Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

His life, his examples and his psychology
phill01
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:01 am

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by phill01 »

The Cat wrote:We do not have much on him. But, according to the Doctrina Jacobi, the prophet was hitting Syria between 637-640,
which corresponds with Maslama. More so while 'Muhammad' was just a nickname for the prophet as we know him,
Muhammad was most probably the very first one to have it as a first name throughout Arabia!

You're welcome to search on your own about him.
Bye.
Here is a website here which has been posted before "External references to Islam": http://www.christianorigins.com/islamre ... rinajacobi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

What is amazing here is that this so called Prophet (doesnt mention his name) coming with the Saracens is proclaiming the advent of the annointed one "Christ" ???. how bizzare is that when the Koran states Jesus was the Messiah ?.

Multiple
Posts: 767
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 8:58 am

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by Multiple »

The Pagan Origins of Islam

Islam is a monotheistic BASTARDIZATION of the pre-Islamic polytheistic religion followed by the inhabitants of 7th century Arabia. Its pagan heritage is clearly evident.


1 Pagan heritage of worship at the Ka’aba
2 Pagan heritage of the Black-stone
3 Pagan past of Islamic praying and fasting
3.1 Praying
3.2 Fasting
4 Pagan heritage of Tawaf between Safa and Marwa
5 Pagan requirement of “Ihram”
6 Pagan heritage of Circumambulation
7 Pagan heritage of Islamic Crescent Moon
8 See Also
9 External Links
10 References

[edit] Pagan heritage of worship at the Ka’aba

According to the hadith, the Ka'aba in Mecca was a center of idol-worship, with the Ka'aba housing 360 idols:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Masud: The Prophet entered Mecca and (at that time) there were three hundred-and-sixty idols around the Ka’aba. He started stabbing the idols with a stick he had in his hand and reciting: "Truth (Islam) has come and Falsehood (disbelief) has vanished."
Sahih Bukhari 3:43:658

Muhammad discarded the 360 idols but retained for Islam, the Ka’aba with its Black Stone, justifying it with the claim that Abraham and Ishmael originally constructed it. However, there is no historical or archaeological evidence for the existence of the Ka’aba beyond a few hundred years before Muhammad's lifetime. In fact, Muhammad's own words disprove any connection he was attempting to make between Abraham, Ishmael and the Ka’aba.

The Qur'an says Abraham built it:
Remember We made the House a place of assembly for men and a place of safety; and take ye the station of Abraham as a place of prayer; and We covenanted with Abraham and Isma'il, that they should sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or use it as a retreat, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).
Qur'an 2:125

Muhammed says it was built 40 years prior to the Temple at Jerusalem:
Narrated Abu Dhaar: I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Which mosque was built first?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Haram." I asked, "Which (was built) next?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Aqs-a (i.e. Jerusalem)." I asked, "What was the period in between them? He replied, forty years.
Sahih Bukhari 4:55:636

The Temple at Jerusalem was built by Solomon around 958-951 BC. This implies that if Muhammad were to be believed, the Ka’aba must have been built approximately 998-991 BC. But Abraham lived around 2000 BC and both Abraham and Ishmael would have been dead by then.

If Muhammad is correct, then the Qur’an [and therefore Allah] is wrong. But if the Qur’an is correct in stating that Abraham and Ishmael built the Ka’aba, then Muhammad and the hadith is wrong.

The Ka’aba has nothing to do with Abraham or Ishmael. It has a wholly pagan heritage. Egyptian Professor and foremost authority on Arabic literature, Dr. Taha Husayn, said the following:
The case for this episode is very obvious because it is of recent date and came into vogue just before the rise of Islam. Islam exploited it for religious reasons.[1]

Also, according to sahih hadith, Muhammad even considered dismantling it:
Narrated Aswad: Ibn Az-Zubair said to me, "Aisha used to tell you secretly a number of things. What did she tell you about the Ka'ba?" I replied, "She told me that once the Prophet said, 'O 'Aisha! Had not your people been still close to the pre-Islamic period of ignorance (infidelity)! I would have dismantled the Ka'ba and would have made two doors in it; one for entrance and the other for exit." Later on Ibn Az-Zubair did the same.
Sahih Bukhari 1:3:128

Worship at the Ka’aba and the kissing of the Black Stone are just the first of many practices adopted from 7th century paganism and repackaged within monotheistic Islam.
[edit] Pagan heritage of the Black-stone

The pagan gods of pre-Islamic Arabia were worshipped in the form of rectangular stones or rocks. For example, the pagan deity 'Al-Lat', mentioned in Qur'an 53:19, and believed by pre-Islamic pagans to be one of the daughters of Allah, was once venerated as a cubic rock at Ta'if in Saudi Arabia. An edifice was built over the rock to mark it apart as a house of worship. From the Kitab Al-Asnam (Book of idols):
Al-lat stood in al-Ta'if, and was more recent than Manah. She was a cubic rock beside which a certain Jew used to prepare his barley porridge (sawiq). Her custody was in the hands of the banu-'Attab ibn-Malik of the Thayif, who had built an edifice over her. [...]She is the idol which God mentioned when He said, "Have you seen Al-lat and al-'Uzza (Surah 53:19)?[2]
"A principal sacred object in Arabian religion was the stone, either a rock outcropping or a large boulder, often a rectangular or irregular black basaltic stone… of numerous baetyls, the best known is the Black-stone of the Ka’aba at Mecca which became the central shrine object in Islam".[3]

There is no denying that the Black Stone was one among many stones and idols venerated at the Ka’aba by the pre-Islamic pagans. The Black Stone was kissed during pre-Islamic pagan worship. Though Muhammad threw out 360 other objects at the Ka’aba, he retained this Black Stone and continued the practice of kissing it. It is this same stone that the pre-Islamic pagans once kissed, that Muslims kiss today when visiting Mecca.
[edit] Pagan past of Islamic praying and fasting
[edit] Praying

Pagans prior to Islam would pray five times per day towards Mecca.[4] Muhammad retained for Islam, this pre-Islamic practice, sanctioning it with a story of a night trip to heaven on a mythical beast called al-Buraq. In heaven, the Hadith tells us that Allah demanded 50 prayers per day per Muslim. Upon advice from Moses, Muhammed bargains with Allah and successfully reduces it to five prayers per day.

