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Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 3:45 pm
by piscohot
SAM wrote:Before Aisha married to Muhammad, she was already been betrothed to another man named Jubair. What is the age of Aisha at that time .. 5 or 6 years?


SAM,

Was Jubair sent by Allah as an example for all mankind to follow?
Was Jubair 50 years old when he and Aisha were betrothed?

The fact that a 50 year old man would see an urge to marry a 6 year old and conveniently bed her 3 years later is just disgusting.

Btw, how did Muhammad know that Aisha had her period?

He went to her house (with the intention of consummating the marriage) while she was playing with her friends and 'allahkazam'...she menstruated?

Or perhaps Abu Bakr told him.."Prophet, my daughter had her menses, come bonk her"?

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 4:40 pm
by manfred
Also, Sam, an engagement is merely an expression of intention to enter into marriage. In the middle ages it was common in many places for parents to enter such arrangements even when the children were very young, purely to cement some other deal mostly related to politics or property.

These types of "engagement" have no sexual connotations at all.

You know that though, you just pretend you don't. Mohammed, we are told, was adamant that Aisha was in fact a virgin when he first had sex with her.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2016 9:20 am
by skynightblaze
SAM wrote:And don't forget... We all knows that Ali Sina was NOT a qualified biblical scholar or possess any scholarly credentials.

There is a hell lot of difference between the person you consider as a scholar and Ali Sina. Ali Sina bases his case upon islamic sources . He is spot on about islam almost all the times. We can verify what he says and he bases himself on logic which any sane person cannot deny. On the other hand your so called scholar is not even honest about using the right sources to make her case. Can you list down the criteria you use to consider someone as a scholar? Your criteria seems to be - You are a scholar as long as you praise islam even if you write rubbish.

SAM wrote:Absolutely, related. Do you think Jubair also aged 6 or 9 years old when betrothed to Aisha. Jubair is one of the enemies of Islam in Mecca and became a companion of Muhammad.I'm still waiting for an answer from you, how old she was at the time betrothed to Jubair. .. 5 or 6 years?

Again I don't see the relevance here unless you want to divert the discussion. Btw if Aisha was 5 to 6 years old when she was engaged to Jubair then this strengthens my case that child marriage were prevalent during those days. We can excuse Jubair because he did not claim to be a prophet. However Muhammad claimed to be God's man and if he does not know what is good and what is bad then he cannot be a prophet.

SAM wrote:I'm not saying the entire ahadith was rejected.

Then why are ahadith mentioning age of Aisha specifically rejected? I guess everyone knows the answer- It makes islam look bad.

SAM wrote:You believe that Muhammad was exemplary Muslims. Muhammad has thousands of companions. Give me a proof that the companions of Muhammad also married with 9 year old girl, just like Aisha.


Umar ibn al-Khattab was the 2nd Rightly Guided Caliph of Islam and married Umm Kulthum, the daughter of Ali ibn Abu Talib (the 4th Caliph), in 637–638 AD while she remained pre-pubescent, aged 10-12 years old (some sources suggest even younger). Umar was approximately 58 years old at the time.

Tarikh Khamees, Volume 2, p. 384 ('Dhikr Umm Kalthum') and Zakhair Al-Aqba, p. 16
"'Umar asked 'Ali for the hand of his daughter, Umm Kulthum in marriage. 'Ali replied that she has not yet attained the age (of maturity). 'Umar replied, 'By Allah, this is not true. You do not want her to marry me. If she is underage, send her to me'. Thus 'Ali gave his daughter Umm Kulthum a dress and asked her to go to 'Umar and tell him that her father wants to know what this dress is for. When she came to Umar and gave him the message, he grabbed her hand and forcibly pulled her towards him. 'Umm Kulthum asked him to leave her hand, which Umar did and said, 'You are a very mannered lady with great morals. Go and tell your father that you are very pretty and you are not what he said of you'. With that 'Ali married Umm Kulthum to 'Umar."

Spoiler! :
The following are some of the actions of the Sahaba (companions):

1. Ali Ibn Abi Talib, may Allah be pleased with him, married his daughter, Um Kulthum to Omar Ibn Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, and she mothered a child before the death of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam). Omar got married to her while she was young before reaching the age of puberty. This is reported by Ibn Saad in 'Al-Tabaqat'.

