The assasination of Ka'ab

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Truthsayer
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The assasination of Ka'ab

Post by Truthsayer »

In the other thread talking about the claimed persecution faced by Muslims, some people started talking about the assassination of Ka’ab. Because of the eagerness of talking about Ka’ab, I’m creating this thread, along with a rebuttal that he was killed because of his poetry.

First of all, we should understand the situation the Muslims were in at the time. They were recovering from the battle of Badr, in which, despite having won, muslims faced casualties. The biggest threat however, was within the walls of Medinah. The Jewish tribe of Banu Qaynuqa had recently been expelled for their enmity, despite having signed a peace treaty (Seerah-i Ibn Hisham, volume 2, page 501). Some of you may deny the jews signed this willingly, but there is good reason to believe they initially wanted to ally with the Muslims. The jews had been persecuted by the byzantine empire, and were hoping that an alliance with the muslims, which they shared a lot with, could protect them.
To make sure the other Jewish tribes in the area didn’t get the same idea as the Banu Qaynuqa, they had to be dealt with, and fast. We can clearly see the delicate situation between Muhammad and the jews from another source. Muhammad held a conciliatory speech, a last warning to the jews:

The fate of Quraysh serves them right. It is a lesson to you as well. I am afraid that the same misfortune may overtake you. There are many learned men and religious scholars amongst you. You should verify from them so that they may tell you clearly that I am the Prophet of Allah and that this fact is recorded in your Scripture (the Taurat)".
The Jews replied: "Do you think that we are weak and unaware of the war strategy like Quraysh? You confronted a group who did not know the principles and tactics of fighting. However, the strength of the children of Qaynqa' will become known to you when you meet them in the battlefield".
(Mughazi-i Waqidi, volume 1, page 176 also in Tabaqat-i Kubra, volume 2, p. 39)

Ka’ab took advantage of this fragile situation by inciting the Quraysh to attack the Muslims.
Let’s have a look at Ka’ab and the assassination of him as it was mentioned in early Islamic sources.
Ibn Hisham:
Ka’ab said: "Is this true? Did Muhammad actually kill these whom these two men mention? These are the nobles of the Arabs and kingly men; by God, if Muhammad has slain these people it were better to be dead than alive."
When the enemy of God became certain that the news was true he left the town and went to Mecca to stay with al-Muttalib who was married to `Atika. She took him in and entertained him hospitably. He began to inveigh against the apostle and to recite verses in which he bewailed the Quraysh who were thrown into the pit after having been slain at Badr.
Then he composed amatory verses of an insulting nature about the Muslim women. The apostle said - according to what Abdullah Burda told me, "Who will rid me of Ibnu'l-Ashraf?" Maslama said, "I will deal with him for you, O apostle of God, I will kill him." He said, "Do so if you can." So Maslama returned and waited for three days without food or drink, apart from what was absolutely necessary. When the apostle was told of this he summoned him and asked him why he had given up eating and drinking. He replied that he had given him an undertaking and he did not know whether he could fulfil it. The apostle said, "All that is incumbent upon you is that you should try." He said, "O apostle of God, we shall have to tell lies." He answered, "Say what you like, for you are free in the matter."
There is also a large hadith in Bukhari which speaks of the assassination. It doesn’t say much about the motive though, apart from
“Allah's messenger said "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His apostle?”
So we see clearly, that according to Ibn Ishaq, he incited people against Muhammad. The hadith from Bukhari doesn’t tell us a lot, apart from the fact that Ka’ab has “hurt Allah and Muhammad”. So we can conclude that

1. Ka’ab incited people to kill Muhammad
2. This is clear treason as he was under a peace treaty with Muhammad
3. The situation between the Muslims and the Jews was delicate, and an example needed to be set.
4. And not as important, but worth mentioning; Ka’ab composed hate poems about Muslim women.

