are there good things about Muhammad?Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
I guess you have to start/open a new thread to follow up on the discussion... I don't want to  Ali Sina said, "If I am asked do I hate Muslims? Then my honest answer is yes". "I am against Islam". " I hate Islam". And also said, "I believe that Judaism is a religion of “nonsense”, those who believe in it are “filled with bigotry and hate”
Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
Sadly, Muslims are living in hell. Mr. Eagle, clean up your act before preaching. Why there is no freedom of religion in Muslim countries? वासुदेव कुटुम्बकम्।
ساری دنیا ايک ہی خاندان ہۓ۔ The Whole World is a Family.
Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
Eagle,
As I said, the standard definition of "unbeliever" - according to Muslims and the Quran - is anyone who is not an obedient Muslim. All others, even those who "believe" in other things, are unbelievers. As in "slay them wherever you find them".
Quite predictable for a Muslim to defend his own scriptures by pointing fingers at others, as if there being something stupid or illogical in another faith somehow lessens the stupidity of the same message in YOUR faith. But to take a short diversionary detour, the bible does mention "hardening" the hearts of various OT kings. In Deuteronomy and Joshua, God is described as having "sealed" the hearts of "already disbelieving" rulers, and especially Pharaoh in Exodus, which Paul references in Romans. You must really be out of the loop if you don't realize what occurred in the Old Testament has significantly less weight than Christ's words (this NT reference after all was Paul's words). IMO (and I'm not alone in this), many of the actions of God in the OT were incompatible with Christ's teachings. As far as I am concerned it is immoral for ANY deity to "harden anyone's heart to the truth", but unlike you I am free to disagree with some of the words fallible humans have written. The Old testament in particular seemed to me to be an early basic morality for a simple and barbaric time. Who can justify slaughtering innocent children and plagues for the actions of one man? Not me. These are stories, for the most part, of the struggles of the Hebrew people to survive, and all they did of course was with God's blessing. But it is not meant to be an absolute guide to a Christian's life, as you well know. In many ways much of the OT was as brutal as Mohammed. And for all Christ said he "did not come to change one aspect" of the old code, he certainly DID make changes. "Turn the other cheek" obviously conflicts with "eye for an eye", and Christ clearly over-ruled the death penalty when preventing the stoning of the adulteress. No Christian patterns his life after Old Testament characters, and Christ never taught that God "seals off" and otherwise spiritually abandons ANYONE. Even the thief hanging on the cross was granted absolution and redemption. But again, what Christians believe has no bearing on what YOU believe, right? So let's get back to the topic: Muslims believing every word in the Quran, and being OK with God sealing off certain people's chances for redemption.
I KNOW you have "addressed it", but obviously not very well IMO. OK, I'll try once more to break your through your conditioning with a little logic. If as you say, all those whom God "seals off" have already done it to themselves by their selfishness and evil, and God knows that they will never turn to the "right path", then what is the point of sealing us off and increasing our unbelief himself, if we have already accomplished this ourselves? It is overkill, right? I mean, if Allah had revealed the verse in the Quran that "They tore out their eyes and blinded themselves permanently, and because of this I have BLINDED them? It would be a pointless statement, right? Does your God make repeated pointless statements in the perfect book for all time? So which is it? Does Allah interfere with my free will and ability to eventually see the light by "sealing" me, or does he make pointless personal-responsibility statements for things that have already been accomplished by others?
I wonder why Mohammed didn't "restore the truth" of "Thou shall not kill" and "Turn the other cheek", and "Blessed are the peacemakers". Were those "forgotten" too? Was not Isa a prophet? Are prophet's words not from God? So what happened to Christ's message of absolute peace an universal brotherhood and non-violence? Was all this "distorted" too? -
Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
No you dont know otherwise you would have paid attention to this from several posts ago: God causes the death of their spiritual senses as a natural consequence of their advanced level of spiritual degradation. Their spiritual senses are caused to die just like Allah causes the physical death of the one who would countinuously mutilate himself. The consequence of such spiritual condition is the incapacity to react positively to guidance and accept it, due to a deep aversion to it whenever the person comes in contact with it. This natural law has been decreed by God and is meant as a spiritual punishement of the the most obdurate sinners in this world. A similar situation is described in 7:100-1 where Allah sets a seal over the spiritual senses of the people who transgress repeatedly and reject continuously the guidance no matter how clearly it is explained to them, so that as a punishement for their attitude, they remain in darkness until death takes them. One causes himself to reach that point where he can no longer react positively to spiritual guidance until his appointed time comes 3:178,7:182-3,68:43-5. The phenomenon is attributed to Allah since He has decreed this law of cause and effect but the seal comes from the person himself 41:5"And they say: Our hearts are under coverings from that to which you call us, and there is a heaviness in our ears, and a veil hangs between us and you".
No thats not the standard definition of a disbeliever and if you humbly ask for a proper education on this point, i'll give it to you with verses from the Quran as evidence
YEs, slaying those that broke the covenants despite the believers honoring them, and attacked the Muslims first a is clear from the context of that specific verse
Quite predictable for a Christian to play the victim card whenever his hypocrisy is exposed. And besides i provided a lengthy explanation of the topic before even speaking of what your scriptures say on the subject
How can Pharao be already disbelieving when the guidance has not even come to him yet. Your OT makes it clear that his heart was hardened otherwise it would have frustrated Yahweh's original plan of destroying him
You must be an ignorant of your own books to ignore the fact that Jesus quotes from Isaiah's book, thanks Yahweh for having made the truth obscure to certain people in Matt11:20-25, distances himself from the spiritually unclean while calling them dogs and pigs Matt7:6, spoke to the spiritually dead purposely in parables in order to confirm Isaiah's words Mk4:10-12,Matt13:13-15"Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand. And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed..lest at any time they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them".
Yet Jesus constantly quotes from it, including promising a disaster similar to the people of Galilee with all the atrocities depicted in the OT to befall those who reject him
Not only Yahweh's blessing, but it was under a direct command from Him to loot, plunder, rape, capture and invade territories not even in self-defense but for territorial expansion. You can lookup for example, that book from where Jesus likes quoting Isa13:15-18. Also go lookup Numbers31:17-18,Deut20 etc
What i very well know is that Jesus tells you to abide by the laws of the OT to the letter, just as he did throughout his life contrary to paul who declared it obsolete to please his gentile audience
Bring examples
No it doesnt because it does not speak of passivity in the face of aggression or when one's life is threatened, for Jesus prophecised the divine retribution of a people consequently to rejecting and attempting to kill him, instead of remaining silent. Tht is because JEsus, just like Noah, Lot and others were not ordered by God to pick up arms with their few followers and fight back as the prophets Moses and Muhammad were told to do despite the enemy forces being overwhelmingly more powerful than them and their followers. The passage does not prevent one from seeking justice when unjustly harmed, for Jesus did not "turn the other cheek" when slapped at the court, and instead seeked an explanation for the wrong he was made to suffer Jn18:22-3, besides Paul's case who not only did not "turn the other cheek" when slapped at the court but also revolted himself Acts23:1-3"God will strike you, you whitewashed wall! You sit there to judge me according to the law, yet you yourself violate the law by commanding that I be struck!" Besides, to argue that Jesus meant passivity in all circumstances would be in contradiction condemning all the soldiers of the Christian world who your movement actually praises, supports, and finances, as well as the soldiers of the past through whom Yahweh "fought" certain people Joshua10:14,42,23:3,Deut2 And before you pull out other alleged "love" verses such as the "love your enemy and neighbors" one, you should be aware that Jesus foretold the punishment of the Israelites, similar to the people of Galilee. He attacked the Pharisees and Jewish scribes in public, exposing their hypocrisy. He kicked out the money-lenders from the Temple when it was within his own power, besides threatening the Israelites with divine judgment, which includes destruction, for their rejection of him and calling their religious leaders and scribes all sorts of names from "serpents", "race of vipers" to "sons of hell" or calling them "hypocrites" and "blind fools" in public, called their generation "wicked and adulterous", told his followers to "Leave them; they are blind guides", compared them to "whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean", "full of hypocrisy and wickedness" compared them to "unmarked graves, which men walk over without knowing it" and when one of the pharisees objected with "when you say these things, you insult us" Jesus continued his truthfull admonition until he finished with the terrible sentence that "this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world". Therefore as a punishement in this very world for their spiritual blindness and rejection of him he purposely spoke in complicated parables to create confusion in the minds of those kind of people outside his followers, and avoid them turning to God and repenting Mk4:10-12. In fact, not only did he not love and pray for his oppressors who persecuted and put him and his handful of powerless followers in a corner, ultimately brutaly murdering them, but he consoled his companions by telling them to hold fast, for the time is surely coming that God would bring forth his justice and judgement in this world through the Paraclete, and that further, Jesus' name will be honored in a world where neither he or his apostles werent given any. Jesus' "love your enemy" in Matt5:38-48 certainly therefore does not refer to all kind of enemies, only to a certain type, those to whom if replied with good and magnanimity may reform themselves and become our friends, as stated in the Quran "It may be that Allah will bring about friendship between you and those whom you hold to be your enemies among them". It is a call to try and show love to those who do not necessarly love us, with the hope of them changing their attitude towards us.
