Page 5 of 25

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 09, 2010 9:27 pm
by Ibn Rushd
No I'm not suggesting that. For me it was curiosity of how the spelling of the name changed with respect to religion and language.

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 11:38 pm
by booktalker
Dear The Cat - I wonder if you are still watching this thread...? What you have said is intriguing, and ever since, I've been taking a crash course in Islamic history - mainly reading the articles in the thread you posted at Reocities (http://www.reocities.com/spenta_mainyu/Islam4.htm) and double-checking stuff on Wikipedia etc.

I have lots of questions but am still trying to get to grips with things... However, one thing in that link struck me. He said (my coloured emphases):

In 1994, Professor Sinasi Gündüz published an extensive study in the Journal of Semitic Studies showing conclusively that the Mandaeans and Sabians are the same; the remnants of a very ancient monotheistic religion which originated in or about eastern Syria and northern Iraq sometime about 4000 B.C... Mandaeans were considered as the keepers of the ‘ancient secret knowledge’ dating back to the Sumerians and they believed in the sole ‘prime mover’. Kuran 4:162 is very informative:

“Those of them who are deep in knowledge and the faithful (mu’minîn, mu’minûn) who believe both in what is revealed to you and what has been revealed before you. They have their daily prayers, they pay their alms, they believe in Allah and the judgment day. We will have a big reward for them soon.”

It would not be wrong to consider Sabianism as a unique faith/cult, which is a collection of doctrines from Sumerian myths, Manichaeism, animism, primal religions, idolatry etc. Especially Islam has adopted a great number of those doctrines.


Well, if I was a Muslim, I'd say that proves Islam has existed since the time of Abraham - we adopt those practices now because they were Islamic then.

Abraham's faith grew as God revealed himself. By the time we see him in Genesis 12 he is a monotheist, a worshipper of one God.
(http://www.jesuswalk.com/abraham/0_intro.htm)

How would you refute that assertion?

BT X

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 17, 2010 3:53 pm
by The Cat
booktalker wrote:if I was a Muslim, I'd say that proves Islam has existed since the time of Abraham -
we adopt those practices now because they were Islamic then.

Hi 'booktalker'

Islam certainly asserts that everyone is born a Muslim (Hindus say the same on their side)
viewtopic.php?p=99263#p99263
http://www.answering-islam.org/Mna/muslim.html

There's no doubt to me that the Chaldean mysteries (Sabian, Mandaean) got into Islam. I see two historical facts behind it:
--Nabonidus stayed in Tayma for 10 years, importing the moongod cult from Harran.
--The Abbasid dynasty originated from the Khorasan region, then immigrated to Harran.

And then Abraham stayed in Harran too for a long while. So the place is axial...

Who Were the Nasoreans?
viewtopic.php?p=88984#p88984
The Akkadian & Assyrian roots of NSR
viewtopic.php?p=89466#p89466

Sabians
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabians
http://tribes.tribe.net/pagans_of_the_e ... ea095ff5de

Sorry for this post being kind of succinct. That's about all the time I have for now.
Bye.

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 10:07 am
by phill01
Thanks for the link Bookteller (Reocites)...an interesting read so far.

For Cat: since it appears the Reocites posts is yours, i am hoping you can answer a few questions for me. First of all, I didnt realise that on my post where I showed that the direction of three Ummayed Mosque's pointed to Al Ula had such implications as to when I started reading your ideas on where Mohammad came from. So if anything I am glad I have offered you something more to think about.

Q1: In your Reocites post you mention Mohammad as 1 person but on this post your trying to show 2 with Salman the Persian and Muslimah. I understand learning is a never ending adventure, and am wondering if the Reocites posts is older or newer than this topic ?.

Q2: Do yo uthink Mohammad left Al- Ula because of the vacinity of the Romans and thus moved to Medina to escape them. ?

Q3: One thing thats strikes me about "Why Mecca". i have a theory as to why Mecca was chosen to build around the life of Mohammad, despite Politics and wanting Islam to be purely Arabic, is that Mecca had no lenghty history to it, which made it an ideal place to build one around Mohammad.

Best Regards

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 11:22 am
by yeezevee
phill01 wrote:Q3: One thing thats strikes me about "Why Mecca". i have a theory as to why Mecca was chosen to build around the life of Mohammad, despite Politics and wanting Islam to be purely Arabic, is that Mecca had no lenghty history to it, which made it an ideal place to build one around Mohammad.
phill01 joins a ffi to write in to this fascinating thread., When you say "that Mecca had no lengthy history to it,", you mean to say that there was no town as Mecca during Muhammad's town dear phill01? I was under the impression that Mecca town was pretty lively twon in 5th century on wards.., It appears that Muhammad was a Myth and now Mecca was a myth...

Well Islam is running on many myths for a long time ., Any way welcome to ffi..

with best wishes
yeezevee

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:28 pm
by booktalker
Thanks, The Cat. I ain't finished yet, but you have opened a door for me into a new world and I'm now travelling down the road towards the dawn of civilisation, so to speak. In order to understand what Islam is about and why, I realise that I have to read and learn about the birth of religion and how it's influenced everything ever since (and still does. We're STILL worshipping idols!). It's a fascinating journey, but it may take me some time. The truth is amazing.

Yeezeevee - no, there was no such place as Mecca in the 7th century. It makes all the ranting on this site about Muhammad and his life and times totally irrelevant, as almost all of it is fabricated.

Abu Bakr? Uthman? Burning of the Qur'an in 650? Nope - none of that happened. The Arabs only BEGAN to compile the Qur'an around 705 (because they needed to invent their own religious history - hadiths are all made up to make it look as though Muhammad, Mecca etc were the root of Islam. They weren't. Read The Cat's thread here again. Follow the links).

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 12:50 pm
by yeezevee
booktalker wrote:................

Yeezeevee - no, there was no such place as Mecca in the 7th century. It makes all the ranting on this site about Muhammad and his life and times totally irrelevant, as almost all of it is fabricated.