From this it can be concluded that the assassination of Ka’ab was not only completely justified, but absolutely necessary as well.
Ishaq also reports “Our attack upon Allah's enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.” While this is regrettable, it demonstrated that unprovoked enmity toward the Muslims would not be tolerated. The assassination did not happen because of criticism of Muhammad.
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Maersk
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Re: The assasination of Ka'ab

Post by Maersk »

And Allah could not send a plague of locust or sing misty to the JEWs, he had to depend on the cunnings of Modk the 20 percent profit to do his bidding. :lotpot:
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Re: The assasination of Ka'ab

Post by Maersk »

Ishaq also reports “Our attack upon Allah's enemy cast terror among the Jews, and there was no Jew in Medina who did not fear for his life.” While this is regrettable, it demonstrated that unprovoked enmity toward the Muslims would not be tolerated. The assassination did not happen because of criticism of Muhammad.
Unprovoked. So if I curse at the filthy bastard of Islam, what can happen to me today? :whistling: And when the Muslims should raise even a whimper in response to my criticism of Modk, what should we do with Muslims?!! :tongueout:
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Muhammad bin Lyin
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Re: The assasination of Ka'ab

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

OK truthsayer, why does it say he has hurt Allah and his apostle rather than he has hurt Muslims or hurt the Islamic cause? In which way can he only hurt Allah and his Apostle? Through battle? I don't think he hurt Allah in their battles, and they didn't even hurt Muhammad. Now, if we say this was because of Kab's poetry, then "hurt Allah and his Apostle" suddenly makes perfect sense. He most certainly CAN hurt Muhammad through poetry whereas he couldn't hurt Muhammad in battle. I've already told you this. It's very conclusive. Why did you ignore it?

BTW, mister convenient omission, why didn't you tell us about when Muhammad killed Kab's friends and threw them into a ditch. Do you think Kab had any reason to be mad? Also, you blatantly ignore the following facts:

1) The brave, honorable Muhammad wouldn't even do the dirty deed himself and instead had others do it for him.
2) The honorable and honest 20% profit of Islam gave them distinct permission to lie in order to achieve this. Honorable guy he was. Seems like honor is defined as whatever is needed for the situation.
3) His Mujihadeen thugs used Kab's generous nature as a weakness to be exploited to their advantage. So kind behavior is not reciprocated but rather used as something to take advantage of. This is not much different than the behavior we see today from the Mujihadeen. There's your honorable Mujihadeen. But this behavior of Muhammad and his men surprises nobody today who are familiar with the tactics of the "honorable" :lol: Mujihadeen
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skynightblaze
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Re: The assasination of Ka'ab

Post by skynightblaze »

@TRUTH SAYER
Ibn Ishaq wrote: He began to inveigh against the apostle and to recite verses in which he bewailed the Quraysh who were thrown into the pit after having been slain at Badr.
Then he composed amatory verses of an insulting nature about the Muslim women.
The apostle said - according to what Abdullah Burda told me, "Who will rid me of Ibnu'l-Ashraf?" Maslama said, "I will deal with him for you, O apostle of God, I will kill him." He said, "Do so if you can."
Ibn Ishaq says that he only composed poems.Read the part in red. Where does it say Kab launched a battle against Muhhamad or hurt muhhamad through violence? Inveigh means speak or write with hostility .There was absolutely no violence involved from Kabs side so Kab was murdered just for the sake of his poetry.
Look around yourself and you'll find people with virtues are never required to demand respect since they automatically earn it. It is only those that are devoid of any virtues need to threaten and bully to gain respect. Needless to say that quran cannot be from God.
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Re: The assasination of Ka'ab

