All Muhammad`s deeds were condoned by Allah.

[Garudaman]

Hello Garudaman

As usual, you are not answering the question. Please go back to my question and answer it.

sum

this one right?

Just tell me if you consider it acceptable for a man to have sexual intercourse with a 9yr old girl.

its ok, but only if she can pass physical & mental maturation criteria, but I never meet 9yr girl who was able to pass those criteria (so my answer is just theoretical answer)!

[ringmaster]

...................

Just tell me if you consider it acceptable for a man to have sexual intercourse with a 9yr old girl.

its ok, but only if she can pass physical & mental maturation criteria, but I never meet 9yr girl who was able to pass those criteria (so my answer is just theoretical answer)!

Such niceties were never an issue for your prophet. He would boink anything that moved, and even something that did not move (such as a dead woman's corpse).

Neither were they an issue for Khomeini, who wrote that sex with children as young as infants is halal.

[sum]

Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
its ok, but only if she can pass physical & mental maturation criteria,

What are the physical criteria?

Do you think that it is detrimental to the girl in any way?

sum

[peterpin]

dear garudaman,

do you think Aisha met such criteria?

I never met anyone aged 9 who had any interest in sex, or I would trust to look after my money.. If you give a nine year old a pile of money,what do you get? LOTS of sweets,a few toys perhaps. 20 litres of ice cream as weekly shopping.

I met some I would buy an ice cream perhaps, if mom allows it, or who I would ask in passing how their day at school was, if I knew them. I have a niece that age,and she insists when I see her that I tell her a story...

Somehow nine years old and sex and marriage don't go together at all... do you disagree?

Shouldn't kids be allowed to be kids? Life is hard enough whne you get older, so a few precious years of worry-free happiness, is that too much to wish for a child?

[ringmaster]

dear garudaman,

..................................................

Somehow nine years old and sex and marriage don't go together at all... do you disagree?

He must disagree with you. If he were to disagree with you, he would thereby condemn his prophet, which he cannot do.

dear garudaman,

...........................................................

Shouldn't kids be allowed to be kids? Life is hard enough whne you get older, so a few precious years of worry-free happiness, is that too much to wish for a child?

For Garudaman, it must be too much for a child. He has no other choice. He cannot condemn his prophet.

[kaimana1]

then her guardian shouldn't hand over his orphan girl until she reach mature mentally, and yes that criteria isn't about age but capability! :turban

Actually the verse doesnt say that it just says test them until the orphans reach NIKAH -not maturity and puberty like many muslims like to claim.

Irt can be six years, seven years Not to mention the verse is only talking about orphans.

[LaMazhab]

Adding one more..

Abolishing Adoption over Sex

Quran- 33:37-39
"O Prophet, remember the time when you were saying to the man whom Allah as well as you had favored, "keep your wife and fear Allah." You were at that time keeping hidden in your heart that which Allah intended to reveal: you were fearing the people, whereas Allah has a greater right that you should fear Him. So, when Zaid had fulfilled his desire of her, We married (the divorced woman) to you so that there remains no hindrance for the believers in regard to the wives of their adopted sons when they have fulfilled their desire of them. And Allah's Command had to be carried out...."

man - Hadrat Zaid bin Harithah, feed slave & adopted son of Prophet Mohammed.
of her - Zaid's wife, Hadrat Zainab, Prophet Mohammed's first cousin.

Something to chew on:
The replies to this post will include ridiculous reasons like issue of losing the adopted child's Sir (or last) name, & Zaid was unhappy & was going to divorce anyway. To this I say, do not lose sight of facts, the verse begins with what is in Mohammed's heart and if Allah wanted to have this as a law then Allah's command (Quranic Verses) should be enough there were no hindrances & absolutely no need to practically do it. And even if it had to be done practically, why Allah had to pick Mohammed and Zaid's wife?

"You were at that time keeping hidden in your heart that which Allah intended to reveal" - clearly this is something Mohammed desired & have been thinking about and Allah had to help, as such the above verses were sent by Allah.

As a result of this, today Muslims cannot adopt a child - a religion that claims to be so loving and carrying, yet adoption is not allowed, all because Allah wanted Mohammed to marry Zaid's wife (& something Mohammed was hiding in his heart).

At the time this verse was sent by Allah, Zaid was still married, he had no choice but to obey Allah's command and divorce his wife - You see, it was not sufficient for Allah just to say 'you can marry your divorced sister-in-law', he had to specifically choose Zaid and Mohammed to set an example & as such Mohammed had to practically show which Allah wanted - all to eliminate "hindrances"

[Garudaman]

dear garudaman,

..................................................