Zoroastrians are also expected to recite their (kusti) prayers at least five times a day having first cleansed themselves by washing (ablution). So even today, this is not a practice unique to Islam.[5] But, contrary to the Muslims, they pray in the direction of the Sun (at each time of the day) and/or of the Holy Fire (if they are in a Fire Temple). [6]
[edit] Fasting

Muhammad's pagan tribe, the Quraish, fasted on the 10th of Muharram. Though optional, Muhammad retained this pagan practice too. Here is proof from the Hadith:
Narrated 'Aisha: 'Ashura' (i.e. the tenth of Muharram) was a day on which the tribe of Quraish used to fast in the pre-lslamic period of ignorance. The Prophet also used to fast on this day. So when he migrated to Medina, he fasted on it and ordered (the Muslims) to fast on it. When the fasting of Ramadan was enjoined, it became optional for the people to fast or not to fast on the day of Ashura.
Sahih Bukhari 5:58:172
[edit] Pagan heritage of Tawaf between Safa and Marwa

Doing Tawaf between Safa and Marwa is an Islamic ritual associated with the pilgrimage to Mecca. Safa and Marwa are two mounts, located at Mecca. This ritual entails Muslims walking frantically between the two mounts, seven times. This was originally a pagan pre-Islamic practice. Muhammad retained it for Islam, sanctioning it with yet another Qur'anic revelation.[7] Here is proof from the Hadith about the pagan past of the ceremonies at Safa and Marwah:
Narrated 'Asim: I asked Anas bin Malik: "Did you use to dislike to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa?" He said, "Yes, as it was of the ceremonies of the days of the Pre-lslamic period of ignorance, till Allah revealed: 'Verily! (The two mountains) As-Safa and Al-Marwa are among the symbols of Allah. It is therefore no sin for him who performs the pilgrimage to the Ka'ba, or performs 'Umra, to perform Tawaf between them.' " (2.158)
Sahih Bukhari 2:26:710

Clearly, the Hadith testifies that Muhammad merely adopted this pagan ceremony from the pre-Islamic "period of ignorance" and justified it with yet another convenient Qur'anic concoction.

A myth was also created about Hagar running between these two mounts in search of water until she found the Zamzam Well. Even if this story were true, why is this reason for people to run up and down between two mounts to please a god? This myth was not cooked up to further justify the ritual, but for another reason; Muhammad was trying to market Zamzam, owned by his family, as a money-making venture.
[edit] Pagan requirement of “Ihram”

'Ihram' is a state a Muslim enters into for his pilgrimage to Mecca. It involves a series of procedures like ritual washing, wearing 'Ihram garments', etc. Ihram was originally a pagan requirement for worshipping idols during pre-Islamic times. Muhammad retained this practice for Islam. Muslims assume Ihram to perform the Hajj or Umrah. Here is proof from the Hadith regarding its pagan heritage:
Narrated 'Urwa: I asked 'Aisha : ...But in fact, this divine inspiration was revealed concerning the Ansar who used to assume “Ihram” for worshipping an idol called “Manat” which they used to worship at a place called Al-Mushallal before they embraced Islam, and whoever assumed Ihram (for the idol), would consider it not right to perform Tawaf between Safa and Marwa.
Sahih Bukhari 2:26:706
[edit] Pagan heritage of Circumambulation
In the Islamic ritual of Tawaf, Muslims go around the Kaaba 7 times. In the Hindu marriage rite of Saptapadi, the married couple goes around a fire also 7 times. In both of these rituals, religious phrases are repeated during the circumambulation.

Circumambulation is to go in circles around a particular object. In Islam, worshippers and pilgrims do this around the Ka'aba at Mecca. Pre-Islamic pagans used do it to please the moon god Hubal, the 360 deities and Allah (who was merely one among the many deities worshipped there). Muhammad himself used to do it, even before the 360 idols inside the Ka'aba were removed.

Judaism and Christianity (the religions of those who are considered People of the Book) do not practice ritual circumambulation to please God. Two other faiths which do are Hinduism and Buddhism, religions older than Islam and accused by Islam of “paganism” and practicing idolatry.
[edit] Pagan heritage of Islamic Crescent Moon

Hubal was the moon god worshiped at the Ka’aba. The crescent moon was Hubal’s symbol. Muhammad's pagan grandfather Abd al-Muttalib almost slaughtered Muhammad's father Abdallah at the Ka’aba, to satisfy his god Hubal. From Ibn Hisham:
An arrow showed that it was 'Abdullah to be sacrificed. 'Abdul-Muttalib then took the boy to Al-Ka'bah with a razor to slaughter the boy. Quraish, his uncles from Makhzum tribe and his brother Abu Talib, however, tried to dissuade him. They suggested that he summon a she-diviner. She ordered that the divination arrows should be drawn with respect to 'Abdullah as well as ten camels. … the number of the camels (finally) amounted to one hundred. … They were all slaughtered to the satisfaction of Hubal.[8]

The Ka’aba, Islam's holiest shrine, has been a place where such pagan human sacrifices and slaughters have taken place for Hubal and rivers of blood have flown. When Muhammad founded Islam, he threw out Hubal. At the Battle of Badr, his enemy Abu Sufyan praised the high position of moon god Hubal, saying "O Hubal, be high". Muhammad asked his followers to yell back, "Allah is higher".[9]

Is moon-god Hubal no longer "higher"? Is Islam completely free of the 'moon' influence? Take a closer look at mosques all over the world, and you are likely to find Hubal’s symbol, the crescent moon, positioned at a high point of the mosque. As with the Cross for Christianity and the Star of David for Judaism, the Crescent moon is today a universal symbol for Islam.