No he didnt. Besides the fact that Jn8:7 is not found in earlier manuscripts, and the earliest known codex in which these passages are found are that dated to the 4th century, during the alleged incident, Jesus is maintaining his position against the Israelite elite for their soulless manipulation of the Law, while still maintaining the integrity of the Law and never denying a single letter from it because they wanted to push him to comit blasphemy and transgress it publicly, as Jesus started attracting plenty of attention for his preaching of the hypocrisy of the Pharisees and their man-made laws. They wanted to create a situation where Jesus would be humiliated, making him claim that the law of the Torah was nullified. But the contrary happened, Jesus pointed out that they are all known sinners, besides pointing to their hypocrisy throughout his ministry, so where is their moral authority coming from to testify against her? He said this because she was in a state of true and profound repentence, and therefore there was no need for the punishment similarly as the Quran prescribes in such cases. It was a slap on the face of hypocritical scribes and Pharisees. Nowhere in this verse, nor in the entire NT, does Jesus deny the law of the Torah as it pertains to the execution of the adulter in Lev20:10,Deut22:23-24. If he did, he would have simply said that the punishment for stoning is not what God desires or that it is abolished. Instead, when the woman and Jesus were still standing alone together he asked her if there was anyone left to condemn her, if there were any credible witnesses left. He did not tell her that the law of Moses for the adulterer was wrong and unjust. When she said no, then he told her to leave her life of sinning. This was a conditional clause, based on the absence of any truthful witnesses.
Christ actually thanks Yahweh for having made the truth obscure to certain people in Matt11:20-25, distances himself from the spiritually unclean while calling them dogs and pigs Matt7:6, spoke to the spiritually dead purposely in parables in order to confirm Isaiah's words according to which certain disbelievers will not turn back, ie their faith is already sealed in this world Mk4:10-12,Matt13:13-15
Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
Eagle,
I have made it clear that I disagree with a GREAT many things in the bible, so how is it hypocrisy to ask YOU to defend what YOU believe?
Obviously Christ did not mean to let yourself be killed. Self-defense is always permitted. The reason he referred to a "slap" being something to ignore, is to show that a minor transgression or insult should be ignored so that things do not escalate to violence and murder. This is something Mohammed absolutely ignored in his example. The expulsion of the banu qaynuqa, the murdered poets, all of the people Mohammed had killed (in admittedly disputed hadith) for insulting him, all of these things are testaments to his evil reversal of Christ's wise and peaceful teaching. I mean, compare "turn the other cheek" with quran 33:61.
"Attacked" the Pharisees and scribes. Wow, did he use a flame thrower? He used words, Eagle. Words. He didn't use Mohammed's favorite method of attack: the sword. He called a spade a spade, and a sinner a sinner. I would never blame ANY prophet - even Mohammed - for simply pointing out sinful behavior and predicting punishment. How is a messenger of God supposed to get his point across without calling out sinful behaviour when he sees it? But Jesus maintained a policy of non-aggression. Even when being arrested, he told his followers to put away their weapons and healed an injured Roman. (Compare this to when Mohammed was threatened with arrest in Mecca). And the adulteress, though saved form physical violence as a punishment, was still rebuked to "sin no more".
"Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do". (This contrasts nicely with "slay them wherever you find them") Are you still going with that ridiculous assertion that the paraclete, the comforter, the counselor, the advocate , is MOHAMMED? lol. JOHN 14:15-17: "If you love me you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father and He will give you another Comforter to be with you forever - the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him for he lives with you and will be in you." JOHN 14:25, 26: "All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." Does Mohammed the illiterate caravan-raider and conqueror really sound like a "comforter" and "counselor" to you? The SPIRIT OF TRUTH? This is a guy who couldn't tell whether it was God or the Devil talking to him, by voice or by message. The Paraclete is the Holy Spirit, not a 7th century desert warlord.
Matt 6 is advice not to bother preaching to people not YET ready to hear you. Your words will be trampled in the mud and crap. 6 "Do not give dogs what is sacred; do not throw your pearls to pigs. If you do, they may trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces." But the next line shows that ALL are invited to the truth if they but ask. NOBODY gets SEALED permanently by God. 7 “Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." Mark 4 10-12 simply states that some people learn better with parables. It's like how I have to continually use analogies to get through to Muslims. People who are so locked into one way of thinking need metaphors. It's like I keep asking you what the purpose of sealing something that has already been sealed? So I use the parable of a man who says he blinded a man who had already torn his eyes out. Christ speaks in parables because otherwise some people will no understand, and tries to teach them repeatedly by using metaphors, instead of going the Allah route and "sealing" them forever. Their religious "blindness" is clearly something they have done to THEMSELVES, God is not "increasing their disease" of unbelief. Jesus makes it clear that, should they eventually see the light, he "would heal them". 13 This is why I speak to them in parables: "Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand. 14 In them is fulfilled the prophecy of Isaiah: " 'You will be ever hearing but never understanding; you will be ever seeing but never perceiving. 15 For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' For all his metaphors and subtle language, Jesus made it plain that all can be saved if they just ask, no matter who you are or how far along in an evil life you have traveled. But AGAIN, that is what I believe about Christ, which has ZERO applicability to your defense of the quranic verses. (this is a site about Islam, you know). YOU are the one who believes it is OK for God to seal off people from the truth. I Promise this is the last time, and I hope you won't just cut and paste that nonsense again, or transparently attempt to deflect criticism of Islam onto other religions. Why would Allah need to seal us if we had already permanently sealed ourselves? -
Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
IT'S SIMPLE : YES HE IS A TRUE PROPHET
WHY? one of the many many reasons is that at the beginning of prophet Mohammed (PBUH) message , the unbelievers gathered and said that they must stop him , so they sent Alwalid ibn ul Mughira ( the richest man in Quraish) to him and said to him "Oh Mohammed , if you want money we'll give you all our money , if you want a wife we'll give you the most beautiful women in the tribe , if you want to be a king we'll make you our king , but stop your message" BUT HE REFUSED , he could have chosen to be a king and spread Islam by force on the tribe , but he wanted people to believe from their hearts , and if he wasn't a prophet , he could have chosen to stop his message and enjoy his life with money , women and authority but he lived poor and died poor and he chooses to spread the word of Allah as Allah ordered him
Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
What constitutes hypocrisy is you pointing fingers at the Quran concerning a topic you do not understand despite it having being properly explained, while the very accusations you are levelling (God directly sealing the heart of some people or the redundancy of sealing the heart of someone who is already spiritually unreceptive) are not found in the Quran but actually in your own scriptures and not only in the OT which you attempt to cowardly cop out from while Jesus abided to its laws and principles to the letter but also in the NT and in Jesus' words.
Right just as the Quran teaches us when it says correct behavior must be that of modesty and humility in society 17:37, restraining one's anger and pardonning men in the case of transient dissensions caused by the devil 3:134,4:149,17:53"speak that which is best; surely the Shaitan sows dissensions among them; surely the Shaitan is an open enemy to man" even when one's honor has been slandered with ignorance 24:22, answer evil with magnanimity when the cause of evil can be effectively repelled that way 13:22,42:40 as exemplified through the story of the Prophet Yusuf who pardonned his own brothers once he had reached a position of power and despite the fact they harmed and mistreated him 12:88-93 turning to their Lord again and again even if they have committed sins and errors without losing hope of His mercy. 24:22 also asks the believers a rethorical question; if they like that God forgives their faults, why do they not forgive other people's faults? They should therefore not ask for the hastening of evil instead of the good for the one who is now regarded and misjudged as an ennemy can very well become a friend 17:11,60:7. They are called to piety, God-consciousness, treating others as they would like to be treated 83:1-6 and even better yet 59:9 because what constitutes success in God's eyes is benevolence towards men 2:177 which Allah compares to an uphill climb 90:12-20, and men have been made a trial to one another, through their dealings whith eachother 25:20. Repelling evil by what is best 23:96 until 41:34"he between whom and you was enmity would be as if he were a warm friend". Believers are enjoined to fulfil their duties and obligations and act with justice/adl or "returning good for good" and in the same breath, are enjoined to practice ihsan. After adl, ihsan is the last stage of goodness. The doing of good in cases where man has received no benefit. A stage in which a man's nature is so inclined to good that he has not to make an effort for doing good; he does good to all people as an ordinary man does good to his own kindred, looking at the whole comunity as his kindred 16:90"Surely Allah enjoins the doing of justice and the doing of good/ihsan (to others) and the giving to the kindred". The believer is told not to turn his face away from people in contempt and consider the needy, be truthful, walk the earth and address others with humbleness, modesty and even when addressed with harshness answer with a saying of peace and gently walk away 25:63,28:55,31:18-19,33:35 because even though the use of defamatory speech may be exceptionaly justified in case a person has in some way been wronged, pardonning the evil which has been done is much preferable to God 4:148-9. The Quran however never denies the basic human right of self-defense when unjustly opressed and when one's life is in danger while forbidding any retaliation above and beyond what a person has himself received 2:190-5,16:126-8,42:39-43. The very foundations of the divine law, as taught by all Prophets, is the establishment of justice and to argue a person has no right to seek his rights is an absolute wrong. It also reiterates the law of equal retribution (lex talonis) in various types of social felonies 2:178,5:45 while making clear that the right of retribution must never exceed the harm 17:33 and finally the Quran stresses that in both cases (self-defense and social justice) the opressed or the victim may show magnanimity and forgiveness in order to grow spiritually. It says that such patient attitude is a great sign of spiritual might and courage, a blessing from Allah. More particularly in 41:34-36, the Quran has taught the best attitude, and that is to forgive and continue calling people to right and goodness, even if the people try and persecute another "And if an interference of the Shaitan should cause you mischief, seek refuge in Allah; surely He is the Hearing, the Knowing." Uprightness in conduct is commanded indiscriminately 4:86,135,5:8"Be upright for Allah, bearers of witness with justice.." for justice is "nearer to piety" and the Quran appeals to the believers' taqwa/God-counsciousness in the maintaining of that indiscriminate justice "though it may be against your own selves or (your) parents or near relatives" or even "against a hated people" 5:2"and let not hatred of a people..incite you to exceed the limits, and help one another in goodness and piety, and do not help one another in sin and aggression". The verse 4:105 is cited in a historical context where the prophet judged a matter in favor of a Jew against the Muslim despite the tense situation between the 2 groups at the time. This is in contrast with the attitude of the Jewish elite who moulded their religious system so as to allow differentiation between Israelites and non-Israelites in their dealings Deut15,23,24,etc.
