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Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:23 am
by pert
I got into a argument on he youtube comments section where someone claimed aisha was mature enough to know what she was doing as she'd started puberty. What do you all think?

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 8:09 am
by manfred
All the arguments around that are summarised here:

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Aishas_Age_of_Consummation

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 9:34 am
by SAM
WikiIslam: Meet the Editors.. Most of them from FFI

Sanitarium

Sanitarium is an atheist feminist from Australia. She administered the site over several years and contributed heavily to female-related articles. She also wrote the "Islamic Prophecies" series, did the necessary research behind the "Revelational Circumstances of the Qur'an" series and recruited other editors such as Sahab.

Farside

Prophet Farside sometimes claims to be the founder of "Farsideology – the ultimate belief system." In reality, Farside is the original inspiration behind the site. He is the creator of the satirical "Farsideology" series on Islam and is one of the earliest editors of WikiIslam.

Natassia

Natassia is a Christian. Her contributions to WikiIslam concentrated on Islam's history, its attitude towards women, and its treatment of minorities such as Christians and Jews.

Khalil‎

Khalil is a former Sufi Muslim now atheist from the Middle East. He left Islam after witnessing a public, Shari'ah-sanctioned beheading. Although no longer a believer in the existence of gods, he retains a deep admiration for spiritual figures such as Jesus Christ and Gautama Buddha. His contributions to WikiIslam focused on religious violence during Prophet Muhammad's lifetime and his relationship with his child-bride, Aisha. He also helped with Arabic analysis within various articles.

THHuxley is a Scientific Deist and a prolific online debater who often argues for the validity of evolutionary science over creationism. His work centers around the scientific field and so do his numerous contributions to WikiIslam. He once emailed Dr. William W. Hay concerning the infamous "This Is The Truth" video and received a prompt, personal reply informing him that Hay's beliefs had been misrepresented and his words cut and pasted out-of-context.

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Meet_the_Editors

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Fri Jun 17, 2016 10:19 am
by pr126
Well, thanks for the listing of the editors.

What about the Islamic sources quoted in the article? Are they inaccurate? Do you disagree?
I think you should refute those first instead of the listing of the editors.
Do you have more reliable sources?

Apparently not, or you would have provided your argument instead of a list of editors.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:59 am
by pert
I've heard the argument that the Bukhari Hadith has been tampered with and is not legititmate and that Asmaa's age proves that Aisha was a teenager when she was married. What are your views?

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:08 pm
by manfred
pert wrote:I've heard the argument that the Bukhari Hadith has been tampered with and is not legititmate and that Asmaa's age proves that Aisha was a teenager when she was married. What are your views?


Well, whoever claims that there has been any "tampering" needs to provide the evidence. Simply because it says something inconvenient is insufficient evidence. The hadith are almost by all scholars described as reliable (sahih). Then we also find the same account in Sahih Muslim, a different collection of Hadith, as well as in Abu Dawud. All been tampered too? Each have the account several times from different narrators, one being Aisha herself, and she should know, one would have thought. All this would be one hell of a lot of "tampering", not discovered at all by anyone, until recent days, when non-Muslims started to question the "marriage" to Aisha.

The argument about Aisha being a teenager is a fairly new one (i.e. it was never made in the early days of Islam) and it is based on a report about Aisha'a older sister called Asma. According to almost all the historians Asma, the elder sister of Aisha, was ten years older than Aisha. It is reported in Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb as well as Al-Bidaayah wa al-Nihayah that Asma died in 73 hijrah when she was 100 years old.

Now, obviously if Asma was 100 years old in 73 hijrah she should have been 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah. If Asma was 27 or 28 years old at the time of hijrah, then Aisha should have been 17 or 18 years old at that time. Thus, Aisha, as she got married in 1 AH (after hijrah) or 2 AH, was between 18 to 20 years old at the time of her marriage, the claim goes.

There are problems with this argument though.... Even to this day in many Muslims countries the exact year of birth is often not known and age is often a estimate. This was even more the case in the early days of Islam.