2. From Urwa Ibn Zubair: that Zubair, may Allah be pleased with him, married his daughter when she was very young. Reported by Saeed Ibn Mansour, in his Sunnah, and Ibn Abi Shaibah, in Al-musannaf, with a Sahih chain of narration.

Al-Shafie said in the book of Al-Um: "Many companions of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) married their daughters while these were still young."
Delaying the marriage of girls in many Muslim countries is something new and contradictory to what Muslims used to do over many centuries.


https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muhammad%27s ... Pedophilia

Wiki islam has quoted from a fatwa. Now I know many fatwas are issues by brain dead fools but the person issuing fatwa is backing his case for child marriage using islamic scriptures.A point to note is that the sources used are not considered as strong as sahih ahadith which are considered as reliable by muslims. However, these sources are not used in isolation. These sources reinforce the position of sahih ahadith on child marriage. i.e weak sources too support stronger ones on this issue making our case even stronger. ALso please refrain from accusing me of distorting truth by quoting wiki islam. If you think wiki islam is lying ,tell me where they went wrong or where they lied.

Now there are also some sahih ahadith which confirm that companions of Muhammad were ok with child marriage. Have a look at the following..

Sahih Muslim 3460
Jabir b. 'Abdullah (Allah be pleased with them) reported: 'Abdullah died and he left (behind him) nine or seven daughters. I married a woman who had been previously married. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to me: Jabir, have you married? I said: Yes. He (again) said: A virgin or one previously married? I said: Messenger of Allah, with one who was previously married, whereupon he said: Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you could sport with her and she could sport with you, or you could amuse with her and she could amuse with you? I said to him: 'Abdullah died (he fell as martyr in Uhud) and left nine or seven daughters behind him; I, therefore, did not approve of the idea that I should bring a (girl) like them, but I preferred to bring a woman who should look after them and teach them good manners, whereupon he (Allah's Messenger) said: May Allah bless you, or he supplicated (for the) good (to be) conferred on me (by Allah).

We can do some deduction from this ahadith. Muhammad wanted Jabir to marry a virgin. Now what did Muhammad mean by a virgin? Its clear from the answer that Jabir gave to muhammad. Jabir said that he did not want to MARRY A GIRL LIKE the daughters of Abdullah who needed to be taken care of and taught good manners. This means Jabir's understanding of the word virgin used by muhammad was a small girl who needs to be taken care of and also taught good manners. I guess even though Jabir did not marry that girl, it gives us an idea that Muhammad and his companions were ok with child marriage.

Here is the very next hadith which sheds more light on the same..

Sahih Muslim 3461
Jabir b. 'Abdullah (Allah be pleased with them) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to me: Jabir, have you married? The rest of the hadith is the same up to (the words):" The woman would look after them and comb them." He (Allah's Messenger), said: You did well. But no mention is made of the subsequent portion.

So Jabir wanted to marry a woman who would comb the hair of little daughters of abdullah and not a virgin. In other words, Jabir did not marry a virgin because she would not be able to comb the hair of little daughters of Abdullah. So what can virgin possibly mean according to Jabir? Its obviously means a girl who cannot even comb her hair or fulfill maternal duties. In other words, it refers to a little girl. In both the ahadith neither Muhammad nor Jabir criticize the practice of child marriage.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 12:34 am
by Hombre
dear skynightblaze
Por pavor amigo. Este chico es meshuganeh :lol:

We already have blazed the sky on this self hating Jew. It is a waste of time quoting from the Quran, or Hadith, to try to insert a grain of wisdom into this self-proclaim "Muslim".

He never read the Quran, and any quote from this book goes right over his head. He is a troll - pure & simple

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 10:49 am
by SAM
skynightblaze wrote:There is a hell lot of difference between the person you consider as a scholar and Ali Sina. Ali Sina bases his case upon islamic sources . He is spot on about islam almost all the times. We can verify what he says and he bases himself on logic which any sane person cannot deny. On the other hand your so called scholar is not even honest about using the right sources to make her case. Can you list down the criteria you use to consider someone as a scholar? Your criteria seems to be - You are a scholar as long as you praise islam even if you write rubbish.
You're right abou Ali Sina. He's a a cowardice, a clown, mentally retarded and a keyboard warrior who hides behind computer monitors when compared with this woman (Muslim Convert). She is a well known and respected scholar and author on Islamic topics. She has written more than 40 books compared to Ali Sina just one book. Understanding Muhammad.

