Reflection

Eagle
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Re: Reflection

Post by Eagle »

Melograne wrote:I have got your point Eagle.
No you havent, read the verse again, its not about women not menstrating "yet"
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Eagle
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Re: Reflection

Post by Eagle »

frankie wrote:Eagle:
you dismiss authentic Muslim sources
You havent read/understood anything then, because it is preciesly what was used in the answer to the claim
frankie wrote:Child marriage is prevailent throughout the Muslim world
No
frankie wrote:This leads on to the claim that Mary married Joseph at age 12.According to Jewish culteral practice in this period of history,it is likely Mary would marry at an early age,whether it was age 12 is not actually recorded,
It is, the source was given, no matter your embarrassment
frankie wrote:Mohammed is classified as mankinds role model for eternity,as per Quran
The Quran "classified" as role models not just the prophet Muhammad, but Ibrahim and all righteous believers 60:4-6. We are to take example of all these people in their uprightness of conduct and practice of the faith
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Eagle
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Re: Reflection

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:The age of Aisha is not disputed by Muslim except when talking to nasty kafirs like me in Western countries. Then many Muslims get embarrassed and make up all sorts of excuses.
Muslims passed over this information on Aisha's age without paying much attention to it for long because they know, as any intelligent person, that the documentation of age is not that strong in Arab culture meaning one cannot consider the number itself very accurate. If one is not born in a landmark year then they can loose track.
It is only when someone makes the ridiculous claim that the age of 9 is a 100% certainty, and uses it to fuel hatred, lies and ignorance (forgetting what his own tradition asserts concerning the marriage of the mother of "god") that Muslims must show the falsity of the claim, as was done above using both the Quran that states in sura nisaa that marriage can only occur when one reaches maturity/rushd and puberty/balagh, as well as extra-Quranic sources.
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manfred
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Re: Reflection

Post by manfred »

1) We have no biblical reference to Mary's age, as you keep referring to, and no accurate, reliable other source, either. So, in short, we have no idea how old she was, except to say that she was not an old woman.

2) Mary has nothing whatever to do Mohammed and Aisha. Her age of conception, unknown as it is, does not ratify Mohammed's child abuse.

3) By contrast, we have considerable evidence on the age of Aisha at her "marriage" to Mohammed. We have her own words recorded in the hadith, as well a various other corroborating texts. While I agree that we cannot be absolutely certain about the number 9, let's call it between 8 and 12 , if it makes you happier. The substance has not changed. Mohammed abused a little girl. She was playing with dolls. He was in his late fifties, old enough to be her grandfather.

It is only when someone makes the ridiculous claim that the age of 9....
Thank you for confirming what I said to begin with. Aisha's age was not an issue with Muslims. It is not, to this day. That is why we have similar disgusting "marriages" to this day.

Only when others point out the utter hideous grotesqueness, Muslims, like you, jump to the defence of Mohammed, and create smoke screens upon smokescreens to hide the shame of their idol.

So, your point seems to be "God abused Mary. Maybe Joseph did it? Or the neighbour?" "Mohammed abused Aisha, likewise". Conclusion "Child abuse is ok."

Do you have no shame? Do you have a daughter? Would you allow anyone to touch her sexually if she was between 8 and 12 years old?
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
frankie
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Re: Reflection

Post by frankie »

Eagle wrote:
frankie wrote:Eagle:
you dismiss authentic Muslim sources
You havent read/understood anything then, because it is preciesly what was used in the answer to the claim
frankie wrote:Child marriage is prevailent throughout the Muslim world
No
frankie wrote:This leads on to the claim that Mary married Joseph at age 12.According to Jewish culteral practice in this period of history,it is likely Mary would marry at an early age,whether it was age 12 is not actually recorded,
It is, the source was given, no matter your embarrassment
frankie wrote:Mohammed is classified as mankinds role model for eternity,as per Quran
The Quran "classified" as role models not just the prophet Muhammad, but Ibrahim and all righteous believers 60:4-6. We are to take example of all these people in their uprightness of conduct and practice of the faith

Eagle:
The truth is your own sources,whether you want to believe them or not,is your own concern, but your own moral compass must tell you,child marriage is detrimental to both children and society.If Mohammed was a true prophet,Allah would have mentioned this most important point to him,for Mohammed to heed and action.Either Allah forgot to tell Mohammed,or Mohammed did not listen.You decide which.
Eagle
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Re: Reflection

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:1) We have no biblical reference to Mary's age
Straw man
manfred wrote:and no accurate, reliable other source, either
You have extra biblical traditions as "accurate" and "reliable" than the ones about Aisha's age
manfred wrote:So, in short, we have no idea who old she was, except to say that she was not an old woman.
Taking your traditions speaking of the age of 12 at face value like you do for those of Aisha, we certainly do have a good idea about how old she was
manfred wrote:2) Mary has nothing whatever to do Mohammed and Aisha
Sure
manfred wrote:Her age of conception, unknown as it is, does not ratify Mohammed's child abuse.
You, mean, the lie your kind concoted based on an inacurate information and that was dismantled there viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14477&start=20#p192650" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and there viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14477&start=20#p192951" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;?
manfred wrote:We have her own words recorded in the hadith
And how do you establish that these are her "own words", considering the holes that such statement creates within Bukhari's book itself, let alone other sources
manfred wrote:While I agree that we cannot be absolutely certain about the number 9, let's call it between 8 and 12
It shouldnt cause you a problem then , considering the mother of god's marriage at 12 with a man of 90, which is the double age difference than that of Muhammad when he allegedly married Aisha.

