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Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 10:58 pm
by idesigner1
Sam I am a man!!

Even a girl living under a rock or in cave would have lot more understanding than Ayesh, a nine year old living in a tent.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:08 pm
by SAM
idesigner1 wrote:Sam I am a man!!

Even a girl living under a rock or in cave would have lot more understanding than Ayesh, a nine year old living in a tent.
pert question here is whether or not that Aisha maturity or puberty. Please answer his question.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:24 pm
by Fernando
SAM wrote:What are the symptoms of female sexual maturation arrival or early signs of maturity sexual, or signal the arrival of puberty.
Oh dear SAM, you still don't understand. It's physically possible for girls to become pregnant long before they are physically and mentally equipped to have children. Read the news about the poor children in Muslim countries who, raped by their much older husbands, die in childbirth or suffer horrific injuries.
Like it or not, the period between fertility and maturity is a consequence of the way the human race has evolved.
And why does it happen that this isn't respected and the girls allowed to grow up first? Because they're considered to be possessions and have no say in the matter. :musilmah:

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Fri Jun 24, 2016 11:29 pm
by manfred
pert question here is whether or not that Aisha maturity or puberty.


No, that is another one of your smoke and mirror tricks. The question was how old Aisha was when Mohammed had sex with for the first time.

The answer to that question, according to her own testimony and that of several others, is 9 years old.

Was she "mature" at the age of 9? Ridiculous idea.
Did she undergo puberty at that age? Unlikely, and in any case completely irrelevant.

The particular question pert raised was about the Asma argument, which has been debunked. See above.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:01 am
by Hombre
SAM wrote:So your question here is whether or not that Aisha maturity or puberty. :lol:
No SAMuel, the real question is, are you a Muslim?. The more are read your comments, the more I am convinced you are a self hating Jew & a troll . Real Muslim never talk about Aisha vagina - you do.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:05 am
by Hombre
SAM wrote:
idesigner1 wrote:Sam I am a man!!

Even a girl living under a rock or in cave would have lot more understanding than Ayesh, a nine year old living in a tent.
pert question here is whether or not that Aisha maturity or puberty. Please answer his question.
And pert question here is YOUR maturity or puberty. Please answer his question. :lol: :yummy:

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 12:16 am
by SAM
Fernando wrote:
SAM wrote:What are the symptoms of female sexual maturation arrival or early signs of maturity sexual, or signal the arrival of puberty.
Oh dear SAM, you still don't understand. It's physically possible for girls to become pregnant long before they are physically and mentally equipped to have children. Read the news about the poor children in Muslim countries who, raped by their much older husbands, die in childbirth or suffer horrific injuries.
Like it or not, the period between fertility and maturity is a consequence of the way the human race has evolved.
And why does it happen that this isn't respected and the girls allowed to grow up first? Because they're considered to be possessions and have no say in the matter. :musilmah:
Irrelevant answer to pert question..he asking about Aisha... :lol:

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:38 am
by skynightblaze
SAM wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:
SAM wrote:Shia never claim any Hadith book is 1000% authentic. And also Sunnis do not say that every word in ahadith collected by Bukhari, Muslim, and others are 1000% correct.


Yes same logic applies to sources mentioning age of Asma in relation to Aisha.So tell me how are you sure that these sources are correct when they mention Asma as 10 years older than Aisha? If you want to argue then you can make a case in the following way :
Go to ask Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood, a leading British Muslim scholar or other Islamic scholars. http://www.ilovezakirnaik.com/madamayeshah/index.htm


The link name says it all. This scholar of yours loves Zakir Naik :lol: . I got the idea on the kind of scholar he must be :D Anyway, the arguments mentioned in the link have been debunked probably a decade ago and its nothing new. Here is a link that debunks these arguments..

http://www.muslimhope.com/AishaNine.htm

Btw the person you quoted uses sunni sources to make his points. That's acceptable to you ? Just below you are criticizing sunni doctrine and saying ahadith cannot be trusted. If that is the case how can you trust the reports that say Asma was 10 years older than Aisha? They too come from Sunni sources. Buddy , it seems to me that you are from a different planet who has zero connection with reasoning. If you are saying sunni sources are unreliable then you cannot again go back to sunni sources to find something which confirms your view unless you justify yourself with proper rationale.