I have read some of his writing and makes me just want to lie sprawled on the floor and also made me laugh for hours. He's not a very good writer. :roflmao:

Again I don't see the relevance here unless you want to divert the discussion.
Don't act stupid and blurr, you and other want to divert pert questions about Aisha maturity and puberty. :yuk:


Btw if Aisha was 5 to 6 years old when she was engaged to Jubair then this strengthens my case that child marriage were prevalent during those days.
Why if ? No guessing..just declare yourself don't know.

We can excuse Jubair because he did not claim to be a prophet.
Who "we"FFI members including you, Islamophobia and Islam haters. Don't divert my question, please answer it.." Do you think Jubair also aged 6 or 9 years old when betrothed to Aisha. How old she was at the time betrothed to Jubair. .. 5 or 6 years?

Another question to you .. Do you think that Ayisha was immature and married early before she could attain maturity.? Did Aisha ever behave like victims of pedophile do?

None of the kafirs women or ladies here, namely Ariel, sum, Fernando, Frankie, Ibn Rushd and others want give an answer. What are the symptoms of female sexual maturation arrival or early signs of maturity sexual, or signal the arrival of puberty. They're runner.

However Muhammad claimed to be God's man and if he does not know what is good and what is bad then he cannot be a prophet.
1.6 billion Muslim don't give damn sh!t..whatever kafir think of him.

Then why are ahadith mentioning age of Aisha specifically rejected? I guess everyone knows the answer- It makes islam look bad.
The source of this information only from Hishām ibn Urwah. And again don't act stupid and blur. This has been refuted again and again. I repeat again and again..Only Quran and Sunnah the source of Islamic teachings NOT ahadiths.

Umar ibn al-Khattab was the 2nd Rightly Guided Caliph of Islam and married Umm Kulthum, the daughter of Ali ibn Abu Talib (the 4th Caliph), in 637–638 AD while she remained pre-pubescent, aged 10-12 years old (some sources suggest even younger). Umar was approximately 58 years old at the time.

Tarikh Khamees, Volume 2, p. 384 ('Dhikr Umm Kalthum') and Zakhair Al-Aqba, p. 16
"'Umar asked 'Ali for the hand of his daughter, Umm Kulthum in marriage. 'Ali replied that she has not yet attained the age (of maturity). 'Umar replied, 'By Allah, this is not true. You do not want her to marry me. If she is underage, send her to me'. Thus 'Ali gave his daughter Umm Kulthum a dress and asked her to go to 'Umar and tell him that her father wants to know what this dress is for. When she came to Umar and gave him the message, he grabbed her hand and forcibly pulled her towards him. 'Umm Kulthum asked him to leave her hand, which Umar did and said, 'You are a very mannered lady with great morals. Go and tell your father that you are very pretty and you are not what he said of you'. With that 'Ali married Umm Kulthum to 'Umar."

Spoiler! :
The following are some of the actions of the Sahaba (companions):

1. Ali Ibn Abi Talib, may Allah be pleased with him, married his daughter, Um Kulthum to Omar Ibn Al-Khattab, may Allah be pleased with him, and she mothered a child before the death of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam). Omar got married to her while she was young before reaching the age of puberty. This is reported by Ibn Saad in 'Al-Tabaqat'.

2. From Urwa Ibn Zubair: that Zubair, may Allah be pleased with him, married his daughter when she was very young. Reported by Saeed Ibn Mansour, in his Sunnah, and Ibn Abi Shaibah, in Al-musannaf, with a Sahih chain of narration.

Al-Shafie said in the book of Al-Um: "Many companions of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi wa Sallam) married their daughters while these were still young."
Delaying the marriage of girls in many Muslim countries is something new and contradictory to what Muslims used to do over many centuries.
Do you think the Shia will recognize this weak hadith. Umar ibn al-Khattab never married the daughter of Ali ibn Abu Talib.

