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Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:29 am
by sum
Here is the start of Hector`s article -

http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10197

I decided to create this thread to contain the evidence Muhammad was a pedophile because Muhammadans keep on repeating the same old lies again and again.

Various Muslim apologists regurgitate the same material that Aisha was not aged nine when Muhammad married and had sex with her. To refute them please refer to the debunking of Moiz Amjad.

An example is:
http://www.answering-christianity.com/aishahage.htm

Hazrat Aishah Siddiqah's Age at Her Marriage:
[Proves that: The Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) Married Hazrat Aishah When She was 19 Years of Age and not When She Was 9.] by Ghulam Nabi Muslim Sahib, M.A.
Translated by: Masud Akhtar, B.A., LL.B.
The Light (Sep 24, 1981, pp. 13-17).

Another is:
http://www.muslim.org/islam/aisha-age.php
Age of Aisha (ra) at time of marriage
compiled by Zahid Aziz

THE LONG EVIDENCE MUHAMMAD WAS A PEDOPHILE


Section 1: Proof that Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad married and had sex with her

Islamists like to claim that Aisha had reached puberty by the time Muhammad married and had sex with her. However, they never provide verifiable proof that Aisha actually was pubescent when Muhammad married and had sex with her, but commonly claim traditions or cultural practices as proof. This is, of course, false as demonstrated by the hadiths and the commentary of one of Islam’s most famous hadith scholars, Imam Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al-'Asqalani, Commander of the Faithful in Hadith, Qadi of Egypt, and author of the celebrated commentary on Sahih Bukhari, Fateh al-Bari.

To prove Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad married and had sex with her, one has to understand Ibn Hajar’s explanation of the permissibility of doll-playing for pre-pubescent girls. Then applying this doll-playing exegesis to hadiths of Aisha getting married or when she first had sex with Muhammad, one can then demonstrate that she was pre-pubescent on these occasions.

In this article, the term 'pre-pubescence' used is a short-hand for 'before a girl menstruates' or the Western medical term 'pre-menarchial'. {It is not the same or intended to be the same as the Western medical term "pre-pubescence" which is a specific Jargon for the stage before the sexual developmental stages of puberty.} This is to be consistent with the Islamic definition of 'puberty' which is when a girl begins to menstruates.


Part 1: Proof that doll-playing girls are pre-pubescent

This is what the great hadith scholar, Shaykh al-Islam Imam Al-Hafiz Ibn Hajar Al-'Asqalani, Commander of the Faithful in Hadith, Qadi of Egypt, said regarding doll-playing and little girls:

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151
Narrated 'Aisha: I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13)

How do we know that Ibn Hajar made the doll-playing exegesis: “The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty”?

Because of the reference to Fateh-al-Bari and because when we look at other translations of Bukhari 8:151, the same message is conveyed.

Alternative translation 1:
http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/Gi ... gDolls.htm

On the authority of Aisha (RA), who said: I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (SAW). And I had girl-friends (playmates) who played along with me. They would hide (feeling shy) from him (SAW) whenever he entered. But, he (SAW) would send for them to join me and they would play with me. (Sahih Bukhari & Muslim)

[The translator then provides some discussion about translations of various versions of this hadith before he follows up with Ibn Hajar and Fath-al-Bari]

Al-Haafidh Ibn Hajar said in Fath al-Baaree (Fath al-Baaree, no. 6130, Kitaab: al-Adab, Baab: al-Inbisaat ilaa an-Naas): This Hadith has been used as a proof for the permissibility of possessing (suwar - of) dolls and toys for the purpose of the little girls playing with them. This has been especially exempted from the general prohibition of possession of images (suwar).


Alternative translation 2:
http://63.175.194.25/index.php?ln=eng&d ... 9844&dgn=4

But if these images and dolls are toys for children, the Sunnah indicates that they are permissible. In al-Saheehayn it is narrated that ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said: “I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and I had female friends who would play with me…” al-Bukhaari, 6130; Muslim, 2440.