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

Now, of course, after our "honest" truthsayer has posted the most benign, watered down version he could find, it's time to post the real deal

http://www.answering-islam.org/Authors/ ... _poets.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://muslimhope.com/JamesArlandson/Mu ... ockers.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Also, let's post some more specific hadiths rather than your watered down attempt, shall we mister "truth" sayer?? :lol:
Volume 5, Book 59, Number 369:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." Then Muhammad bin Maslama went to Kab and said, "That man (i.e. Muhammad demands Sadaqa (i.e. Zakat) from us, and he has troubled us, and I have come to borrow something from you." On that, Kab said, "By Allah, you will get tired of him!" Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Now as we have followed him, we do not want to leave him unless and until we see how his end is going to be. Now we want you to lend us a camel load or two of food." (Some difference between narrators about a camel load or two.) Kab said, "Yes, (I will lend you), but you should mortgage something to me." Muhammad bin Mas-lama and his companion said, "What do you want?" Ka'b replied, "Mortgage your women to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our women to you and you are the most handsome of the 'Arabs?" Ka'b said, "Then mortgage your sons to me." They said, "How can we mortgage our sons to you? Later they would be abused by the people's saying that so-and-so has been mortgaged for a camel load of food. That would cause us great disgrace, but we will mortgage our arms to you." Muhammad bin Maslama and his companion promised Kab that Muhammad would return to him. He came to Kab at night along with Kab's foster brother, Abu Na'ila. Kab invited them to come into his fort, and then he went down to them. His wife asked him, "Where are you going at this time?" Kab replied, "None but Muhammad bin Maslama and my (foster) brother Abu Na'ila have come." His wife said, "I hear a voice as if dropping blood is from him, Ka'b said. "They are none but my brother Muhammad bin Maslama and my foster brother Abu Naila. A generous man should respond to a call at night even if invited to be killed." Muhammad bin Maslama went with two men. (Some narrators mention the men as 'Abu bin Jabr. Al Harith bin Aus and Abbad bin Bishr). So Muhammad bin Maslama went in together with two men, and sail to them, "When Ka'b comes, I will touch his hair and smell it, and when you see that I have got hold of his head, strip him. I will let you smell his head." Kab bin Al-Ashraf came down to them wrapped in his clothes, and diffusing perfume. Muhammad bin Maslama said. " have never smelt a better scent than this. Ka'b replied. "I have got the best 'Arab women who know how to use the high class of perfume." Muhammad bin Maslama requested Ka'b "Will you allow me to smell your head?" Ka'b said, "Yes." Muhammad smelt it and made his companions smell it as well. Then he requested Ka'b again, "Will you let me (smell your head)?" Ka'b said, "Yes." When Muhammad got a strong hold of him, he said (to his companions), "Get at him!" So they killed him and went to the Prophet and informed him. (Abu Rafi) was killed after Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf."
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Chief Chingachgook
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Re: The assasination of Ka'ab

Post by Chief Chingachgook »

Aaawww... Truthslayer, stop defending a criminal ringleader mohsharmooot, the %20%profit%. Rather, go back to the drawing board and 're-engineer' your comunity. Stop teaching and feeding your children hatred. Re-write their textbooks. Show good examples to them. Stop giving and broadcasting hatred during Friday sermons. Teach spirituality, tolerance and respect instead of glorifying mohsharmoot's victories in battles. Reprimand those, of your kind, who mis-interpret the KKKoran to suit their ego. Set up a world Islamic body, just one body, like the Caliph. Respect the "There's no compulsion in religion" verse.

If you can do this for at least 3 generations, YOUR Islam will be just another religion on the face of this Blue Planet. There's no time to argue about religion. The world has depleted it's energy reservior in the form of oil. Newer and viable energy sources must be discovered and developed. The world is getting warmer and soon the weather will go hay-wire. Crops will fail and famine wil be wide-spread. When faced with all these it is going to be kuffar who will come to the rescue just like it has always been in the past. There is no proof that a god exist, it is only make-believe, faith and hope that makes a religion. A religion should make us better humans rather than turning us into beasts who slay their own daughter in cold blood just because she talked to boys. Even monkeys don't do that. Honor killers are worst than apes.

War has never been good, winners live to lick their wounds. That's why a lesser-known man before mohsharmoot said to stop fighting and to love our enemies.