In Kanz al Ummal Volume 7 page 98:

"Umar (ra) proposed to marry Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr, and made the proposal to Ayesha (ra) . Ayesha (ra) replied 'She is too young, but where we will she go without you? Umme Kalthum approached Ayesha (ra) and said 'I have heard that you want to marry me to Umar. He will give me a tough life; I am in need of a young man, who loves this world. If you marry me to Umar then I shall complain before Rasulullah (pbuh) . Ayesha (ra) then summoned Amr bin Aas who said 'I shall deal with the matter'. Amr spoke to Umar, after a general conversation he said 'I hear that you intend on marrying'. Umar (ra) replied 'Yes'. Amr bin Aas asked 'Who?' Umar replied 'Umme Kalthum binte Abu Bakr (ra) '. Amr then said 'She is a child that shall cry for her father every day'. Umar (ra) then said 'Did Ayesha (ra) send you?

Umar ibn al-Khattab married a lady named Um Kulthum but it was daughter of Abu bakr (ra) NOT daughter of Ali.

You as Islam hater talk rubbish Umar ibn al-Khattab can marry his own son-in-law's grand daughter?..

YOU CAN KEEP YOUR HADITHS WITH YOURSELVES.


https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muhammad%27s_Companions_and_Pedophilia

Wiki islam has quoted from a fatwa. Now I know many fatwas are issues by brain dead fools but the person issuing fatwa is backing his case for child marriage using islamic scriptures.A point to note is that the sources used are not considered as strong as sahih ahadith which are considered as reliable by muslims. However, these sources are not used in isolation. These sources reinforce the position of sahih ahadith on child marriage. i.e weak sources too support stronger ones on this issue making our case even stronger. ALso please refrain from accusing me of distorting truth by quoting wiki islam. If you think wiki islam is lying ,tell me where they went wrong or where they lied.
You can use wikiislam as the main source. Muslims have more primary source of what you have. Muslims do not need wikiislam.

Now there are also some sahih ahadith which confirm that companions of Muhammad were ok with child marriage. Have a look at the following..

Sahih Muslim 3460
Jabir b. 'Abdullah (Allah be pleased with them) reported: 'Abdullah died and he left (behind him) nine or seven daughters. I married a woman who had been previously married. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to me: Jabir, have you married? I said: Yes. He (again) said: A virgin or one previously married? I said: Messenger of Allah, with one who was previously married, whereupon he said: Why didn't you marry a young girl so that you could sport with her and she could sport with you, or you could amuse with her and she could amuse with you? I said to him: 'Abdullah died (he fell as martyr in Uhud) and left nine or seven daughters behind him; I, therefore, did not approve of the idea that I should bring a (girl) like them, but I preferred to bring a woman who should look after them and teach them good manners, whereupon he (Allah's Messenger) said: May Allah bless you, or he supplicated (for the) good (to be) conferred on me (by Allah).

We can do some deduction from this ahadith. Muhammad wanted Jabir to marry a virgin. Now what did Muhammad mean by a virgin? Its clear from the answer that Jabir gave to muhammad. Jabir said that he did not want to MARRY A GIRL LIKE the daughters of Abdullah who needed to be taken care of and taught good manners. This means Jabir's understanding of the word virgin used by muhammad was a small girl who needs to be taken care of and also taught good manners. I guess even though Jabir did not marry that girl, it gives us an idea that Muhammad and his companions were ok with child marriage.

Here is the very next hadith which sheds more light on the same..

Sahih Muslim 3461
Jabir b. 'Abdullah (Allah be pleased with them) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said to me: Jabir, have you married? The rest of the hadith is the same up to (the words):" The woman would look after them and comb them." He (Allah's Messenger), said: You did well. But no mention is made of the subsequent portion.

