Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

His life, his examples and his psychology
booktalker
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by booktalker »

Are you having a bad day, bin Lyin, or are you always this grumpy? (Obviously if I missed any useful contribution to the discusssion in your post, I do apologise). Love and hugs BT xxx

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The Cat
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by The Cat »

skynightblaze wrote:I would be wasting my time if I reply to your below average arguments so keep dancing around and shouting how you have defeated me.
You even resemble the Sunnites when defeated (you're dismissed on grounds only known to Allah)...

And I don't have to shout how you were defeated, you did that yourself copiously...
skynightblaze wrote:Never ever fall for the historical crap. I made a mistake of getting into historical things.
Its a TRAP to set you up.If you fall for it you lose the case.
And even way before, in this very thread...
skynightblaze wrote:''There must be proof . Its only that I aint finding it.''
You haven't, and you won't. :bye:

_________________
About the request for a summary... this will be done, as soon as I can, in Resource Center:

The Hadiths' Perfidy (1st part is already at the end)
See: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8185" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Other parts, like what I'll bring soon on 'Becca' (3.96), will rather appear in:

MECCA -Myth vs Reality: In Search of Mt Sinai!
See: viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8527" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now whatever is related to the Koran in the light of history belongs to another MAIN.
I challenge snb to open it. But he can't deal with something crucial: PROOFS....
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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skynightblaze
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by skynightblaze »

yeezevee wrote:What happened "The Cat"?? Please continue on this subject, it is quite important., Forget about hadith., we all know it is filled with stupid stuff. Focusing on Quran & Muhammad or Myth of Muhammad + Origins of Quran is far more important than spending time on Hadith..

I wish you could write some sort of conclusions from these 15 or posts you have in this thread..

with best regards
yeezevee
Are you mad?? IF we writes conclusions here then he will end up contradicting himself massively!

For e.g

1) A -Z ahadith are corrupted by Abassid but the other day he was saying that Abu Huraira who died 70 years before Abassids came into power corrupted the ahadith :lol:

2) Muhammad was a myth but yet quran isnt when it talks about Muhammad being the final messenger :lol:

Well the list is endless. I have saved some trouble for him by putting in conclusions here.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.

yeezevee
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by yeezevee »

Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:
yeezevee wrote: I wish you could write some sort of conclusions from these 15 or posts you have in this thread..
:lol:
skynightblaze wrote:
yeezevee wrote:What happened "The Cat"?? Please continue on this subject, it is quite important., Forget about hadith., we all know it is filled with stupid stuff. Focusing on Quran & Muhammad or Myth of Muhammad + Origins of Quran is far more important than spending time on Hadith..

I wish you could write some sort of conclusions from these 15 or posts you have in this thread..

with best regards
yeezevee
Are you mad?? .........
Trouble makers...

No..No..no., I was & am sincerely hoping that The Cat reads his own posts on this thread and write some sort of conclusion on the story of "Muhammad -Myth vs Reality". It is all there but it gets bit confused. So I thought it will help the reader if he could filter most of them and write one post with concrete statements out of his posts.

How are you doing booktalker?? I wonder whether you could do that if Cat is busy..
[

with best wishes
yeezevee

booktalker
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by booktalker »

Hi yeezevee - I've been thinking about it and have been trying to work out a system wherby people can work on it collectively. Will give it more brain energy. BT x

yeezevee
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by yeezevee »

booktalker wrote:Hi yeezevee - I've been thinking about it and have been trying to work out a system wherby people can work on it collectively. Will give it more brain energy. BT x
booktalker .. good to hear you.. STOP THINKING START WORKING lol.,

please start a thread on that and i would suggest to friends to leave "THE CAT" alone to explore the subject in his way.,


As far as system and how to go at it is concerned., You start a thread .. choose proper heading ..and let us see how friends are going to explore or add/contradict what is there in the early of History of Islam starting from the birth of Muhammad to to the death of those four Caliphs.. "Two alleged father in-laws and two alleged son in-laws of Muhammad' " The Character that we have in Islam"

with best
yeezevee

booktalker
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by booktalker »