Somehow nine years old and sex and marriage don't go together at all... do you disagree?

He must disagree with you. If he were to disagree with you, he would thereby condemn his prophet, which he cannot do.

dear garudaman,

...........................................................

Shouldn't kids be allowed to be kids? Life is hard enough whne you get older, so a few precious years of worry-free happiness, is that too much to wish for a child?

For Garudaman, it must be too much for a child. He has no other choice. He cannot condemn his prophet.

If contrary to the Qur'an, then it is not sunnah(what the Prophet Muhammad do)!

[Garudaman]

Raiding and looting for booty. - Muhammad made his living out of raids, plundering and looting. He was a robber and thief and lived off stolen goods. Allah supported this. Amazing.

Koran - 8:68 - "Had it not been for a previous agreement from Allah, a severe penalty would have reached you for the (ransom) that you took as booty."
Koran - 8:69 - "So enjoy what you took as booty; the spoils are lawful and good."

This is a start and I would welcome further contributions from the posters.

sum

QS. 2:190. Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors.

QS. 8:26. And remember when you were few and oppressed in the land, fearing that people might abduct you, but He sheltered you, supported you with His victory, and provided you with good things - that you might be grateful.
QS. 8:34. But why should Allah not punish them while they obstruct [people] from al-Masjid al- Haram and they were not [fit to be] its guardians? Its [true] guardians are not but the righteous, but most of them do not know.
QS. 8:36. Indeed, those who disbelieve spend their wealth to avert [people] from the way of Allah. So they will spend it; then it will be for them a [source of] regret; then they will be overcome. And those who have disbelieved - unto Hell they will be gathered.
QS. 8:61. And if they incline to peace, then incline to it [also] and rely upon Allah . Indeed, it is He who is the Hearing, the Knowing.

QS. 22:39. Permission [to fight] has been given to those who are being fought, because they were wronged. And indeed, Allah is competent to give them victory.

[Garudaman]

Shouldn't kids be allowed to be kids? Life is hard enough whne you get older, so a few precious years of worry-free happiness, is that too much to wish for a child?

http://www.islam4women.org/8-hadiths-re ... e-prophet/

“When a man gives his daughter in marriage and she dislikes it, the marriage shall be annulled.” (Once a virgin girl came to the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) and said that her father had married her to a man against her wishes. The Prophet gave her the right to repudiate the marriage.)

“Khansa’ b. Khidham reported that her father gave her in marriage, after she had became a widow. She disliked it and came to the Prophet. He annulled the marriage.”

“The widow and the divorced woman shall not be married until their order is obtained, and the virgin shall not be married until her consent is obtained.”

A report from Ibn Abbas states that the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) said: “A previously married woman is more a guardian for herself than her guardian and a virgin should be asked permission about herself, and her permission is her silence. ”

Abu Hurairah reports that the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) said: “A grown-up girl shall be asked permission about herself. If she is silent, it is her permission; and if she declines, there shall be no compulsion on her.” (Muslim).

[sum]

Hello Garudaman

You have completely avoided the matter that I raised - that Muhammad was a common or garden raider and looter of innocent merchant caravans. Anyone who resisted was killed.

Do you agree with this lifestyle of Muhammad and the fact that Allah condoned it and told Muhammad and his mercenaries to enjoy the spoils of their ill-gotten gains?

sum

[Garudaman]

Hello Garudaman

You have completely avoided the matter that I raised - that Muhammad was a common or garden raider and looter of innocent merchant caravans. Anyone who resisted was killed.

Do you agree with this lifestyle of Muhammad and the fact that Allah condoned it and told Muhammad and his mercenaries to enjoy the spoils of their ill-gotten gains?

sum

you cannot prove, that it is taught by muhammad in the Quran!

[sum]

Hello Garudaman

You have the evidence from the Koran that Muhammad and his mercenaries raided people and took their possessions as booty.

Do you accept the evidence from the sunnah and ahadith etc regarding the raids by Muhammad?

I find Muhammad`s actions totally unacceptable. Are they acceptable to you?

sum

[Garudaman]

This is the reason, why their wealth, should be taken :

QS. 8:36. Indeed, those who disbelieve spend their wealth to avert [people] from the way of Allah. So they will spend it; then it will be for them a [source of] regret; then they will be overcome. And those who have disbelieved - unto Hell they will be gathered.