Already refuted above
You mean those who treacherously attacked Muslim women and children in their palces of retreat, allied with those who wanted Muslims exterminated and whom the prophets of the OT fought and warned them not to mingle with (polytheists), who got defeated, then their fighters got killed according to their own law which they requested be applied on themselves by the very judge they designated? It is to be noted the prophet Muhammad was at war for over 13 years with various tribes, including other Jews than Bani Qurayza. If he was a war lord that loved blood as the critics claim by raising this incident, then it would be easy to provide evidence for this lust for be-heading and decapitating to establish a precedent. Banu Quayza wasn't the only tribe nor did Kinan represent all the Jews. In fact, it is well documented that Jews continued to live in that region, only to be expelled many years after the Prophet died, by Umar. They were shifted to other regions and given paid settlements.
You dont know what you're getting into and keep making yourself look dumb so dont even try. Certain poets in this particular culture were able to start and end wars by instigating hatred among different parties who otherwise would not have even fought eachother on the battlefield, they were therefore rightfully considered combattants like any soldier in a time where threats and treason were coming from all side against the nascent Muslim community, aiming at its extinction
33:60-61 tells the mischief mongers in a society that if they wish to remain in the community they must mend their ways but if they decide to remain therein while continuing to stir up hatred then the believers will be given mastery over them and these elements will not remain in the city as the Believers' neighbors obviously because of open warfare between the parties resulting in their expulsion from Medina: a prediction and a divine promise which was fulfilled in the course of time. It is in such context of battle that they will be seized and killed.
As well as other prophets who were commanded to pick up the sword such as Moses. Again, God did not command Jesus to fight just as He did not command Noah and other prophets to fight in His way, because God intended to bring down His punishment on the rejectors differently, and He did so quite severely after Jesus' departure. If the prophet Jesus was commanded to take up arms and fight in Allah's way, he would have done so as the Israelite prophets in the scriptures he upheld did before him. Jesus did everything but "pray for his enemies", he kept on promising the doom of those who rejected him after calling them all sorts of names. He remained passive in the face of opression because he knew God would not punish his rejectors through him, but differently as he prophesied in the NT. Jesus was part of an Israelite tradition of prophets. What evidence is there that he would have acted differently than the Israelite Prophets and Ishmaelite Prophet had he been commanded to, especially considering he appeals to this very tradition. Jesus proclaimed his belief in the Torah, never denying a single letter from it, never abrogating any of its barbaric laws and rituals, as well as its laws of war that allow the rabbis today to distinguish between the wars of self-defense and those of "national glory" in which case the subjugation of a people either through taxes or enslavement are allowed "When you approach a city to do battle with it you shall offer it terms of peace. And if they respond in peace and they open the city to you, then all the people in the city shall pay taxes to you and be subservient. But if they do not make peace with you, but choose to make war, you may besiege them".
Lets first determine who the paraclete ISNT before determining who he truly IS. Besides the Quran, the OT itself says that whenever the holyspirit descends on a person, this person becomes a prophet. For example when the group of Israelites heard God speak at Sinai and received the holy spirit they became prophets Numb11:16-30. They then requested not to receive collective revelation anymore Deut18. As a result of this request, the OT claerly states the only time when the holy spirit will descend again on more than one person at once will be in the messianic age (whose ushering depends on the fulfillement of specific criteria) and all will become prophets and start to prophesy Joel2:28"I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your old men will dream dreams, your young men will see visions". This further shows that the holy spirit is always linked to the field of prophethood (regular christians today claiming they have the holyspirit in them should be ably to prophesy!). Not a single criteria of the messianic age as outlined in the OT has been fulfilled until today, and neither were those criteria fulfilled at pentecost were God's spirit is alleged to have poured on several people as described in Joel, and yet we have Paul claiming the opposite throughout his writings. It follows the pentecost story is just a myth and what allegedly descended on the people could not ahve been the holy spirit, let alone the paraclete.
Right and yet he was able to strike a people in what they excelled most and who were at the peak of their literary eloquence
Wrong go there viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10956&start=60#p167760
You explain to everyone how does the holy spirit fit such description when the persecution and rejection of Jesus by his people, the murders of John the Baptist and Zechariah Matt23:30-37, along with the fact that punishement would be unleashed on the nation of Israel, were the main reasons why the apostles grieved. To comfort their grief, Jesus gave them the glad tidings of the paraclete who would honor Jesus' name and bring justice to the world. The Holy Spirit was already acting before Jesus, and during these times of sorrow for the apostles. The apostles already believed in Jesus, and according to Jn14:17 they even already experienced the indwelling of the holy spirit. If the paraclete was the holyspirit and not seperate from it then how could an indwelling phenomenon cure the reasons of their grief and bring justice considering it has always been present and did not solve anything. They grieved, among other reasons because the people did not believe in Jesus. Since the apostles already believed in Jesus then how does an indwelling paraclete resolve this particular grief? By the time of their death, the Temple was destroyed, Jerusalem was sacked by the gentiles. So how did the situation change for Jesus' followers? How does the intangible paraclete judge and convict the guilty according to Jesus' prophecies, when many of the apostles were persecuted and killed, after Jesus and after the alleged descent of the holyspirit on them at pentecost Acts4-5,7–9,12:1, 13:42-51,14:2-5,19,17–18,24:5,26:9-11,Gal1:11-16,4:29,Phil3:5-7,1Thess2:14-16. Even some prophets who received the Holy Spirit were killed by the Israelite leadership, as Jesus reported Matt23:37. Such a prophecy about the paraclete being the indwelling holyspirit would never have consoled the apostles, and it is quite clear that by "paraclete" Jesus was referring to the coming of a powerful prophet. The very first phrase of Jn14 is "Do not let your hearts be troubled". Jesus is clearing making this statement in the context of their total helplessness. In the precedent chapter Jn13 Jesus is speaking of his future betrayal, hinting to his death at the hands of the unbelievers. This added to their already existing sorrow from John and Zechariah's unjust murders which further emphasized their marginalisation and powerless situation. The disciples grieve, prior the prophecy of the paraclete, at their master Jesus' rejection by his own people and over the fact that according to Matt24, and Jn16 they will all be persecuted and slaughtered as well as "hated by all nations because of me", as repeated in Jn15. They grieved over the coming abomination and destruction of the Temple because of their nation's rejection of Jesus, and their repeated transgressions. In Matt24 Jesus was predicting gloomy days ahead which put the apostles in great distress. Their grief is about what Jesus prophesized as a whole regarding Israel. The prophecy of the paraclete comes at the climax of their grief, after he annouces his disciples' future torments, his impending death, betrayal and denial by his close disciple Jn16:6"Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief". He comforts their troubled hearts by giving them the glad tidings of the paraclete, a powerful salvific figure who will put an end to this injustice which he and his followers suffered by judging the guilty, bringing justice and honoring Jesus in a world where he wasnt given any Jn16"and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged" he will convict those who rejected Jesus as a worthless liar. As Jesus prophesized many times in the NT, the rejectors were going to be punished for their rejection. For example, he alludes to this in the parable of the King, His Son, and the Servants. The paraclete will receive revelation, will establish justice and convict the guilty. That never happened in the life of the apostles. Men will see this person, and judgement will be laid down, because the people rejected Jesus. Did the apostles ever judge the world and condemn the guilty after allegedly receiving the indwelling Paraclete at Pentecoste? Did judgement ever descend on the gentiles at the hands of the apostles? It never did.
And it seems the Quran will keep refuting your false charges as it states all prophets were confronted to the suggestions of evil spirits, trying to interfered with their desire to establish the tuth, by passing off as revelation something that isnt but they never succeeded and God immidiately canceled and defeated their attempts 22:51-54,41:26,68:9,10:15,17:73-4. In those verses the Quran relates how the opponents of the prophet did everything to corrupt God's communications and how He protected His messenger, annuled their attempts and established the true revelation instead and history bears testimony to this
Of course all those who ask will find guidance as corroborated in the Quran but some people will not and cannot as stated by Jesus when he thanks Yahweh for having made the truth obscure to certain specific people in Matt11:20-25. Could Pharao and other personalities of the OT turn back to God once their hearts were hardenned BY GOD?