Abu Bakr? Uthman? Burning of the Qur'an in 650? Nope - none of that happened. The Arabs only BEGAN to compile the Qur'an around 705 (because they needed to invent their own religious history - hadiths are all made up to make it look as though Muhammad, Mecca etc were the root of Islam. They weren't. Read The Cat's thread here again. Follow the links).
Thank you for your wonderful comments dear booktalker., I reserve my opinion on that subject of "whether there was town named Mecca(Becca..bicca... whatever) during 5th century or not ". More information is needed on that and more over history academics should publish the works in some peer reviewed journals until the rest of world accepts that notion.

But..but this I don't understand., Why do you say this??
"It makes all the ranting on this site about Muhammad and his life and times totally irrelevant, as almost all of it is fabricated."

Is it (ranting on Muhammad) not needed to educate the public., Muslim and non-Muslims? You know well that it comes out of hadith/sunnah and some even in Quran., is it not utter rubbish and has to be deleted from the history of Islam to make this little planet better than what it is?? Why blame the sites like FFI instead of blaming educate Muslim ROBOTS and Muslim historians??

Any ways I am just curious here., what do you think is the better way of educating public?

1). There was no Muhammad, No mecca and no Real Islam until and around 705., It is all cock-bull story or..or..

2). Muhammad Character that appears in hadith/Sunnah and even in Quran after the death of his first wife Khadija is nothing but criminal hence Islam is false religion., it is actually a cult of Muhammad's character in disguise as religion?

with best wishes
yeezevee

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:03 pm
by booktalker
Dear Yeezeevee

There are already many trustworthy sources of information out there. See Patricia Crone (article: http://www.opendemocracy.net/faith-euro ... d_3866.jsp) , even Ibn Warraq. This information is based on irrefutable evidence and has been verified by many scholars. Look at the growing movement of "Qur'an only" Muslims, or "Quranyons". They have had to accept that the majority of accounts of the life and times of Muhammad are fabricated and not to be trusted. All they have left of their faith is the Qur'an (they don't dare take that last step of examining the origins of that document - yet..).

I think it will come. Even Muslims say that the most beautiful thing is the truth. You don't even have to deny the possibility of the existence of a God, if you don't want to (because that's one truth no-one can prove one way or the other!). Read, examine, educate yourself and others, find out the facts - that's how things will change. You say

it is actually a cult of Muhammad's character in disguise as religion


Well yes, indeed - and that was always the intention of the Arabs - to have their own religion that trumped Judaeism and Christianity. But they had to make it up as they went along. Why do you think there was an effective ban on questioning the origins and meaning of Islam between the 11th and early 13th centuries? Why were cynical movements and individuals (educated scholars, poets etc) silenced or even put to death? Because those who had invented Islam for their own purposes realised that if people investigated too closely, they would find out that it was not based on facts and truth, but on stories made up to control and conquer. Of course they were afraid that if the truth came out, it would ruin what they had set out to achieve - and it's ever thus (but hopefully not for much longer).

It's called "Ijtihad". Quote from http://www.ijtihad.org/ijtihad.htm:

In reality, this view is designed to stifle independent thought among Muslims and to confine the right to understand and explain Islam to Muslim jurists. It is also opposed to reasoning, because it essentially says that reason shall be employed only when the texts are silent and no medieval scholar has addressed the issue under scrutiny. Reason, according to this viewpoint, is the last resort for understanding the will of God. For those who hold this view, opening the doors of ijtihad would make no difference, since their very conception of it is impoverished and limited.

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 2:20 pm
by yeezevee
booktalker wrote: Why do you think there was an effective ban on questioning the origins and meaning of Islam between the 11th and early 13th centuries? Why were cynical movements and individuals (educated scholars, poets etc) silenced or even put to death? Because those who had invented Islam for their own purposes realised that if people investigated too closely, they would find out that it was not based on facts and truth, but on stories made up to control and conquer.
Thank you for your fascinating reply dear booktalker., I am curious here., would it not be better to discuss Islam thoroughly starting from the birth of Prophet of Islam(even if it was all silly story?) Let me put briefly this history of Islam until 8th century ., please tell me as a student of History what is right and what is wrong in it .

Chronological History of violent expansion of Islam Starting From Mohammad

545: Birth of Abdullah, the Holy Prophet's father.
571: Birth of the Holy Prophet. Year of the Elephant. Invasion of Makkah by Abraha the Viceroy of Yemen, his retreat.
577: The Holy Prophet visits Madina with his mother. Death of his mother.
580: Death of Abdul Muttalib, the grandfather of the Holy Prophet.
583: The Holy Prophet's journey to Syria in the company of his uncle Abu Talib. His meeting with the monk Bahira at Bisra who foretells of his prophethood.
586: The Holy Prophet participates in the war of Fijar.
591: The Holy Prophet becomes an active member of "Hilful Fudul", a league for the relief of the distressed.
594: The Holy Prophet becomes the Manager of the business of Lady Khadija, and leads her trade caravan to Syria and back.
595: The Holy Prophet marries Hadrat Khadija. Seventh century


We must realize until this time i.e. year 594., there is nothing big deal about that young fellow Mr. Mohammad., no hint of any God/Allaha choosing him as his/her/its messenger.. But many of the so-called Islamic religious teachers write so much nonsense about this guy even before that alleged Allaha revelations took place in that Hira cave.

So according to you guys who consider Early Islam Muhammad/Quran is cock -bull story ., all the above historical account is nonsense..

7th Century (600-699) C.E. ISLAM


605: The Holy Prophet arbitrates in a dispute among the Quraish about the placing of the Black Stone in the Kaaba.
610: The first revelation in the cave at Mt. Hira. The Holy Prophet is commissioned as the Messenger of God.
613: Declaration at Mt. Sara inviting the general public to Islam.