I think it's okay, if in the war, plundering enemy logistics!

[sum]

Hello Garudaman

The verse that you quoted is an insult to the non-muslims.

The people who were subjected to Muhammad`s raids already had their God. Can you tell me why they should be subjected to violence for not accepting Muhammad`s god who is a totally unproven entity? Why is Allah more real than any of the many other gods? You have no proof at all, have you?

Muhammad did not just take the wealth of the people who refused to accept Islam, he also killed the men and took the women and children as booty!!! As you well know, the Koran, which you accept in totality, permits the captive women to be used as sex objects. Please tell me if you think that this is abhorrent and unacceptable.

Do you understand the meaning of empathy and morality?

sum

[Garudaman]

Hello Garudaman

The verse that you quoted is an insult to the non-muslims.

The people who were subjected to Muhammad`s raids already had their God. Can you tell me why they should be subjected to violence for not accepting Muhammad`s god who is a totally unproven entity? Why is Allah more real than any of the many other gods? You have no proof at all, have you?

they be allowed to reject Islam, but the problem is, they block Muslim from Hajj, which only can be done in Mecca!

Muhammad did not just take the wealth of the people who refused to accept Islam, he also killed the men and took the women and children as booty!!! As you well know, the Koran, which you accept in totality, permits the captive women to be used as sex objects. Please tell me if you think that this is abhorrent and unacceptable.

Do you understand the meaning of empathy and morality?

sum

QS. 4:25. And whoever among you cannot [find] the means to marry free, believing women, then [he may marry] from those whom your right hands possess of believing slave girls. And Allah is most knowing about your faith. You [believers] are of one another. So marry them with the permission of their people and give them their due compensation according to what is acceptable. [They should be] chaste, neither [of] those who commit unlawful intercourse randomly nor those who take [secret] lovers. But once they are sheltered in marriage, if they should commit adultery, then for them is half the punishment for free [unmarried] women. This [allowance] is for him among you who fears sin, but to be patient is better for you. And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.

QS. 33:50. O Prophet, indeed We have made lawful to you your wives to whom you have given their due compensation and those your right hand possesses from what Allah has returned to you [of captives] and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who emigrated with you and a believing woman if she gives herself to the Prophet [and] if the Prophet wishes to marry her, [this is] only for you, excluding the [other] believers. We certainly know what We have made obligatory upon them concerning their wives and those their right hands possess, [but this is for you] in order that there will be upon you no discomfort. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

QS. 60:10. O you who have believed, when the believing women come to you as emigrants, examine them. Allah is most knowing as to their faith. And if you know them to be believers, then do not return them to the disbelievers; they are not lawful [wives] for them, nor are they lawful [husbands] for them. But give the disbelievers what they have spent. And there is no blame upon you if you marry them when you have given them their due compensation. And hold not to marriage bonds with disbelieving women, but ask for what you have spent and let them ask for what they have spent. That is the judgement of Allah ; He judges between you. And Allah is Knowing and Wise.

right hand possess ---> must be married!

[sum]

Hello Garudaman

As usual, you avoid the difficult parts of my question. I will ask again.

The people who were subjected to Muhammad`s raids already had their God. Can you tell me why they should be subjected to violence for not accepting Muhammad`s god who is a totally unproven entity? Why is Allah more real than any of the many other gods? You have no proof at all, have you?

Please answer these very important points.

sum

[Garudaman]

as I mentioned, they are has been raided, not because they reject Allah SWT!

[frankie]

This is the reason, why their wealth, should be taken :

QS. 8:36. Indeed, those who disbelieve spend their wealth to avert [people] from the way of Allah. So they will spend it; then it will be for them a [source of] regret; then they will be overcome. And those who have disbelieved - unto Hell they will be gathered.

I think it's okay, if in the war, plundering enemy logistics!

Garudaman.

You never answered my question I gave to you some time ago.

I asked,how did Mohammed "further the cause of Islam" and how are his followers to do the same?

Or,perhaps re-phrased,how did Islam expand way over to Spain,via France,Persia India etc etc.Bearing in mind that the concept of a Muslim missionary is unheared of throughout Islamic history?

[sum]

Hello Garudaman

Your quote -
as I mentioned, they are has been raided, not because they reject Allah SWT!

Was it acceptable for Muhammad to instigate over 60 ghazwas - raids without warning where he looted others` possessions, killed those who resisted and took women and children as slaves?

sum