No thats not what it says, Jesus clearly states in it that he keeps speaking in parables to the spiritually blind "IN ORDER THAT" they do not understand "OTHERWISE they might turn and be forgiven". Note that this passage is a direct reference to Isa6 where it speaks of God hardening the hearts of people OTHERWISE they might turn and repent. THAT is a DIRECT action by Yahweh preventing people from the rigth path as He is alleged to have done to Pharao
Just as stated in the Quran when it outlines the type of behavior that brings upon onself the seal of the spiritual senses
Their spiritual disease is increasing all the more they are spoken to in parables and kept away from the right path purposefully by Jesus. That is without even mentionning the case of Pharao who wasnt given any chance and whose heart was sealed even prior to the guidance having reached him. As already properly explained, the Quran attributes both the increase of the disease of the spiritually blind, as well as the increase of the faith of the Believer to God because it is according to the laws of causality He has established that the person who seeks guidance, asks for it and acts accordingly will find his "breast" expanded while the one who keeps indulging in a specific behavior of spiritual self-destruction and transgression will have his spirituality degenerating more and more until it is finally dead. In 2:26 as in many other places already referenced, God states how a one and the same statement can cause either further disbelief or increase in faith.
You're repeating what was already properly explained to you. The people do it to themselves gradually and the phenomenon is attributed to God since He has decreed it just like He has decreed physical death. Go back to the first post on the topic there viewtopic.php?f=20&t=10522&start=440#p167772 it is the last time i respond on this particular point Last edited by Eagle on Tue Nov 22, 2011 4:14 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
Boy eagle spits out something that needs proper response.. let us see how friends respond to that hard hitting post at Homer Jay in defense of indefeasible.
Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
what religion should i choose?
anything but islam? please say one.
Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
Why do you need to be part of a religion? Just can't get by without telling something how great it is even though it does absolutely nothing? That's a weird need. Try just living your life. I know it sounds crazy, but give it a try. You'll be surprised how much more you will get done when you're not on your knees much of the time acting like a crazy person. Any "religion" now in existence is a waste of time. If it involves "worship", it's one of the ancient religions from the idol worshiping days. All Abrahamic religions are idol worship format. The idol is just said to reside in the heavens rather than on the earth and there's only one of them. It's apparently in the form of a man who sits on a throne, much like the gods of Sumeria. A very crude conception of the divine, to say the least. Of course, the real divinity doesn't have a body or a throne nor does it want or accept worship. It simply exists. No human has ever accurately described it in any religion. What would the point of worshiping it be? It doesn't care. Why would it? Is it like a woman who can be won over by flattery? It wouldn't be divine if it was that crude.
Think what a cruel trick it would be if the real God had a rule that everyone goes to hell unless they believe in him and then he only revealed himself to a few Jews and one Arab. Everybody else is out of luck, because they are completely unaware that Allah even exists and that they are required to worship him in order to avoid hell. That's like Obama saying to one of his buddies "I am going to torture every American who doesn't believe that I am the Great Muslim, go tell everybody about it. No, I won't be there to confirm what you say is true and if anyone asks I will have no comment. Don't worry, they'll believe you. You're an Arab trader. Everybody believes Arab traders. Why don't I just tell them myself? Oh, brother, you are so naive. That would be too easy. It's like why doesn't the evil guy in James Bond movies just shoot James Bond instead of using elaborate contraptions that never work? Nobody knows, that's just the way it is".
Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
MArduk, Prophet Muhammad presented the Most wonderful Book of God called Qur-an though he was a totally illiterate person. The book is still available with out any change as a proof.
Even if the worlds people were to put the weight of the moon on one of my hands, and the sun on the other. I would still not lose hope in Allah, and his Prophet(SAWS). Muhammad(SAWS) thought that his uncle would let him down when Makkah was forcing in on him, and would no longer support him, so he replied: "O my uncle! by God if they put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left on condition that I abandon this course, until God has made me victorious, or I perish therein, I would not abandon it."
Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
frankiy, dear, people of meccah (polytheist) plotted and attempted to kill him (prophet) on more than one occasion, and when the Prophet escaped to Medina, they rallied the majority of the Arab tribes and waged many wars against him. Yet, when he entered Mecca victorious with an army of 10,000, he did not take revenge on anyone. The Prophet said to the Quraish:
“O people of Quraish! What do you think I will do to you? Hoping for a good response, they said: “You will do good. You are a noble brother, son of a noble brother.” The Prophet then said: “Then I say to you what Joseph said to his brothers: ‘There is no blame upon you.’ Go! For you all free!.”
Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
Uncung & Co If you say so. btw How did Mohammed further the cause of Islam, and how did his followers, immediately after his time do the same?
Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
That is the biggest lie Muslims perpetuated since the beginning of Islam and they still do to defend Muhammad. I don't think you have read the life of Prophet of Islam Uncung ., let me give you here a brief year by year account of Prophet of Islam for you. Chronological History of of Prophet Mohammad PBUH's life..
We must realize until this time i.e. year 595., there is no big deal about that young fellow Mr. Mohammad., no hint of any God/Allah choosing him as his/her/its messenger.. But many of the so-called Islamic religious teachers write so much nonsense about this guy even before that alleged Allah revelations took place in that Hira cave.
Again We must also realize here until this time that is year 619 Mohammad and his Islam is nothing but a local feudal class fighting with each other for power with in couple of towns. His REAL ISLAM started after the death of his first wife Khadija.
and Uncung that is the life Prophet Muhammad(PBUH) from Muslims themselves and those are the last 13 years of Muhammadan Islam that took entirely different turn., We will discuss in detail that perscution., Now you should write bit more details on your belief that people of meccah (polytheist) plotted and attempted to kill him (prophet) on more than one occasion, with some proof.. with best wishes yeezevee
Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
you dont understand, that's your lack of education and understanding. Scripture languages are different from run of the mill language. The old texts in Aramaic and old Hebrew are no longer spoken the way they were back then. Greek hasn't changed much though.
The Quran is on a pedestal of it's own. There is no other book with the same language in the Arabic language. There is no other book like it before or since and it can be called true scripture as not only are it's contents unexplained but so is it's origin as the best books of that era in any language do not come close to it. So you need to separate all the facts from the fiction rather then subjectively bundling things together.
Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
Eagle,
This is getting pointless. You still don't have the intellectual honesty to answer a direct question. Ask me any question and I'll answer it.
I'M the coward? I have reiterated MANY times that I disagree with a great many things in the "bible", particularly Yahweh's wanton cruelty in the OT. It's one of the reason I'm no longer a practicing Christian. I disagree with the line about "women being silent in the temple" and about the ONLY way to salvation is by following Christ, for instance. I am also VERY leery about Christ's refusal to condemn the actions of most OT "prophets", even though their (and Yahweh's) actions DIRECTLY conflict with his personal message. I've been taught that his rather legalese equivocation was to "ease" the people into the new paradigm, that to so shock them with huge changes would alienate them and get him killed for heresy or blasphemy. And so he says things like "It is YOU you have called me the son of God", almost like he's playing semantic games or afraid to tell the truth. I never liked that argument, even when it is used to explain Mohammed's "gradual" removal of slavery, for instance. To my mind, a prophet or Messiah or son of God should not be afraid of being "tricked" by pharisees. And yet others have argued Christ's defense of OT barbarity was added in to not alienate potential Jewish converts. Because anyone with a brain knows that, regardless of his claim to not change a bit of the "old law", his every word and deed DID strive to change it. The Old Law mandated death for numerous infractions, and yet Christ made it clear over and over that vengeance is the Lord's domain. This is clearly antithetical to OT regulations. But regardless, that is my last word on Christianity. I have stated how I feel about any deity interfering with one's ability to see the truth, and I will not worship any God that "increases by disease". I am free to question and disagree with aspects of what I was taught, while you seem not to be. There is no apostasy sword hanging over MY head should I question whether bees eat all fruits or the sun sets in a muddy pond or any other aspect of my "book". Next time you call someone a coward have the decency to at least quote the DIRECT QUESTION I kept asking which you are seemingly afraid to address (you'd rather go on and on about Christ).
I'm not talking about pardoning people whose insults are attributed to Shaitan. Of course "the Shaitan is an open enemy to man" (funny how you don't quote “…for the Unbelievers are unto you open enemies.” (Surah An-Nisa, 4/101), I'm talking about personal silly little mean-spirited insults, like Abu Afak and Asma calling Mohammed a fraud and a caravan-raider, of a banu qaynuqa goldsmith trapping a Muslim woman's skirt, or of Meccan girls who laughed at Mohammed (and were later executed after he took their city). All these MINOR insults Mohammed told his men were best handled, NOT with a sliding scale based on severity of insult, but with "a horrible murdering", or banishment from their homes.
What are you talking about? There's no "golden rule" in the verses you quote - [2.117] Wonderful Originator of the heavens and the earth, and when He decrees an affair, He only says to it, Be, so there it is. All that says is Allah is all-powerful. We got that. God is Greatest! And any other verses exhorting people to be good to each other are for the BELIEVERS (Muslims). You should "take not the Jew and Christian for your friend, for they...". And it's even worse for people NOT "of the book".
Oh please. If the Quran truly mandated equal justice before the law, then please explain why EVERY Muslim state throughout history has mandated the "blood money" restitution option in their justice system be heavily weighted in the Muslims' favor? Steal from a non-Muslim=1 goat , steal from a Muslim=10 goats, that sort of thing. Muslim justice has NEVER been indiscriminate. The dhimmi has always been held to a different legal and behavioral standard. All your verses about equal treatment refer to "amongst Muslims", not pigs and apes.