Wasalammmmm!
I was chingachgook in the old forum. In this new Reservation forum I was made a Chief :whistling:
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Re: The assasination of Ka'ab

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

Matthew 5
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Anybody who reads this cannot fathom Muhammad as a follow up to Jesus. The two are simply hopelessly contradictory.
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Re: The assasination of Ka'ab

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

Hey check this out on this other forum. A Muslim confidently posts that hadith I posted and thinks that his fellow Muslim bros can explain this hadith away. He ends up getting sadly dissappointed as the best answer any Muslim gives is to tell people to close their ears when they hear things like this hadith. Others downright justify deception. Now this is TRUE Muslim honesty. They are all saying exactly what they truly believe, unlike the dishonest whitewashers. Read each and every post. Much much insight to be gained into Muslims and how they REALLY feel.

http://maniacmuslim.com/forums/index.ph ... 11685&st=0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Chiclets
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Re: The assasination of Ka'ab

Post by Chiclets »

Holy most excellent sh!t that forum has so many Ahmeds :lol:
gupsfu wrote:When someone uses the "taken out of context" argument without explaining what it's really supposed to mean, you know he's lying.
Muslims are so secure in their faith that they need to kill those who don’t share it.
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Re: The assasination of Ka'ab

Post by charleslemartel »

Chiclets wrote:Holy most excellent sh!t that forum has so many Ahmeds :lol:
:roflmao:
Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.
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Re: The assasination of Ka'ab

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They seem so happy to be most excellent breeding liars for the sake of Islam. And then they expect non - Muslims not to treat them like filth. I curse them for Islam.
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Re: The assasination of Ka'ab

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Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Matthew 5
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Anybody who reads this cannot fathom Muhammad as a follow up to Jesus. The two are simply hopelessly contradictory.


There's no way the two are even comparable, MBL.

Although I'm not a Christian, Jesus is a great role model for all times. You can't say the same for that clown Muhammed.
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Re: The assasination of Ka'ab

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Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Matthew 5
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Anybody who reads this cannot fathom Muhammad as a follow up to Jesus. The two are simply hopelessly contradictory.


Islam teaches the same thing
Muhammad:
What actions are most excellent? To gladden the heart of a human being, to feed the hungry, to help the afflicted, to lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful, and to remove the wrongs of the injured.

Whoever is kind to His creatures, God is kind to him; therefore be kind to man on earth, whether good or bad; and being kind to the bad, is to withold him from badness, thus in heaven you will be treated kindly.

To gladden the heart of the weary, to remove the suffering of the afflicted, hath its own reward. In the day of trouble, the memory of the action cometh like a rush of the torrent, and taketh our burden away.

Quran:
They steadfastly persevere in seeking their Lord, observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), spend from our provisions to them secretly and publicly, and counter evil with good. These have deserved the best abode. (13:22)

Repel evil with that which is better (23:96)

These will be given their reward twice over, because they are steadfast and repel evil with good, and spend of that wherewith We have provided them (28:54)


But I agree. The Jesus of the bible is in no way Comparable to Muhammad. Whereas the Jesus of the bible said he came to destroy families and making them hate each other (Matthew 10:34) Muhammad said: "Among the believers who show most perfect faith are those who have the best disposition and are kindest to their families" (Tirmidhi)

Where as Jesus condemed entire cities to death for rejecting him (Matthew 11:20), when a village rejected Muhammad and threw stones at him, he merely said "perhaps their children will be believers."

Where as Jesus advocated killing disobidient children (Matthew 15:4-7 and Mark 7:9) Muhammad said: "Those who have to protect their family and children and are killed for this reason are martyrs" (Bukhari and Muslim)
And "Whoever has three (or two or one) girls or sisters and treats them well and does not prefer male children over them and educates them in the best manner, Allah will make them a shield against hell and will put them in heaven" (Ibn Mace, Tirmidhi and Abu Davud).