So Jabir wanted to marry a woman who would comb the hair of little daughters of abdullah and not a virgin. In other words, Jabir did not marry a virgin because she would not be able to comb the hair of little daughters of Abdullah. So what can virgin possibly mean according to Jabir? Its obviously means a girl who cannot even comb her hair or fulfill maternal duties. In other words, it refers to a little girl. In both the ahadith neither Muhammad nor Jabir criticize the practice of child marriage.
Your argument is weak. It's just a suggestion of Muhammad.
Hadith no: 509
Narrated: Jabir bin Abdullah

I was accompanying the Prophet (SAW) on a journey and was riding a slow camel that was lagging behind the others. The Prophet (SAW) passed by me and asked, "Who is this?" I replied, "Jabir bin Abdullah." He asked, "What is the matter, (why are you late)?" I replied, "I am riding a slow camel." He asked, "Do you have a stick?" I replied in the affirmative. He said, "Give it to me." When I gave it to him, he beat the camel and rebuked it. Then that camel surpassed the others thenceforth. The Prophet (SAW) said, "Sell it to me." I replied, "It is (a gift) for you, O Allah's Apostle (SAW)." He said, "Sell it to me. I have bought it for four Dinars (gold pieces) and you can keep on riding it till Medina." When we approached Medina, I started going (towards my house). The Prophet (SAW) said, "Where are you going?" I Sad, "I have married a widow." He said, "Why have you not married a virgin to fondle with each other?" I said, "My father died and left daughters, so I decided to marry a widow (an experienced woman) (to look after them)." He said, "Well done." When we reached Medina, Allah's Apostle (SAW) said, "O Bilal, pay him (the price of the camel) and give him extra money." Bilal gave me four Dinars and one Qirat extra. (A sub-narrator said): Jabir added, "The extra Qirat of Allah's Apostle (SAW) never parted from me." The Qirat was always in Jabir bin Abdullah's purse.

Jabir bin Abdullah didn't married young virgin girl.

You still failed to give me a proof that the companions of Muhammad also married with 9 year old girl, just like Aisha.

Try again to disprove Islam....SNB :lol:

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Sun Jul 03, 2016 3:18 pm
by piscohot
SAM wrote:
However Muhammad claimed to be God's man and if he does not know what is good and what is bad then he cannot be a prophet.
1.6 billion Muslim don't give damn sh!t..whatever kafir think of him.


surprisingly, quite a number of muslims i spoke to, did not know their prophet actually bonked a nine year old girl when he was in his fifties.
The look of surprise on their faces were quite priceless.
They don't give a sh!t because they have been fed with sh!t.

:D

SAM wrote:You still failed to give me a proof that the companions of Muhammad also married with 9 year old girl, just like Aisha.



It is well known in the hadiths that Abu Bakr and Umar asked Muhammad for the hand of his daughter, Fatima.
Muhammad rejected the request on account of their huge age gaps between them and his daughter. Fatima at that time was like 15? while Abu Bakr was already in his 50s and Umar in his 40s.

Yet, Muhammad had no problem marrying a 6 year old girl when he was in his 50s.

:clap:

Nice job this Muhammad. Marrying the man's 6 year old daughter then rejecting the man's proposal to marry fatima on account of age difference.

SAM, why are you asking for proof that companions of Muhammad also married 9 year olds?
Muhammad said no because he deemed them too old to be marrying young girls.
Of course this does not apply to the exalted example for mankind- Muhammad.

:whistling:

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:32 am
by skynightblaze
SAM wrote:You're right abou Ali Sina. He's a a cowardice, a clown, mentally retarded and a keyboard warrior who hides behind computer monitors when compared with this woman (Muslim Convert).


This is not a wrestling competition where people need to meet face to face. He can hide behind a computer and safely disprove islam. Infact I see that as a smart strategy. You disprove islam as well as roam around safely in real life.

SAM wrote: She is a well known and respected scholar and author on Islamic topics. She has written more than 40 books compared to Ali Sina just one book. Understanding Muhammad.


Quality of writing and NOT QUANTITY decides who is a scholar and who is not. Even she wrote 100 more books praising islam, its not going to make her look scholarly unless she presents arguments deserving merit. First she likes arguments of Zakir Naik. I guess that is good enough to reject her. Give me one good argument made by Zakir Naik. They are horrible to be precise.Secondly she is not honest about the sources which she uses.