OK - I'll let you know here when... may not be immediate! And, Mr yeezevee, I'll be counting on you for your usual lively input. BT x

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Muhammad bin Lyin
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

booktalker wrote:Are you having a bad day, bin Lyin, or are you always this grumpy? (Obviously if I missed any useful contribution to the discusssion in your post, I do apologise). Love and hugs BT xxx
Thanks for the disingenuous comment. I suppose you fancy it as clever as yourself as well. Whatever.
orange jews for breakfast and 20 oz he brews at night

yeezevee
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by yeezevee »

booktalker wrote:OK - I'll let you know here when... may not be immediate! And, Mr yeezevee, I'll be counting on you for your usual lively input. BT x
i wonder whether you and "The Cat" members of that free-minds.org forum and I wonder what threads are useful in that forum? http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?board=28.0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Anyways ., One thing I can assure you guys, you can move history around , you can move time scales and origin of Islam around and you can Muhammad and his life around around... and..and...you can completely delete hadith all together., but by doing that and IF YOU GUYS SHIELD QURAN FROM CRITICISM., Then you must expect rebuttals from ffi folk..

That is exactly what SKB or that lying Muhammad is doing in this thread. You may not agree with them but they have the right to take Hadith as the manual that life of Muslims and Islam is based upon since the beginning of Islam and..and INSULT ISLAM & MUSLIMS

with best wishes
yeezevee
Last edited by yeezevee on Thu May 12, 2011 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Ansar al-Zindiqi
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by Ansar al-Zindiqi »

yeezevee wrote: but they have the right to take Hadith as the manual that life of Muslims and Islam is based upon since the beginning of Islam and..and INSULT ISLAM & MUSLIMS

with best wishes
yeezevee
Image
Don't be a believer but a heretic unto yourself.

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Ibn Rushd
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by Ibn Rushd »

I think this thread has degenerated beyond the initial scholarly inputs that were on the first 7 pages. Now it's a slinging match.
There is no Master but the Master, and QT-1 is his Prophet.

Asimov's robot story "Reason"

yeezevee
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by yeezevee »

Ibn Rushd wrote:I think this thread has degenerated beyond the initial scholarly inputs that were on the first 7 pages. Now it's a slinging match.
Don't worry "Ibn Rushd"., every thing is there., we can always filter it out.,
I am sorry to say this but if this thread degenerated in to a sling match means "THE FAULT LIES WITH "THE CAT" lol., sorry to say that but it is a fact. You see One has to realize here., That to make noise you need two hands ....and ..... the another hand here comes from "The Cat" lol..

Any way we have NOT LOST anything., the relevant Cat's posts are no more than 10 on the subject., we can put all of them in to one folder. I am sure Mods can easily do that..

with best wishes
yeezevee

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The Cat
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by The Cat »

Ibn Rushd wrote:I think this thread has degenerated beyond the initial scholarly inputs that were on the first 7 pages. Now it's a slinging match.
Well there are more scholarly inputs but dispersed. As I've said, I'll reunite them in a summery.

The one thing I like is to learn and snb upheld mainly the Sunnite kind of trashing. But I've learned anyway...
One year ago I was totally ignorant about much anything concerning the hadiths. And now I've debunked them
all from many sides, both internally (mutawatir vs ahaad, 2.282, etc) and externally (their history). Not bad !

Right now I'll bring something on Makkah which I'm sure you'll appreciate...Please read the following very slowly.

How Makkah translated the Assyrian area of Makkan & Melukhkha (the Makna of 22.26, ie. Midian)
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/19400/19400-h/v1a.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Magan is usually associated with the country of Melukhkha, "the salt" desert, and in every text in which its geographical position is indicated it is placed in the immediate vicinity of Egypt. Thus Assur-bani-pal, after stating that he had "gone to the lands of Magan and Melukhkha," goes on to say that he "directed his road to Egypt and Kush," and then describes the first of his Egyptian campaigns. Similar testimony is borne by Esar-haddon. The latter king tells us that after quitting Egypt he directed his road to the land of Melukhkha, a desert region in which there were no rivers, and which extended "to the city of Rapikh" (the modern Raphia) "at the edge of the wadi of Egypt" (the present Wadi El-Arîsh). After this he received camels from the king of the Arabs, and made his way to the land and city of Magan.