614: Invitation to the Hashimites to accept Islam.
615: Persecution of the Muslims by the Quraish. A party of Muslims leaves for Abyssinia.
616: Second Hijrah to Abysinnia.
617: Social boycott of the Hashimites and the Holy Prophet by the Quraish. The Hashimites are shut up in a glen outside Makkah.
619: Lifting of the boycott. Deaths of Abu Talib and Hadrat Khadija. Year of sorrow.


We must realize until this time mr. Mohammad and his Islam is nothing but a local feudal class fighting with each other for power with in couple of towns. His REAL ISLAM started after the death of his first wife Khadija.

620: Journey to Taif. Ascension to the heavens.
621: First pledge at Aqaba.
622: Second pledge at Aqaba. The Holy Prophet and the Muslims migrate to Yathrib.
623: Nakhla expedition.
624: Battle of Badr. Expulsion of the Bani Qainuqa Jews from Madina.
625: Battle of Uhud. Massacre of 70 Muslims at Bir Mauna. Expulsion of Banu Nadir Jews from Madina. Second expedition of Badr.
626: Expedition of Banu Mustaliq.
627: Battle of the Trench. Expulsion of Banu Quraiza Jews.
628: Truce of Hudaibiya. Expedition to Khyber. The Holy Prophet addresses letters to various heads of states.
629: The Holy Prophet performs the pilgrimage at Makkah. Expedition to Muta (Romans).
630: Conquest of Makkah. Battles of Hunsin, Auras, and Taif.
631: Expedition to Tabuk. Year of Deputations.
632: Farewell pilgrimage at Makkah.
632: Death of the Holy Prophet.Election of Hadrat Abu Bakr as the Caliph. Usamah leads expedition to Syria. Battles of Zu Qissa and Abraq. Battles of Buzakha, Zafar and Naqra. Campaigns against Bani Tamim and Musailima, the Liar.


633: Campaigns in Bahrain, Oman, Mahrah Yemen, and Hadramaut. Raids in Iraq. Battles of Kazima, Mazar, Walaja, Ulleis, Hirah, Anbar, Ein at tamr, Daumatul Jandal and Firaz.
634: Battles of Basra, Damascus and Ajnadin. Death of Hadrat Abu Bakr. Hadrat Umar Farooq becomes the Caliph. Battles of Namaraq and Saqatia.
635: Battle of Bridge. Battle of Buwaib. Conquest of Damascus. Battle of Fahl.
636: Battle of Yermuk. Battle of Qadsiyia. Conquest of Madain.
637: Conquest of Syria. Fall of Jerusalem. Battle of Jalula.
638: Conquest of Jazirah.
639: Conquest of Khuizistan. Advance into Egypt.
640: Capture of the post of Caesaria in Syria. Conquest of Shustar and Jande Sabur in Persia. Battle of Babylon in Egypt.
641: Battle of Nihawand. Conquest Of Alexandria in Egypt.
642: Battle of Rayy in Persia. Conquest of Egypt. Foundation of Fustat.
643: Conquest of Azarbaijan and Tabaristan (Russia).
644: Conquest of Fars, Kerman, Sistan, Mekran and Kharan.Martyrdom of Hadrat Umar. Hadrat Othman becomes the Caliph.
645: Campaigns in Fats.
646: Campaigns in Khurasan, Armeain and Asia Minor.
647: Campaigns in North Africa. Conquest of the island of Cypress.
648: Campaigns against the Byzantines.
651: Naval battle of the Masts against the Byzantines.
652: Discontentment and disaffection against the rule of Hadrat Othman.
656: Martyrdom of Hadrat Othman. Hadrat Ali becomes the Caliph. Battle of the Camel.
657: Hadrat Ali shifts the capital from Madina to Kufa. Battle of Siffin. Arbitration proceedings at Daumaut ul Jandal.
658: Battle of Nahrawan.
659: Conquest of Egypt by Mu'awiyah.
660: Hadrat Ali recaptures Hijaz and Yemen from Mu'awiyah. Mu'awiyah declares himself as the Caliph at Damascus.
661: Martyrdom of Hadrat Ali. Accession of Hadrat Hasan and his abdication. Mu'awiyah becomes the sole Caliph.
662: Khawarij revolts.
666: Raid of Sicily.
670: Advance in North Africa. Uqba b Nafe founds the town of Qairowan in Tunisia. Conquest of Kabul.
672: Capture of the island of Rhodes. Campaigns in Khurasan.
674: The Muslims cross the Oxus. Bukhara becomes a vassal state.
677: Occupation of Sarnarkand and Tirmiz. Siege of Constantinople.
680: Death of Muawiyah. Accession of Yazid. Tragedy of Kerbala and martyrdom of Hadrat Hussain.
682: In North Africa Uqba b Nafe marches to the Atlantic, is ambushed and killed at Biskra. The Muslims evacuate Qairowan and withdraw to Burqa.
683: Death of Yazid. Accession of Mu'awiyah II.
684: Abdullah b Zubair declares himself aS the Caliph at'Makkah. Marwan I becomes the Caliph' at Damascus. Battle of Marj Rahat.
685: Death of Marwan I. Abdul Malik becomes the Caliph at Damascus. Battle of Ain ul Wada.
686: Mukhtar declares himself as the Caliph at Kufa.
687: Battle of Kufa between the forces of Mukhtar and Abdullah b Zubair. Mukhtar killed.
691: Battle of Deir ul Jaliq. Kufa falls to Abdul Malik.
692: The fall of Makkah. Death of Abdullah b Zubair. Abdul Malik becomes the sole Caliph.
695: Khawarij revolts in Jazira and Ahwaz. Battle of the Karun. Campaigns against Kahina in North Africa. The' Muslims once again withdraw to Barqa. The Muslims advance in Transoxiana and occupy Kish.
UNTIL THIS ALL THIS IS RUBBISH right dear "booktalker"?? and real Islam along with Quran starts somewhere here in the 8th Century (700-799) C.E.