SAM wrote:I have read some of his writing and makes me just want to lie sprawled on the floor and also made me laugh for hours. He's not a very good writer. :roflmao:

I recommend that you attend some course on logic. There is clear cut deficiency. Also I feel that you calling someone as insensible is actually a best compliment that he/she can get. That way they can be sure they are making sense. I am in full agreement with Hombre about his assessment about you.

SAM wrote: Don't act stupid and blurr, you and other want to divert pert questions about Aisha maturity and puberty. :yuk:


I aint debating Pert. I guess Pert already got his answer. So stick to the topic that we are discussing.

SAM wrote:
No guessing..just declare yourself don't know.
We can excuse Jubair because he did not claim to be a prophet.
Who "we"FFI members including you, Islamophobia and Islam haters. Don't divert my question, please answer it.." Do you think Jubair also aged 6 or 9 years old when betrothed to Aisha. How old she was at the time betrothed to Jubair. .. 5 or 6 years?


Yes she was somewhere between 5 and 6. Happy? Btw yes I hate islam and I dont see any reason why anyone would want to love it unless you are emotionally attached to it and desperate enough to make sense of islam.

SAM wrote:
Another question to you .. Do you think that Ayisha was immature and married early before she could attain maturity.? Did Aisha ever behave like victims of pedophile do?

Yes Aisha was mentally as well as physically immature. She had her first period when she was atleast 15 to 16 years (This can be proven from sahih ahadith). Mind you getting the first period does not mean the female is physically mature for sex.

Victims of paedophilia show intense stress and negative emotions. Aisha was jealous about Muhammad bonking Maria. She therefore conspired with other wives against him. She also used to get jealous when Muhammad made a mention of Khadija. Further Aisha went against directives of muhammad that muslims should not fight amongst themselves. She led a campaign which resulted into death of countless muslims.

Now one might argue that history has examples where people have done all these things without being sexually abused at early age so its not a concrete proof of Aisha being abused. However , it also cannot be concretely proven that these actions exhibited by Aisha were not due to abuse. In such a case we would need medical examination of Aisha but Aisha is long dead. So we can't draw any conclusion. Plus its possible that Aisha displayed some symptoms of child abuse which were never recorded because ahadith collectors did not feel that as much important. We however have a yardstick of medical science which tells us that having sex with under age kids is not desirable to mental as well as physical health of patients. Aisha wont be an exception to what medical science says.

SAM wrote:
None of the kafirs women or ladies here, namely Ariel, sum, Fernando, Frankie, Ibn Rushd and others want give an answer. What are the symptoms of female sexual maturation arrival or early signs of maturity sexual, or signal the arrival of puberty. They're runner.


Only Ariel and Ibn Rushd are ladies here. Others are men. Btw why do you need them to tell this to you? Can't you just google?

Sam wrote:1.6 billion Muslim don't give damn sh!t..whatever kafir think of him.


Truth does not change even an iota even if you ignore what kafirs say. The truth is - He was a moron who raped Aisha and destroyed her childhood. He would be locked in jail with toughest criminals on planet had he done this today. Btw most of the muslims do not give sh!t to what you believe rather than what I say. Most of them would accept sahih ahadith as authority.

SAM wrote:
The source of this information only from Hishām ibn Urwah. And again don't act stupid and blur. This has been refuted again and again. I repeat again and again..Only Quran and Sunnah the source of Islamic teachings NOT ahadiths.


Probably you should not act stupid. The source is not just Hisham. It has been refuted none other than your fellow muslims.

Gf Haddad wrote:Try more than eleven authorities among the Tabi`in that reported it directly from `A'isha, not counting the other major Companions that reported the same, nor other major Successors that reported it from other than `A'isha.


Btw do you realize that child marriage is a part of sunnah and not just ahadith? Countless muslims followed this practice for generations and even today its followed. Sahih ahadith support this. You also asked somewhere if Shia would believe the sources that I quoted. The first question is - Why are you worried about shias? Speak for yourself. You are not a shia muslim. Anyway shia sources also mention this..Check the spoiler below. It has quotes from the same link that I quoted before..