Where Jesus killed a tree for not bearing fruit (Mark 11:13), Muhammad said: "If a Muslim plants a tree.. and a bird, a person or an animal eats from it, it will be counted as a charity for him.“(Bukhari and Muslim) And "Whoever plants a tree and diligently looks after it until it matures and bears fruit is rewarded," (Musnad Ahmad)

So I agree, The Jesus of the current bible is in no way comparable to Muhammad.
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Maersk
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Re: The assasination of Ka'ab

Post by Maersk »

Some old timer Muslims of FFI help out this poor soul already. Maybe he's thinking Jesus of Allah told his 'Christians' to kill their family members who changed their religion. How many did Jesus of the Bible preside over such killings.

Of course killing someone who has converted into Islam is only showing mercy to him and his family. :shock: Jesus of the Quran is of course no way comparable to Modk the Pedophile. What more the Jesus of the Bible. :lotpot:

Truthsayer, you are not going to trick these Muslims of FFi. Instead of just quoting the verses you should flesh out the verses and go through them line by line before and after your quotes. Be honest and truthful with the Muslims here.
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Re: The assasination of Ka'ab

Post by crazymonkie_ »

Sickening. Now I'm even more afraid of and disgusted by Islam.
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Re: The assasination of Ka'ab

Post by Muhammad bin Lyin »

Truthsayer wrote:
Muhammad bin Lyin wrote:Matthew 5
38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[g] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. 43"You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor[h] and hate your enemy.' 44But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.


Anybody who reads this cannot fathom Muhammad as a follow up to Jesus. The two are simply hopelessly contradictory.


Islam teaches the same thing
Muhammad:
What actions are most excellent? To gladden the heart of a human being, to feed the hungry, to help the afflicted, to lighten the sorrow of the sorrowful, and to remove the wrongs of the injured.

Whoever is kind to His creatures, God is kind to him; therefore be kind to man on earth, whether good or bad; and being kind to the bad, is to withold him from badness, thus in heaven you will be treated kindly.

To gladden the heart of the weary, to remove the suffering of the afflicted, hath its own reward. In the day of trouble, the memory of the action cometh like a rush of the torrent, and taketh our burden away.


Oh, so this is an "authentic" hadith, right? You realize that if you open up the hadiths, it's going to make Muhammad's case even worse, don't you? Yeah, i know how it works, the kind hadiths are the true ones and the nastier ones are automatically the false one. :lol: I know all about it.

Truthsayer wrote: Quran:
They steadfastly persevere in seeking their Lord, observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), spend from our provisions to them secretly and publicly, and counter evil with good. These have deserved the best abode. (13:22)


This says help your brothers who are not your enemies, but rather your co faithful

"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"

9:113 (Y. Ali) It is not fitting, for the Prophet and those who believe, that they should pray for forgiveness for Pagans, even though they be of kin, after it is clear to them that they are companions of the Fire.

And there it is, right there for everyone to see. The clear contradiction between the two.

Truthsayer wrote: Repel evil with that which is better (23:96)


"But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person."

Truthsayer wrote: But I agree. The Jesus of the bible is in no way Comparable to Muhammad. Whereas the Jesus of the bible said he came to destroy families and making them hate each other (Matthew 10:34) Muhammad said: "Among the believers who show most perfect faith are those who have the best disposition and are kindest to their families" (Tirmidhi)


That is because, just like your prophet, you can't understand what Jesus is saying for the life of you. That's why you're a Muslim. Jesus was never literal about anything and instead was always pointing to a deeper conceptual meaning. Family is one of the most precious attachments we have on this earth. Family and money seem to be the two biggest attachments we have. But Jesus said many times, do not be attached to things of this world, because that is the way of your father on earth, not your father in heaven. He was saying to abandon old earthly habits and take on a new way. But this would mean abandoning one's father's way. And then, there was the man who became sad because he couldn't say goodbye to his family if he wanted to follow Jesus, and so he didn't follow him. These are all pointing to an idea that one cannot enter heaven if they have attachments from this life. It is harder for the camel to pass through the needle of the eye, in the case of money.... Or, "be a passer by". Or, once someone has set their hand to the plow, they must never look back. There's even more depth to it, but I don't have the space or time to go into it. But again, Muslims are Muslims because nobody has ever shown them what is underneath Jesus' words. Many "Eastern" philosophy people actually recognize what Jesus says right away because he is dripping with concepts of the mystic. They see the second meaning. Regardless of whether Jesus was the Son of God or not, we can KNOW that he was a mystic simply because of the ideas he said and then we can understand these ideas. But many don't understand this.