SAM wrote:Authentic hadiths can be distorted, manipulated, modified, altered and exaggerated so in accordance with the doctrines and beliefs of Sunni, Shia, Ahmadiyah, Qadiani, Naqsabandiyah etc and there is also a tradition Isra'iliyat. Based on this, then most of the hadith above can not be used as evidence.


Then your scholar is also a junk because he uses sunni sources to make a case. If you use a sunni source then you have no option but to give preference to Bukhari and sahih muslim in comparison to other ahadith/tafsir sources. This argument alone debunks all the 10 odd arguments he makes. Also , if sunnis corrupted their scriptures, what is the guarantee that they did not corrupt the quran? If someone could fabricate ahadith on such a large scale i.e they could fool a billion muslims and get away with their lies then corrupting quran will be a piece of cake for such people. If someone really wanted to corrupt teachings of islam then the first target would actually be quran because that's the main book. The thought of corruption of other books will come later.

Also I want to ask you a simple question here. Quran says that there is an example in muhammad for entire mankind. Where is that example? Its not in the quran. If you say that only quran needs to be followed then is not the quran incomplete?

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:40 pm
by SAM
skynightblaze wrote:The link name says it all. This scholar of yours loves Zakir Naik :lol: . I got the idea on the kind of scholar he must be :D
Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood, a leading British Muslim scholar is a lady not a man.
Anyway, the arguments mentioned in the link have been debunked probably a decade ago and its nothing new. Here is a link that debunks these arguments..

http://www.muslimhope.com/AishaNine.htm
Before Aisha married to Muhammad, she was already been betrothed to another man named Jubair. What is the age of Aisha at that time .. 5 or 6 years?

Btw the person you quoted uses sunni sources to make his points. That's acceptable to you ? Just below you are criticizing sunni doctrine and saying ahadith cannot be trusted. If that is the case how can you trust the reports that say Asma was 10 years older than Aisha? They too come from Sunni sources. Buddy , it seems to me that you are from a different planet who has zero connection with reasoning. If you are saying sunni sources are unreliable then you cannot again go back to sunni sources to find something which confirms your view unless you justify yourself with proper rationale.

SAM wrote:Authentic hadiths can be distorted, manipulated, modified, altered and exaggerated so in accordance with the doctrines and beliefs of Sunni, Shia, Ahmadiyah, Qadiani, Naqsabandiyah etc and there is also a tradition Isra'iliyat. Based on this, then most of the hadith above can not be used as evidence.


Then your scholar is also a junk because he uses sunni sources to make a case. If you use a sunni source then you have no option but to give preference to Bukhari and sahih muslim in comparison to other ahadith/tafsir sources. This argument alone debunks all the 10 odd arguments he makes. Also , if sunnis corrupted their scriptures, what is the guarantee that they did not corrupt the quran? If someone could fabricate ahadith on such a large scale i.e they could fool a billion muslims and get away with their lies then corrupting quran will be a piece of cake for such people. If someone really wanted to corrupt teachings of islam then the first target would actually be quran because that's the main book. The thought of corruption of other books will come later.
Muslims are obliged to follow the Quran and the Sunnah, not hadith. All the hadith collections that you have today, and which are regarded by the hadith scholars as authentic, were written two centuries after the death of Muhammad and his companions.

Also I want to ask you a simple question here. Quran says that there is an example in muhammad for entire mankind. Where is that example? Its not in the quran. If you say that only quran needs to be followed then is not the quran incomplete?
Follow the Sunnah of the Prophet Muhammad.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 4:48 pm
by pert
The person I was arguing with claimed she had reached puberty at 9 and in 7th century arabia a 9 year old girl was biologically a grown woman. I asked them to provide a source for this claim, which they have so far not provided.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 5:38 pm
by manfred
Again, pert, it is not for you to prove the opposite, but for him to provide the evidence, so good for you, you requested a source. It is unusual for a girl that you to go through puberty, and what is the evidences that it is true? You will get a circular argument as a reply: Mohammed had sex with her. That "proves" she reached puberty. (not to mention the ridiculous idea that puberty = maturity. Only people who forgotten their youth and never met a teenager could possibly suggest that, or a Muslim male, for whom a female is not really fully human, just a sort of sex toy.)

And the point about puberty is in itself a red herring. Since when is puberty a criteria for "being a woman"? What about emotional and mental maturity? Ability to consent?