Spoiler! :
[Regarding] Umm Khulthum, who is the daughter of Ameer al-Mu’mineen Ali, Umar proposed to Ali for her hand in marriage during his [Umar’s] caliphate, and at first Ali refused him. So then Umar said what he said, and did what he did [2]

The original Arabic text is: ام كلثوم هذه هى بنت امير المؤمنين عليه السلام قد خطبها اليه عمر في زمن خلافته فرده اولا فقال عمر ماقال وفعل مافعل
Al-Shia.com states the following in a commentary to the hadith in Furu al-Kafi:

The Shi'ite scholar Abul Qasim al-Kufi (died 352 AH) also believed that it was Umm Kulthum bint Ali who married Umar, but stated that:
When Umar asked for the hand of Umm Kulthum, Ali thought to himself: "If I say no, that thing would come to pass which Rasul-Allah tried to prevent, and for which reason he asked me to exercise patience, which is that people will fall into apostacy". "Thus, it was better to hand over Umm Kulthum to him"
al-Istighathah fi Bida' ath-Thalathah, p.90

As for Umm Kulthoom, she is the one whom Umar ibn al-Khattab married. Our associates say that he (Ali) only married her to him after putting up a lot of resistance, severe refusals and finding excuses. Ultimately he was forced by circumstances to turn her matter over to Abbas ibn ‘Abd al-Muttalib who married her off.
I‘lam al-Wara bi-A‘lam al-Huda - Shaykh Tabarsi


Other shia scholars who believe in this marriage are :
Agha al-Tahrani [4]
Al-Hurr Al-'Amily [5]
Al-Muhaqqiq al-Ardabili [6]
Sheikh Abu Jaafar al-Tusi [7]
Fadil al-Hindi [8]
Mohamad Soleiman-Peneh

So we see that both sunni sources (my previous post) as well shia sources contain examples of child marriage by companions and also countless muslims practicing this for generations. In such a case how its not a part of sunnah??

Sam wrote:Umar ibn al-Khattab married a lady named Um Kulthum but it was daughter of Abu bakr (ra) NOT daughter of Ali.


Proofs please. Don't speak crap unless you got evidence.

Sam wrote:You as Islam hater talk rubbish Umar ibn al-Khattab can marry his own son-in-law's grand daughter?..

YOU CAN KEEP YOUR HADITHS WITH YOURSELVES.


Provide proofs for your claims. Also tells us how the sources that you used are authentic.BTw child marriage references are not just found in ahadith but this practice is also a part of sunnah.

Sam wrote:You can use wikiislam as the main source. Muslims have more primary source of what you have. Muslims do not need wikiislam.


Wiki islam is not a source for us. We do not believe Wiki islam just because wiki islam says so. Wiki islam quotes islamic sources to make their case and hence we believe in it. Please try and understand this if you can. Also you write...

Sam wrote:Your argument is weak. It's just a suggestion of Muhammad.


:lol: Suggesting for child marriage does not mean anything to you?

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Wed Jul 06, 2016 3:33 am
by skynightblaze
Hombre wrote:dear skynightblaze
Por pavor amigo. Este chico es meshuganeh :lol:

We already have blazed the sky on this self hating Jew. It is a waste of time quoting from the Quran, or Hadith, to try to insert a grain of wisdom into this self-proclaim "Muslim".

He never read the Quran, and any quote from this book goes right over his head. He is a troll - pure & simple


Yes I agree one hundred percent with your assessment of him. Its really a waste of time to argue with this troll. However, some of his arguments which he copy pasted from other sites required a response least he says no one could answer him. Its all in writing.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 5:06 pm
by wajar
SAM wrote:
pert wrote:I've heard the argument that the Bukhari Hadith has been tampered with and is not legititmate and that Asmaa's age proves that Aisha was a teenager when she was married. What are your views?

And what say ye ?

muhamad died when asia is 18 years old.
And they already married for 9 years,
it is as simple as that .....

moslem just can not use their brain,
as long as they talk about their adultary prophet, muhammad .....

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Thu Jul 07, 2016 7:07 pm
by Hombre
Our self hating-Jew SAM laments Ali Sina is cowered to appear in public to make his case against Islam.

He cant's, because unlike other religions, Islam is too barbaric and backward to stand any form of criticism. He will be killed by Barbaric Muslim the moment he shows his face.