It may not be a deliberate effort to worship Hubal. And yet, interestingly, through Islam, the pagan prayer of Muhammad's enemy Abu Sufyan at Badr has been answered, "O Hubal be high". With such rich pagan heritage, let not Muslims claim that theirs is a pure religion that descended directly from Allah’s heaven.
Banned.

phill01
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:01 am

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by phill01 »

Hi Multiple

Whilst I agree with you on most items you listed, one must be sceptical about the "40" years that is spoken of. I remember reading somewhere (can't remember where) that when 40 years is referred to it is quite possibly not a literal 40 years. Mohammad's alleged revelations occured when he was 40, Moses was 40 when he fled Egypt, he returned and took the Israelites into the desert for 40 years. When I read the article it said that 40 years simply meant the right time or a long time. In the Bible, David before he was king slayed 10,000 and the king slew 5000. It wasn't a literal figure, it just meant a "lot" and David kills twice as many.

yeezevee
Posts: 6547
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by yeezevee »

Multiple wrote:The Pagan Origins of Islam

Islam is a monotheistic BASTARDIZATION of the pre-Islamic polytheistic religion followed by the inhabitants of 7th century Arabia. Its pagan heritage is clearly evident.


1 Pagan heritage of worship at the Ka’aba
2 Pagan heritage of the Black-stone
3 Pagan past of Islamic praying and fasting
3.1 Praying
3.2 Fasting
4 Pagan heritage of Tawaf between Safa and Marwa
5 Pagan requirement of “Ihram”
6 Pagan heritage of Circumambulation
7 Pagan heritage of Islamic Crescent Moon ..
That is from ritualistic Muslim faith heads., How many of the above 7 rules you see in Quran dear Multiple??

Multiple
Posts: 767
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 8:58 am

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by Multiple »

yeezevee wrote:
Multiple wrote:The Pagan Origins of Islam

Islam is a monotheistic BASTARDIZATION of the pre-Islamic polytheistic religion followed by the inhabitants of 7th century Arabia. Its pagan heritage is clearly evident.


1 Pagan heritage of worship at the Ka’aba
2 Pagan heritage of the Black-stone
3 Pagan past of Islamic praying and fasting
3.1 Praying
3.2 Fasting
4 Pagan heritage of Tawaf between Safa and Marwa
5 Pagan requirement of “Ihram”
6 Pagan heritage of Circumambulation
7 Pagan heritage of Islamic Crescent Moon ..
That is from ritualistic Muslim faith heads., How many of the above 7 rules you see in Quran dear Multiple??
We are talking HERITAGE and not RULES and ALL of those PAGAN heritages are apparent in Islam today.
Banned.

phill01
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:01 am

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by phill01 »

For those that are interested, I have done some more research which adds more credence that Mohammad lived in North Western Arabia. Enjoy and feel free to comment if I have may have overlooked anything or plainly got something wrong.


THE PLEDGE OF AL-AQABA

First here is a link to give you an overview of what this topic is about: http://realmuhammad.info/Aqabah.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The pledges of Al Aqaba are significant in Islamic history and it is where the first Muslims from Medina pledged allegiance to Mohammad whilst he was still living in Mecca.
The first pledge of Al Aqaba occurred around June 621 A.D during the Hajj/Pilgrimage season. The first pledge saw 12 Medinan’s swear allegiance to Mohammad and become Muslims whilst on the Hajj at Mecca.
The second Pledge of Al Aqaba occurred a year later around June 622 A.D where a second group of Medinan’s (approx 70) met again with Mohammad when they arrived at Mecca whilst on their pilgrimage. They too pledged allegiance with Mohammad. The role of these converts was to return to Medina after the pilgrimage to propagate the religion of Islam in Medina prior to his emigration from Mecca.

What we can glean from this story is that the polytheist were also with these people on this annual pilgrimage which tells us that the inhabitants of Medina in pre Islam times practiced the same annual pagan rituals as the Meccan’s did. The story also tells us that this small group met with Mohammad at night in secret in a ravine at Al Aqaba a short distance away from the Polytheist encampment.

Modern day Islamic tradition says that this place where the pledges of Al Aqaba occurred is a few miles East of modern day Mecca called Mina and it is where Muslims today stone the Devil called Jamrat Al Aqaba.

Now historians all agree that the pagan tribes of Arabia in pre Islamic times conducted an annual pilgrimage and some conducted two pilgrimages. The Koran tells us that the Meccan’s themselves went on an annual pilgrimage to a far away place in which most agree was to the“North” of Mecca.

Excerpt from Rafat Amari’s book “Islam in the light of history” States this:

“Through a phrase attributed to Amru bin Luhy, we understand that the tribes in north western Arabia performed the Hajj to two main places. Luhy’ phrase is, “The Lord passes his winters in al Taif with Ellat, and his summers with al Uza." [li] Which reveals that many tribes in that area made the Hajj to the city of Taif, where there was a Kaaba dedicated to Ellat. Tribes went at other times during the year to other Kaabas dedicated to al Uza.”

And also states this:

“Wellhausen quotes the words of al-Kalbi, “people would go on a pilgrimage and then disperse, leaving Mecca empty.” In their thinking, another temple had pre-eminence over Kaabah, the temple at Mecca.”



If we note the phrase from Amru bin Luhy then it appears Taif is the place of the winter pilgrimage and Al Uza is far to the North. Al Uza was a Nabatean Idol along with Manat, so it is likely that this is the general destination area of the summer pilgrimage for the Arabs.

Now back to the “Pledges of Al Aqaba” which occurred during this pilgrimage season, it tells us that the Medinan’s met with Mohammad at Mecca when they arrived. This means that since Mecca is south of Medina that they traveled South, but the problem is that the Pledge of Aqaba occurred in June which is the summer months in Arabia and if Amru bin Luhy is correct then they (The Arabs) traveled North to Al Uza in the summer months as would also have the Meccans done so ??. So in effect you have the Meccan’s traveling North and the Medinan’s traveling South during the Pilgrimage season?.

The name Al Aqaba is a major town located at the top of the Gulf of Aqaba at the southern most tip of modern day Jordan and was a major port for trade coming up the Gulf of Aqaba by boat in Mohammad’s time.