700: Campaigns against the Berbers in North Africa.
702: Ashath's rebellion in Iraq, battle of Deir ul Jamira.
705: Death of Abdul Malik. Accession of Walid I as Caliph.
711: Conquest of Spain, Sind and Transoxiana.
712: The Muslims advance in Spain, Sind and Transoxiana.
713: Conquest of Multan.
715: Death of Walid I. Accession of Sulaiman.
716: Invasion of Constantinople.
717: Death of Sulaiman. Accession of Umar b Abdul Aziz.
720: Death of Umar b Abdul Aziz. Accession of Yazid II.
724: Death of Yazid II. Accession of Hisham.
725: The Muslims occupy Nimes in France.
732: The battle of Tours in France.
737: The Muslims meet reverse at Avignon in France.
740: Shia revolt under Zaid b Ali. Berber revolt in North Africa. Battle of the Nobles.
741: Battle of Bagdoura in North Africa.
742: The Muslim rule restored in Qiarowan.
743: Death of Hisham. Accession of Walid II. Shia revolt in Khurasan under Yahya b Zaid.
744: Deposition of Walid I1. Accession of Yazid II1 and his death. Accession of Ibrahim and his overthrow. Battle of Ain al Jurr. Accession of Marwan II.
745: Kufa and Mosul occupied by the Khawarjites.
746: Battle of Rupar Thutha, Kufa and Mosul occupied by Marwan II.
747: Revolt of Abu Muslim in Khurasan.
748: Battle of Rayy.
749: Battles of lsfahan and Nihawand. Capture of Kufa by the Abbasids. As Saffah becomes the Abbasid Caliph at Kufa.
750: Battle of Zab. Fall of Damascus. End of the Umayyads.
751: Conquest of Wasit by the Abbasid. Murder of the Minister Abu Salama.
754: Death of As Saffah. Accession of Mansur as the Caliph.
755: Revolt of Abdullah b Ali. Murder of Abu Muslim. Sunbadh revolt in Khurasan.
756: Abdul Rahman founds the Umayyad state in Spain.
762: Shia revolt under Muhammad (Nafs uz Zakia) and Ibrahim.
763: Foundation of Baghdad. Defeat of the Abbasids in Spain.
767: Khariji state set up by Ibn Madrar at Sijilmasa. Ustad Sees revolt in Khurasan.
772: Battle of Janbi in North Africa. Rustamid. state set up in Morocco.
775: Death or the Abbasid Caliph Mansur, Accession of Mahdi,
777: Battle of Saragossa in Spain.
785: Death of the Caliph Mahdi. Accession of Hadi.
786: Death of Hadi. Accession of Harun ur Rashid.
788: Idrisid state set up in the Maghrib. Death of Abdul Rahman of Spain, and accession of Hisham.
792: Invasion of South France.
796: Death of Hisham in Spain; accession of al Hakam.
799: Suppression of the revolt of the Khazars..



dear booktalker., I would greatly appreciate if you could tell me what event that is described above took place and what event did not happened in the Islamic history.


with best regards
yeezevee

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 3:25 pm
by booktalker
Dear Yeezeevee

I'm a complete novice, at the beginning of my studies, so really I'm not the best person to anwer you definitively - however, this thread that we're posting in, started by The Cat, should answer a lot of it (for example, the thread begins by demonstrating that the Year of the Elephant - the so-called year of Muhammad's birth - was not in the 570s, but in 552 (this from an extant inscription)).

No one knows for sure when Muhammad died. The first mentions of him as a person are on a coin (691 or 693, as far as I recall) and then from records of non-Muslims who say that they have heard of what many of them call a "false prophet" - some as early as 634, although the most interesting accounts are by St. John of Damascus - somewhere between 730 and 750. It is now certain (well, it appears to be!) that there was NO Qur'an mentioned anywhere in any records in the middle of the 7th century, and that there was no reference to a "Qur'an" in "legal discussions" before the beginning of the 9th century - why? Because it was still being compiled then. Why are there NO existing records about Muhammad between whatever the year of his birth and even decades after his death? Because he wasn't an important religious leader then. He was "borrowed" by the Arabs, given an Arabian birth and identity (and genealogy - Abraham never went anywhere near the region where Mecca is), and his history was made up to suit. Why are there no existing records or Qur'ans before the 8th century, or mention of a book called the Qur'an? Because it hadn't been made up then. Interestingly, some scholars think that the Sura "The Cow" was an old text of possibly Christian or Jewish religion origin (don't quote me on this, these are my first rough notes), and was kept almost verbatim and used as part of the Qur'an later.

Anyway, what I plan to do is to take all your dates and compare them with the latest evidence that I can find and will come up with the alternative and most realistic timeline of events.

Some things need people with more experience than me to work on this - for example, the Constitution of Medina - purportedly written by Muhammad in 622 and considered authentic by many. HOWEVER, apparently there is NO ORIGINAL document in existence, and much of the research I'm looking at bases its theories on the fact that many documents once considered to be authentic, are now proved to have been made up later but dated earlier so it looks as though they are.

So, dear Yeezeevee - don't take my word for all this, as I'm just a lowly student. This is a personal mission, a lesson in objectivity and rationality, so that I can work out for myself what's true and what's false.

To summarise, only the events and dates you have given that can be proved to be accurate by hard physical evidence are likely to be correct. Yes, the others (mainly those during the life of Muhammad and several decades afterwards) are almost certainly made up.

BT x

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 7:46 pm
by Ibn Rushd
Good on you, booktalker. :rock:

Regarding your question earlier about Aisha, I have found something in Neal Robinson's book Christ in Islam and Christianity. It concerns the stories of Mary in the Quran (suras 3 and 19) where she gives birth to Jesus, but some claim she was a hooker and had an affair. This reappears in the story of Aisha who was going to the bathroom, and got left behind, but she came back to the camp (which had moved) with a man, and rumours spread that she had an affair with him. In both cases, the women are exonerated.