Truthsayer wrote: Where as Jesus condemed entire cities to death for rejecting him (Matthew 11:20), when a village rejected Muhammad and threw stones at him, he merely said "perhaps their children will be believers."


What are you talking about? He warned them of judgment day, that's all, whereas Muhammad went in and actually slayed cities, took slaves, and told his men that they didn't even have to pull their thingee out before climax when they were raping their captive slaves. Are you out of your mind? Jesus seemed to try to evolve the religion, and Muhammad just turned it back around and made it even worse.

Truthsayer wrote: Where as Jesus advocated killing disobidient children (Matthew 15:4-7 and Mark 7:9)
Matthew 15
4For God said, 'Honor your father and mother'[a] and 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'5But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,' 6he is not to 'honor his father[c]' with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition. 7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:

Matthew 7
5So the Pharisees and teachers of the law asked Jesus, "Why don't your disciples live according to the tradition of the elders instead of eating their food with 'unclean' hands?"

6He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written:
" 'These people honor me with their lips,
but their hearts are far from me.
7They worship me in vain;
their teachings are but rules taught by men.' 8You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

9And he said to them: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions! 10For Moses said, 'Honor your father and your mother,'[d] and, 'Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.'[e] 11But you say that if a man says to his father or mother: 'Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is Corban' (that is, a gift devoted to God), 12then you no longer let him do anything for his father or mother. 13Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that." 14Again Jesus called the crowd to him and said, "Listen to me, everyone, and understand this. 15Nothing outside a man can make him 'unclean' by going into him. Rather, it is what comes out of a man that makes him 'unclean.' "[f]


Killing disobedient children? That's what it was all about? Look at the way you tried to word that. That's pretty shameful. He's putting Moses' statement back at them, that's all he's doing. Look at it.


Truthsayer wrote: Muhammad said: "Those who have to protect their family and children and are killed for this reason are martyrs" (Bukhari and Muslim)
And "Whoever has three (or two or one) girls or sisters and treats them well and does not prefer male children over them and educates them in the best manner, Allah will make them a shield against hell and will put them in heaven" (Ibn Mace, Tirmidhi and Abu Davud).


Are you sure you want to raise the hadiths? You DO understand that they will destroy the image you wish to portray about Muhammad?

Truthsayer wrote: Where Jesus killed a tree for not bearing fruit (Mark 11:13), Muhammad said: "If a Muslim plants a tree.. and a bird, a person or an animal eats from it, it will be counted as a charity for him.“(Bukhari and Muslim) And "Whoever plants a tree and diligently looks after it until it matures and bears fruit is rewarded," (Musnad Ahmad)


:lol: You really don't have any clue what's beneath Jesus' words. Islam is a nice, simple, straightforward and easy way to gaurantee yourself your little reward and comfort yourself with the notion. No deep thought needed. Stick with it. :lol:

Now, if you would like, should I list some other hadiths about our darling Muhammad? It's your call.
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Truthsayer
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Re: The assasination of Ka'ab

Post by Truthsayer »

Oh, so this is an "authentic" hadith, right? You realize that if you open up the hadiths, it's going to make Muhammad's case even worse, don't you? Yeah, i know how it works, the kind hadiths are the true ones and the nastier ones are automatically the false one. :lol: I know all about it.
The ahadith are at least "fair" in strength as far as I remember.
Quran:
They steadfastly persevere in seeking their Lord, observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), spend from our provisions to them secretly and publicly, and counter evil with good. These have deserved the best abode. (13:22)
This says help your brothers who are not your enemies, but rather your co faithful
It says "Counter evil with good". Why do you think it only applies to evil from muslims? I don't see any reason from the Qur'an, neither does all the commentators I've found
Tafsir al-Jalalayn:
such as are patient, through obedience and [during] hardship, and [staying] away from disobedience, desiring, seeking, their Lord’s countenance, and nothing else, from among the transient things of this world; and maintain the prayer and expend, in obedience, of that which We have provided them, secretly and openly, and repel evil with good, such as [repelling] ignorance through forbearance, and harm through patience; those, theirs shall be the sequel of the [heavenly] Abode: that is, the praiseworthy sequel in the Hereafter, namely:

