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Re: Did Muhammed Have Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:08 pm
by yeezevee
michaelsherlock wrote:
yeezevee wrote:great now we are talking ...

some one who was never a Muslim wrote ..

" By reading Islamic scriptures, early Islamic history and Life of Prophet of Islam, I realized Islam is a bogus religion and on the way I realized the religion I was born in to was also a fake one"


Love that quote!

thank you mr. sherlock., So i read your blog and I see this

Image

It says "Was Jesus the Bastard Son of a Menstruate Adulteress from 100 BCE" ., suppose he was bastard., his mother was adulteress or raped/had sex with some Roman Rogue.. Would that make Jesus Christ a Criminal and a sorry figure in the eyes of Non-Christians and Christians??

Just curious about your opinion... I think "A faith being fake is different from a person who may be real or a just a figure head of a religion" .

Am I wrong to say that? Should we blame him for the sorry affairs that goes on in that faith 100s or 1000s of years after his/her death??

with best regards
yeezevee

Re: Did Muhammed Have Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 1:11 pm
by Fernando
Never mind competing religions, look at the question. Did Mohammed (ihee)* have epilepsy? I.e. Did he have hallucinations due to a medical cause? This has been speculated on by medics before (I'm not sure if that includes the one mentioned above) and is another explanation for the origin of Islam. We have:
1) All real, all true, Allah did it.
2) Mo (ihee) made it all up
3) Somebody else made it all up
to which we can add
4) Mo (ihee) imagined it all up during his illness.
Barring the ridiculous 1), 4) is the most charitable explanation and could perhaps be the gentlest way out for Muslims. So perhaps it should not only be examined, but actually pushed as the best explanation.
*(ihee)=(if he ever existed)

Re: Did Muhammed Have Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 5:21 pm
by iffo
michaelsherlock wrote:What do, Joan of arc, Saint Paul and Muhammed, all have in common? According to the legends surrounding these three figures, they all saw and or, heard, God, whether in the form of angels, saints, or God himself.

Joan of Arc was accused of witchraft, with many observers believing her to be possessed by demons. According to her though, she had a direct visual and audio link to God. Paul, on his way to Damascas, saw visions of Christ, and heard Christ's voice in his head. Muhhamed, who it was alleged, spoke to Allah, suffered pain and was left breathless on many occaisions following his episodes/seizures, at first, believing himself to be possessed by demons.

These three characters, if the legends do any justice to the truth surrounding their tales, may have infact been suffering from Temporal Lobe Epilepsy. Dr Lydia Bayne of the California University is one of the first neurologists to pose this idea, given the symptoms of this disease, i.e, visual and auditory hallucinations and feelings of ecstacy.

A further common symptom of Temporal Lobe Epilepsy is a heightened sex-drive.

Consider now, Paul's famous saying in the Epistle to the Romans, in which he says:

“…I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members” (Romans 7:23 NASB).

Here, Paul, according to many theologians, one of them being, Bishop John Shelby Spong, was speaking with regard to his constant battle against his own sexual desires.

Another relevent passage from Paul, appears in his 2nd letter to the Corinthians, in which he says:

“there was given me a thorn in the flesh, a messenger of Satan to torment me” (2 Corinthians 12:7 NASB)

Some theologians have suggested that the thorn in Paul's flesh was epilepsy, whilst others have speculated that it pertained to his obscure sexual desires. The fact of the matter is, both positions may be right, at the same time.

Ok, then there is Muhammed.....I think I will just leave this examination here.


I agree with you michaelsherlock, Muhammad had some medical issues. All religions and their founders had either medical issues or they were flat out crocks. In case of Muhammad he had medical issues turned into criminal activities.

Re: Did Muhammed Have Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 6:12 pm
by manfred
iffo wrote:
I agree with you michaelsherlock, Muhammad had some medical issues. All religions and their founders had either medical issues or they were flat out crocks. In case of Muhammad he had medical issues turned into criminal activities.


Well, Mohammed may have had some, there is some modest amount of evidence for that. However, if he really did have temporal lobe epilepsy then it still does neither fully explain nor excuse his behaviour. There have to have been other factors. Ali Sina makes a case for Narcissistic Personality Disorder, for example, in my view more consistent with the overall behaviour of Mohammed. His epilepsy, if indeed there was some, is more incidental. Many people have epilepsy. Few claim to be prophets and set out to conquer the world. Interestingly Julius Cesar had epilepsy, and he also had some delusions of grandeur, in some ways similar to Mohammed. But these seem to be exceptions really. There are many many people having various forms of epilepsy, and you would be very hard pressed finding another like Mohammed amongst them.

All religions and their founders had either medical issues or they were flat out crocks.


Religions are not people, so they cannot get medical issues as such. I am not aware of any great number of religious leaders with mental health problems or other medical issues. We have no such information about Moses or Jesus, for example, at least that I am aware of.