That was just what I found while glancing through the book, there might be more. We could continue the discussion here, or start a new thread, one devoted specifically to Aisha.

phil01: Reocities is done by a group of Zoroastrians (I think) who moved their originally Geocities page to Reocities so that the info. could still be accesible. The Cat was not involved in it, but cites it often.

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 18, 2010 9:38 pm
by booktalker
Thanks Ibn Rushd. I aree - it seems to me that it's definitely interesting and worthwhile to look at the similarities between traditional religious stories, and yes, it might be a good idea to start a new thread. As I said, I've only just started on this voyage of discovery and decided to go right back to the beginning - and it's just amazing to realise where so many of our current myths and legends come from, and how far back they go. And how they have been altered to suit the times they're told in, and even why they originated. (I found The Epic of Gilgamesh, for example - which can be said with certainty to have been written 2000 years ago - and it's fascinating to see how it morphed over the years, and how aspects of it found its way into the Bible and the Qur'an.) That reocities site does some of the work, particularly in relation to stories about Mary / Miriam. From this perspective it's easy to understand how Islam got it wrong - the stories that were circulating at the time were often told by heretic sects, or even by people whose grasp of history wasn't that good, but were taken as the true version (or alternatively changed if the details didn't suit).

Maybe we could start with the Mary perspective, and trace it back? Look at other threads which have explored that topic and gather them together?

BT
x

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 4:26 pm
by booktalker
Guys, can one edit one's previous posts? If so, how? If not, I wanted to update what I said before, about Gilgamesh:

The Epic of Gilgamesh, for example - which can be said with certainty to have been written 2000 years ago


Should have read "...can be said with certainty to have been written 2000 years BCE (i.e. 4000 years ago)."

Cheers

BT

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 7:11 pm
by yeezevee
booktalker wrote:Dear Yeezeevee

I'm a complete novice, at the beginning of my studies, so really I'm not the best person to anwer you definitively - however, this thread that we're posting in, started by The Cat, should answer a lot of it (for example, the thread begins by demonstrating that the Year of the Elephant - the so-called year of Muhammad's birth - was not in the 570s, but in 552 (this from an extant inscription)).
well we are all novice and we are all students in this Islamic history., And we all contribute a little here and a little there to make a coherent story of early Islam. In a way this thread does make a sense, Islamic history is full of Cock-bull stories. Even if we don't have a character like Muhammad, still is it is necessary to explore Islamic history starting from his ~ birth date that Muslims considered he was born to Abdullah and Ameena of Abdul Muttalib's family. You can read the story of Muhammad parents from many Islamic sources for e.g.
Spoiler! :
MARRIAGE OF ABDULLAH TO AMINA

There was great happiness amongst Abdul Muttalib's family, not to mention his tribe, and the day-to-day life resumed once more. Shortly after this significant event, Abdul Muttalib started to make plans for Abdullah's future. Abdullah was now eighteen years of age and his father thought it was time for him to marry, so he started to search for a suitable match. After much consideration he came to the conclusion that Amina, the orphaned daughter of Wahb, would be the most compatible bride for his son. Amina was of noble birth, her father, Wahb had been the chief of the Zuhra -- a branch of the Quraish -- but upon his death, her paternal uncle, Wuhayb had become its new chieftain and taken care of her. His own daughter, Halah, was of similar age and so the two girls had grown up together like sisters. Among Amina's many qualities she was known for her honorable, endearing character and to compliment these characteristics she was very intelligent. Years later, Prophet Muhammad (SallAllaho Alaihi Wasallam) confirmed her status when he told his companions, "I have been chosen from the most choice." During Abdul Muttalib's search for a suitable bride for his beloved son, it came to his notice that Wuhayb's daughter, Halah, was also of marriageable age, so he asked his permission to marry her himself. A proposal such as this was indeed a great honor and through these kind of arrangements essential inter-tribal ties were often strengthened. Upon his return, Abdul Muttalib told Abdullah that he had found the perfect match for him. Abdullah was overjoyed when he heard all the wonderful things his father had to say about Amina and so preparations for a double wedding were made. As soon as the wedding preparations had been finalized, the bridal party set out for the house of Wahb. On the way to the celebration, people came out of their houses to greet the procession and wish them well. Abdullah had always been handsome, but that day he looked more handsome than ever. As the party passed the homes of the Bani Asad, Abdullah's cousin, Kutaylah, sister of Warakah, called to him and with the permission of his father he stopped to speak with her. Kutaylah had noticed something very special about Abdullah that day, she had seen a radiant light upon his face, the like of which she had never seen before. On impulse she asked Abdullah to marry her, offering him the same number of camels that been sacrificed in order to save him. Abdullah was astonished by the proposal but decline her offer and the bridal procession continued on its way. In those days it was the custom to stay in the house of the bride for several days after the marriage and then take her to her new home shortly afterwards. However, a few days after Abdullah and Amina's marriage, it was necessary for Abdullah to return home. On his way he met Kutaylah who told him that she was no longer interested in him because the radiant light she had seen on his face was no longer there. Amina conceived on the first night of their marriage and the young couple was very happy together. Everything his father had told him proved to be true, and Abdullah was as delighted with Amina as she was with him. Two months after their marriage Abdullah joined a trading caravan destined for Al Shams. Today, Al Shams is a conglomerate of several countries known to us as Syria, Jordan and Palestine. On the return journey, Abdullah was taken seriously ill in Yathrib. Abdullah had many relatives in Yathrib and so the caravan left him in their care and continued on to Makkah without him.

THE DEATH OF ABDULLAH

A messenger bearing news of Abdullah's illness was sent on in advance of the caravan and as soon as Abdul Muttalib heard the disturbing news he sent his eldest son, Harith, to Yathrib to bring Abdullah home. Harith was not destined to see his brother again as Abdullah died before he reached Yathrib and so he was buried near his cousins, the children of Adiyy, the son of Najjar in Yathrib. Harith returned to Makkah and conveyed the saddening news to his father and Amina whereupon great sorrow fell upon the entire family.