Tanwîr al-Miqbâs
(Such as persevere) in fulfilling the commands of Allah and in bearing misfortune (in seeking their Lord's Countenance) in pursuit of their Lord's good pleasure (and are regular in prayer) and perform the five daily prayers (and spend of that which We bestow upon them) and give alms from that which We have given them (secretly) such that none knows of it except Allah (and openly) in front of people, (and overcome evil with good) they face evil speech with good speech. (Theirs) the reward of those who fit the description above in His saying: (But only men of understanding… and overcome evil with good) to these people (will be the sequel of the (heavenly) Home) i.e. Paradise.

Ibn Kathir
(20. Those who fulfill, the covenant of Allah and break not the trust.) (21. And those who join that which Allah has commanded to be joined and fear their Lord, and dread the terrible reckoning. ) (22. And those who remain patient, seeking their Lord's Face, perform the Salah, and spend out of that which We have bestowed on them, secretly and openly, and repel evil with good, for such there is a good end.) (23. `Adn Gardens, which they shall enter and (also) those who acted righteously from among their fathers, and their wives, and their offspring. And angels shall enter unto them from every gate (saying):) (24. "Salamun `Alaykum (peace be upon you) for you persevered in patience! Excellent indeed is the final home!'')
"But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you"

9:113 (Y. Ali) It is not fitting, for the Prophet and those who believe, that they should pray for forgiveness for Pagans, even though they be of kin, after it is clear to them that they are companions of the Fire.

And there it is, right there for everyone to see. The clear contradiction between the two.

The two does not contradict each other. 9:113 says you shouldn't ask for forgiveness, but you can and should still pray for their guidance.

Repel evil with that which is better (23:96)
"But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person."

"Do not resist an evil person" is hopelessly naive and I doubt Jesus actually said that. I'll gladly admit islam doesn't teach that, but it does teach "Return evil with kindness, regardless of whether the evil-doer is a muslim or not."

That is because, just like your prophet, you can't understand what Jesus is saying for the life of you. That's why you're a Muslim. Jesus was never literal about anything and instead was always pointing to a deeper conceptual meaning. Family is one of the most precious attachments we have on this earth. Family and money seem to be the two biggest attachments we have. But Jesus said many times, do not be attached to things of this world, because that is the way of your father on earth, not your father in heaven. He was saying to abandon old earthly habits and take on a new way. But this would mean abandoning one's father's way. And then, there was the man who became sad because he couldn't say goodbye to his family if he wanted to follow Jesus, and so he didn't follow him. These are all pointing to an idea that one cannot enter heaven if they have attachments from this life. It is harder for the camel to pass through the needle of the eye, in the case of money.... Or, "be a passer by". Or, once someone has set their hand to the plow, they must never look back. There's even more depth to it, but I don't have the space or time to go into it. But again, Muslims are Muslims because nobody has ever shown them what is underneath Jesus' words. Many "Eastern" philosophy people actually recognize what Jesus says right away because he is dripping with concepts of the mystic. They see the second meaning. Regardless of whether Jesus was the Son of God or not, we can KNOW that he was a mystic simply because of the ideas he said and then we can understand these ideas. But many don't understand this.

According to the bible, Jesus said
He told them, "The secret of the kingdom of God has b
een given to you. But to those on the outside everything is said in parables so that, "'they may be ever seeing but never perceiving, and ever hearing but never understanding; otherwise they might turn and be forgiven!'" (Mark 4:11-12)

Here's some commentary I found of it
To them that are without — So the Jews termed the heathens: so our Lord terms all obstinate unbelievers: for they shall not enter into his kingdom: they shall abide in outer darkness.
So that seeing they see and do not perceive — They would not see before now they could not, God having given them up to the blindness which they had chosen.