As to those two being crooks, well crooks tend to get rich, at least before they get caught. Maybe these two were very bad crooks? What about Buddha? Confucius? Also crooks?

I would use this idea as a rule of thumb: if they got rich or powerful, or got fringe benefits like a lot of sex, if they make exceptions for themselves when making rules, and say do as I say, not as I do, or ask you to do things you think are bad, then treat with extreme caution.

If not, there is no harm in looking iffo, maybe they can improve something in your life.

Re: Did Muhammed Have Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?

PostPosted: Sun Aug 12, 2012 8:20 pm
by iffo
manfred wrote:
iffo wrote:
I agree with you michaelsherlock, Muhammad had some medical issues. All religions and their founders had either medical issues or they were flat out crocks. In case of Muhammad he had medical issues turned into criminal activities.


Well, Mohammed may have had some, there is some modest amount of evidence for that. However, if he really did have temporal lobe epilepsy then it still does neither fully explain nor excuse his behaviour. There have to have been other factors. Ali Sina makes a case for Narcissistic Personality Disorder, for example, in my view more consistent with the overall behaviour of Mohammed. His epilepsy, if indeed there was some, is more incidental. Many people have epilepsy. Few claim to be prophets and set out to conquer the world. Interestingly Julius Cesar had epilepsy, and he also had some delusions of grandeur, in some ways similar to Mohammed. But these seem to be exceptions really. There are many many people having various forms of epilepsy, and you would be very hard pressed finding another like Mohammed amongst them.

All religions and their founders had either medical issues or they were flat out crocks.


Religions are not people, so they cannot get medical issues as such. I am not aware of any great number of religious leaders with mental health problems or other medical issues. We have no such information about Moses or Jesus, for example, at least that I am aware of.

As to those two being crooks, well crooks tend to get rich, at least before they get caught. Maybe these two were very bad crooks? What about Buddha? Confucius? Also crooks?

I would use this idea as a rule of thumb: if they got rich or powerful, or got fringe benefits like a lot of sex, if they make exceptions for themselves when making rules, and say do as I say, not as I do, or ask you to do things you think are bad, then treat with extreme caution.

If not, there is no harm in looking iffo, maybe they can improve something in your life.


I personally believe if this universe is created by some super power, that super power has never sent any message to any human. Because it is very in effective strategy and serves no purpose. Sending message to Budha or Jesus achieves nothing. It creates more problems, confusion, divide people and cause bloodshed, super power should know better.

Its is very hard to get into the heads of these self claimed prophets as to what they are thinking. I don't understand how to explain people like Budha, Jesus , Guru Nanak, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad etc

Re: Did Muhammed Have Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 12:12 am
by manfred
Right, that is an interesting notion.. maybe there is a God but he does not give a sh!t? Well, why would he make all this stuff and then think of it as worthless? He makes you and me, and then thinks these two are not worth even the time of day? Well, if that is the case, why bother at all to make us in the first place? What is the point of creating anything if it does not relate to you and you don't want to look after it? Do YOU make things to bin them?

Anyway, just a thought.

About all these other people you mention, why are you so concerned about WHO they are? For you and me, that is very much a secondary question. The first one is WHAT HAVE THEY GOT TO SAY TO ME, if anything? Does any of that sound right? Is any of that of any use to me? If yes, what does it matter who said it? If no, why should I spend my limited time on their biography?

Re: Did Muhammed Have Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?

PostPosted: Mon Aug 13, 2012 2:01 am
by iffo
manfred wrote:Right, that is an interesting notion.. maybe there is a God but he does not give a sh!t? Well, why would he make all this stuff and then think of it as worthless? He makes you and me, and then thinks these two are not worth even the time of day? Well, if that is the case, why bother at all to make us in the first place? What is the point of creating anything if it does not relate to you and you don't want to look after it? Do YOU make things to bin them?

Anyway, just a thought.



The way this world/life is it seems like it is on its own and super power (if created by super power) does not interfere. Because he has never tried to communicate with us. I do not have answer to what was the super power's purpose to create us. Everybody has his own guess.

About all these other people you mention, why are you so concerned about WHO they are? For you and me, that is very much a secondary question. The first one is WHAT HAVE THEY GOT TO SAY TO ME, if anything? Does any of that sound right? Is any of that of any use to me? If yes, what does it matter who said it? If no, why should I spend my limited time on their biography?

To me even if they said something which is good and useful, I can give them credit for that, but still I can not give them divine status. To me they were still liars who said something useful and good.

