Muhammeds Grave

[alemcodon]

he said before he died, he asks his followers to go and visit his grave
at least once in their lives and give him salam (ie hello).

Every year in hajj 2 million do just that and god knows how many more
millions during the rest of the year.

Is there any grave on earth that has that many visitors?

[manfred]

No, probably there isn't. Despite that, at one point the Saudis wanted to get rid of it. Sadly I am not allowed to go, so I cannot bring him some chorizo and red wine and a baguette as a present....

But seriously, thank you for mentioning that. It is a reminder how Mohammed is seen by Muslims, and hence explains quite well why it is so hard to get a Muslim to see that he really cannot be called by any stretch of imagination an "example for mankind". Although few Muslims would admit it, in Islam "Allah" and "Mohammed" are virtually interchangeable. How else could "insulting the prophet" be "blasphemy"? ("THE" prophet, of course only, not just any of them...)

[alemcodon]

if he wasn't a good example, he wouldn't have over a billion followers in the present,
and may millions more from the past.

the problem isn't the muslims, its people like you who don't know his true teachings,
and the examples he set, because on these sort of forums you wont hear that,
because its not in their interest.

You guys just want to delve into the same 5 ambiguous historical facts repeatedly.
BTW im interested to know if any has met mr Ali Imaginary Sina in the flesh because
i always thought he was a fictional character.

[manfred]

the problem isn't the muslims, its people like you who don't know his true teachings,
and the examples he set, because on these sort of forums you wont hear that,
because its not in their interest.

Well, here is your chance to sort it out... tell us all about Mohammed's true teachings. Start with something you are sure we got wrong so that we can look at it together.

BTW im interested to know if any has met mr Ali Imaginary Sina in the flesh because
i always thought he was a fictional character.

For obvious reasons it not his real name. But yes, it is a real person, I email with him quite regularly, and I have also got his skype. I know where he lives, and I think if you met him you might even like him.

And why there are a billion Muslims is less to do with Mohammed being such a nice guy, but more with the formation of a meme, please have a look here:

http://www.citizenwarrior.com/2007/10/t ... lamic.html

[Hombre]

Mr alemcodon,
You are defending the same man who demanded his followers to love HIM more then they love THEIR own children. A clear indication of narcissist megalomaniac individual, with disregard to others.

By asking Muslims to visit his grave, Muhammad wanted to make sure his absolute control of their lives continues in perpetuity - even after his death 1400 years later.

Buddha, Jesus also have hundreds of millions, even billions of followers, much longer then Muhamad and Islam. None of them demanded to be loved as much as Muhammad did. They too were ridiculed and shunned by others during their early days as messengers of benevolence. Yet, they never ever committed any act of violence as tool to spread their messages - nor carry any revenge against those who did insult them, as Muhammad did. Both Jesus & Buddha spread their messages through exploratory personal conduct and dignity - not through beheading of innocent people.

Finally, Ali Sina. The fact that this former Muslim has to hide, is clear testimony of Islam's bankruptcy, and its inability to confront the simplest criticism of the religion & its founder, through rational civilized manner.
Ali Sina is forced to hide, fearful for his life, because the "most perfect man" does not have the wherewithal to convince others of its purpose, other then through barbaric violence.

Use of violence has no place in modern societies, where ideological discourses can and do settle through intellectual tool - not barbaric means.

Much like the old saying goes. Use of violence begins from same spot where use of intellect has stopped. The side who use violence to convince others, is no different then any wild animals seen throughout African Serengeti.

[skynightblaze]

if he wasn't a good example, he wouldn't have over a billion followers in the present,
and may millions more from the past.

You are engaging in a logical fallacy. See below..


The Appeal to Popularity has the following form:
1) Most people approve of X (have favorable emotions towards X).
2) Therefore X is true.
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacie ... arity.html

the problem isn't the muslims, its people like you who don't know his true teachings, and the examples he set, because on these sort of forums you wont hear that, because its not in their interest.

I will give a sample of his teachings. I will reserve the rest for later. Please let me know where I went wrong in my analysis.

1) Offensive fighting just for spreading islam.
(Bukhari, Jihad, no. 2810, in Muhammad Muhsin Khan’s translation and edition, Riyadh: Darussallam, 1997).
"He who fights that Allah’s word (i.e. Allah’s religion of Islamic monotheism) be superior is in Allah’s cause"

This in no way is self defense! You never fight to spread religion in case of self defense.
(Sahih Al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 220)
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made victorious with terror, and while I was sleeping, the keys of the treasures of the world were brought to me and put in my hand." Abu Huraira added: Allah's Apostle has left the world and now you, people, are bringing out those treasures.