Ibn Hajar said: This hadeeth indicates that it is permissible to have images of girls (i.e., dolls) and toys for girls to play with. This is an exception from the general meaning of the prohibition on having images. This was stated by ‘Iyaad and was narrated from the majority. They permitted the sale of dolls to girls so as to teach them from a young age how to take care of their homes and children. Ibn Hibbaan stated that it is permissible for young girls to play with toys…


Alternative translation 3:
http://www.bilalphilips.com/books/eemaan/eemaan05.htm

Aaishah said, “I used to play with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (pbuh), and my girlfriends used to play along with me. Whenever, Allaah's Messenger (pbuh) would enter, they would hide from him. So he called them to play with me.”

In the classical commentary on Saheeh al-Bukhaare entitled Fat-h al-Baaree, Ibn Hajar al-'Asqalaanee wrote the following: “This hadeeth is used as evidence for the permissibility of making dolls and toys with human and animal forms for the purpose of girls playing with them. This category has been specifically excluded from the general prohibition against making images. ‘Iyaad stated this to be categorically so and related that it was the position of the majority of scholars. He further related that they permitted the selling of toys for girls in order to train them from their youth in their household affairs and in dealing with their children…”

Note the great similarity in the commentaries of Ibn Hajar in Fateh al-Bari all four versions of the hadith. The words are different because of the different translators but the essential message is unchanged – only little girls (i.e. before puberty) are permitted to play with dolls.


How do we know that little girls are pre-pubescent? Because Islamic customs and laws specifically state so.

For example:
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamental ... st_21.html

Girls reach puberty and adulthood when they experience the above three signs. However, they have a fourth sign, that is, menstruation (hayd). Whenever a girl experiences it, she is a woman even if she is 12 years old.

http://www.alinaam.org.za/social/myaaisha.htm
http://www.lightuponlight.com/islam/mod ... le&sid=151

Islam And the Age of Puberty
Islam clearly teaches that adulthood starts when a person have attained puberty.

These Islamic websites provide the evidence that in Islam, when a girl reaches puberty, she ceases to be a girl and becomes a woman. Therefore, little girls must be pre-pubescent according to Islamic customs and laws.


We also have commentaries by hadith scholars that reinforce this point.

http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/Gi ... gDolls.htm

Al-Qaadee 'Iyaad has stated this position with definiteness, and transmitted it as the position of the Majority (Jumhoor) of the Scholars; and that they declared permissible the selling of toys/dolls (al-lu'ab) for little girls, to train them from childhood for the household responsibilities and child-rearing.

Al-Khattaabee said: … it is understood that playing with dolls (al-banaat) is not like the amusement from other images (suwar) concerning which the threat (wa'eed) of punishment is mentioned. The only reason why permission in this was given to Aisha (RA) is because she had not, at that time, reached the age of puberty.


http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/Po ... fDolls.htm

… Abu 'Ubaid, who said: We don't see there being any reason for that (permission to play with her dolls), except due to the fact that these toys are a source of amusement (lahw) for the children. So, if they were owned by adults, it would definitely have been detestable (makhrooh).



Part 2: Proof that Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad first had sex with her on her wedding day


Tabari IX:131 “My mother came to me while I was being swung on a swing between two branches and got me down. My nurse took over and wiped my face with some water and started leading me. When I was at the door she stopped so I could catch my breath. I was brought in while Muhammad was sitting on a bed in our house. My mother made me sit on his lap. The other men and women got up and left. The Prophet consummated his marriage with me in my house when I was nine years old. Neither a camel nor a sheep was slaughtered on behalf of me.”

This hadith suggests that Muhammad had sex with Aisha in her house on her wedding day. However, was this event really on her wedding day? This is proven by the Sahih Bukhari hadith below. Note the similarity in accounts, although the Bukhari 5:234 hadith is more expansive on the fact that the events took place on Aisha’s wedding day.

Narrated Aisha: "The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Alright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 234)"


Sahih Muslim Book 8, Number 3311
'A'isha reported that Allah's Apostle married her when she was seven years old, and (s)he was taken to his house as a bride when she was nine, and her dolls were with her; and when he died she was eighteen years old.

