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Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 4:03 pm
by sum
Hello SAM and ISLAM_rules

Did Muhammad lie?

Was he a liar?

sum

Re: Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 7:18 pm
by Hombre
Yes he did lie. In fact, and taught his followers to do the same. in Islam there is a word for it - Taqqiyah. (ta-ki-yah)

Re: Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Fri Jan 20, 2017 9:24 pm
by sum
The following says that he did lie -

I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.”
~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111)

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle called,: "War is deceit".
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:268, See Also Sahih Bukhari 4:52:269

SAM and ISLAM_rules know Islam very well and so they should be able to add more lies to those I listed. Come on, muslims, and tell us what more lies Muhammad made.

sum

Re: Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Thu Jan 26, 2017 5:15 pm
by sum
Where are SAM and ISLAM_rules?

Silence means that you agree, doesn`t it, SAM and ISLAM_rules?

Would you care to comment and try and excuse Muhammad`s lying or are you going to hang him out to dry?

If Muhammad has been shown to be a liar, how can we believe anything in the Koran which Muhammad claims to be revelations from Allah via Gabriel?

Don`t you think that you have been conned, SAM and ISLAM_rules?

sum

Re: Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 2:26 am
by abc123
Hombre wrote:Yes he did lie. In fact, and taught his followers to do the same. in Islam there is a word for it - Taqqiyah. (ta-ki-yah)


Where does "Taqiyya" originated, from the Qur'anic perspective?

Re: Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 9:54 am
by sum
Hello abc123

Takiyya

Takiyya is defined as dissimulation about ones Muslim identity. It comes from the verse in the Quran that says, “Let believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful – he that does has nothing to hope for from Allah – except in self-defense (illaa an-tattaqu minhum tuqah) (Surah 3:28). This “self-defense” justifies dissimulation. Islamic Sharia Law provides, “When it is possible to achieve an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible, and lying is obligatory if the goal is obligatory.” (Reliance of the Traveler, Para r8.2) Examples include lying to protect Islam or a Muslim.

sum

Re: Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:21 am
by sum
Hello abc123

Muhammad lied but did not receive any reprimand from Allah and so the Koran( Allah- otherwise known as Muhammad) must allow lying.

sum

Re: Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:38 am
by abc123
sum wrote:Hello abc123

Takiyya

Takiyya is defined as dissimulation about ones Muslim identity. It comes from the verse in the Quran that says, “Let believers not make friends with infidels in preference to the faithful – he that does has nothing to hope for from Allah – except in self-defense (illaa an-tattaqu minhum tuqah) (Surah 3:28). This “self-defense” justifies dissimulation. Islamic Sharia Law provides, “When it is possible to achieve an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible, and lying is obligatory if the goal is obligatory.” (Reliance of the Traveler, Para r8.2) Examples include lying to protect Islam or a Muslim.

sum

"Let not the believers take the unbelievers for friends rather than believers; and whoever does this, he shall have nothing of (the guardianship of) Allah, but you should guard yourselves against them, guarding carefully; and Allah makes you cautious of (retribution from) Himself; and to Allah is the eventual coming"

I failed to see the existence of the "LIE" and/or the "LIAR" from that verse. You did not read it didn't you.

Explained it from your own perspective Sum, it would be better.

Re: Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 4:07 pm
by sum
Hello abc123

The correct perspective comes from Islam itself. If you can not accept what I say then perhaps you will accept what Al Ghazali says. I think that he carries more weight than you do.

sum

Re: Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Sat Mar 04, 2017 10:50 pm
by abc123
sum wrote:Hello abc123

The correct perspective comes from Islam itself. If you can not accept what I say then perhaps you will accept what Al Ghazali says. I think that he carries more weight than you do.

sum

Sum, you did not say anything to explain Taqiyya, you present copy and paste without reading it. I merely read your "copy and paste" and I can't see the LIE or the LIAR in that verse that you trying to prove, nothing more.

Re: Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:03 pm
by sum
Hello abc123

You have ignored my post regarding Al Ghazali and lying. Please tell me if Al Ghazali is wrong.

Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali wrote:
Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible." (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745)

I will ask again - is Al Ghazali wrong?

sum

Re: Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 12:22 am
by abc123
sum wrote:Hello abc123

You have ignored my post regarding Al Ghazali and lying. Please tell me if Al Ghazali is wrong.