It is my hypothesis is that the Pledge of Al Aqaba or sometimes called the Pledge of Aqaba is given this name because that is where it actually happened since it occurred at the time of the annual pilgrimage and not where modern day Mecca is situated today!!.

The Quraish pagans went North on the annual Pilgrimage (Hajj) which means that they didn’t consider their own Kaaba as very important at all. But Muslims are appearing to show that the Pagans of Medina on their annual pilgrimage did think the Kaaba of Mecca was the most important in the land by going there instead. Not likely in my view !!!.

In another interesting point to make is the comment made by Al-Kalbi above where he mentions that the Meccan’s would go on the Pilgrimage and leave Mecca “empty”. But the descriptions given in the account of the Pledge of Al Aqaba show that the Polytheist Meccan’s and the Medinan’s are in close proximity to each other at the same time which shows that they are on the same pilgrimage.

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The Cat
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by The Cat »

Interesting. Likewise, that Hegra (Mada'in Saleh, al-Hijr) was the former location of 'Mecca' , that is the old area of al_Qura (6.92/42.7),
would geographically makes much more sense, with the neighboring of Tabuk, Al-Haram (Al-Ula), the battles of Khaybar and of Badr, etc.

Now, the former name of Medina was Yathrib which is etymologically related with Jethro, the step-father of Moses.
This, again, would place even Medina in the Paran/Midian area! The Makana (Makan) of 22.26? It would at least
be in line with the testimonies of Diodorus Siculus & Jacob of Edessa, locating 'Mecca' near Aqaba !

Summing up... (see: Muhammad/Mecca)
viewtopic.php?p=152903#p152903" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How Makkah translated the Assyrian area of Makkan & Melukhkha (the Makna of 22.26, ie. Midian)
viewtopic.php?p=152458#p152458" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

phill01
Posts: 35
Joined: Sun Sep 05, 2010 3:01 am

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by phill01 »

Hi

Have attached a wonderfully put together Youtube video which has specidic emphasis on verses in the Koran that show North Western Arabia as the original home of Mohammad.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4RHRu3VWJg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is a map at 6:33 showing HEDJAZ as being in the North. I have seen this map before (somewhere) but can't locate it?. I'm hoping "The Cat" can possibly post a link so I can save a copy.

Hope you enjoy the video as much as I did :)

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The Cat
Posts: 2055
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by The Cat »

Hi folks, just wanted to salute the nearby 15,000th hit on this thread.
I thank everyone who made it such an interesting historical study.

For the newcomers, and for convenience, I have made a summary of all major topics herein
viewtopic.php?p=152903#p152903" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

First Summary; the hadiths; Muhammad/Mecca.
Spoiler! :
First, there's already a wide conclusion, a summing up of my first pages posts
viewtopic.php?p=94550#p94550" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Then, I shall divide this summery according to few major topics,
namely (A) the hadiths; (B) Muhammad/Mecca; (C) Miscellaneous.

A. On The Hadiths

Joseph Schacht on the Islamic Jurisprudence, a revaluation...
http://www.answering-islam.net/Books/Sc ... uation.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
My excerpt
viewtopic.php?p=98118#p98118" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Links to Quranist's sites
viewtopic.php?p=124484#p124484" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Mudarras K. Gaznavi site
http://www.reocities.com/spenta_mainyu/index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
On Islam (many pages), the messenger's region.
http://www.reocities.com/spenta_mainyu/Islam.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
On Muhammad
http://reocities.com/spenta_mainyu_2/Muhammad.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Abraha inscription, Wael Hallaq, Buk.1.3.98, tawatûr, no hadiths from Muhammad.
viewtopic.php?p=147684#p147684" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

No Early Manuscripts, the mutawatir/tawatur dilemma, the Mutazilites, videos.
viewtopic.php?p=148804#p148804" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2.282 (+ 5.106; + 65.2 = two witnesses required: thus the ahaad type is invalid). 3 versions of the last sermon.
viewtopic.php?p=150474#p150474" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Criminals of Islam, by Dr Shabbir Ahmed.
http://www.ourbeacon.com/wp-content/upl ... minals.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Alfred Guillaume: The Traditions of Islam, An Introduction to the Study of the Hadith Literature.
http://www.answering-islam.org/Books/Gu ... /index.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
3 Excerpts (+ Patricia Crone 1st extract from her 'Hagarism...')
viewtopic.php?p=151371#p151371" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Historical Facts about the Origins of Islam, by William A. Percy
http://www.williamapercy.com/wiki/index ... s_of_Islam" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Excerpt
viewtopic.php?p=151817#p151817" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mullahs and Imams as religious Pharisees (9.31)
Image

______________________________
B. Muhammad & Mecca

The Myth of Mecca by Jack Wheeler
http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/art ... 2943.shtml" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Earliest qiblas (1)
viewtopic.php?p=132807#p132807" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Jabal Al-Laws as the biblical Mt Horeb; Mt Sinaï as Hala-l' Badr (1)
viewtopic.php?p=134942#p134942" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Problem of the Sources (Ibn Warraq's Why I'm Not a Muslim)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/51323863/4/Th ... of-Sources" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
My excerpt
viewtopic.php?p=146555#p146555" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Links to sites debunking the hadiths, the historical Muhammad, coins.
viewtopic.php?p=148354#p148354" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
How Muhammad’s Sunna Trumps Allah’s Book, by Sam Shamoun
http://www.answering-islam.org/Shamoun/ ... _quran.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On Dr Rafat Amari, qiblas...
viewtopic.php?p=149130#p149130" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Some of his remarkable essays (except when relying on the Sunnite's wall of lies)
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/me ... eology.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/me ... ssical.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/me ... _bible.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mecca and coins
viewtopic.php?p=150131#p150131" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

MKK (48.24); Maqam Ibrahim; 22.26 Makana (with a map of old Midian)
viewtopic.php?p=150221#p150221" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Paran, Yaqut al-Hamawi, 33.21; 2.282
viewtopic.php?p=150805#p150805" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Muhammad in Mecca, the spice road map, Jacob of Edessa.
viewtopic.php?p=151297#p151297" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