Re: Did Muhammed Have Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 1:06 am
by katlike
I doubt mohammed had epilepsy, or more so, I doubt that if he had epilepsy, that was his/our issue. On the old forum there was a discussion about another medical condition. I forget the name, it started with an "a" and included symptoms more attuned to mohammed's. I.e. enlarged hands, onset in the early 40's, bushy eyebrows, hallucinations, sensations of grandure, heightened sexual needs. Does anyone else remember that conversation? I will try to find a link to the conversation. It really made a lot of sense.
*edit...apparently I can no longer access the old forum. If anyone knows how, let me know and I would be happy to try and find the conversation I mentioned. From what I can remember, don't hold me to this, it was a thyroid or glandular disease. Another symptom was an odor the body emitted. It really, really made sense of all of mohammed's bizarre religious edicts.

Re: Did Muhammed Have Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 10:44 pm
by sum
Hello katlike

The medical problem is acromegaly. It is a tumour in the pituitary gland which produces an excess of growth hormone leading to most of the symptoms that you list.

The history of the early years of Muhammad`s life do suggest that he had epilepsy and from what is recorded it is reasonable to assume that he did have temporal lobe epilepsy. They thought that he was "possessed" and later the Meccans offered to get him the best medical attention if he stopped insulting their gods.

sum

Re: Did Muhammed Have Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?

PostPosted: Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:13 pm
by manfred
Hi sum,

now that is an interesting idea... However while SOME of the things we are told about Mohammed fit very well, other common, easily visible traits seem to have never been mentioned (?)...

For example, the striking facial changes, and the changes to the jaw causing gaps between the teeth to widen. As almost all aspects of Mohammed's life was retold, I would have thought such things also get a mention, maybe...

Did anyone mention in any hadith that Mohammed had a slow deep voice as he grew older?

Do we know if Mohammed had heart or kidney problems? (OK, some other things associated with acromegaly, like high blood pressure or diabetes would be not detectable then. But eye problems or circulatory issues associated with diabetes would have been observable.

Another thing that makes we wonder is that in men, this disease often results in impotence due to low testosterone production. One would expect normally a REDUCED sex drive, but old Mo was like the proverbial old goat, to his last day...

So, are you sure this is a likely scenario?

Re: Did Muhammed Have Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 10:39 am
by sum
Hello manfred

I was only informing katlike of what she was trying to recall as she could not remember. I do not seem to have any Islamic accounts on the specific features that could be diagnostic of Muhammad suffering from acromegaly, only that he became fat. Perhaps his reluctance to have his portait done reflects the change in his features - this is only speculation. If he did have a malignant NPD then his vanity would not permit him to be shown as less than appealing.

sum

Re: Did Muhammed Have Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 12:35 pm
by manfred
True...

still, the theory may be worth some exploration. We would need to see if there is some more evidence buried in the hadith, for or against...

Getting fatter as he got older is not enough, as, sadly a great number of people do so...

Re: Did Muhammed Have Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 8:33 pm
by sum
Hello manfred

Ali Sina lists the physical appearances and signs of Muhammad in his book "Understanding Muhammad" second edition, chapter four, page 155.... They are all from reliable hadith etc. I will list the details of the appearance and signs but it would take me too long to list the sources.

heavy and thick fleshy hands and feet
wide and doughlike palms
large head
large bones and joints
wide chest, large upper back and shoulder joints
long forearms
long thick fingers and toes
long, aquiline fleshy nose that looked upturned
wide mouth and thick lips
large eyes
spaced teeth
long silvery neck
lustre on his skin(looked oily)
thick beard and hair, dense protruding eyebrows
walked leaning forward as if on a slope(stiffness)
walked briskly(restlessness)
difficulty moving neck and turned moving full torso(catatonic behaviour)
had white skin with reddish tinge
sweating
peculiar smell that he masked with excessive perfume
snored like a camel
suffered from head-aches(performed cupping to alleviate it)
in later years he was impotent
lips moved involuntarily
was shy and prudish


As I had previously suggested, he would not be overjoyed in his appearance, as described in the ahadith etc, being recorded and probably mocked!

sum

Re: Did Muhammed Have Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?

PostPosted: Sun Oct 21, 2012 9:38 pm
by manfred
excellent, I found that... it has been some years since I read that, I did not remember at all.

Given a list that long, there seems to be a very good case for that.

The most striking feature is the voice, at least for some people. Maybe that has been mentioned as well? I am going to have a hunt around...

Thanks for that, good find.

Re: Did Muhammed Have Temporal Lobe Epilepsy?

PostPosted: Mon Oct 22, 2012 2:22 am
by katlike
Thank you Sum, that is what I was remembering. Again, I am not dismissing temporal lobe epilepsy, I would not be surprised at all to learn that he suffered from it, but I am not convinced that was his only medical/mental issue. To Manfred, the thread I remember reading gave a seriously, compelling argument. To medically diagnose someone now who lived 1500 years ago is a challenge that can not bear fruit, but like you, I can't help but think the case for this disease is very intriguing. It would explain a lot. Please let us know your findings. I will continue to look myself.

Peace, love and health,
katlike