Imam Abu Hammid Ghazali wrote:
Speaking is a means to achieve objectives. If a praiseworthy aim is attainable through both telling the truth and lying, it is unlawful to accomplish through lying because there is no need for it. When it is possible to achieve such an aim by lying but not by telling the truth, it is permissible to lie if attaining the goal is permissible." (Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, The Reliance of the Traveller, translated by Nuh Ha Mim Keller, amana publications, 1997, section r8.2, page 745)

I will ask again - is Al Ghazali wrong?

sum


Sum, please reply kindly of my request, otherwise just move on, you have no obligation to reply:

abc123 wrote:
Hombre wrote:Yes he did lie. In fact, and taught his followers to do the same. in Islam there is a word for it - Taqqiyah. (ta-ki-yah)


Where does "Taqiyya" originated, from the Qur'anic perspective?

Re: Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:36 am
by sum
Hello abc123

Your question has been answered - Koran 3:28.

Do not forget that Muhammad said that war was deceit.

Now tell me if Al Ghazali was wrong.

sum

Re: Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 8:39 am
by manfred
3:28 and 3:29 are some verses mentioned in that connection, but also 16:106 which is quite explicit on this.

Re: Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Mon Mar 06, 2017 7:12 pm
by panis
sum wrote:The following says that he did lie -

“I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.”
~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111)

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle called,: "War is deceit".
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:268, See Also Sahih Bukhari 4:52:269


These 2 sources not means that Muhammad was a liar

There is much evidence that Muhammad was a liar : Adam, Abraham , Moses, Jesus .... were not muslims

Ismael is not the ancestor of arabic and arabic not means muslim

Sevral lies during the Nakhla raid for example
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nakhla_raid

He did not respect the hudaybiya treaty
"Her two brothers Umara and Walid sons of Uqba came and asked the apostle to return her to them in accordance with the agreement between him and Quraysh at Hudaybiyya, but he would not. God forbade it"
http://www.answering-islam.org/Response ... ybiyya.htm

I have to forget other lies

Re: Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:22 am
by sum
Hello panis

Your post -
sum wrote:
The following says that he did lie -

“I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.”
~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111)

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle called,: "War is deceit".
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:268, See Also Sahih Bukhari 4:52:269

panis
These 2 sources not means that Muhammad was a liar

Please tell me why you do not consider that the two sources indicate that Muhammad was a liar. These two sources are to be taken with other sources inorder to tell whether Muhammad lied or condoned lying.

sum

Re: Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:50 pm
by panis
sum wrote:Hello panis

Your post -
sum wrote:
The following says that he did lie -

“I have fabricated things against God and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.”
~MUHAMMAD (Al-Tabari 6:111)

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle called,: "War is deceit".
Sahih Bukhari 4:52:268, See Also Sahih Bukhari 4:52:269

panis
These 2 sources not means that Muhammad was a liar

Please tell me why you do not consider that the two sources indicate that Muhammad was a liar. These two sources are to be taken with other sources inorder to tell whether Muhammad lied or condoned lying.

sum

Muhammad has really fabricated many things and he really recited the satanic verses and there is no sheytan. He lies when he refers to Sheytan

Muhammad thinks really that "War is deceit" and it's necessary to lie during war

Who has decided that these two sources are to be taken with other sources inorder to tell whether Muhammad lied or condoned lying ?

Re: Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:07 pm
by sum
Hello panis

I do not understand your thinking. You make statements of Muhammad lying but give no references. You then ask who says that the last two references that I gave should be added to other references to say that Muhammad lied.

What references do you rely upon to claim that Muhammad lied?

sum

Re: Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 1:11 am
by abc123
manfred wrote:3:28 and 3:29 are some verses mentioned in that connection, but also 16:106 which is quite explicit on this.

The story of allowance to deny the state of individual belief is well known. But apparently this allowance to protect the weak has been twisted to suit individual agenda by those who would use anything for personal gains. There is no way I would deny myself being muslim, but there are muslims who could not stand the pressure. This is where this allowances applies to.

Re: Did Muhammad ever lie?

PostPosted: Wed Mar 08, 2017 3:34 pm
by sum
Hello abc123

From your post it appears that you do admit that lying is permitted although you would not lie. Is this correct?

sum