How Makkah translated the Assyrian area of Makkan & Melukhkha (the Makna of 22.26, ie. Midian)
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19400/19400-h/v1a.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
My excerpt; John Speed's map of 1626. Old Al-Qura = Tabuk province.
viewtopic.php?p=152458#p152458" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On Becca (3.95-96) as the Maqam Ibrahim,
viewtopic.php?p=152724#p152724" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Part II. Patricia Crone, Psalm 84.7; Paran in the Bible is Mecca
viewtopic.php?p=152783#p152783" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Miscellaneous, videos, important links...
Spoiler! :
The bath of Gadara inscription, other links (Apple Pie, Ibn Rushd)
viewtopic.php?p=128467#p128467" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On 33.40 (not the father of any man, the seal of prophets...)
viewtopic.php?p=148380#p148380" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?p=148403#p148403" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?p=148425#p148425" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

My threads on the Koran
viewtopic.php?p=149470#p149470" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On al-Kalbi
viewtopic.php?p=149485#p149485" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

On 31.6 (the tafsirs and hadiths)
viewtopic.php?p=149491#p149491" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Image
Cartoon: http://www.coxandforkum.com/archives/2003_07.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


___________________
Summing up the archaeological evidences (links for every item)
viewtopic.php?p=150476#p150476" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Spoiler! :
Summing up the archaeological evidences

First conclusion made herein:
viewtopic.php?p=94550#p94550" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Evidences for a Northwest location of 'Mecca' (most probably some corruption for al-Maqam, Abraham's place).

1)--The geographical implausibility of an Abraham/Ishmael foundation to such southern location.
viewtopic.php?p=135038#p135038" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2)--The Abraha inscription...
viewtopic.php?p=135047#p135047" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3)--The direction of the earliest qiblas & the testimony of Jacob of Odessa, corroborated by Baladhuri's Futuh.
http://www.debate.org.uk/topics/coolcalm/qibla.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Image

4)--The silence of the Yeminite/Nabataean inscriptions over such an 'important' trading and pilgrimage center.
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/me ... eology.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

5)--The silence of near contemporary Greek historians and geographers.
http://religionresearchinstitute.org/me ... ssical.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

6)--The calligraphic evidences...
viewtopic.php?p=135050#p135050" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

7)--The Umayyad numismatic evidences, it's absence on the Dome of the Rock
viewtopic.php?p=94306#p94306" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?p=94468#p94468" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?p=150131#p150131" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

8)--Yehuda D. Nevo's researches in the Negev.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yehuda_D._Nevo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://debate.org.uk/topics/history/bib-qur/qurarch.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Finally,
9)--The probability that the Koranic al-Masjid al-Haram means an Arabic Mt Sinai: Hala-'l Badr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hala-%27l_Badr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Image
viewtopic.php?p=135751#p135751" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?p=136044#p136044" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?p=136632#p136632" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.biblemysteries.com/lectures/mosesinyemen.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Medieval Arab geographer Yaqut al-Hamawi (d. 1229).
Faaraan (Paran): An Arabicized Hebrew word. It is one of the names for Mekkah mentioned in the Torah.
It has been said that it is a name for the mountains of Mekkah.
In Hebrew Paran means 'the place of caverns'. Paran and Midian became embroidered.
http://www.guidedbiblestudies.com/topics/mount_seir.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In both the first and second civil wars, notes accounts of people proceeding from Medina to Iraq via Mecca.
Yet Mecca is southwest of Medina, and Iraq is northeast. Thus the sanctuary for Islam, according to these
traditions was at one time north of Medina, which is the opposite direction from where Mecca is today!

(Josef van Ess 1971, Anfange muslimischer Theologie, p.16; Muhammad b. Ahmad al-Dhahabi 1369, p.343).


Some other important links
MECCA -Myth vs Reality: In Search of Mt Sinai!
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8527" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Hadiths' Perfidy
viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8185" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The Deception of the Koranic 'proper names'
viewtopic.php?f=21&t=5978" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Resuming links of the thread
viewtopic.php?p=110064#p110064" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
I also wish to say that I've started, in Resource Center, a huge thread called:
The Koranic Deceptive 'Proper Names' viewtopic.php?f=30&t=10230" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Which will be very informative, yet time consuming. So far I've explored the word 'Allah' and 'Koran' (Quran; Qur'an).
Much more topics to come later, as time allows... All showing the exponential ways Muslims are committing 'Shirk'!
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

Badranaya
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:19 am

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by Badranaya »

Dear The Cat,

I think it would be an obligation for me that I need to gladly inform you that your articles especially in page 1 & 2 of this thread have been translated into my language, Indonesian, and it has been welcomed by so many.

you can see the cover here :
https://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pho ... =1&theater" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

if you are interested to see how your writings have become an e-book, it can be downloaded here :
http://www.4shared.com/doc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;​ument/DFLN7Txu/Muhammad_Mi​tos_atau_Fakta_Seja.html


I'm glad if we can be friends in Facebook,so that we might have a more vivid correspondence.

Regards,
Badra

User avatar
The Cat
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by The Cat »

Great ! And many thanks Badranaya... :victory:

History, as I've shown, is much more problematic to Muhammad himself than with Koran as revelations. And I shall add that, in the Koran,
Muhammad is portrayed as a deviant (93.7) only exemplary in his faith (33.21). He's not even depicted as an IMAM like Abraham (2.124),
Isaac and Jacob (21.73) or Moses (46.12). All said to be IMAMAAN, never Muhammad! He's not a warder but a simple warner (88.21-22).

The very compilation of the Koran is an act going contrary to his own example, for we wouldn't have a Koran likewise. Bukhari 6.61.509:
Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project."