The qaynuqa didn't "attack innocent women and children in their places of retreat". You must be referring to the Meccan forces sent out to stop Mohammed's incessant attempts to attack innocent merchant caravans, killing and enslaving and ransoming the merchants therein. All the qaynuqa did was reject Mohammed's claim of prophethood and insulted him. And like a vengeful egotist, he took petty revenge on them when he had enough swords at his back. And as for the qurayza, regardless of whether you or I believe their leaders broke a non-aggression treaty (they may well have done so), where was the mercy and forgiveness you're always quoting? Mohammed had them in his power, he could have just executed their leaders. But he killed in cold blood all the men above puberty. This is the merciful man you follow? (and please don't hide behind the Jew Mohammed "appointed" to adjudicate, that's pathetic. Mohammed had the final say, of course he knew how he'd rule).
Yes, please continue with the personal insults, it at least tells me you have the decency to be embarrassed by these hadith. Are you seriously telling me that an old woman, nursing her children, deserved to have one of Mohammed's men sneak into her bedchamber and knife her as he nursed her babies? And by murdering this "poet", he was PREVENTING war? That is truly a pathetic excuse. I am aware that at that time the "poetry" of the day was more like social commentary or political criticisms, a sort of verbal rhyming newspaper editorial. Mohammed - plain and simple - murdered civilian critics. End of story. By your reasoning any political leader would be justified in killing his critics, as such commentary could cause "treason and conflict" and lead to war and extinction (and the world blowing up). Pathetic. I thought you'd at least toe the party line and say the hadiths' chain of transmission were unreliable.
"Be given mastery over them". You mean KILL them and ROB them of their homes! Where is your vaunted "degree of punishment fits severity of crime"? Only for Muslims I guess. These people were MISCHIEF makers, insulters and slanderers! These crimes do not merit banishment and "horrible murdering". Can't you see that this was unjust? This is not how a human treats a human, it's how a human treats a pig or ape. Where again is the mercy I keep hearing about?
You're right that a lot of people, even Christians disagree that the paraclete referred to the Holy Spirit. IMO it seems the best conclusion. But Mohammed? That's laughable. He fits NONE of the criteria, both in deed and character. I notice you raise a lot of the valid arguments against the Holy Spirit being the prophesied Paraclete, yet neglect to apply that same standard of proof to Mohammed's being him. YOU are the one who claimed here he was Mohammed, after all.
The prophets WERE confronted by evil spirits, and were tested thereby. Even Christ was tempted by the Devil. The telling thing about Mohammed was that (if we assume the satanic verses incident occurred) he was unable to tell BY THE CONTENT who was speaking to him. A prophet of God should at least be able to tell when the Devil is telling him obviously heretic or evil things. A mortal cannot be expected to distinguish the form or voice of a powerful spirit, but he should at the very least be able to tell by the message if he's talking to God or the Devil! Or else of what value was Mohammed? Was he just a secretary taking dictation, ready to preach anything and everything he heard in the cave?
No they could not. As I've said, if Yahweh truly was actively hardening Pharaoh's heart, then that was an immoral act and I condemn it as much as I do the passover slaughter of innocents. But then it comes back to you again (the point of the thread), do YOU condone a deity hardening hearts? I don't.
There you go again. You are changing tenses and the ACTOR in these verses. Allah hardens and INCREASES. HE does it, not "their spiritual disease IS INCREASING", as if it is happening all on its own or just by them. If as you claim the attribution of this "hardening" is simply another way of saying that Allah knows what will be and is the creator of all - like saying "Allah causes the sun to rise every day" - then why does he state that he, PERSONALLY increases their disease? This is not simply noting that the sinners are hardening their own hearts, or "They are increasing their disease due to their repeated sinfulness and rejection of Allah". NO, Allah is doing it. It's a simple question. Only takes a little guts to answer it. -
Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
You were effectively educated on every falsehood you attempted to convey, from the alleged redundancy in sealing the heart of those that are already spiritually unreceptive, to whether the seal comes as a result of one's actions or not, to Muhammad being a conquerer, thief etc
Your cowardness consists in attempting to draw a line between the teachings of the OT and those of Jesus while he not only upheld its stories and cruelties (such as promising the doom of his rejecters similar to the people of Galilee) but also practiced its teachings to the letter and told his followers to do the same
You have failed to present a single such instance
Go there and get a proper education viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10956&p=167996#p167978
Why do you then claim to follow the one -Jesus- who increases in disbelief those who are spiritually blind by speaking to them in parables OTHERWISE they might turn back and repent
16:69"Then eat of all the fruits (thamaraat) and walk in the ways of your Lord submissively. There comes forth from within it a beverage of many colours, in which there is healing for men; most surely there is a sign in this for a people who reflect" The Arabic for fruit in the sense of apples, oranges etc. is faakiha as in 38:51,43:73,44:55 etc. and as any Arabic speaking person will confirm from common speak. Thamaraat (plural) comes from the verb athmara (to produce) as in 6:141 where we are told to eat from the tree's product (thamarihi) when it produces (athmara). The word implies that what the tree produces are fruits but it does not mean fruits, it literally means "the product". This means that every fakiha/fruit is thamara/product, but not every thamara is fakiha. This fact is proven from common speak as well as the Quran itself where thamaraat is used to mean earth's products from all kinds that are beneficial, also general sustenance or figuratively for the result of one's efforts etc. -16:11,28:57 (all the kinds of products from the earth, fruits included), -14:37 (Ibrahim lamenting over the bareness of the land where he left his family, and asking God to provide them with various sustenance) -2:25 (the results of one's good deeds in heaven) -2:155,18:42 (the fruit of one's effort or the wealth), 7:130 (the ruining of Firawn's crops/earth product) -2:266,47:15 (all kinds of products, fruits or else found in heaven). 16:69 says that the bee eats from all kinds of PRODUCTS at-thamaraat (not from all kinds of FRUITS fakiha). Also the verse clearly says that the bee eats from all kind of products, not from the product of all kinds as in 28:57.
I already stumped your predecessors on this particular topic and all it takes is a copy/paste of the rebuttal none of them could touch on this very site. In 37:5,70:40 the Quran speaks of the mashaariq/places of sunrise (plural), and maghaarib/places of sunset (plural) (see Lane's Lexicon http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/V ... 000265.pdf). It also speaks of the maghribayn/two places of sun set, and mashriqayn 55:17 referring to the extreme points of sunrise and sunset in summer and in winter. In all cases, the Quran clearly points to these places being ephemeral places, certainly not fixed, so there isnt one single place of sunrise or sunset but each of those ephemeral sunrises and sunset spots where one can see the sun rising or setting when looking at the horizon must be referred to with a definite article when spoken of on their own 18:86,90. Mashaariq literally means "the places where the sun rises". The east can be implicit depending on one's position on Earth however "the places where the sun rises" can also include the south or the north as happens in certain Arctic/Antarctic times of the year. Thats how accurate and consistent the Quran truly is. This is why God is called Lord of the mashaariq and maghaarib since He is the Creator and Ultimate Cause of all phenomenons in the universe, making the sun rise and set at different spots of the horizon throughout the solar year. It has nothing to do with him being the Lord of a spot in the horizon, but with Him being responsible for the movements in the universe causing the sun to rise at different spots in the horizon. And the Quran, when discribing a thing appearing on the horizon but is in fact beyond the Earth, describes its position in terms of altitude or height, not longitude as one who thought the Earth to be flat would 53:7. 18:86,90 relate some of the prophet Dhul Qarnayn journeys across the Earth. The Quran describes, as a third party observer, what he and the people he met experienced and saw in these places. 18:90 describes his arrival at the place of the rising sun, where he saw it rising. Allah is describing the scene after the event had happened, just like someone to whom i would recount my journey until i reached a place where i could see the sun rising at the horizon, would recount it. That person would say that i walked until i reached the rising place of the sun where i saw it rising but as far as im concerned, i did not know i had reached the rising place of the sun until i saw it rising at the horizon. The same applies to Dhul Qarnayn who at one point during his expedition saw the sun rising from where he was standing, and this is how he knew he had reached the rising place of the sun. In that place out of many that was worth mentionning because of a particular people he met there, the Quran says the sun was rising "on a people" specificaly. The reason for singling out a group from among those standing there and saying the sun was on them was to convey a specific image, that these were "a people to whom We had given no shelter from It" meaning the blazing sun was affecting them only as an uncivilized and primitive people who did not cover themselves or build protection against the blazing sun, contrary to Dhul Qarnayn and his men who knew how to protect themselves from it. This is why the sun rising was worth mentioning in relation to them because it affected them particularly; they suffered from it. If by Dhul Qarnayn's reaching the rising of the sun, what is meant is that he reached a place with a hole in the ground out of which the sun comes out there will need to be an explicit statement from the Quran to come to that conclusion, a statement such as it saying it rose "from below" or "behind" or "in front of a people" instead of "on a people" otherwise nothing excludes this place being a spot from where the sun can be seen rising if one looks at the horizon. Obviously, there arent so many of those places around us and one must go to special and particular places to see it rising and setting at the horizon. Reaching the place of the rising sun does not mean the sun could be seen rising physically a few meters away, that place extends from the spot where one is standing to the physical position of the sun in outter space. For example i stand on an airport runway and see planes rising on people walking there, this doesnt mean i can see where the planes took off from especially if that "runway" extends far beyond the horizon. Similarly in 18:86, no civilisation ever believed, including the pre-Islamic Arabs, that the sun would sink in the water at night. People instead thought the sun rose and set at the flat Earth's edges which is why it should have said he found it setting behind the water, not in it had it meant Dhul Qarnayn reached a spot of physical sunset. The message of this verse is that he reached a spot where he stopped his progress because of a water expanse described as aynin/abundance of water which could refer to an ocean just as it could be a sea, or a vaste lake etc and that at this spot where he met a people, he saw the sun setting in the water which is what anyone sees when looking at the horizon of a vaste water expanse. The verses are not interested in speaking of the places where the sun physically rises or sets, but in describing what the prophet king Dhul Qarnayn saw on his expeditions, more specifically the people he met which is why it speaks of several of his journeys including one inside a valley where his sight was blocked by the mountains and couldnt therefore see the sun rising nor setting 18:93. A legitimate question one might ask is why mention these places of sunrise and sunset considering Dhul Qarnayn probably saw many sunsets and sunrises on his journeys. The answer is that after seeing many of those during his expeditions, he reached one of the countless places where the sun sets and rises if one looks at the horizon and these specific places were worth mentionning, contrary to all the spots where he could see the sunrise and sunset when looking at the horizon, because he met in them particular people whose characteristics are given in the verses 18:86-90 (disbelievers deserving punishement at the setting of the sun, very primitive people at the rising of the sun). Keeping in mind that the Quran repeatedly says there are countless rising and setting places for the sun. Dhul Qarnayn's story is that of a mighty King-Prophet who despite his monumental achievements and conquests remained humble and attributed his "being established in the land" to God's mercy. The story also speaks about the limitations man can achieve in dominion. Dhul Qarnayn, despite being a noble and pious person and being blessed by God in his dominion, was also limited in the extent of his conquests. In one conquest, he was halted by a geographical limitation, that of an abundance of water/aynin. In another conquest, he came across a people who could not understand the communciations of the King nor could they speak to him. His dominion in this area was essentially useless, despite him having power over the people. As far as Gog and Magog, Dhul Qarnayn could only establish a barrier to prevent their assaults ie he could not maintain an army in that region, and that barrier too, as Dhul Qarnayn pointed out, would ultimately collapse despite being built with the most formidable of materials. This story is part of a larger picture, teaching mankind through several parables (the sleepers, the owners of the gardens, Moses' encounter with one of God's messengers, Dhul Qarnayn and his conquests) what is the true God-counscious and God-ordained way for mankind to deal with the issues of TIME (ie how life is in God's hands with the story of the sleepers), WEALTH (the owners of the gardens), KNOWLEDGE (Moses' encounter), POWER (Dhul Qarnayn).
