All Muhammad`s deeds were condoned by Allah.

[sum]

I think that we could do a lot more to show how Muhammad`s deeds were condoned by Allah, encouraged by Allah or not mentioned by Allah. The inference is that Allah is simply Muhammad.

If a list was made of the unacceptable deeds perpetrated by Muhammad we could add the Koranic support for these. I suggest that the following could be a start.

Paedophilia - The following verse clearly indicates that pre-pubertal girls have been subjected to sexual intercourse.

Koran 65:4Such of your women as have passed the age of monthly courses, for them the prescribed period, if ye have any doubts, is three months, and for those who have no courses (it is the same): for those who carry (life within their wombs), their period is until they deliver their burdens: and for those who fear Allah, He will make their path easy.

Rape - Muhammad and the muslims were sexually frustrated and so Allah revealed the following verse to solve the problem of having captive women that the muslims wanted to use for sex.

Koran 4:24 - And [also prohibited to you are all] married women except those your right hands possess. [This is] the decree of Allah upon you. And lawful to you are [all others] beyond these, [provided] that you seek them [in marriage] with [gifts from] your property, desiring chastity, not unlawful sexual intercourse. So for whatever you enjoy [of marriage] from them, give them their due compensation as an obligation. And there is no blame upon you for what you mutually agree to beyond the obligation. Indeed, Allah is ever Knowing and Wise.

Domestic violence - Muhammad struck Aisha on the chest and caused her pain. The following verse permits violence towards one`s wife and so Allah removes any guilt from Muhammad.

Koran 4:34 - "Men are the managers of the affairs of women for that God has preferred in bounty one of them over another, and for that they have expended of their property. Righteous women are therefore obedient, guarding the secret for God's guarding. And those you fear may be rebellious admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them. If they then obey you, look not for any way against them; God is All high, All great."

Raiding and looting for booty. - Muhammad made his living out of raids, plundering and looting. He was a robber and thief and lived off stolen goods. Allah supported this. Amazing.

Koran - 8:68 - "Had it not been for a previous agreement from Allah, a severe penalty would have reached you for the (ransom) that you took as booty."
Koran - 8:69 - "So enjoy what you took as booty; the spoils are lawful and good."

This is a start and I would welcome further contributions from the posters.

sum

[ringmaster]

No doubt we will now hear all about how the koran is "contextual" and not applicable for modern times.

How many times have we heard that bull crap lullaby???

[paxi christi]

No doubt we will now hear all about how the koran is "contextual" and not applicable for modern times.

@ ringmaster

you can say that again.

and never again in any other time.

[Fernando]

No doubt we will now hear all about how the koran is "contextual" and not applicable for modern times.

Wouldn't that mean an admission that Islam is not applicable to modern times? Sounds good to me - or have I missed an implication?

[ringmaster]

No doubt we will now hear all about how the koran is "contextual" and not applicable for modern times.

Wouldn't that mean an admission that Islam is not applicable to modern times? Sounds good to me - or have I missed an implication?

They just sing us that lullaby in an attempt to assuage its filth. But rest assured, if muslims (including Mesmorial) were in a position to make sharia law the law of the land, they would do it. Muslims have reached sufficient numbers in Europe where they are openly trying to impose it. Open armed conflict is inevitable.

Then the koran would be contextual again...contextual in the sense that they want to apply islamic law now.

The very fact that Mesmorial is in here trying to sell us on his whitewashed version of islam rather than trying to convince his fellow muslims is all the proof I need to say that his motive is deception.

[sum]

A bit more -

Genocide Muhammad both exiled or committed genocide against the Jewish tribes who had permitted him and his followers to live within their territory. Allah was fond of detroying towns and eliminating whole populations.

Koran 33:26/27 And those of the People of the Book who aided them - Allah did take them down from their strongholds and cast terror into their hearts. (So that) some ye slew, and some ye made prisoners. And He made you heirs of their lands, their houses, and their goods, and of a land which ye had not frequented (before). And Allah has power over all things.

Koran 10:13/14 We destroyed nations before you when they did wrong; and their messengers came unto them with clear proofs and (yet) they would not believe. Thus do We reward the guilty folk. Then We made you successors in the land after them so that We may see how you act.

sum

[sum]

A bit more.

Muhammad stoned people to death for sinful sexual intercourse. The Koran demands lashing with no mention of stoning. What does this imply?