LADY AMINA'S PREGNANCY

Allah, the Most High, made Lady Amina's pregnancy easy for her; in fact she commented that she didn't feel any different from her usual self. However, as her pregnancy progressed Lady Amina became aware of a light shinning from within her. One night in particular, the light was so spiritually, intensely bright that she had the ability to see the castles and turrets of far away Basra in Al Shams. During her pregnancy Lady Amina had many visions concerning her unborn baby. On one such occasion she heard a voice telling her, "You are carrying in your womb the master of this nation. When he is born say, 'I place him under the protection of the One from the evil of every envier; call him Muhammad.'"

Clearly as I see from Islamic sources including Quran, there was a person like Muhammad and his actions and character before his 1st wife's death was entirely different from after her death., may be there were two different Muhammads.. Or may be whole thing is a cock and bull story. Either way we need to explore the subject from different angles.
No one knows for sure when Muhammad died. The first mentions of him as a person are on a coin (691 or 693, as far as I recall) and then from records of non-Muslims who say that they have heard of what many of them call a "false prophet" - some as early as 634,although the most interesting accounts are by St. John of Damascus - somewhere between 730 and 750. It is now certain (well, it appears to be!) that there was NO Qur'an mentioned anywhere in any records in the middle of the 7th century, and that there was no reference to a "Qur'an" in "legal discussions" before the beginning of the 9th century -why?
could you please put some links and references on that. Do you mean to say that there was NO QURAN until 9th century? That was the time many Muslims considered Hadith literature started appearing., Would you consider hadith literature and Quran appeared around the same time??
Because it was still being compiled then. Why are there NO existing records about Muhammad between whatever the year of his birth and even decades after his death? Because he wasn't an important religious leader then. He was "borrowed" by the Arabs, given an Arabian birth and identity (and genealogy - Abraham never went anywhere near the region where Mecca is), and his history was made up to suit. Why are there no existing records or Qur'ans before the 8th century, or mention of a book called the Qur'an? Because it hadn't been made up then.Interestingly, some scholars think that the Sura "The Cow" was an old text of possibly Christian or Jewish religion origin (don't quote me on this, these are my first rough notes), and was kept almost verbatim and used as part of the Qur'an later.
Where did you get that from?? or is it your own conclusion that " before 8th century there was no mention of a book called the Qur'an? "
Some things need people with more experience than me to work on this - for example, the Constitution of Medina - purportedly written by Muhammad in 622 and considered authentic by many. HOWEVER, apparently there is NO ORIGINAL document in existence, and much of the research I'm looking at bases its theories on the fact that many documents once considered to be authentic, are now proved to have been made up later but dated earlier so it looks as though they are.
well we are talking 1400 years back., what kind of original documents are you looking for? we don't have original documents for any religions....
So, dear Yeezeevee - don't take my word for all this, as I'm just a lowly student. This is a personal mission, a lesson in objectivity and rationality, so that I can work out for myself what's true and what's false.
no..no .. we are all exploring the subject and could be wrong., But what I think will be useful is exploring early Islam through the Egyptian history., when Islam came to rule that country? was there any Quran type of manual in that country? . After all Egyptian culture was very advanced by the time Muhammad came in to the picture.. As we know from Islam that 3rd Caliph Omar was the guy who apparently conquered Egypt in or around the year ...639
Spoiler! :
In 639 an army of some 4,000 men were sent against Egypt by the second caliph, Umar, under the command of Amr ibn al-As. This army was joined by another 5,000 men in 640 and defeated a Byzantine army at the battle of Heliopolis. Amr next proceeded in the direction of Alexandria, which was surrendered to him by a treaty signed on November 8, 641.

Alexandria was regained for the Byzantine Empire in 645 but was retaken by Amr in 646. In 654 an invasion fleet sent by Constans II was repulsed. From that time no serious effort was made by the Byzantines to regain possession of the country.

In return for a tribute of money and food for the troops of occupation, the Christian inhabitants of Egypt were excused military service and left free in the observance of their religion and the administration of their affairs.

Conversions of Copts to Islam were at first rare, and the old system of taxation was maintained for the greater part of the first Islamic century. The old division of the country into districts (nomoi) was maintained, and to the inhabitants of these districts demands were directly addressed by the governor of Egypt, while the head of the community—ordinarily a Copt but in some cases a Muslim Egyptian—was responsible for compliance with the demand.

The resentment of the Copts against taxation, however, led to a revolt in 725. In 727, to strengthen Arab representation, a colony of 3,000 Arabs was set up near Bilbeis. Meanwhile, the employment of the Arabic language had been steadily gaining ground, and in 706 it was made the official language of the government. Egyptian Arabic, the modern language of Egypt, began to form. Other revolts of the Copts are recorded for the years 739 and 750, the last year of Umayyad domination. The outbreaks in all cases are attributed to increased taxation.

The Abbasid period was marked by new taxations, and the Copts revolted again in the fourth year of Abbasid rule. At the beginning of the 9th century the practice of ruling Egypt through a governor was resumed under Abdallah bin Tahir, who decided to reside at Baghdad, sending a deputy to Egypt to govern for him. In 828 another Egyptian revolt broke out. And in 831 the Copts joined with native Muslims against the government.
let us see whether we get anything through Egyptian History on this subject..

booktalker wrote:Guys, can one edit one's previous posts? If so, how?


dear booktalker there is edit button on the top right hand side of your post., "you can edit your post" provided if you are logged in to the forum..

with best regards
yeezevee

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Tue Oct 19, 2010 9:30 pm
by booktalker
Hi yeezeevee. I'll do my best to answer all your questions, and take personal responsibility for any factual errors... (and welcome corrections). It’s early days, for me. Please note that I’ve relied quite a bit on the reocities site http://www.reocities.com/spenta_mainyu/Islam3.htm, which does have some contradictions and isn’t good at citing references… however I’ve checked the ones I’m interested in elsewhere and they do seem to stack up. I am pretty sure this is one of the sources used in the reocities site: http://www.christianorigins.com/islamre ... rinajacobi

Here is the link to some of the relevant writings of John of Damascus.

http://www.orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

He says at one point:

As has been related, this Mohammed wrote many ridiculous books, to each one of which he set a title. For example, there is the book On Woman…


This suggests, as other sources do, that there were several texts around at that time (John lived 676 - 749 so likely to have been early 700s?) which had not yet been incorporated into a "Qur'an".