Not only do i address each point you try to make, but i also easily expose your hypocrisy in pointing fingers at the Quran concerning a topic you do not understand despite it having being properly explained, while the very accusations you are levelling (God directly sealing the heart of some people or the redundancy of sealing the heart of someone who is already spiritually unreceptive) are not found in the Quran but actually in your own scriptures and not only in the OT which you attempt to cowardly cop out from by claiming its teachings contrast with Jesus' who actually abided to its laws and principles to the letter, but also in the NT.
And the shaitan is the one inciting people to conflicts but if the word "shaitan" in 17:53 is causing you to itch and reject the Quran's calls for magnanimity then look at the verses referenced next to it as well as the others in that paragraph you quoted
The fact that Muslims must treat others as they would like to be treated 83:1-6 and even better yet 59:9 because what constitutes success in God's eyes is benevolence towards men 2:177.
Wrong you're confusing the verses i referenced. I did not quote 2:117 but 2:177 which says "It is not righteousness that you turn your faces towards the East and the West, but righteousness is this that one should believe in Allah and the last day and the angels and the Book and the prophets, and give away wealth out of love for Him to the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and the beggars and for (the emancipation of) the captives, and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate; and the performers of their promise when they make a promise, and the patient in distress and affliction and in time of conflicts-- these are they who are true (to themselves) and these are they who guard (against evil)." It is encouraging benevolence towards mankind and explains what constitutes true piety and righteousness
Wrong, not only the above mentionned verses do not make any distinction between believers and non-believers, you can also lookup the verses speaking of charity, how spending must 2:215"to the parents and the near of kin and the orphans and the needy and the wayfarer" whether they be Muslims or not 2:272
Wrong, these verses you vaguely allude to speak of the ennemies of Islam from the people of the book and others who took advantage of the Muslims' moments of weakness and pessimism in the face of the life threatening situations and hardships they constantly faced, by inciting strife and disunity among them 3:69,99-100,173. Some Muslims 5:52"in whose hearts is a disease", the munafiqeen (hypocrites) would yield and listen to them and take them as awliya'/guardians or protectors, so Allah reminded the Muslims that He is the One on Whom 14:12"the reliant rely", in all their endeavors. When the non-Muslims are those who 3:118"do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still", the intimate friends of the believers cannot be other than those from within the Muslim comunity who invite to the truth. When facing such non-Muslims, the believers should not listen to anyone else than the people of their comunity and concentrate their attention to maintain themselves on the path of Islam 11:112-113"Continue then in the right way as you are commanded..And do not incline to those who are unjust..you have no guardians besides Allah". Seeking the guardianship and friendship of those who are the open enemies of Islam from among the pagans and their allies from the people of the book, who mock the religion and the prayer 5:57-58, whose hatred for Muslims has already been apparent through their mouths and evidently conceil yet greater hatred in their hearts 3:118-120, making friendship with those who drove them out of their homes and oppressed them 60:1,9,13 in a time where all were eager to uproot Islam, carried the danger of turning the Muslims to their previous state of unbelief 3:149"if you obey those who disbelieve, they will turn you back upon your heels..Allah is your Guardian and He is the best of the helpers" and to turn the Muslims upon their heels is the true motivations of the enemies of Islam disguised as their friends and helpers 2:217,4:89"They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends". An open enemy should therefore be treated as an enemy, not a friend 35:6"Surely the Shaitan is your enemy, so take him for an enemy; he only invites his party that they may be inmates of the burning". Friendship is built upon the foundation of mutual love which is not the case of those who attempt to deceive the Muslims out of their faith under the guise of friendship 3:119"you are they who will love them while they do not love you". The Quran also relates how the thalimun/the oppressors from among the people of the book, because of their attitude towards the Muslims and their alliance with the pagans in times of war were 5:41"listeners for another people who have not come to you" ie they were approaching the prophet and the rest of the believers with a hidden agenda, under the guise of friendship with the Muslims. They would even proclaim belief in an effort to deceive them 5:61"they come to you, they say: We believe; and indeed they come in with unbelief and indeed they go forth with it; and Allah knows best what they concealed". In addition they "alter the words from their places, saying: If you are given this, take it, and if you are not given this, be cautious" meaning they corrupt the revelation given to the prophet Muhammad by inciting the people to select only what suits them, this was the attitude they had towards their own Law which they neglected when it did not conform to their low desires. These are the people of the book spoken of 5:57"those who take your religion for a mockery and a joke, from among those who were given the Book before you..And when you call to prayer they make it a mockery and a joke..". Nevertheless some Muslims would run to them seeking their guardianship because they feared their superior military strength 5:52"We fear lest a calamity should befall us". The Quran warns them not to take those thalimun among the people of the book and their pagan allies as their guardians 5:51,8:73 because they are infact only guarding eachother against the Muslims in particular and reminds the believers that 5:55"Only Allah is your wali/guardian and His Messenger and those who believe". Only the righteous can be eachother's guardians, guarding eachother on the straight path 8:72,9:71. Then the Quran ends by making a distinction between the people of the book of whom Muslims should be cautious 5:66"there is a party of them keeping to the moderate course". As well, Muslims can freely mingle with kindness and justice with any non-muslims who do not seek to fight Islam, do not opress Muslims unjustly 60:8-9. Love is a very active force that exercises impending influence upon each other's habits, thoughts and feelings. In times as these, the believers are to stay united in piety, guarding eachother and their precious faith, and under the guardianship of Allah 3:68,160,200,9:71,10:62"Now surely the friends of Allah, they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve. Those who believe and guarded (against evil)" because there will come a Day where earthly friends who were partners in evil will accuse one another and dissociate from eachother, after realizing that they were led astray or will be held responsible for misleading eachother 43:67"The friends shall on that day be enemies one to another, except those who guard (against evil)". 4:139"Those who take the unbelievers for guardians (awliya') rather than believers. Do they seek honor from them?" The word waly in this context alludes to a moral alliance with those who deny Islam, and the adoption of their way of life, in the hope of being "honoured" or accepted as equals, by them while "all honor is for Allah". The Muslims are not allowed to take for friends unbelievers who want the annihilation of Islam 3:118, and must even stay away from their own fathers or brothers should they enjoyn to unbelief 9:23. They must avoid the circles where Islam is being mocked and defamed 6:68,4:140"until they enter into some other discourse", and at the same time speak in the most kindly manner to the followers of other faiths who act not unjustly with them 17:53,29:46 avoid defaming or mocking whatever false deity the critic calls upon to avoid the name of Allah being defamed in return 6:108"lest exceeding the limits they should abuse Allah out of ignorance". So in the case of one's beliefs being insulted one doesnt reply with an insult, the Quran tells the believer in such case to avoid the circles where islam is being mocked 4:140, precisely to avoid such lowly behavior of mockery for mockery as described in 6:108 and further repeatedly commands the righteous to act accordingly, responding to falsehood with dignity 25:72 not ridicule or mock one another 49:11.