SAMI, we all know you are a non-Muslim troll, with no clue about Islam or the Quran. Next time when you reply, place your sources on the bottom of the message so we can read the whole message not just snippet.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:11 am
by SAM
Hombre wrote:Our self hating-Jew SAM laments Ali Sina is cowered to appear in public to make his case against Islam.

He cant's, because unlike other religions, Islam is too barbaric and backward to stand any form of criticism. He will be killed by Barbaric Muslim the moment he shows his face.

SAMI, we all know you are a non-Muslim troll, with no clue about Islam or the Quran. Next time when you reply, place your sources on the bottom of the message so we can read the whole message not just snippet.
Abu Ali al-Hussain Ibn Abdallah Ibn Sina was a Persian physician and philosopher. FAKE Ali Sina also Iranian. Some of Iranians hate Arabs and Islam. He was afraid of me and forbade me to participate in his blog (alisina.org.) He's not a Muslim by birth or raised as Muslim.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:29 am
by SAM
Image

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:32 am
by manfred
Actually SAM, not proven. The Asma argument was debunked at the start of the thread. You seem to be a bit slow these days.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:11 am
by SAM
manfred wrote:Actually SAM, not proven. The Asma argument was debunked at the start of the thread. You seem to be a bit slow these days.
Most Muslims don't really care about Aisha married Muhammad. They care more about Islamic law and how to be good Muslims.

I don't see thousands of Muslims have left Islam because Muhammad married Aisha. In fact, more and more women non-Muslims have converted to Islam.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:52 am
by manfred
Most Muslims don't really care about Aisha married Muhammad. They care more about Islamic law and how to be good Muslims.


Yes, in a way you are quite right. Muslims don't see this as a problem, because to them, by definition, ANYTHING Mohammed did or said served as an example to them. So they rarely get to to the point of actually saying to themselves, hang on a minute, there is something wrong here....

A "good Muslim" is someone who doe not ask too many questions and follows every detail of Mohammed's life, down to how to wash your behind, what foot to use to get up with or enter the toilet with, some even dye their beards with henna.

So are you surprised that people with this way of thinking cannot see the issue around Mohammed and Aisha?

It even goes as far as some Muslims imitating this kind of "marriage" to this day, specially in Arab countries, but also at times in Pakistan and Bangladesh.

Malaysians and Indonesians have a rather different, equally odd way to deal with problematic things Mohammed did or said. They make a huge effort to never find out.

I don't see thousands of Muslims have left Islam because Muhammad married Aisha.


Indeed you don't. That is because Muslims don't think that way. To them, whatever Mohammed did, was a perfect example.

However, of you ask people who have actually left Islam, you get this issue mentioned quite often. It indicates something about the personality of Mohammed.

In fact, more and more women non-Muslims have converted to Islam.


"More and More" than when and since when? And Where? Figures and sources are needed here. In fact conversions to Islam are quite uncommon and they do not contribute in any significant way to the growth of Islam. In fact, there are more people leaving Islam than converting to it, and it's growth is based only on demographic factors.

Also, SAM, number of converts or adherents do not prove anything one way or the other about Mohammed, do they?

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 8:29 pm
by sum
No-one has given a link to Hector`s "definitive article" on the age of Aisha when Muhammad first had sex with her.

Is there a reason for this?

sum

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 9:50 pm
by manfred
Yes. I cannot find it.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:18 pm
by sum
Hello manfred

I have the link but it can not be opened - http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10197

However, I have the full account of Hector`s article which is ten pages long. Should I post this in sections?

sum

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Mon Jul 11, 2016 10:33 pm
by manfred
Wow, that would be excellent... resource section?

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Tue Jul 12, 2016 12:51 am
by Hombre
SAM wrote:Abu Ali al-Hussain Ibn Abdallah Ibn Sina was a Persian physician and philosopher. FAKE Ali Sina also Iranian. Some of Iranians hate Arabs and Islam. He was afraid of me and forbade me to participate in his blog (alisina.org.) He's not a Muslim by birth or raised as Muslim.
Ali Sina is his screen Name, not the real one. Again because of fear for his safety.

If Ali forbade you, it is because you were meshugeneh and made no sense to him with your replies. Or, he realized that you are a self-hating Jew, and not worth his time.

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