It could be that the hadith relating to the goat eating the Koranic verses of stoning was correct and Muhammad was not contravening the Koran. In other words the Koran has not been kept in its original state.
It could be that there were no verses revealed about stoning and that Allah had given up on controlling Muhammad and so made no Koranic comment on whether stoning was correct or not.
If Allah did exist why did he not correct the situation regarding the lost verses?
Was Muhammad aware or not that the vesrses were missing - if he was, where is it mentioned that he acknowledged this and corrected the matter?

Why did Muhammad stone when he should have lashed? Please explain, muslims.

sum

[Ghaith]

It could be that the hadith relating to the goat eating the Koranic verses of stoning was correct and Muhammad was not contravening the Koran. In other words the Koran has not been kept in its original state.

Sunan Ibn Majah, Book of Nikah, Hadith # 1934)

Narrated Aisha 'The verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept
under my bed. When the Messenger of Allah. expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper."

I am afraid doctor, this hadith is fabricated and is not a Sahih this peoplen that fabricate it (as described in quran 6:112).

Why did they fabricate it? So would fit with

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 816 and with Sahih Muslim Book 017, Number 4194.

Sadly this missing aya theory was refuted and destroyed by Ibn Hajar

"Umar said: "When this verse came down I approached the Prophet peace be upon him so I asked him: Should I write it down? It is as if he hated that Then Umar said: "Cant you see that if the old man if he commits adultery he does not get the whip, and that if the young man if he commits adultery he gets stoned?" (Ibn Hajar - Fathul Bari - Hadith Commentary Of Bukhari, 6441 - 1407 AH/1986)

The verse is not a part of the quran but is a law as Muhammad did not want to write it down.

Sahih Muslim, Book 17, Number 4211:
"Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that a Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) who had committed adultery. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to the Jews and said: What do you find in Torah for one who commits adultery? They said: We darken their faces and make them ride on the donkey with their faces turned to the opposite direction (and their backs touching each other), and then they are taken round (the city). He said: Bring Torah if you are truthful. They brought it and recited it until when they came to the verse pertaining to stoning, the person who was reading placed his hand on the verse pertaining to stoning, and read (only that which was) between his hands and what was subsequent to that. Abdullah b. Salim who was at that time with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Command him (the reciter) to lift his hand. He lifted it and there was, underneath that, the verse pertaining to stoning. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) pronounced judgment about both of them and they were stoned. Abdullah b. 'Umar said: I was one of those who stoned them, and I saw him (the Jew) protecting her (the Jewess) with his body."

Verse 43 in historical context confirms that stoning was Allah's command in the original Torah. Although parts of original Torah revealed to Moses had been corrupted, this teaching still remained in there (Levitcus 20:10).

Sahih Muslim, Book 17, Number 4214:
"Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: O Allah, I am the first to revive Thy command when they had made it dead. He then commanded and he (the offender) was stoned to death."

The verse is not a part of the quran unlike 24:2

Keep in mind the Quran was not preserved by Written form but by Memorization. And they had many other written form Aisha had her Uthman, Omar Hafsa and the list goes on.

We still have the verse of the stonning today but it is not a part of the Quran.
The old man and the old woman, if they commit adultery

[marduk]

So Muhammad came to proclaim that Allah is just as brutal in the 7th century as he was just after creation. Thanks for cheering us up with that great news. How does stoning people for having sex make sense? What makes adultery so evil that it deserves stoning?

[Ghaith]

What makes adultery so evil that it deserves stoning?

Stoning for Adultery is only for married couples.

For non married its 100 lashes 24:2

[sum]

Hello Ghaith

The point is that Muhammad stoned many people. Are you going to claim that they were all Jews? Muhammad certainly was devious as he used Jewish law when it suited his purposes but Islamic law when it suited his purposes.

It is highly significant that Allah had absolutely nothing to say in the Koran about stoning when Muhammad was stoning people. Can you explain why there was no guidance at all regarding stoning in the Koran? This is a very relevant point.

My conclusion is that this matter is another pointer that Allah was actually Muhammad and that is why there was no criticism in the Koran by Allah of Muhammad who stoned when at times he should have lashed.

Allah specifies crucifixion, beheading, amputations, lashings and exile yet he did not utter a word about stoning. I believe that the goat eating the verses regarding stoning was probably true as that would explain why Muhammad stoned yet it was not in the Koran. This is the most logical explanation. The Koran has not been safeguarded and is incomplete.

sum

[ringmaster]

..................... I believe that the goat eating the verses regarding stoning was probably true as that would explain why Muhammad stoned yet it was not in the Koran. This is the most logical explanation. The Koran has not been safeguarded and is incomplete.

sum

So I guess that means muslims have their trinity too??