The Tel el-Amarna tablets enable us to carry the record back to the fifteenth century b.c. In certain of the tablets now as Berlin (Winckler and Abel, 42 and 45) the Phoenician governor of the Pharaoh asks that help should be sent him from Melukhkha and Egypt: "The king should hear the words of his servant, and send ten men of the country of Melukhkha and twenty men of the country of Egypt to defend the city [of Gebal, ie. Byblos] for the king." And again, "I have sent [to] Pharaoh" (literally, "the great house") "for a garrison of men from the country of Melukhkha, and... the king has just despatched a garrison [from] the country of Melukhkha."

At a still earlier date we have indications that Melukhkha and Magan denoted the same region of the world. In an old Babylonian geographical list which belongs to the early days of Chaldsean history, Magan is described as "the country of bronze," and Melukhkha as "the country of the samdu," or "malachite" (ie. the biblical Amalekites). It was this list which originally led Oppert, Lenormant, and myself independently to the conviction that Magan was to be looked for in the Sinaitic Peninsula. Magan included, however, the Midian of Scripture, and the city of Magan, called Makkan in Semitic Assyrian, is probably the Makna of classical geography....
So we're back to 22.26 as Makna being 'where Abraham stood':
22.26: And (remember) when We prepared for Abraham the place(***) of the House,
saying: Ascribe thou no thing as partner unto Me, and purify My House for those who make
the round (thereof) and those who stand and those who bow and make prostration.


(***) The text reads: Ibrāhīma Makāna Al-Bayti. Makna is thus the place where Abraham 'stoop up to pray', the old Assyrian Makkan!
Yet the translators made sure to hide such a name by translating it as if Maqamu (place) Ibrahim was written instead !!!

It's probably from these old Assyrian accounts that we got the Hindu wording: Mlecca (or Mlechchha) !
Meaning: uncivilized, non-Vedic people, meat eaters. Then... all Western regions, their inhabitants.
The relation with India would be that of Indian seafarers settling in the area, way back in antiquity.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mleccha" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This is most obviously the archaic root for Mecca, ie. Makna and, by extension, the whole Midianite/Paran area !!!
Then we understand better why Diodorus Siculus talked about a holy temple venerated by all Arabs, near Eilat (Ayla).

Looks like, at some point, there was a confusion between Ayla/Eilat and Ilya/Aelya (Jerusalem), as in Bukhari 1.6...

Here's an ancient map, draw by John Speed in 1626, strangely depicting Mecca as the northern part of the Red Sea and the Aqaba Gulf!
Image

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view. ... arch=horeb" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
By comparing Num. xxxiii. 8-10 with Deut. i. 1 it is to be concluded that Sinai was between the Gulf of 'Aḳabah and Paran.
According to this theory, Sinai-Horeb was either a part of Mount Seir or it was not far west of it, and Deut. xxxiii. 2, as well as
Judges v. 4-5, favors the former supposition.
Dt.1.1-2: These be the words which Moses spake unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness,
in the plain over against the Red sea, between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab.
(There are eleven days' journey from Horeb by the way of mount Seir unto Kadeshbarnea.)

Dt.33.2: And he said, The LORD came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran...

Num.33.9-10: And they removed from Marah, and came unto Elim: and in Elim were twelve fountains of water, and threescore
and ten palm trees; and they pitched there. And they removed from Elim, and encamped by the Red sea. (Note: Elim = Aila/Eilat)

Judges 5.4-5: LORD, when thou wentest out of Seir, when thou marchedst out of the field of Edom, the earth trembled, and the heavens
dropped, the clouds also dropped water. The mountains melted from before the LORD, even that Sinai from before the LORD God of Israel.