More so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Umar" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
It is said that Umar promised to strike the head of any man who would say that Muhammad died. At this point Abu Bakr is reported
to have come out to the Muslim community and gave his famous speech which included: "Whoever worshiped Muhammad, let them
know that Muhammad is dead, and whoever worshiped God, let them know that God is alive and never dies.
"

Abū Bakr then recited these verses from the Qur'an: "Muhammad is but a messenger; messengers (the like of whom) have passed
away before him. If, then, he dies or is killed, will you turn back on your heel?" (3.144). Hearing this from Abu Bakr, the most senior
disciple of Muhammad, Umar then fell down on his knees in great sense of sorrow and acceptance of the reality.
Really Muhammad isn't an example to follow. As also written in 33.40:
viewtopic.php?p=148380#p148380" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?p=148403#p148403" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?p=148425#p148425" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

As for your invitation to Facebook, thanks but I'm not yet an adherent. You're welcome to reach me herein via Private Message.
Bye...
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

User avatar
skynightblaze
Posts: 3920
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 10:51 am

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by skynightblaze »

Badranaya wrote:Dear The Cat,

I think it would be an obligation for me that I need to gladly inform you that your articles especially in page 1 & 2 of this thread have been translated into my language, Indonesian, and it has been welcomed by so many.

you can see the cover here :
https://www.facebook.com/home.php#!/pho ... =1&theater" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

if you are interested to see how your writings have become an e-book, it can be downloaded here :
http://www.4shared.com/doc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;​ument/DFLN7Txu/Muhammad_Mi​tos_atau_Fakta_Seja.html


I'm glad if we can be friends in Facebook,so that we might have a more vivid correspondence.

Regards,
Badra
Hello Badranaya,
You seem to be mislead by this person. CAT is not at all against quran. Those copy pastes on first 2 pages have not been posted with the aim of debunking quran. The aim was to promote debunk ahadith and promote how quran alone is the correct faith.

Your source is CAT and therefore you may want to take a look at the credibility of your source . Please see the link below and go through the entire debate. It starts from page 9 and extends to around page 19. Now you are free to decide what you want to and you are also free to disagree with me. In short you are the judge but before you make any judgments you are requested to go through the link below... I think I should warn people before they fall into this trap of quran alone ploy so that they can see through this deception and make a judgement for themselves.

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=9828&start=160" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

yeezevee
Posts: 6547
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by yeezevee »

The Cat wrote:Great ! And many thanks Badranaya... :victory:

History, as I've shown, is much more problematic to Muhammad himself than with Koran as revelations. And I shall add that, in the Koran, Muhammad is portrayed as a deviant (93.7) only exemplary in his faith (33.21). He's not even depicted as an IMAM like Abraham (2.124), Isaac and Jacob (21.73) or Moses (46.12). All said to be IMAMAAN, never Muhammad! He's not a warder but a simple warner (88.21-22).
Good stuff.. good stuff from The Cat., But one should NOT take Quran on its face value without reading the verses carefully. Not only that, to make any sense of a verse in Quran one must read at least 4 to 5 verses above and below the verse one is intended to understand. Superficial reading of a single verse from Quran and superficial analysis/assumption of a single verse from Quran leads to misleading conclusions. So keeping that in mind, let us read those verses..
The Cat says: In the Koran, Muhammad is portrayed as a deviant (93.7)
And Quran says
093.007
YUSUFALI: And He found thee wandering, and He gave thee guidance.
PICKTHAL: Did He not find thee wandering and direct (thee)?
SHAKIR: And find you lost (that is, unrecognized by men) and guide (them to you)?

This 93.007 verse is NOT telling the reader that Muhammad was deviant., It is Makkan verse and what it is telling is that Muhammad was wandering around caves or desert.
The Cat says "Quran (33.21). depicts Muhammad only exemplary in his faith":
And Quran Says:
033.021
YUSUFALI: Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
PICKTHAL: Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.
SHAKIR: Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.
It is absolute NONSENSE to say that verse (33.21) is depicts Muhammad only exemplary in his faith., This verse comes out of Madina and it is a warmongering verse to enrage his followers to loot & kill those who were oppsoing Mr. Muhammad that includes Jewish/Pagan and Christian folks of that time.. Let us read verses above and below that
Spoiler! :
033.015
YUSUFALI: And yet they had already covenanted with Allah not to turn their backs, and a covenant with Allah must (surely) be answered for.
PICKTHAL: And verily they had already sworn unto Allah that they would not turn their backs (to the foe). An oath to Allah must be answered for.
SHAKIR: And certainly they had made a covenant with Allah before, that) they would not turn (their) backs; and Allah's covenant shall be inquired of.

033.016
YUSUFALI: Say: "Running away will not profit you if ye are running away from death or slaughter; and even if (ye do escape), no more than a brief (respite) will ye be allowed to enjoy!"
PICKTHAL: Say: Flight will not avail you if ye flee from death or killing, and then ye dwell in comfort but a little while.
SHAKIR: Say: Flight shall not do you any good if you fly from death or slaughter, and in that case you will not be allowed to enjoy yourselves but a little.

033.017
YUSUFALI: Say: "Who is it that can screen you from Allah if it be His wish to give you punishment or to give you Mercy?" Nor will they find for themselves, besides Allah, any protector or helper.
PICKTHAL: Say: Who is he who can preserve you from Allah if He intendeth harm for you, or intendeth mercy for you. They will not find that they have any friend or helper other than Allah.
SHAKIR: Say: Who is it that can withhold you from Allah if He intends to do you evil, rather He intends to show you mercy? And they will not find for themselves besides Allah any guardian or a helper.