When someone gets that old, people don't care too much about her exact age. It is very easy to say she was 100 years old when in fact she was only 90. The difference is not noticeable to the younger folks and 100 is a round figure. Assuming the Hadith is authentic, it could be an honest mistake. Since in those days people did not carry birth certificates, it is very much likely that the person who reported her age to be 100 did not know that she was 10 years older than Aisha and did not sit to make the calculations and deductions. She was not an important person and it did not occur to anyone that 1300 years later it would become the subject of a controversy. This could be a genuine mistake by the narrator of the Hadith. Also bear in mind that an actual age of 100 would be virtually unheard on in those days.

In addition, we also have sources claiming a greater age difference than 10 years between the two sisters, al-Dhahabi in Siyar A`lam al-Nubala' said there was a greater difference than 10 years between the two, up to 19, which would also debunk that argument.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:02 pm
by SAM
pert wrote:I've heard the argument that the Bukhari Hadith has been tampered with and is not legititmate and that Asmaa's age proves that Aisha was a teenager when she was married. What are your views?

And what say ye ?

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:32 pm
by Hombre
SAM wrote:WikiIslam: Meet the Editors.. Most of them from FFI

Sanitarium

Sanitarium is an atheist feminist from Australia. She administered the site over several years and contributed heavily to female-related articles. She also wrote the "Islamic Prophecies" series, did the necessary research behind the "Revelational Circumstances of the Qur'an" series and recruited other editors such as Sahab.

Farside

Prophet Farside sometimes claims to be the founder of "Farsideology – the ultimate belief system." In reality, Farside is the original inspiration behind the site. He is the creator of the satirical "Farsideology" series on Islam and is one of the earliest editors of WikiIslam.

Natassia

Natassia is a Christian. Her contributions to WikiIslam concentrated on Islam's history, its attitude towards women, and its treatment of minorities such as Christians and Jews.

Khalil‎

Khalil is a former Sufi Muslim now atheist from the Middle East. He left Islam after witnessing a public, Shari'ah-sanctioned beheading. Although no longer a believer in the existence of gods, he retains a deep admiration for spiritual figures such as Jesus Christ and Gautama Buddha. His contributions to WikiIslam focused on religious violence during Prophet Muhammad's lifetime and his relationship with his child-bride, Aisha. He also helped with Arabic analysis within various articles.

THHuxley is a Scientific Deist and a prolific online debater who often argues for the validity of evolutionary science over creationism. His work centers around the scientific field and so do his numerous contributions to WikiIslam. He once emailed Dr. William W. Hay concerning the infamous "This Is The Truth" video and received a prompt, personal reply informing him that Hay's beliefs had been misrepresented and his words cut and pasted out-of-context.

https://wikiislam.net/wiki/WikiIslam:Meet_the_Editors
Here we go again. another cut-n-paste from our self-hating Jew, with utter ignorance of Islam.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 5:35 pm
by Hombre
pr126 wrote:Well, thanks for the listing of the editors.

What about the Islamic sources quoted in the article? Are they inaccurate? Do you disagree?
I think you should refute those first instead of the listing of the editors.
Do you have more reliable sources?

Apparently not, or you would have provided your argument instead of a list of editors.
dear pr. By now we would know well enough about this SAM guy to realize - he is not a devout Muslim, who knows little about Islam. The very reason he writes little of his own, rather uses cut-n-paste.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 6:41 pm
by manfred
I bet our Samety-Sam has not read a single article from wikiislam, apart from the editor list... (which is incomplete, btw...)

To him people who do not confirm his own view simply have no voice for him. They are not even to be heard or read, never mind being discussed.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:33 pm
by SAM
WikiIslam... The Anti-Islam website belong to Islamophobic

I am not a new member here. It was founded by Dr. Ali Sina, a FAKE Muslim who had never been born and raised as a Muslim from Iran who is currently in hiding and residing in Canada, and also the names of the editor are all long-standing members of FFI.

Wikiislam NOT the primary sources for Muslims... :yuk:

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:46 pm
by manfred
Wikiislam NOT the primary sources for Muslims...


And that is precisely why you should look at it. Why would you be afraid? And using red colour is not a substitute for backing up a claim with evidence or sources.

All you do is AVOID listening for a bunch of silly reasons. Go ahead, I dare you, read the article on Aisha's age. Tell us where it goes wrong.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:38 am
by skynightblaze
SAM wrote:WikiIslam... The Anti-Islam website belong to Islamophobic

I am not a new member here. It was founded by Dr. Ali Sina, a FAKE Muslim who had never been born and raised as a Muslim from Iran who is currently in hiding and residing in Canada, and also the names of the editor are all long-standing members of FFI.