Here is the self confession. You see the first muslim terrorist was your own prophet.

2)MisoGynist Teachings:
a) Wife beating (quran 4:34)

b) Women are deficient in intelligence,

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490:
I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religion than you.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 1, Book 9, Number 490:

Narrated 'Aisha:

The things which annul the prayers were mentioned before me. [b]They said, "Prayer is annulled by a dog, a donkey and a woman (if they pass in front of the praying people)." I said, "You have made us (i.e. women) dogs. I saw the Prophet praying while I used to lie in my bed between him and the Qibla. Whenever I was in need of something, I would slip away for I disliked to face him."[/b]

The above hadith equates women with a donkey or a dog. These are your teachings?

3)Spreading Hatred:
Quran 5:51- Do not take jews and christians as your friends
Quran 98:6 : Disbelievers are worst of creatures
Quran 9:28 : Idolators are unclean

[frankie]

if he wasn't a good example, he wouldn't have over a billion followers in the present,
and may millions more from the past.

the problem isn't the muslims, its people like you who don't know his true teachings,
and the examples he set, because on these sort of forums you wont hear that,
because its not in their interest.

You guys just want to delve into the same 5 ambiguous historical facts repeatedly.
BTW im interested to know if any has met mr Ali Imaginary Sina in the flesh because
i always thought he was a fictional character.

alemcodon:

The man you revere as a man of god was a tribal warrior,who let nothing stand in his way to expand his invented faith to violently subjugate those who disagreed with him.

Islam is an invention of a psychotic mans mind, it wants to eradicate freedom of conscience and rule by terror.

The prophet of Islam was nothing more than a product of his time, a caravan raider who wanted power,wealth and control of peoples lands and minds.

Mohammed met the Bibles criteria for a false prophet, he did not speak in the Bible God's name, neither did he follow the Bible God's commands, but directly opposed them.

Mohammed was a false prophet because he used physical combat to bring people into submission to his tribal god's rule, to violently subjugate them until they either submitted, paid extortion money to live inferior to Muslims, or face death.

This is how Islam works, and is still working to this day.

True Bible prophets used spiritual combat against the forces of evil to bring them into repentance for sin, they exhorted their listeners to keep the Bible God's commands which state they should use love as their spiritual weapon, not the sword.

Mohamed got it wrong, because he was influenced by a deceiving spirit, which told him to use violence as his modus operandi,which he fully used to his advantage, as have Muslims throughout history, to the present day.

Muslim, in his collection of Sahih Hadith narrates the following:

Ibn 'Aun reported: I wrote to Nafi' inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before meeting them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi' said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops.” Muslim 19, 4292
32
The Book of Jihad and Expeditions
(1)
Chapter: Permissibility of raiding the Kuffar, who have been reached with the call of Islam, without giving prior warning
(1)
باب جَوَازِ الإِغَارَةِ عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ الَّذِينَ بَلَغَتْهُمْ دَعْوَةُ الإِسْلاَمِ مِنْ غَيْرِ تَقَدُّمِ الإِعْلاَمِ بِالإِغَارَةِ
Ibn 'Aun reported:
I wrote to Nafi' inquiring from him whether it was necessary to extend (to the disbelievers) an invitation to accept (Islam) before meeting them in fight. He wrote (in reply) to me that it was necessary in the early days of Islam. The Messenger of Allah (ﷺ) made a raid upon Banu Mustaliq while they were unaware and their cattle were having a drink at the water. He killed those who fought and imprisoned others. On that very day, he captured Juwairiya bint al-Harith. Nafi' said that this tradition was related to him by Abdullah b. Umar who (himself) was among the raiding troops.
حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ يَحْيَى التَّمِيمِيُّ، حَدَّثَنَا سُلَيْمُ بْنُ أَخْضَرَ، عَنِ ابْنِ عَوْنٍ، قَالَ كَتَبْتُ إِلَى نَافِعٍ أَسْأَلُهُ عَنِ الدُّعَاءِ، قَبْلَ الْقِتَالِ قَالَ فَكَتَبَ إِلَىَّ إِنَّمَا كَانَ ذَلِكَ فِي أَوَّلِ الإِسْلاَمِ قَدْ أَغَارَ رَسُولُ اللَّهِ صلى الله عليه وسلم عَلَى بَنِي الْمُصْطَلِقِ وَهُمْ غَارُّونَ وَأَنْعَامُهُمْ تُسْقَى عَلَى الْمَاءِ فَقَتَلَ مُقَاتِلَتَهُمْ وَسَبَى سَبْيَهُمْ وَأَصَابَ يَوْمَئِذٍ - قَالَ يَحْيَى أَحْسِبُهُ قَالَ - جُوَيْرِيَةَ - أَوْ قَالَ الْبَتَّةَ - ابْنَةَ الْحَارِثِ وَحَدَّثَنِي هَذَا الْحَدِيثَ عَبْدُ اللَّهِ بْنُ عُمَرَ وَكَانَ فِي ذَاكَ الْجَيْشِ.
Reference : Sahih Muslim 1730 a
In-book reference : Book 32, Hadith 1
USC-MSA web (English) reference : Book 19, Hadith 4292
(deprecated numbering scheme)