033.018
YUSUFALI: Verily Allah knows those among you who keep back (men) and those who say to their brethren, "Come along to us", but come not to the fight except for just a little while.
PICKTHAL: Allah already knoweth those of you who hinder, and those who say unto their brethren: "Come ye hither unto us!" and they come not to the stress of battle save a little,
SHAKIR: Allah knows indeed those among you who hinder others and those who say to their brethren: Come to us; and they come not to the fight but a little,

033.019
YUSUFALI: Covetous over you. Then when fear comes, thou wilt see them looking to thee, their eyes revolving, like (those of) one over whom hovers death: but when the fear is past, they will smite you with sharp tongues, covetous of goods. Such men have no faith, and so Allah has made their deeds of none effect: and that is easy for Allah.
PICKTHAL: Being sparing of their help to you (believers). But when the fear cometh, then thou (Muhammad) seest them regarding thee with rolling eyes like one who fainteth unto death. Then, when the fear departeth, they scald you with sharp tongues in their greed for wealth (from the spoil). Such have not believed. Therefor Allah maketh their deeds fruitless. And that is easy for Allah.
SHAKIR: Being niggardly with respect to you; but when fear comes, you will see them looking to you, their eyes rolling like one swooning because of death; but when the fear is gone they smite you with sharp tongues, being niggardly of the good things. These have not believed, therefore Allah has made their doing naught; and this is easy to Allah.

033.020
YUSUFALI: They think that the Confederates have not withdrawn; and if the Confederates should come (again), they would wish they were in the deserts (wandering) among the Bedouins, and seeking news about you (from a safe distance); and if they were in your midst, they would fight but little.
PICKTHAL: They hold that the clans have not retired (for good); and if the clans should advance (again), they would fain be in the desert with the wandering Arabs, asking for the news of you; and if they were among you, they would not give battle, save a little.
SHAKIR: They think the allies are not gone, and if the allies should come (again) they would fain be in the deserts with the desert Arabs asking for news about you, and if they were among you they would not fight save a little.

033.021
YUSUFALI: Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah.
PICKTHAL: Verily in the messenger of Allah ye have a good example for him who looketh unto Allah and the Last Day, and remembereth Allah much.
SHAKIR: Certainly you have in the Messenger of Allah an excellent exemplar for him who hopes in Allah and the latter day and remembers Allah much.

033.022
YUSUFALI: When the Believers saw the Confederate forces, they said: "This is what Allah and his Messenger had promised us, and Allah and His Messenger told us what was true." And it only added to their faith and their zeal in obedience.
PICKTHAL: And when the true believers saw the clans, they said: This is that which Allah and His messenger promised us. Allah and His messenger are true. It did but confirm them in their faith and resignation.
SHAKIR: And when the believers saw the allies, they said: This is what Allah and His Messenger promised us, and Allah and His Messenger spoke the truth; and it only increased them in faith and submission.

033.023
YUSUFALI: Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah: of them some have completed their vow (to the extreme), and some (still) wait: but they have never changed (their determination) in the least:
PICKTHAL: Of the believers are men who are true to that which they covenanted with Allah. Some of them have paid their vow by death (in battle), and some of them still are waiting; and they have not altered in the least;
SHAKIR: Of the believers are men who are true to the covenant which they made with Allah: so of them is he who accomplished his vow, and of them is he who yet waits, and they have not changed in the least

033.024
YUSUFALI: That Allah may reward the men of Truth for their Truth, and punish the Hypocrites if that be His Will, or turn to them in Mercy: for Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
PICKTHAL: That Allah may reward the true men for their truth, and punish the hypocrites if He will, or relent toward them (if He will). Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
SHAKIR: That Allah may reward the truthful for their truth, and punish the hypocrites if He please or turn to them (mercifully); surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

033.025
YUSUFALI: And Allah turned back the Unbelievers for (all) their fury: no advantage did they gain; and enough is Allah for the believers in their fight. And Allah is full of Strength, able to enforce His Will.
PICKTHAL: And Allah repulsed the disbelievers in their wrath; they gained no good. Allah averted their attack from the believers. Allah is ever Strong, Mighty.
SHAKIR: And Allah turned back the unbelievers in their rage; they did not obtain any advantage, and Allah sufficed the believers in fighting; and Allah is Strong, Mighty.

033.026
YUSUFALI: And those of the People of the Book who aided them - Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts. (So that) some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners.
PICKTHAL: And He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some.
SHAKIR: And He drove down those of the followers of the Book who backed them from their fortresses and He cast awe into their hearts; some you killed and you took captive another part.
So dear The Cat., I agree to disagree with your understanding of Quran and events that occurred during that time of alleged revelations/uttering of Muhammad.
The very compilation of the Koran is an act going contrary to his own example, for we wouldn't have a Koran likewise. Bukhari 6.61.509:Then I said to Abu Bakr, "How will you do something which Allah's Apostle did not do?" Abu Bakr replied, "By Allah, it is a good project."
Huh! that is silly.,

You don't believe in Bukhari but you take Bukhari 6.61.509 to support your analysis of Quran. At times you seem to confuse the readers and confuse yourself The Cat ., Any ways.. It is good to read good stuff.. The Quran..

Badranaya
Posts: 8
Joined: Thu Jul 07, 2011 10:19 am

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by Badranaya »

Helo Skynightblaze,

you wrote:
You seem to be mislead by this person (The Cat)
.


No. Not at all. I'm all aware to what I have read and translated. Though I know little, but I'm not illiterate in higher criticism / historical criticism on religions.
Well, I have no idea of what have been the disputes between you and The Cat, but I hope that both of you can share with some more information of historical criticism for Islam, especially e-books. I have been searching for free e-books of books by Luling, John Wansbrough (Sectarian Milieu) , Ibn Warraq (especially The Quest of The Historical Muhammad) & Puin (The Hidden Origins of Islam).

Regards

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Ibn Rushd
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by Ibn Rushd »

I don't think there are free e-books recently of those authors, since they have either published recently or been reprinted, so the copyright is renewed for another 75 years. They are cheap though, but I guess you're in Indonesia? That might be a problem. Wansbrough's Quranic Studies is a much better book than the second one, easier to understand in my view.

As for the page 1 & 2 of this thread, they agree with current scholarship regarding archaeology and historiography.
There is no Master but the Master, and QT-1 is his Prophet.

Asimov's robot story "Reason"

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skynightblaze
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by skynightblaze »

Badranaya wrote:Helo Skynightblaze,

you wrote:
You seem to be mislead by this person (The Cat)
.