From http://www.sullivan-county.com/x/koran_prob.htm

The Prophet Muhammad died in 632 C.E. The earliest material on his life that we possess was written by Ibn Ishaq in 750 C.E., in other words, a hundred twenty years after Muhammad’s death. The question of authenticity becomes even more critical, because the original form of Ibn Ishaq’s work is lost and is only available in parts in a later recension by Ibn Hisham who died in 834 C.E., two hundred years after the death of the Prophet.

From the reocities site again:

Joseph Schacht claims that the first considerable body of legal traditions referring to the religious texts began in the 9th century A.D. Hence it is possible to say that Kuran must have come into being later in the 9th century.


To me, the big question in all this is – WHY is there almost NO written evidence of Muhammad, the Qur’an, sunna and ahadith in these early (600s and 700s) years? Not just nothing from Muslims, but from non-Muslims as well. SURELY something considered so important and precious (his words and teachings) would have been written down and preserved. Look at ancient texts which have survived for thousands of years. There is a supposedly original Qur’an in Turkey http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/ ... pkapi.html, but that has been shown to be a later copy. NOTHING definitive exists (although the one thing that is an issue is the Constitution of Medina from 622 – I’m looking into that, and its authenticity – can anyone add their knowledge of this document?). I would guess that the Qur’an burning stories were also made up to explain the lack of original evidence.

Out of interest, why are the Sa’ana parchments hidden from public scrutiny? They are likely to be ancient fragments of the earliest texts that went into the Qur’an and possibly dating from EITHER earliest 645 OR later 710 (no one’s quite sure yet):

More than 15,000 sheets of the Yemeni Qur'ans have been flattened, cleaned, treated, sorted, and assembled. They await further examination in Yemen's House of Manuscripts. Yet that is something Islamic authorities seem unwilling to allow. Puin suggests, "They want to keep this thing low-profile, as we do, although for different reasons.


Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana'a_manuscripts

You asked

Would you consider hadith literature and Quran appeared around the same time??


It seems to me from what I’ve read so far that the basis of the Qur’an was a collection of different early texts and “books” (qv my earlier post about the suggestion that the Sura of the Cow was an earlier, separate book). The Arabs wanted a religious text that would “trump” the Torah and the Bible, so they began to compile the Qur’an – in their own language (which wasn’t the language of the prophet). Obviously, what had been written didn’t suit their needs – that is, they needed an Arab-born prophet with an Arabian genealogy and roots going back to Abraham (hence we get the Ishmael confusion – that was made up to separate the Arab nation from the Jewish one (and the rest is history…)). Thus, ahadith were born. Everyone claimed to have an ancestor who remembered something, and many of the ahadith seem to be a mixture of old Bible stories, myths and legends that probably were handed down orally. So to answer your question, my guess is yes, but the Qur’an was based on accumulated writings, whereas the ahdith were just the result of discourses. Some people say note how early ahadith have very little detail about things like the prophet’s family and relatives, but as time goes by they get more and more detailed, as though the stories were being padded out to make them look and sound more authentic.

And as I said earlier, when people started questioning the authenticity of the ahadith and writing cynical texts and poems (as early as the 8th and 9th centuries), they were made to shut up! Too much examination was a big danger to this new religion which was based on fabrication but which needed to look as though it had solid foundations and impeccable credentials. This continues today.

You asked:

is it your own conclusion that " before 8th century there was no mention of a book called the Qur'an? "


No, it’s based on the evidence I’ve seen and read.

You said:

we don't have original documents for any religions


Exactly, and, why not? BECAUSE religions and their texts were made up later. People have been recording and writing sophisticated texts for thousands of years, and they are preserved. Look at the Sumerian clay tablets, hieroglyphs, Dead Sea Scrolls. People wrote things down! Of course there were oral traditions, but important stuff was committed to permanent record.

WRT Egyptian history, I’m not sure, and haven’t looked into it – I’ll add it to the list! It’s the Sabian influences that interest me most, they seem relevant.

A few other points for consideration:

The Muslims couldn’t find any reference to Muhammad in the Torah, contrary to their teachings, so they accused Jews of altering their texts. Same thing with the Christians – wherever the errors occur in the Qur’an about the New Testament stories, we are told that the Christians got it wrong. However there is now evidence to show that the exact same stories were told by heretical sects, which Muhammad is likely to have spoken to, or heard tales about, and they were transplanted as they were understood into the Qur’an.

I agree with you that there could have been two different Muhammads pre and post Khadija, based on what The Cat has said.

This made me laugh (sorry, I didn’t make a note of the source although it’s a scholarly one, and it’s paraphrased by me) – the origin of circumcision is that Abraham got leprosy of the foreskin and as that was “unclean” he wasn’t allowed to preach. So he cut it off. His followers did the same!

Thanks for the prod about the edit button – duh – though I’m sure it wasn’t there before (maybe Allah sealed my vision).

Talk soon

BT x

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:45 am
by The Cat
Hi folks, thanks for keeping this thread within the history fold.

I'd like to share this with you. It is an inscription of Muawiya (dated 662/663) that I got from an Islamic site,...
http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Histor ... ammat.html

The Bath of Gadara (Hammet Gader) Opening Inscription.
1. In the days of the servant of God Mu‘āwiya (abdalla Maavia), the commander
2. of the faithful (amēra almoumenēn) the hot baths of the
3. people there were saved and rebuilt
4. by ‘Abd Allāh son of Abū Hāshim (Abouasemou), the
5. governor, on the fifth of the month of December,
6. on the second day (of the week), in the 6th year of the indiction,
7. in the year 726 of the colony, according to the Arabs (kata Arabas) the 42nd year,
8. for the healing of the sick, under the care of Ioannes,
9. the official of Gadara.