As to people GENERALLY reaching puberty that early, there is no evidence for that at all. In fact, what we do know suggests the opposite: the onset of puberty in girls is directly correlated to nutrition and weight. At times when nutrition was poor and weights lower, puberty on average started later.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Sat Jun 25, 2016 10:00 pm
by Fernando
SAM wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:The link name says it all. This scholar of yours loves Zakir Naik :lol: . I got the idea on the kind of scholar he must be :D
Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood, a leading British Muslim scholar is a lady not a man.
Never mind - idesigner1 is a leading contributor to this forum, and you thought he was a woman. :)
http://www.muslimhope.com/AishaNine.htm
Before Aisha married to Muhammad, she was already been betrothed to another man named Jubair. What is the age of Aisha at that time .. 5 or 6 years?
And what has that got to do with the price of fish? Well, I suppose it tends to confirm that she was about that age when Mohammed took her from her betrothed.
SAM wrote:Muslims are obliged to follow the Quran and the Sunnah, not hadith. All the hadith collections that you have today, and which are regarded by the hadith scholars as authentic, were written two centuries after the death of Muhammad and his companions.
More evidence that you are a Koranist. Which makes me think: if Hombre is right, you must be a Koran-only Jew! Probably the only specimen in the whole world! :lol:

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 11:18 am
by frankie
Sam:

Muslims are obliged to follow the Quran and the Sunnah, not hadith. All the hadith collections that you have today, and which are regarded by the hadith scholars as authentic, were written two centuries after the death of Muhammad and his companions.


Like all Muslims you are a failure when it comes to logic.

The Sunnah is derived from the ahadiths,without the ahadiths there can be no Sunnah.

Muslims cannot know how to emulate their prophet without reading from the sources that tell them how to do it, the ahadiths are these sources, the Quran is not.

Muslim scholarship has already categorised the ahadiths into the most authentic, which in turn allows Muslims to read them with confidence, knowing that they will be able to correctly obey their god the way it intends.

If Muslims cannot trust their own sources, who can they trust?

The question of Aisha's maturity is well documented throughout the authentic ahadiths,they confirm that she was six when she was betrothed to Mohammed, and nine when he had sex with her, which gives Muslim men the authority to take children from the age of nine as their "wives".

Mohammed's example in effect is a paedophilia's charter.

Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). (Sahih Bukhari 7.62.88)

Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) (Sahih Bukhari 8.73.151)

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2016 7:01 pm
by Hombre
frankie wrote:Like all Muslims you are a failure when it comes to logic.
He is no real Muslim. rather a self-hating Jew whom masquerades as a Muslim. The very reason he focuses his hatred towards Jews far more then others.

Just compare his writing style and level of conversation and that of Mughal for example.,

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:40 am
by skynightblaze
SAM wrote:
skynightblaze wrote:The link name says it all. This scholar of yours loves Zakir Naik :lol: . I got the idea on the kind of scholar he must be :D
Ruqaiyyah Waris Maqsood, a leading British Muslim scholar is a lady not a man.


My opinion of that scholar still stays the same. The point is a person who loves Zakir Naik's arguments cannot be a scholar. Also, the person uses lesser reliable sources to argue against more reliable sources so she should not be surprised if she finds a discrepancy.

SAM wrote:
Anyway, the arguments mentioned in the link have been debunked probably a decade ago and its nothing new. Here is a link that debunks these arguments..

http://www.muslimhope.com/AishaNine.htm
Before Aisha married to Muhammad, she was already been betrothed to another man named Jubair. What is the age of Aisha at that time .. 5 or 6 years?


How is that relevant to what we are discussing?

Sam wrote:Muslims are obliged to follow the Quran and the Sunnah, not hadith. All the hadith collections that you have today, and which are regarded by the hadith scholars as authentic, were written two centuries after the death of Muhammad and his companions.


Ahadith is one of the sources of sunnah. So, you shouldn't be rejecting the entire ahadith in that case. The other source of sunnah can be the knowledge that has been passed down from one generation to other. The practice of child marriage is nothing new in muslim countries. How are you sure that child marriage is not a part of sunnah?

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:55 am
by SAM
frankie wrote:
Like all Muslims you are a failure when it comes to logic.

The Sunnah is derived from the ahadiths,without the ahadiths there can be no Sunnah.