Not only is the above an unjust generalization unsupported by historical facts but also it does not address what the Quran actually says should be the right way to uphold justice among all people indiscriminately, and this is precisely what we are discussing and you have nothing to refute the Quran's stance on the subject other than appealing to the misbehavior of some Muslims. This again reveals how cornered and weak you are in your arguments. As if the slaughters and injustice done throughout history by Christians and in the name of Christ up to this day have any bearing on what Jesus actually taught.
A vague reference to a Quranic verse that will be again swiftly refuted. Those transgressors among the Jews to whom Allah said to "Be despised apes" for persistently transgressing the sabath, the Quran is employing a metaphor on how lowly these transgressors among them were made to be in God's eyes, as well as to the rest of the righteous community and those who kept their commandments 7:159,163-166 as denoted by the next verse were it says they have been made an example to their community and posterity. Today and as reported in the OT itself, any Jew would recognize how many of their ancestors reached the lowest spiritual degradation. Elsewhere they are compared to donkeys when they neglect the Torah 62:5. The Quran uses such metaphors for all people, not only the Jews, who reject Allah and His guidance 7:175,179,8:22,25:44 and Jesus in the Bible makes use of such metaphor as well when he compares the spiritually unclean to dogs and swine Matt7:6. The main thing distinguishing man from animals is his spirituality that caused him to be God's vicegerent on earth, a honored creature made to excel above most of God's creation 14:32-33,17:70. So when anyone forsakes that aspect of his being, rejects Divine guidance only to follow his low desires then he loses that distinction and what truly makes him excel the rest of God's creation.
Yes they did along with their Meccan allies and historical records prove it
You must be resorting to ignorance again and disregard the Quranic verses already referenced and properly explained there viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10956&start=60#p167760 speaking of Badr and Uhud as well as the motive for engaging disbelievers in battle
False. When the Quran allows slavery, it is in the context of a war imposed on us and in which we are fighting in self-defense. We are allowed to capture the ennemy, but only after having fought the threat streanously and crushed it meaning the motive for going to battle can never be the capture of war prisonners but may be a consequence of it 8:67"It is not fit for a prophet that he should take captives unless he has fought and triumphed in the land; you desire the frail goods of this world, while Allah desires (for you) the hereafter; and Allah is Mighty, Wise." See how the Quran condemns those who went to war motivated by their greed. It continues their admonishement in the next verse and the passage ends with Allah sanctionning the taking of slaves at the battlefield as a form of divine punishement 8:71"And if they intend to act unfaithfully towards you, so indeed they acted unfaithfully towards Allah before, but He gave (you) mastery over them; and Allah is Knowing, Wise." However we very well know that the enslavement of those enemies is also a form of mercy for they have to be treated with the utmost care under Muslim guardianship, thus opening their eyes to the reality of Islam and giving them the chance to reform themselves. These slaves could not be kept indefinetly and had to be freed after the war as a favor or in exchange of a ransom (in benefits of any kind or in mutual prisonners) 47:4. However it also warns against creating situations that could lead to the captivity then ransoming of slaves, through the example of the Jews of Medina who entered into alliances with waring pagan tribes and fought, killed, enslaved then freed their own brethren while considering it a "pious act" 2:83-85.
Wrong it is well recorded that they were expelled when it was known they were preparing for war behind their fortress after they were urged to honor their agreements consequently to their public humiliation of a a Muslim woman, their compositions of devisive poetry that incited hatred among Muslims and non-Muslims
The COMBATANTS were executed according to their own law, by the judge they designated themselves
Why would he show mercy, even if it was within his own power, to people who had treacherously attacked his people with the aim of exterminating them while he honored his agreements with them, in a time where the nascent Muslim comunity faced death from all sides
Bring the statement where the prophet ordered the execution of the said people
No it means EXPULSION from the community they are attempting to destroy from within, and death at the battlefield
That were given the chance to stop their mischief and treason or face expulsion and death at the battlfield. You tell me what happens to traitors plotting against your governement in times of war.
He fits each and every criteria you can bring them here one by one and i will show you how
No i didnt, i showed how it cannot be the holyspirit and how it must be a physical, salvific figure
The verses referenced cancel the possibility of such an event having occured, and even if you look at the narration, besides its weak chain of transmission and chronological errors, you will see that the alleged satanic revelation do not in anyway fit where they are supposed to have been inserted
No, and neither does the Quran
As a natural consequence of their own behavior as already properly demonstrated, that brings upon oneself the progressive natural phenomenon of spiritual death. The total degradation of their spiritual senses acts as a barrier preventing them from hearkening its message to the point that the simple mentionning of Allah in the Quran causes them immense aversion, a further shrinking of their hearts and the addition of disease upon their diseased hearts 2:10,9:125,17:46,82,21:36,39:45 as opposed to those who when hearing the Divine Name and His communications increase belief upon belief, their hearts trembling and skins shuddering 8:2,22:35,39:23. They cannot bare the hearing and the sight of the Divine calls and the ones calling them 11:20,18:101 to the point that whenever they hear the divine communications they cannot but openly dispute them 6:25. Through the calls of the Quran, Allah therefore causes the increase of the disease already existing in their hearts because its rejection brings only greater loss just as the prophet Nuh's calls caused the disbelievers in his nation to flee him even more 71:6. The Quran uses many such similitudes to demonstrate how one action (divine guidance) can have different effects depending on the internal disposition of the person and i already educated you on this particular point through 2:26. But there are plenty other examples if you still cannot get it in your head; for example it compares the heart of the spiritually aware to an intrinsically rich and fertile soil that is only waiting for rainfall -Divine guidance- to bring forth its treasures. Only those people can benefit from the blessings of the guidance who have the required capability and state of mind but others are incapable of benefiting from the divine guidance just like the bad soil either brings forth only useless thorny bushes when the same rain befalls it, or is simply washed away revealing barren solid rock bellow it 2:263-4,7:57-8. Due to your ignorance of the Quranic terminology of attributing to God the consequence of man's actions, you still cannot grasp what the Quran means by God increasing the disease of certain people CONSEQUENTLY to their behavior, ie naturally. So here are a few examples among countless others demonstrating this eloquent style. The Quranic therminology of Allah being the indirect cause of all things because of the laws of causality established and allowed by Him is reflected in many instances. In the language of the Quran everything is with God and is sent down to men 15:21. From the rain falling from the clouds 16:65 to even the most insignificant things like the clothes man wears 7:26,16:80-1 that are found in the cattle 16:5 which were themselves sent down 36:9 as is the case with iron 57:25. In 43:12 man is again reminded of that supreme reality, that it is ultimately Allah who "made" the ships on the sea, including the ship built by Noah 54:13, and other similar things man rides 36:42 for He is the Creator of all the elements that make the ship, the One in Whose entire power is the accessibility and manageability (dhalul) of the Earth's resources 67:15-16 as well as the One allowing man's ingenuity to assemble it, allows it to speed and float on the waters He created 4:32,17:66,22:65,36:41,37:96"And Allah has created you and what you make". Similarly to Allah's "making" of the ships because of Him having created in mankind the intellectual capacity to build and engineer, it is Allah who is said to have taught writing to the scribe 2:282, shown Cain how to dig a proper grave for his brother 5:31, taught all of humanity what it knew not 96:4-5 through their senses of perception as they came out not knowing a thing from the womb 16:78. And when humans domesticate animals such as birds of prey the Quran says 5:4"you teach them of what Allah has taught you", meaning it is Allah who ultimately taught the birds. Just as God "makes" for us shelters from the sun by creating in us the knowledge to make such shelters 16:81-3 He could equally make us unable to build any protection from the sun 18:90. He is the One "extending" the shadows according to the laws of nature established by Him and encompassed by His power 25:45"if He had pleased He would certainly have made it stationary" but "We have made the sun an indication of it". When mentionning the willing and unwilling submission to all that is in the heavens and earth, Allah says that even the shadows which are in fact projections from other things and dependent on them for their existence are also subject to Allah's laws and will 13:15,16:48"Do they not consider every thing that Allah has created? Its (very) shadows return from right and left, making obeisance to Allah while they are in utter abasement". It is in fact Allah who is the real light causing their existence in the first place 24:35"Allah is the light of the heavens and the earth". Allah is the one "causing" vegetation to grow, sending rain, wind 25:48 etc. "making" gardens of fruit trees to grow as well as "making" the springs to flow 36:34-35"and their hands did not make it; will they not then be grateful?", "making" the fire to burn 36:80, "witholding" flying creatures in the air 16:79, the One Who "multiplied" mankind on earth 23:79,67:24 etc. Allah is literally the Giver of water for drink, the Giver of shelter in one's own house or in natural places of retreat, the Giver of "garments to preserve you from the heat and coats of mail to preserve you in your fighting" as well as Provider of tents out of the skins of animals 16:80-81, the One who "made" blood and marriage relationships with all the consequent benefits 25:54, and the One who "made" out of the vegetation "means of subsistence for you and for him for whom you are not the suppliers". He "guides" mankind in the darkness 27:63"of the land and the sea" since He has created the cosmic bodies that help humans navigate and locate themselves in the night 6:97. He is the source of all things and Ultimate Provider, 15:21"And there is not a thing but with Us are the treasures of it, and We do not send it down but in a known measure". Last edited by Eagle on Wed Nov 23, 2011 2:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
Hello Eagle,
You are even denying that Mohammed was a "conqueror"? I can see you saying he was not an enslaver or torturer or rapist or murderer, but how can you deny that he was a conqueror? That was his job description. He conquered. You should at least argue that the places he conquered DESERVED conquering, or they ASKED TO be conquered or something. Going to defend Quranic "science", huh?