Note that Sahih Muslim says that Aisha still had her dolls with her when she was taken to Muhammad’s house as a bride. Applying Ibn Hajar’s doll-playing exegesis from Part 1, it becomes clear that Aisha was pre-pubescent when she became a bride.


Therefore, it is abundantly clear from the hadiths that Aisha was pre-pubescent when Muhammad first had sex with her on her wedding day.



Part 3: Proof from Sunan Abu Dawud

This proof is slightly controversial because not every Muslim accepts the hadiths of Sunan Abu Dawud to be sahih (authentic). However, Sunan Abu Dawud is still the third most respected collection of hadiths, and the relevant Abu Dawud hadith used here is considered sahih by some of the most authoritative hadith scholars, including Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari' (Imaam of Masjid Qubaa and professor of tafseer and Quranic recitation at the Islamic University of Madeenah).


From Abu Dawud, Vol. 2, #2116: "Aisha said, "The Apostle of Allah married me when I was seven years old." (The narrator Sulaiman said: "Or six years."). "He had intercourse with me when I was 9 years old."

Here we see that Muhammad has sex with Aisha when she was 9 years old. Is this age confirmed by other hadiths? Yes.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 236.
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed (sic – consummated) that marriage when she was nine years old.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old, and then she remained with him for nine years (i.e., till his death).

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 65
Narrated 'Aisha:
that the Prophet married her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old. Hisham said: I have been informed that 'Aisha remained with the Prophet for nine years (i.e. till his death)." what you know of the Quran (by heart)'

Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).

Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 41, Number 4915
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter.

Does consummate mean sex? Here is proof that it does.

http://www.exmuslim.com/com/evidence.htm

There has been some confusion about the definition of the word "consummate". In Sahih Bukhari, vol. 7, #64, the root word used is "dakhala". From the Hans-Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary p273, it means "to enter, to pierce, to penetrate, to consummate the marriage, cohabit, sleep with a woman".


But how do we know that at the age of nine Aisha was still pre-pubescent? Here is the evidence from Sunan Abu Dawood, Vol. 3, #4914 (This hadith is also repeated in Sunan Nasa’i):

http://www.themuslimwoman.com/beware/Po ... fDolls.htm

Possession of Dolls By Little Girls
On the authority of Aisha (RA), that she said:
The Messenger of Allah (SAW) returned from the battle of Tabook or Khaibar (the narrator of the hadith was in doubt about whether he was told "Tabook or Khaibar."). There was a curtain covering her 'sahwah' (chamber or small room in front of the house). The wind blew a side of the curtain and uncovered Aisha's dolls. He (SAW) said: What is this, O Aisha? She said: My dolls. The he (SAW) saw amongst them a horse with two wings from scraps of cloth. He (SAW) said: What is this which I see amongst them (amongst the dolls)? She said: A horse. He asked: What is upon it? She said: Two wings. He (SAW) asked (in astonishment): A horse with two wings? She said: Didn't you hear that Sulaiman (Solomon - AS) had horses with wings? She said: Then he (SAW) laughed until I saw his molar teeth. [Abu Daawood, An-Nasaa'iee as-Sunan al-Kubraa, Albani (ra) says the chain of narrators of an-Nasaa'ee is authentic (Saheeh). As for the chain of narrators of Abu Daawood, Albani (ra) has also declared it to be authentic (saheeh)]

Shaykh Muhammad Shams al-Haqq al-'Adheem Aabaadee, in his Sharh (explanation) of Sunan Abu Daawood, says: This hadith and the one before it (Hadith #20) is used as an evidence of permissibility of possession of dolls and toys for the purpose of little girls playing with them. This (permission) is a special exception from the general prohibition of possession of images (suwar). This position has been stated with certainty by al-Qaadee 'Iyaad, and he has quoted it as the opinion of the Jumhoor (Majority of Scholars). He also said that the Jumhoor has allowed the sale of toys (dolls) for little girls, in order to train and prepare them from childhood for their household affairs and the raising of their children.

According to the generally accepted tradition, Aisha was born about eight years before Hijrah. The battle of Khaibar took place in Muharram-Safar 7 AH. The siege of Tabuk took place in Rajab 9 AH. Therefore, to be generous, I accept the Khaibar explanation and not the later, Tabuk explanation.