[alemcodon]

Finally, Ali Sina. The fact that this former Muslim has to hide, is clear testimony of Islam's bankruptcy, and its inability to confront the simplest criticism of the religion & its founder, through rational civilized manner.
Ali Sina is forced to hide, fearful for his life, because the "most perfect man" does not have the wherewithal to convince others of its purpose, other then through barbaric violence.

Why does he have to hide, my uncle turned into an athiest, and openly sits in circles
of muslims and ridicules the religion, nobodies killed him.

its called being a drama queen.

[alemcodon]

I see the cut n paste warriers have landed.

if you already in a dirty war with someone, there's no point in being noble.

Muhammed and his followers sat it meccah for nearly 10 years taking abuse, being killed,
attempted assasinations etc before they started to fight back.

They started to raid caravans because ALL their property was looted by the meccans
when they left for medina.

if i tell you the story of goldilocks like this....

'goldilocks ate baby bears porridge, the end', its not the whole story is it, you cant
give a life biogrophy on someone by quoting an event in a single moment in time.

As i said in another post, there Is a military aspect to islam, just as every nation on
earth has a military, why cant muslims have a military?

[alemcodon]

In this life, and on this earth, EVERY nation needs a military, and EVERY nation
has HAD to fight at some point in history.

And before you start ranting, WW1, WW2, Communism in russia, china, genghis khan
have caused more wars/deaths than Islam throughout history.

[alemcodon]

Also, if a MAN crosses your path when you praying your prayer is broken, so god
knows what your quoting and where your get it from, cut and paste warriers in action
again.

[alemcodon]

So if a woman (and woman only) nullified the prayer, why and how did aisha sit in front of him
when he was praying?

Volume 1, Book 9, Number 492:

Narrated ‘Aisha, the wife of the Prophet, “I used to sleep in front of Allah’s Apostle with my legs opposite his Qibla (facing him); and whenever he prostrated, he pushed my feet and I withdrew them and whenever he stood, I stretched them.” ‘Aisha added, “In those days there were no lamps in the houses.”

Does it require too much intelligence to understand this hadith? There was a discussion between `Aishah, the wife of the Prophet (P), with some Muslims who were not knowledgeable about religious maters on the issue of what would nullify the salat (the Islamic ritual prayer). She told them that she was knowledgeable about such rules. They remarked that when a woman or a dog, or a donkey passed in front of a praying person, the latter’s prayer was nullified. She corrected their wrong understanding with sarcasm (by saying that they are equating woman with dogs) and said that when the Prophet (P) prayed his tahajjud (midnight voluntary prayers) in her room, her bed (where she lay) was right in front of him. Hence, those Muslims were wrong in their understanding of the rules of nullification of salat: a salat is not nullified if a woman is in front of a praying person.

Other ahadith that closely follow in Bukhari further collaborates the matter.

[alemcodon]

Stanley Lane-Poole writes.

No great lawmaker has ever made such significant changes as Mohammed did on the subject of women. Rulings concerning women have been outlined in the Koran (Qur’an) in great detail. This is the point at which Mohammed’s greatest reforms have occurred. Although these reforms may appear insignificant to a European, they are actually tremendous. The restriction placed on polygamy, the recommendation of monogamy, the introduction of degrees of prohibition in place of the appalling collectivism and intermixing of Arab marriages, the limitations on divorce, the duty of a husband to take care of his ex-wife for a certain period even after they are divorced, the severe rulings to ensure her livelihood, the introduction of the novelty that women are legal heirs “even if at half the rate of men” so that children may be properly looked after, and the ability of a widow to receive her dead husband’s inheritance?all these constitute a programme of far-reaching reforms.3

[frankie]

I see the cut n paste warriers have landed.

if you already in a dirty war with someone, there's no point in being noble.

Muhammed and his followers sat it meccah for nearly 10 years taking abuse, being killed,
attempted assasinations etc before they started to fight back.

They started to raid caravans because ALL their property was looted by the meccans
when they left for medina.

if i tell you the story of goldilocks like this....