Muslims cannot know how to emulate their prophet without reading from the sources that tell them how to do it, the ahadiths are these sources, the Quran is not.
:lotpot:

Muslim scholarship has already categorised the ahadiths into the most authentic, which in turn allows Muslims to read them with confidence, knowing that they will be able to correctly obey their god the way it intends.

If Muslims cannot trust their own sources, who can they trust?
Allah alone.

The question of Aisha's maturity is well documented throughout the authentic ahadiths,they confirm that she was six when she was betrothed to Mohammed, and nine when he had sex with her, which gives Muslim men the authority to take children from the age of nine as their "wives".

Mohammed's example in effect is a paedophilia's charter.

Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). (Sahih Bukhari 7.62.88)

Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) (Sahih Bukhari 8.73.151)
Please answer my question... Before Aisha married to Muhammad, she was already been betrothed to another man named Jubair. What is the age of Aisha at that time .. 5 or 6 years?

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 5:50 am
by SAM
skynightblaze wrote:
My opinion of that scholar still stays the same. The point is a person who loves Zakir Naik's arguments cannot be a scholar. Also, the person uses lesser reliable sources to argue against more reliable sources so she should not be surprised if she finds a discrepancy.
And don't forget... We all knows that Ali Sina was NOT a qualified biblical scholar or possess any scholarly credentials.

skynightblaze wrote:
SAM wrote:Before Aisha married to Muhammad, she was already been betrothed to another man named Jubair. What is the age of Aisha at that time .. 5 or 6 years?


How is that relevant to what we are discussing?
Absolutely, related. Do you think Jubair also aged 6 or 9 years old when betrothed to Aisha. Jubair is one of the enemies of Islam in Mecca and became a companion of Muhammad.

I'm still waiting for an answer from you, how old she was at the time betrothed to Jubair. .. 5 or 6 years?

skynightblaze wrote:
Sam wrote:Muslims are obliged to follow the Quran and the Sunnah, not hadith. All the hadith collections that you have today, and which are regarded by the hadith scholars as authentic, were written two centuries after the death of Muhammad and his companions.


Ahadith is one of the sources of sunnah. So, you shouldn't be rejecting the entire ahadith in that case.
I'm not saying the entire ahadith was rejected.

The other source of sunnah can be the knowledge that has been passed down from one generation to other.
The Sunnah is the second source of Islamic teachings and beliefs which must be associated with al-Quran. Al-Quran and Sunnah complement each other, without the Sunnah, Islam is not complete, likewise without the Quran, Islam is incomplete, not without sources of Hadith in Islam is not complete. Tradition is not the Firman Allah (words of Allah).

The practice of child marriage is nothing new in muslim countries. How are you sure that child marriage is not a part of sunnah?
Marriage is an important act of Sunnah in Islam, and disapproved desire to remain celibate.

You believe that Muhammad was exemplary Muslims. Muhammad has thousands of companions. Give me a proof that the companions of Muhammad also married with 9 year old girl, just like Aisha.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 2:57 pm
by frankie
Sam:
The Sahih ahadiths relate Aisha was six when betrothed to Mohammed and nine when she had sex with him.

It is totally irrelevant then whether Aisha was betrothed to another person, knowing this makes not the slightest difference.

And in any case, you have not even provided evidence for this alleged betrothal from Islamic sources.

Mohammed was sexually aroused by a child, this tells you either Mohammed was thinking only of himself, or Allah approved of a 53 year old man having sex with a child of nine, thereby eternally legitimising sex with children, which is still happening throughout the Muslim world today.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 3:43 pm
by frankie
Sam:
The Sahih ahadiths relate Aisha was six when betrothed to Mohammed and nine when she had sex with him.

It is totally irrelevant then whether Aisha was betrothed to another person, knowing this makes not the slightest difference.
Before Aisha married to Muhammad, she was already been betrothed to another man named Jubair


And in any case, you have not even provided evidence for this alleged betrothal from Islamic sources.

Mohammed was sexually aroused by a child, this tells you either Mohammed was thinking only of himself, or Allah approved of a 53 year old man having sex with a child of nine, thereby eternally legitimising sex with children, which is still happening throughout the Muslim world today.

Re: Aisha's Maturity

PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2016 8:05 pm
by Hombre
SAM wrote:Allah alone.
You mean. אלוהים בלבד