an example to follow despite what is written in their own texts. It is entirely a moral question.
“The ultimate test of a moral society is the kind of world that it leaves to its children.”
Dietrich Bonhoeffer - German Lutheran Pastor and Theologian. His involvement in a plot to overthrow Adolf Hitler led to his imprisonment and execution. 1906-1945
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