'goldilocks ate baby bears porridge, the end', its not the whole story is it, you cant
give a life biogrophy on someone by quoting an event in a single moment in time.

As i said in another post, there Is a military aspect to islam, just as every nation on
earth has a military, why cant muslims have a military?

alemcodon,

Not so fast,these are your own sources that I have "cut and paste "and are no less legitimate because of this.

They show clearly that Mohammed used violence to bring people to Islam, he raided they lands because this is how 7th century Arabs did business, he just followed his own cultural practice, but used "religion" as his excuse to do the raiding.

Mohammed put himself as the final prophet, in the long line of prophets who spoke in the name of the Bible God, but Mohammed used mans way of "doing business", not the Bible God's.

For Mohammed to represent the God of the Bible, which he stated he was, he would have had to use the same method as all the other prophets who spoke in the name of this God, as God's ways are unchangeable.

But Mohammed didn't, proving he wasn't who he said he was, he was a false prophet used by a deceiving spirit to deceive people, and as Jesus tells us, "false prophets deceive many."

[alemcodon]

Laura Veccia Vaglieri writes...

Even though woman has risen to a high social status in Europe, she has not, at least until recently, attained in many countries the independence and liberty enjoyed by a Moslem woman in the face of the law. In reality, the woman in Islam possesses the right to share in inheritance, even if to an extent less than her brothers; the right to marry according to her own choice and not to tolerate the ill treatment of a brutish husband; but further, the rights to receive dowry payment from her husband, to have her needs met by her husband even if she is rich, and to be absolutely independent in the disposal of her inherited property.4

[alemcodon]

Frankie,

What your posting are not the original hadith, they are obscure translations, mostly by guys
who cant speak english. (re the woman dog/donkeys ones)

And the others (war) are part of a context your're not referencing. ie the people getting raided
had raided the muslim caravans and houses for almost a decade prior.

[frankie]

Stanley Lane-Poole writes.

No great lawmaker has ever made such significant changes as Mohammed did on the subject of women. Rulings concerning women have been outlined in the Koran (Qur’an) in great detail. This is the point at which Mohammed’s greatest reforms have occurred. Although these reforms may appear insignificant to a European, they are actually tremendous. The restriction placed on polygamy, the recommendation of monogamy, the introduction of degrees of prohibition in place of the appalling collectivism and intermixing of Arab marriages, the limitations on divorce, the duty of a husband to take care of his ex-wife for a certain period even after they are divorced, the severe rulings to ensure her livelihood, the introduction of the novelty that women are legal heirs “even if at half the rate of men” so that children may be properly looked after, and the ability of a widow to receive her dead husband’s inheritance?all these constitute a programme of far-reaching reforms.3

alemcoden:

All of which proves nothing.

What you need to know about Mohammed is written in the ahadiths,which you as a Muslim have to read, to know how to emulate him, as you are obliged to do.

These ahadiths,plus Islam's own history shows that it is a militant faith,putting its adherents at war with those who do not believe as its commands, using soldiers for its god, to fight unbelievers to bring them into submission to its gods rule.

[frankie]

Frankie,

What your posting are not the original hadith, they are obscure translations, mostly by guys
who cant speak english. (re the woman dog/donkeys ones)

And the others (war) are part of a context your're not referencing. ie the people getting raided
had raided the muslim caravans and houses for almost a decade prior.

alemcodon:

Fair enough, please show this using evidence from Islamic sources to support your claims.

[Hombre]

Finally, Ali Sina. The fact that this former Muslim has to hide, is clear testimony of Islam's bankruptcy, and its inability to confront the simplest criticism of the religion & its founder, through rational civilized manner.
Ali Sina is forced to hide, fearful for his life, because the "most perfect man" does not have the wherewithal to convince others of its purpose, other then through barbaric violence.

Why does he have to hide, my uncle turned into an athiest, and openly sits in circles
of muslims and ridicules the religion, nobodies killed him.

its called being a drama queen.

Best to let ali sina answer this question. I already sent him an email for response.

[Hombre]

In this life, and on this earth, EVERY nation needs a military, and EVERY nation
has HAD to fight at some point in history.

And before you start ranting, WW1, WW2, Communism in russia, china, genghis khan
have caused more wars/deaths than Islam throughout history.

Perhaps you should be reminded that, many members in this blog, are either former Muslims, or read the Quran & Hadith and well versed with Islam - though from an objective pov. Therefore, I would really suggest you to refrain using comments "you don't know Islam" - we do.

Trust me habibi, in past, many other Muslims also tried same approach, only to find themselves in awkward position, after which they left w/o a trace.