Allah, muhammad & the holy goat????

[Ghaith]

Hello Ghaith

The point is that Muhammad stoned many people. Are you going to claim that they were all Jews? Muhammad certainly was devious as he used Jewish law when it suited his purposes but Islamic law when it suited his purposes.

It is highly significant that Allah had absolutely nothing to say in the Koran about stoning when Muhammad was stoning people. Can you explain why there was no guidance at all regarding stoning in the Koran? This is a very relevant point.

My conclusion is that this matter is another pointer that Allah was actually Muhammad and that is why there was no criticism in the Koran by Allah of Muhammad who stoned when at times he should have lashed.

Allah specifies crucifixion, beheading, amputations, lashings and exile yet he did not utter a word about stoning. I believe that the goat eating the verses regarding stoning was probably true as that would explain why Muhammad stoned yet it was not in the Koran. This is the most logical explanation. The Koran has not been safeguarded and is incomplete.

sum

Problems sum, you need to read what i wrote instead of just writing out of the blue.

The quran never mentiones anything about stoning married how ever it adresses non married 24:2 but god did tell Muhammad s.a.s to stone married people if they did commit adultury. And this why Omar misunderstood whether to write down when this was revealed or not That Muhammad didnt want it to be written down. You se not every Surah god revealed is suppose to be a part of the Quran.

The goat issue is really irrelavnt to make any claim that it was in the quran but i was lost as quran was not preserved by writing but my Memory. Untill it was compiled under Uthman.

[ringmaster]

................

The goat issue is really irrelavnt to make any claim that it was in the quran but i was lost as quran was not preserved by writing but my Memory. Untill it was compiled under Uthman.

You mean there is no muslim trinity???

[sum]

Hello Ghaith

Your quote -
but god did tell Muhammad s.a.s to stone married people if they did commit adultury.

Please provide your reference.

sum

[Ghaith]

Hello Ghaith

Your quote -
but god did tell Muhammad s.a.s to stone married people if they did commit adultury.

Please provide your reference.

sum

Ive already did. Read above.

[sum]

Hello Ghaith

Your post -
sum wrote:
Hello Ghaith

Your quote -
but god did tell Muhammad s.a.s to stone married people if they did commit adultury.

Please provide your reference.
sum

Ghaith
Ive already did. Read above.

You did not provide any Koranic reference regarding stoning. You mentioned Omar but provided no reference. The bottom line is that there is no Koranic reference regarding stoning yet Muhammad stoned when the Koran demands lashing. If Allah really existed and his Koran really mattered he would have made sure that his Koran was made good and stoning as a punishment was included. It wasn`t, was it? What conclusion can we draw from this? It would be more than reasonable to claim that Allah does not exist and that Allah was really Muhammad who had reached such a position of power that it did not matter as he could do as he wanted and no-one would dare challenge him. It could be claimed that Allah changed his mind about stoning for all time and so used his power to programme a goat to eat and destroy what he had earlier said. The goat, as ringmaster said, must have been a "holy goat".

So far, you have come up with no reasonable explanation for the lack of guidance in the Koran regarding stoning.

sum

[Ghaith]

Sum

You did not provide any Koranic reference regarding stoning.

Ive already told you there are not any.

Muhammad stoned when the Koran demands lashing.

The quran does not demand lashing, 24:2 is for those who are not married.

The quran does not have a punishment on stoning. A goat ate the verse of stoning(fabricated hadith).
There was no surah on stoning at all. Yet god told Muhammad to stone. And even if he did not the torah did.

[MesMorial]

The verses in the opening post have been misinterpreted, and it is short work to explain.


***


The fact that it is in the Torah is probably why it was added into Islam.

However, the Qur'an makes no distinction between married and unmarried folks. The word "zani" does not suddenly change. If you look at 24:1-10, it becomes clear married folks are not stoned.

For the Qur'an to live up to its claim, there can be no specific religious punishment which it does not prescribe. Nowhere is stoning commended, thus it contradicts principle.

The holy goat story is hearsay, thus invalid (4:87, 45:6).

viewtopic.php?f=21&t=4511&start=0

[sum]

Hello MesMorial

If what you say is true how does that place Muhammad if he stoned? I know that you disregard the ahadith but in the "theoretical" situation where stoning is done is Muhammad transgressing Koranic guidance?

sum