Wikiislam NOT the primary sources for Muslims... :yuk:


It seems you are clueless when it comes using rationale.Any source that praises islam is a good source for you irrespective of whether it is telling you the truth or not. You are not even bothered to put truthfulness as the first criteria in selection of a source . Wiki islam is well researched site which backs its claims on actual islamic sources. You do not like it because you are scared to face the truth. Just to let you know, truthfulness of what a person writes does not depend upon the place, religion or his background. What a person writes is to be evaluated purely based on the merit of his/her arguments. If you bringing other factors like he is from FFI or he is a christian or an atheist, then that's the worst argument anyone can offer because that's an irrelevant argument and a biased one. You are letting your emotions decide if the written content is good or not rather than using any rationale.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:59 am
by pr126
Expecting rational thinking when hard wired with Islam?

Muslims are so insecure in their belief that any contradiction is instantly dismissed without question.

Q 5:101 - 102

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:30 am
by pert
Thiat discussion belongs on a different thread, stay on topic> I'm getting really f.cked off with the way these threads keep getting derailed

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:55 am
by SAM
You all the KAFIRS still failed to prove that Islam is a false religion. There are many women and men who are infidels, embraced Islam claims to have seen the light and believe that Islam is the only true religion. The story of Muhammad with Aisha will not destroy the religion of Islam, the Quran and Allah. :lol:

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:59 am
by SAM
pert wrote:Thiat discussion belongs on a different thread, stay on topic> I'm getting really f.cked off with the way these threads keep getting derailed
As usual they are runner and spinner... :lol:

pert wrote:
I've heard the argument that the Bukhari Hadith has been tampered with and is not legititmate and that Asmaa's age proves that Aisha was a teenager when she was married. What are your views?


You still have not answered my question.

And what say ye ?

Muhammad's marriage to Ayesha - new article

viewtopic.php?f=20&t=5872

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:47 am
by pert
I am not convinced by the Asmaa's age argument and If Bukhari, awud and Muslim were forged then by whom and when?

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:06 am
by manfred
SAM wrote:You all the KAFIRS still failed to prove that Islam is a false religion. There are many women and men who are infidels, embraced Islam claims to have seen the light and believe that Islam is the only true religion. The story of Muhammad with Aisha will not destroy the religion of Islam, the Quran and Allah. :lol:


SAM, your inability to produce a logical case is really quite disturbing.

Converts prove Islam is true? But converts FROM Islam don't prove anything? This way of arguing reminds of of the baser moments of the "Brexit" debate. "David Beckham and JK Rowlings back remain. So it must be right." Never mind the issues, just look which side has more impressive celebrities.

And people have to prove Islam is false to whose satisfaction? Yours? You cannot prove anything to a person impervious to reason. I am 100% certain Islam is false, not simple because of the Aisha issue, but for many reasons, Mohammed's actions, the Qur'an, Islamic teachings, sharia as divine law, and much else. But it does not matter what people show you SAM, because you simply won't look and won't listen, but that does not stop you from suggesting nothing has been proved to to.

So, pert wants to discuss Aisha's age when she had sex with Mohammed, specifically the Asma argument. That is the topic. Stick to it. You are the one trying diversion tactics.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:17 am
by manfred
pert wrote:I am not convinced by the Asmaa's age argument and If Bukhari, Dawud and Muslim were forged then by whom and when?


That is the issue with the argument. It is a crackpot conspiracy theory that somehow these texts have been altered later. What would be the motive? Who did it? Why are there no varying older texts? How was it done, making the originals all disappear at the same time completely without trace?

The Asma argument is a NEW one, and has never been made before the issue of Aish's age was raised. It is a rather desperate attempt at getting the chestnuts out of the fire. The gaping hole in the argument is that Asma's age at death and even the exact year of her death may not be right. Certainly even today many Muslims don't know their birthday, or their exact age. If she was in reality only 90, also an incredible age for the time, then the hadith about Aisha fits perfectly.

It is also rather odd how multiple accounts, including from Aisha herself, get dismissed in favour of just one rather vague report about her sister's age at death.