No. Not at all. I'm all aware to what I have read and translated. Though I know little, but I'm not illiterate in higher criticism / historical criticism on religions.
Well, I have no idea of what have been the disputes between you and The Cat, but I hope that both of you can share with some more information of historical criticism for Islam, especially e-books. I have been searching for free e-books of books by Luling, John Wansbrough (Sectarian Milieu) , Ibn Warraq (especially The Quest of The Historical Muhammad) & Puin (The Hidden Origins of Islam).

Regards
I am not good at history but I can show you how flawed that con man CAT is. Pick up any translation of 48:24 and it includes the word "MECCA" in it. CAT copied from his quran alone teachers and deceptively translated 48:24 to not include MECCA in it. Now let me tell you that I ain't a arabic literate but I asked many native arabic speakers who told me that 48:24 does include the word MEcca in it. What they told me is that its not necessary that every word that is formed from the root has the same meaning as that of the root. So if you have translated 48:24 not to include MECCA based on what CAT and his masters ,the free minders said then you have been duped! Check the translations at the following site of 48:24..

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/48/. ... efault.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

We have 40 well know arabic speakers and writers including the word mecca in the verse 48:24 but only con men like CAT and his teachers -the free minders exclude that word. The reason for doing that is because if existence of Mecca is doubtful then it creates a problem for quran too . Quran also becomes unreliable and therefore the deception attempted is to claim that Mecca is not mentioned in the quran at all!

More ever read my response to Abraha's scripture argument used by con teachers CAT and his free minders CREW..

viewtopic.php?p=152734#p152734" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

If you really wish to learn history and use history to debunk quran and hadith I think Ibn Rushd is the best person available here . I trust her but definitely not CAT who has totally different aims than what we have.

Well my position is that you cant have a quran alone case. Both , the quran and hadith need to be dismissed or both need to be taken at face value. Obviously I prefer both of them being unreliable.

I hope you didn't translate his copy pastes to support quran alone position. I am assuming that you used these arguments to debunk both quran and ahadith which would be a good idea.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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The Cat
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by The Cat »

skynightblaze wrote:If you really wish to learn history and use history to debunk quran and hadith I think Ibn Rushd is the best person
available here . I trust her but definitely not CAT who has totally different aims than what we have.
So you trust Ibn Rushd and not me...
Ibn Rushd wrote:As for the page 1 & 2 of this thread, they agree with current scholarship regarding archaeology and historiography.
:roflmao:

_________________
yeezevee wrote:1) This 93.007 verse is NOT telling the reader that Muhammad was deviant.,
It is Makkan verse and what it is telling is that Muhammad was wandering around caves or desert.

2) It is absolute NONSENSE to say that verse (33.21) is depicts Muhammad only exemplary in his faith.,
This verse comes out of Madina and it is a warmongering verse to enrage his followers to loot & kill
those who were oppsoing Mr. Muhammad that includes Jewish/Pagan and Christian folks of that time.

3) You don't believe in Bukhari but you take Bukhari 6.61.509 to support your analysis of Quran.
1) 93.7: Wa Wajadaka Đāllāan Fahadá

Learn how 'dalla'an' has been tampered by all translators.
You can't trust them! It means deviant, filthy, pervert!

Same in another window: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFTc46b6h-c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

2) What's the title of sura 33?... The Clans... What does it refer to? The battle of the Trench and Muhammad's wifes.
http://reading-the-quran.blogspot.com/2 ... clans.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In which sura Muhammad is still depicted as a deviant (33.50, ''this is only for thee'', 33.53). How can he be exemplary?
How can 33.21 ever be interpreted to mean: follow the siras, the tafsirs, the fiqh and the hadiths? :reading: :wacko:
http://www.godsmosque.org/html/quran/sura33.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Footnotes (on 33.21 and others)
http://www.godsmosque.org/html/quran/sura33fn.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

3) I don't believe in imam Bukhari, in hadiths having unkoranic law-binding character. But when they strictly
refers to history, we should evaluate them at their own historical value. I've said this time and again...

The quote I've provided underlines that Muhammad wasn't even followed by the first caliphs! So the quote from Abu Bakr.
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

User avatar
skynightblaze
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by skynightblaze »

The Cat wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:If you really wish to learn history and use history to debunk quran and hadith I think Ibn Rushd is the best person
available here . I trust her but definitely not CAT who has totally different aims than what we have.
So you trust Ibn Rushd and not me...
Ibn Rushd wrote:As for the page 1 & 2 of this thread, they agree with current scholarship regarding archaeology and historiography.
:roflmao:
Ask her whether she supports quran alone stand. Ask her whether your posts create problem for quran or not. You are the only idiot who believes who is making valid points here. Even book talker and phil took your post to mean that quran was written in 8th century :lol: and you have been thinking all the way that people here are appreciating your posts and believing in you that quran alone is the correct faith and only ahadith are valid.

I know you are a whore who has been hired by pimps - the free minders.

Btw even Badranaya thinks that your posts are debunking Quran and hadith and not just hadith. :lol: You dont even understand what your posts imply. AS far as scholarship is concerned , copy pasting stuff from other sites doesn't make you a scholar at all.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

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Ibn Rushd
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by Ibn Rushd »

Qur'an alone is not tenable. Qur'an is a book of prayers only, and doesn't give any history. You need hadith and sira for that.

I thought you didn't like me though?
There is no Master but the Master, and QT-1 is his Prophet.

Asimov's robot story "Reason"

yeezevee
Posts: 6547
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by yeezevee »

Ibn Rushd wrote:Qur'an alone is not tenable. Qur'an is a book of prayers only, and doesn't give any history. You need hadith and sira for that.

I thought you didn't like me though?
Huh!.. Ibn...Ibn Rushd.. you crushed me.. What kind of prayer book is that?? Pray what Ibn??

That is No prayer book., It is a book of cursing.,
it is a not a book that you could use to pray some unknown entity. It is a book of PREY., It preys on pagans, infidels, juice, Christians and any one who questions Islam/Quran/Muhammad dear Ibn.,

What all you can say is., if you read that book in Arabic it has rhyming words that gives rhythm to the sound. nothing more and nothing less.

with best wishes
yeezevee

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