We're into Midianite territory for sure. But I do distinct Mt Horeb (ie. Mt al-Laws) from Mt Sinai (Hala-'l Badr), the Koranic Masjid al-Haram.

And the Arabic province of Tabuk is, grosso modo, that of the old al-Qura area (Quraysh, Quran, the umm al-Qura of 6.92/42.7)...
Image

Strangely enough Maknah (Maqnah) is a destination privileged by the Saudis to become a future touristic resort! Good God !!!
Last edited by The Cat on Sat May 14, 2011 1:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

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The Cat
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by The Cat »

skynightblaze wrote: 1) A -Z ahadith are corrupted by Abassid but the other day he was saying that Abu Huraira who died 70 years before Abassids came into power corrupted the ahadith :lol:

2) Muhammad was a myth but yet quran isnt when it talks about Muhammad being the final messenger.
1. Mr. Deceiver, prove it: Where did I say that Huraira corrupted the hadiths, since we've got NO manuscript from him... :D

2. Where did you get that katham could mean 'final' or 'last'? Your biased Sunnite's tafsirs again! :turban:
It means seal which in all dictionaries mean: confirmation, certification, emblem.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/seal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?p=148403#p148403" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?p=148425#p148425" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

yeezevee
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by yeezevee »

The Cat wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:
2. Where did you get that katham could mean 'final' or 'last'? Your biased Sunnite's tafsirs again! :turban:
It means seal which in all dictionaries mean: confirmation, certification, emblem.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/seal" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?p=148403#p148403" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
viewtopic.php?p=148425#p148425" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Why are you guy discussing word "katham" when it is not there in Quran? Or, are you picking it from hadith??

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Ansar al-Zindiqi
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by Ansar al-Zindiqi »

The Cat wrote:Strangely enough Maknah (Maqnah) is a destination privileged by the Saudis to become a future touristic resort! Good God !!!
It's also a very good way to destroy whatever archaeological evidence remains . . . .
Bring the kids! :turban:
Don't be a believer but a heretic unto yourself.

yeezevee
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by yeezevee »

Ansar al-Zindiqi wrote:
Spoiler! :
The Cat wrote:Strangely enough Maknah (Maqnah) is a destination privileged by the Saudis to become a future touristic resort! Good God !!!
It's also a very good way to destroy whatever archaeological evidence remains . . . .
Bring the kids! :turban: [/center]
That is a very good suggestion to EVERY ONE in FFI..

Stop ragging each other
Stop fighting each other
BRING THE KIDS..BRING THE KIDS..

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The Cat
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by The Cat »

Ansar al-Zindiqi wrote:
The Cat wrote:Strangely enough Maknah (Maqnah) is a destination privileged by the Saudis to become a future touristic resort! Good God !!!
It's also a very good way to destroy whatever archaeological evidence remains . . . .
Well The Cat just smelled nowadays Ka'aba. It simply wasn't there formally...

In another window: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR5Xk69Xihc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Authority has the same etymological root as authenticity.

maat
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by maat »

Question to the cat.
Regards here from maat. New log in new fora , no use looking for the old information.
Once you quoted a poem mocking muhammed by women from the time around his beleaguering mekka.
Maybe former goddess worshippers?
Maybe asma bint marwan

Well now he seems not to have existed at all...hmm

But as far as I know you are the only one that ever put this mocking poem on internet.
And believe me I've searched.
Would you be able to reproduce, dig up , point etc. please.

Yep disturbing this link with vedic influences coincedes with the discussion i'm having on an other forum.
But might be due to islam colonizing india for a while.
Vedic as practiced by the higher classes.
They would allso describe yogi status to f.i. Paul or John.
That seems to point to this later mix of jezus with krisna when they came to colonize.

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Ansar al-Zindiqi
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Re: Muhammad -Myth vs Reality.

Post by Ansar al-Zindiqi »

I remember maat and as usual he is typing in his usual erratic fashion.
:troll:
Don't be a believer but a heretic unto yourself.

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