So basically, Jesus talked the way he did to confuse people so they will go to hell?
What are you talking about? He warned them of judgment day, that's all, whereas Muhammad went in and actually slayed cities. Are you out of your mind?

Slayed cities? When?
According to the bible:
Then Jesus began to denounce the cities in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent. (Matthew 11:20)

When Muhammad was rejected by a village, and they threw stones at him, one of his companions, Zaid bin Harith, requested that he cursed them. Muhammad replied "Why should I?"
That is a contradiction.

Killing disobedient children? That's what it was all about? Look at the way you tried to word that. That's pretty shameful.

According to the bible, he said advocated the old testament commandment of "Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death." And he called people hypocrites for not doing it. My wording may have been wrong, but it's still despicable.

Are you sure you want to raise the hadiths? You DO understand that they will destroy the image you wish to portray about Muhammad?

For every hadith you can show portraying Muhammad in a bad light, I can show 50 that show him in a good. So please do bring your hadith, though I can already predcit the ones your going to shamelessly rape, distort, take out of context and apply your moral relativism to. That's the problem with pretty much all islam-critics. They don't look at the whole picture.

:lol: You really don't have any clue what's beneath Jesus' words. Islam is a nice, simple, straightforward and easy way to gaurantee yourself your little reward and comfort yourself with the notion. Ni hard thought needed. Stick with it. :lol:

Do tell what Jesus supposedly meant by cursing a tree for not bearing fruit out of season?

Now, if you would like, should I list some other hadiths about our darling Muhammad? It's your call.

Do what you want.
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Re: The assasination of Ka'ab

Post by Truthsayer »

Also, I forgot to mention the claimed assasination of the jewish poetess Asma' bint Marwan. In Ibn Ishaq it's written
"'You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?' Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, 'Will no one rid me of this woman?' Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet's wishes. That very night he crept into the writer's home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling babe and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, 'You have helped Allah and His Apostle.' Umayr said. 'She had five sons; should I feel guilty?' 'No,' the Prophet answered. 'Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.'"
It really is rather clear that this report is nothing but slander just from it's contents. But let's look at its authenticity. It's chain of narration has mistakenly been mentioned as:
lt is narrated on the authority of Ja'far Ibn Ahmad Ibn Muhammad Ibn As-Sabah on authority of Muhammad Ibn Ibrahim Ash-Shami on authority of Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj Al-Lakhmi on authority of Mujalid on authority of Ash-Shu'abi on authority of Ibn 'Abbas. However, It doesn't actually go through Mujalid but Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj, a man known to fabricate reports. This is mentioned in Ibn 'Adiyy, Al-Kamel, Volume 6, p. 145.
When looking at the other narrators, they actually only narrated it as a slur against Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj, as in "look at what this idiot forged." Ishaq repeated it because he thought it went through Mujalid.

Therefore, this report is almost certainly fabricated, as it goes through a person known to fabricate false reports.

The absurdity of this report is also exposed when looking at Muhammad's reaction in another incident
Narrated Anas bin Malik: A Jewish woman brought a poisoned (cooked) sheep for the Prophet who ate from it. She was brought to the Prophet and he was asked, "Shall we kill her?" He said, "No." I continued to see the effect of the poison on the palate of the mouth of God’s Apostle.
(Sahih al-Bukhârî, Volume 3, Book 47, Number 786)
See, Muhammad forbade killing a jewish woman who tried to murder him with poison. So the claim that Muhammad killed a woman for insulting him is absolutely absurd.
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Re: The assasination of Ka'ab

Post by Maersk »

If Modk did not kill any Jewish women, then he must have twisted in agony like the withered fig tree without leaves for losing faith in his sock puppet Allah. If he did not, he did so out of bad faith for not keeping with the his own surah of 'Kill them wherever you find them!" - :tongueout:
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