It is generally accepted that Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of 6 in the year 3 BH. This is confirmed by reports that the marriage was consummated in Shawwal, which came seven months after the Prophet's hijra from Makkah to al-Medinah.

So the Abu Dawood hadith says that Aisha was still playing with dolls at least as late as 7 AH. That is 6-7 years after her marriage. Using the doll-playing exegesis of Ibn Hajar, Abu Ubaid, al-Qaadee 'Iyaad, and Shaykh Muhammad Shams al-Haqq, Aisha did not reach puberty until at least 6-7 years after her marriage when she would have been about 15-16 years old, but lets say 14 years old to be generous.


Note that some Islamists will try to say that this hadith is not sahih. They will use this translation of the same hadith and point out the phrase (the narrator is doubtful):

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin: When the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) arrived after the expedition to Tabuk or Khaybar (the narrator is doubtful), the draught raised an end of a curtain which was hung in front of her store-room, revealing some dolls which belonged to her.

He asked: What is this? She replied: My dolls. Among them he saw a horse with wings made of rags, and asked: What is this I see among them? She replied: A horse. He asked: What is this that it has on it? She replied: Two wings. He asked: A horse with two wings? She replied: Have you not heard that Solomon had horses with wings? She said: Thereupon the Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) laughed so heartily that I could see his molar teeth. [Sunan Abu Dawood, Vol. 3, #4914]


The evidence that this hadith is sahih, and that the phrase (the narrator is doubtful) does not mean that the hadith is doubtful but that the narrator was doubtful about being told it was Khaybar or Tabuk, are as follows:


1. The version from the themuslimwoman.com site says that, “the narrator of the hadith was in doubt about whether he was told "Tabook or Khaibar”. That is, not in doubt about the hadith.

Further, at the end of the hadith, famous hadith scholars explicitly pronounced that the hadith is indeed authentic: “Abu Daawood, An-Nasaa'iee as-Sunan al-Kubraa, Albani (ra) says the chain of narrators of an-Nasaa'ee is authentic (Saheeh). As for the chain of narrators of Abu Daawood, Albani (ra) has also declared it to be authentic (saheeh)”.


2. alternative translations do not carry the word ‘doubt’

http://www.islamicdawah.mobilixnet.dk/i ... of_man.htm

Also on the authority of Aisha who said: “The Prophet (saw) returned from the battle of Tabuk, or it was Khaybar. There was a curtain over her room. The wind blew, lifting the curtain and exposing part of the room in which the Prophet (saw) saw some dolls with which Aisha used to play. He said, “What is this, O Aisha?” She said: “My daughters.” (Arabs used to call dolls for “daughters”) He saw among them a horse with two wings made of pieces of cloth. He said “And what is this in the middle?” She said, “A horse.” He said, “and what are those on the horse?” She said: “Two wings.” He said, ”A horse with two wings?!” Aisha said: “The Prophet (saw) laughed until I could see his molar teeth” (Abu Daawood, an-Nasaa’ee).


http://members.tripod.com/ahya/eng/home.html

On the authority of Aa'ishah (radiyallahu anha), who said: 'The Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) returned from the battle of Tabook or it was Khaybar. There was a curtain over my room. The wind blew, lifting the curtain and exposing a part of my room in which, Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wasallam) saw some dolls with which Aa'ishah (radhi allahu anhu) used to play. He said: “What is this O Aa'ishah?” She replied 'my daughters (Arabs used to call dolls, daughters). He saw among them a horse with two wings made out of a piece of cloth. He said: “What is this?” She replied: 'A horse' He said: “and what are those on the horses?” She replied: 'Two wings' He said: “A horse with two wings?!” Aa'ishah said: 'The Prophet laughed until I could see his molar teeth.' [Authentic - Abo Dawood An Nisa'ee in Al-Ishrah]



3. Authoritative Islamic scholars still use this hadith in their judgment of Islamic laws and customs

http://www.bilalphilips.com/books/eemaan/eemaan05a.htm

Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari' (Imaam of Masjid Qubaa and professor of tafseer and Quranic recitation at the Islamic University of Madeenah) had this to say about image-making in al-Usrah:

“Regarding the hadeeth of Aaishah that she played with dolls in the presence of the Prophet (pbuh), and, in some versions of the hadeeth, that one of the dolls was in the shape of a winged horse, and that when the Prophet (pbuh) asked her about it, she replied, ‘Didn't you hear that [Prophet] Sulayman had a horse with wings?’ to which the Prophet (pbuh) responded by laughing; this hadeeth indicates the permissibility of children’s figurative toys, owning them and using them, whether they are clearly representative or not, and whether skillfully or crudely fashioned. There is no basis in the hadeeth for making a distinction. Those who say that Aaishah's dolls were not distinctly representative have made an arbitrary judgement not based on any evidence. What do they say about a winged horse?”

How can Islamists claim that the Imam of Masjid Qubaa and professor of tafseer and Quranic recitation at the Islamic University of Madeenah uses a hadith that is not sahih to pronounce on the permissibility of doll-playing among Saudi Arabian children? For by doing so, even Shaykh Abdul Azeez al-Qaari' of Saudi Arabia seems to accept that this hadith is sahih.



CONCLUSION

In Part 1, I prove that in Islam, doll-playing girls are pre-pubescent according to the doll-playing exegesis of Ibn Hajar and Islamic laws and customs.

In Part 2, I prove that using Ibn Hajar’s doll-playing exegesis, Aisha can be proven to be still pre-pubescent when she married and had sex with Muhammad.

In Part 3, I prove that Aisha was still pre-pubescent as late as 6-7 years after her marriage to Muhammad.


Section 2: Proof that Muhammad was a pedophile according to DSM-IV-TR


Even according to the most stringent clinical definition of pedophilia, DSM-IV-TR, Muhammad would be defined as a pedophile. Note that there are other generally accepted definitions of pedophilia that do not confine the definition to pre-pubertal children or require fantasies, sexual urges or behaviors over a certain period of time. However, for the sake of this discussion I will confine my argument to DSM-IV-TR.


Diagnostic criteria for 302.2 Pedophilia
1.Over a period of at least six months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).

2.The person has acted on these sexual urges, or the sexual urges or fantasies caused marked distress or interpersonal difficulty.

3.The person is at least age 16 years and at least 5 years older than the child or children in Criterion A.

Note: Do not include an individual in late adolescence involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12- or 13-year-old.

Does Muhammad meet all these criteria?

1. Yes - Muhammad had sexual relations with a pre-pubescent girl for a prolonged period – likely to be at least 6-7 years.

2. Yes - Muhammad had acted on his sexual urges – as demonstrated by Tabari IX:131 and various Bukhari hadiths (stating consummation at age nine when it has been established that Aisha didn’t reach puberty until she was at least 14 years old).

3. Yes - Muhammad was 57 years old when Aisha was only 9 years old when they first had sex.


Therefore, even according to the strict clinical definition of DSM-IV-TR it can be proven that Muhammad was a pedophile.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 7:35 pm
by SAM

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 9:02 pm
by Hombre
SAM wrote:
Rubbish a la galore.
Hadith itself points out that when Muhammad first time told Abu Bakhr his desire to marry his then 5-year old daughter Ai'isha. Abu Bakhr replied to Muhammad "she is only 5 year old, and too young to marry". We don't even want to think what Abu Bakhar was really thinking about this pervert standing at his door step. Something like "Are you majnun or a pervert?"

The biggest joke is, when a lecturer pointed out that, a 53 year old Muhammad "married" Aisha at age of 6, a Muslim woman stood up and shouted, "you are lying sir - she was 9"

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:28 pm
by panis
SAM wrote:
Image

All these dates are false, the Gregorian calendar was unknown in the Hedjaz and the Muslim calendar did not exist before Omar
Only events after the Hegira are referenced. For example, Muhammad was born in the year of the elephant or in the xxth year after the reign of Khosrow

What is the hadeeth that says that the 54th chapter of the Quran was revealed in 613?

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Wed Dec 07, 2016 10:30 pm
by panis
SAM wrote:

Adnan Ibrahim is a lier