Not very accurate, not very consistent.The East is always the direction of planetary rotation. And where is the caveat that the sun does NOT rise after the winter solstice above the arctic circle or set below the antarctic? Allah's not much of a celestial mechanic.
That is ridiculous. If the narrator of the Quran knew that the Earth's rotation was causing the apparent setting and rising of the sun, there would be no point in describing a "journey" to reach a vantage point to determine a rising or setting location, right? Further, all the descriptions of the sun's course in the sky suggest a belief that the sun is in fact orbiting the world. Nowhere does Allah state that such motion is merely illusory. No, he describes charging off to chase down the precise locations on the Earth where the rising and setting come from, an undertaking that would be clearly ridiculous to anyone who believed the Earth was spherical and rotating. What is the point of the journeying to the West? Where was Allah's scientific guidance?
Yeah, Muslims sure do cry victory a lot around here. Every time they type something it seems. "Properly explained". More Muslim arrogance. How about "your programmed opinion"? "God sealing the heart of some people" NOT in the Quran? Has your mind been sealed? Allah SAYS he's sealed our hearts and increased our disease! And for all your talk about addressing each point, you STILL have yet to explain why Allah would need to INCREASE our disease if we had already permanently done it to OURSELVES. (I only keep asking because you keep claiming you've answered it). Come on, each-point-addresser, just answer that question without a page of cut-and-paste semantical tap-dancing.
He says your eternal reward is more important yes, but I don't see any prohibitions here, just lessons in what is more important. Allah doesn't forbid enslaving captives, he just instructs the Muslims to FIRST fight and triumph in the land. In other words, no slaves and booty until you first conquer some real estate for Allah. Wonderful. That's some stern "condemnation". Oh really? Mohammed's wars were always self-defense in nature? And what war "was imposed" on Mohammed that he was FORCED to start attacking merchant caravans which precipitated Badr? Tell me with a straight face Mohammed was FORCED to act in self-defense, that it was a matter of life and death. If he had left those caravans (filled with merchants and guards who had done nothing to the Muslims) alone, there would have been NO escalating conflict with Mecca. Oh sure, you'll say it was to recoup lost scabbards or lamps or breakfast cereal someone left behind when they left in a hurry, but that is an incredibly weak and UNPROVABLE excuse to precipitate a war. Plus, if it was to recoup lost possessions, how was Mohammed to know that all of the merchants and guards on that caravan were the very people who stole from him? How was he to avoid stealing from and murdering innocent people? Did he not care? And what motive OTHER than greed for wealth and captives was Mohmamed's motivation? (Or for Kinana's torture and death, for that matter). Do unto others as you'd have them do to you? Love thy neighbor? Blessed are the peacemakers? I suppose Isa's lessons were not too foremost in Mohammed's mind when it came to those caravans, eh?
SARIYYAH OF `UMAYR IBN `ADI Then (occurred) the sariyyah of `Umayr ibn `Adi Ibn Kharashah al-Khatmi against `Asma' Bint Marwan, of Banu Umayyah Ibn Zayd, when five nights had remained from the month of Ramadan, in the beginning of the nineteenth month from the hijrah of the apostle of Allah. `Asma' was the wife of Yazid Ibn Zayd Ibn Hisn al-Khatmi. She used to revile Islam, offend the prophet and instigate the (people) against him. She composed verses. Umayr Ibn Adi came to her in the night and entered her house. Her children were sleeping around her. There was one whom she was suckling. He searched her with his hand because he was blind, and separated the child from her. He thrust his sword in her chest till it pierced up to her back. Then he offered the morning prayers with the prophet at al-Medina. The apostle of Allah said to him: "Have you slain the daughter of Marwan?" He said: "Yes. Is there something more for me to do?" He [Muhammad] said: "No. Two goats will butt together about her. This was the word that was first heard from the apostle of Allah. The apostle of Allah called him `Umayr, "basir" (the seeing). Abu Afak, a man of great age (reputedly 120 years) was killed because he lampooned Mohammad. The deed was done by Salem b. 'Omayr at the behest of the Prophet, who had asked, "Who will deal with this rascal for me?" The killing of such an old man moved a poetess, Asma b. Marwan, to compose disrespectful verses about the Prophet, and she too was assassinated. Red is such an appropriate highlight color, isn't it? -
Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
First lookup the definition of a conquerer then go there where it was already addressed viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10956&start=60#p167760
So your argument essentially consists in saying that the Quran is wrong because of what it does NOT say
You missed this in your hurry
No here are all the verses you vaguely refer to along with a proper education on each of them, as your predecessors were educated some time ago on this very forum Cosmic bodies float in their space or path/falak, each following its own particular course 21:33. Kullun/all and yasbahun/swim in the plural (for more than two) indicate that not only the sun and the moon but all the heavenly bodies are floating in their own separate orbits and none of them is stationary. In the verses speaking of the movements related to the sun and moon as we perceive them in the sky 14:33,36:38 the Quran's silence on what orbits what, does not contradict the fact that in the sun's case, its perceived course is due to the Earth's rotation around itself and that in the moon's case, its perceived course is due to the moon's orbit around the Earth. When the Quran refers to the cosmic bodies moving on to their appointed term/ajalin musamma 13:2,31:29,35:13,39:5 it is referring -as is clear from the contexts- to the end of the world as we know it, the Day of Resurrection that will cause cataclysmic changes in the entire universe and the re-creation of the heavens and earth altogether "and He made the sun and the moon subservient (to you); each one pursues its course to an appointed time; He regulates the affair, making clear the signs that you may be certain of meeting your Lord". Ajalin musamma refers to the appointed end of a thing 6:2,40:67. In 91:2 the moon is said to follow the sun, ie comes after it and this is referring to the fact that when the night comes, the moon is the main celestial body observable in the sky while during the day it was the sun. And even if taken the other way, technically, the Sun is in orbit around the galaxy and all cosmic bodies (including the moon) revolving around it "follow" it in its orbit accross the galaxy.
Who ever said it was meant to offer such type of guidance
Nobody said He did. The "enslavement" of such war captives has nothing to do with what has been ingrained in your psyche due to the OT and NT where beating them was allowed Ex21:20-21 or passing them down against their will Lev25:44-46 or where they are told to lookup to their masters as equals of God Col3:22-24 or submit even to harsh masters 1Pet2:18. Their "enslavement" meant they had to be treated with the utmost kindness as demonstrated in countless verses. For example in 4:36 the Quran speaks of how they must be treated with kindness, without pride as one would treat the parents, neighbors or the weak in society. This means their guardians cannot abuse them in anyway just as one would not abuse the other groups mentionned in the verse. By further limiting the aquisition of slaves to defensive war campaings 8:67 (thus forbidding making free people slaves) and ultimately forcing their freedom after the war 47:4, the Quran ended the economic motivation to trade in them, striking at the means of such situation to arise in the first place. Male and female war prisonners who became mulk yamin now fell under masters who treated them kindly to such an extent they had to be guaranteed a share of the inheritance if present 4:33.
As well as condemns any motivation other than defending the opressed when going to war as already shown there viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10956&start=60#p167760
Of course
The Quran relates the battle of Badr, see this viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10956&p=168080#p168080 for a proper education
viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10956&start=60#p167760
Not that i have any problem with the leader of a comunity such as the prophet Muhammad ordering the execution of those unjustly plotting to get others to murder his own people inttimes of war such as was the case with the nascent Muslim comunity that faced death from all sides, check the reliability of your sources before posting them. None of what you posted has even been reported in any hadith book whose high level of scrutiny does not even guarantee the authenticity, and you bring me quotes from seera books that are known for reporting any garbage which is why Muslims of all ages knew such sources are not trustworthy references due to the fact that there is no regard for proper methodology of transmission in them. Your quote is a perfect exmple as it does not even have an isnad chain. So go back to your lab and come again with something more credible because bringing such weak sources that claim the prophet ordered the killing of some woman or an old man who allegedly spoke up against him when it is reported he replied with the negative upon some Muslims' request to go after the Jewess who is alledged to have poisonned him, directly attempting to kill him, doesnt really hold waters. Besides the Quran itself forbids any retaliation above and beyond what a person has himself received 2:190-5,16:126-8,42:39-43,17:33 etc while always opening the door to magnanimity. You can go back there if your memory is getting flimsy viewtopic.php?f=20&t=10522&p=168058#p167933 Last edited by Eagle on Thu Nov 24, 2011 6:51 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Re: are there good things about Muhammad?
Eagle:
You said: First lookup the definition of a conquerer then go there where it was already addressed viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10956&start=60#p167760 Would appreciate an answer to this question. What are the objectives of Islam,how did Mohammed achieve them,and how are his followers to do the same?
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