Many things in it are much troubling: first it opens with a cross sign (something Muhammad abhorred)!
Then, it is said to be the 1st inscription mentioning the Hijra (but no Mecca or Medina).
Still nowhere is Muhammad or the Muhammadan formula written.

Muawiya doesn't title himself 'caliph' but 'amera' (emir) indicating a provincial governor.
A world of difference... since the title of caliph would have challenge the Roman authority.

It is said to be impossible to find Muhammad's name on any inscription before around Marwan.
Karl-Heinz Ohlig and Gerd Puin upholds that it referred to Jesus-Christ as on the Dome of the Rock...

And this member too...
Jesus is God says Koran (by Apple Pie).
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=50049


Syriac Resources and texts (by Ibn Rushd)
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=110


External References to Early Islam (by The Cat)
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=5285

Bye.

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 1:38 am
by Ibn Rushd
in the year 726 of the colony, according to the Arabs (kata Arabas) the 42nd year


726-42=684. Perhaps the real counting of the Amirate/Caliphate was from this time when Mu'awiya was elected or won the suitors. The back-projection of dates occurred because they wanted to match it with an invented figment.

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:38 pm
by booktalker
Dear The Cat

In one of the links you posted (External References to Early Islam (by The Cat) viewtopic.php?f=30&t=52850) it says:

Coin, minted in Damascus in 690 by caliph adb al-Malik (682-705).
It clearly depicts Jesus as the M-H-M-D (Muhammad being the 'Praised One')....


What is the evidence for saying that the person depicted is Jesus? Is this article talking about the same coin?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld ... episode46/

BT x

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Wed Oct 20, 2010 10:10 pm
by yeezevee
booktalker wrote:Dear The Cat

In one of the links you posted (External References to Early Islam (by The Cat) viewtopic.php?f=30&t=52850) it says:

Coin, minted in Damascus in 690 by caliph adb al-Malik (682-705).
It clearly depicts Jesus as the M-H-M-D (Muhammad being the 'Praised One')....


What is the evidence for saying that the person depicted is Jesus? Is this article talking about the same coin?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld ... episode46/

BT x
that BBC link says
.....Episode 46 - Gold coin of Abd al-Malik..

.....I want to talk about two coins. The man who issued them was Abd al-Malik, Ninth Caliph, Leader of the Faithful, to rule in succession to the Prophet Muhammad. Both coins were issued in Damascus within 12 months, across the Hijra years 76 and 77 - that is, 696 - 697 AD. They're both of gold, and they're the same size. But they're utterly different. One coin shows the Caliph. The other coin has no image at all, and this change reveals how Islam was defining itself as a political system in these critical early years....
Abd al-Malik, Khalifah Allah, Deputy of God, Ninth Caliph and Ruler of the Faithful, died in 705. But the message proclaimed on his coins of a universal empire of faith still resonates strongly. Today there is no caliph - long claimed by the Turkish sultans, the office was abolished in 1924. In fact, a universally accepted caliph has always been a rare thing, but the dream of a single Islamic empire - a caliphate - remains potent in the modern Islamic world. We asked the social anthropologist Professor Madawi al-Rasheed to comment
I am not sure who wrote that but that is what they write on that Ninth Caliph Abd al-Malik...


Any ways The subject of early Islam is quite confusing and often one person telling some story which gets hyped around., so it is vital to dig bit deeper on these Islamic names and their relation with Islam . Any ways, considering that historical Islamic Muhammad died in the hands of Jewess by eating her poisoned lamb chop, let me add bit of caliph adb al-Malik story here.

The 9th Calipha Abd al-Malik, was the the son of Marwan I, Abd al-Malik was born in Medina and lived there until he was forced to leave in 683 at the beginning of the Second Civil War. In this war the rule of the reigning Umayyad family was challenged by Abdullah ibn-az-Zubayr from Mecca. Marwan I was proclaimed caliph in Damascus in 684 and secured his position in Syria and Egypt before his assassination in 685.

Abd al-Malik succeeded to the caliphate in a difficult situation. Shiite rebels occupied much of Iraq, and there were also troubles in Syria. To free his hands, Abd al-Malik made a truce with the Byzantine emperor in 689. He then attacked Iraq, but it was not until 691 that the Zubayrid army there was defeated. A year later Mecca fell after a siege to Abd al-Malik's general al-Hajjaj, and Abdullah ibn-az-Zubayr was killed. The empire remained disturbed, and three separate revolts by men of the Kharijite sect were not quelled until 697. The final pacification was largely effected by al-Hajjaj, governing Iraq and the lands to the east from Al Kufa, but his severity provoked many wellborn Arabs of Iraq to revolt under Ibn-al-Ashath from 701 to 703.


excerpts from Julius Wellhausen, "The Arab Kingdom and Its Fall" ., there is a fascinating book with the name " The History of Arabians under the government of Caliphs "from Muhammad to the fifty-sixth Caliph " by Franćois Augier de Marigny ., it is worth reading..

with best
yeezevee

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

PostPosted: Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:55 am
by The Cat
booktalker wrote:Dear The Cat

In one of the links you posted (External References to Early Islam (by The Cat) viewtopic.php?f=30&t=52850) it says:

Coin, minted in Damascus in 690 by caliph adb al-Malik (682-705).
It clearly depicts Jesus as the M-H-M-D (Muhammad being the 'Praised One')....


What is the evidence for saying that the person depicted is Jesus? Is this article talking about the same coin?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/ahistoryoftheworld ... episode46/

BT x

Hi, again...
Have a look at some coins featured right here. Muslims say it represents Abd al-Malik
viewtopic.php?p=94468#p94468

But he sure doesn't look like an Arab. It's rather a depiction of the JC we're used to, isn't it?