But considering what was already shown, her age could in no way have been less than 13 at the time of hijra and 16 3 years later as she moved with the prophet (that is if we consider she was born in the last year of jaahiliya in order not to sadden you too much, although Tabari's statement does not negate that she could have been years before the end of jaahiliya, which is probably more likely considering the reports, including in Bukhari itself, on her maturity in her matrimonial period
manfred wrote:The substance has not changed. Mohammed abused a little girl. She was playing with dolls. He was in his late fifties, old enough to be her grandfather.
Great, now with that in mind, go back there viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14477&start=20#p192951" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and defend your accusations
manfred wrote:Thank you for confirming what I said to begin with. Aisha's age was not an issue with Muslims
And it still isnt, since we all know how inaccurate such records on age really are, not because we agree with the age among ourselves but are somewhat embarrased about it when others bring it up. Pay closer attention to what was said, this age only becomes an issue when someone tries arguing that it is a 100% certainty, against the overwhelming evidence to the contrary
manfred wrote:That is why we have similar disgusting "marriages" to this day.
No, and you're not paying attention still. The legal age of marriage according to Islamic law isnt based on Aisha's alleged age in Bukhari, but on the Quran's statement concerning physical and mental maturity, as per sura nisaa. Even if we go back to the earliest days of Islam:
Eagle wrote:Public criticism, according to the tradition, was laid at Umar for his trying to marry Fatima, because she was young and Umar was old, almost the same age difference between the Prophet and Aisha. In fact, the traditions record that this was one of the objections of Ali for the union and public criticism had gotten to the point Umar had to defend himself for the move in public. Umar made the point that he only wanted to marry her to affirm his ties with the House of the Prophet. Umar didnt use the precedent of the Prophet marrying Aisha at an alleged young age. Also, if it was a norm of Arab culture, then why would he draw the criticism of the city of Medina for such an act? Further, in the Muwatta which is the representative work on the school of Medina, in the chapter on marrying younger women without asking them, this narration isnt even reported. And you would think, in Medina of all places, the marriage of the Prophet to a young Aisha would serve an evidence for the people of Medina. Where are the examples to substantiate the point of view that such practice was a norm in Arab culture? An interesting point to re-stress is that not only are there no examples to show how such practice was a norm, but also it is reported by GFHaddad that Urwa, the ultimate source of these traditions regarding Aisha's age, just so happenned to have married a 9year old. Besides his poor memory at the time he reported Aisha's age, there is now another reason to seriously doubt his credibility, namely the blatant need to falsify a hadith to serve his interest in justifying an act that far from being the "norm" of the prophet's time, was unacceptable to many including the prophet's own entourage.
manfred wrote:Only when others point out the utter hideous grotesqueness, Muslims, like you, jump to the defence of Mohammed
We're actually jumping to the utter laughable claim that this age is a 100% certainty
manfred wrote:your point seems to be "God abused Mary. Maybe Joseph did it? Or the neighbour?" "Mohammed abused Aisha, likewise". Conclusion "Child abuse is ok."
That wasnt the basis of the argument against the idiotic claim regarding Aisha's age made by your kind. That was simply a mockery of your people, and an exposition of their double standard
manfred wrote:Do you have no shame? Do you have a daughter? Would you allow anyone to touch her sexually if she was between 8 and 12 years old?
Yes and no to the first 2 questions, and certainly not to the last one. How do you feel about the mother of god's abuse at 12 by a 90 year old?
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manfred
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Re: Reflection

Post by manfred »

...your kind...
What kind am I?

Then you carry on throwing about that nonsense about the age of Mary even after admitting that it is completely irrelevant. For the third time: we do not know the age of Mary when she gave birth to Jesus. Medieval stories and apocryphal writings do not provide satisfactory evidence. Also, you miss a vital point: Mohammed is supposed to be an example, the fundamental example in Islam. So this man has sex with a little girl, something you would not allow to happen to your own daughter. And yet he is the "blessing for mankind"... On the other hand,Joseph is a peripheral figure and is not seen as setting a standard for all to follow, not by anyone. Christian would point to Christ, not to Joseph, if an example is needed.

A Tu Quoque is not a reasoned argument, much less so when the the allegation about Mary is simply not proven. The evidence for the age of Mary when giving birth to Jesus is non existent.


On the other hand we have Aisha's age at first intercourse reported amply in

SAHIH AL-BUKHARI, SAHIH MUSLIM, SUNAN ABU DAWUD, SUNAN NASA‘I, SUNAN IBN-I-MAJAH, IBN HISHAM, AL-TABARI, IBN KATHIR, IBN QAYYIM

ALL these (and other) sources report much the same same story. They do not all have the same chain of transmissions, or the same sources, and yet they come up with the same story. Does that not tell you they should be taken seriously?

Does your religion not require you to accept Sahih Hadith?

Would you walk into your mosque and dispute sahih hadith? Or do you only do that on this forum?


Your point that there are in some way equivalent bodies of evidence is simply false.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
Eagle
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Re: Reflection

Post by Eagle »

manfred wrote:Then you carry on throwing about that nonsense about the age of Mary even after admitting that it is completely irrelevant.
It isnt, as it exposes your double standard, taking at face value an information as reliable as the one about god's mother. That argument, if its true purpose flew over your angry head, is not presented in an effort to justify Aisha's alleged young age of marriage since this is precisely what was refuted
manfred wrote:For the third time: we do not know the age of Mary when she gave birth to Jesus.
Sure, however her and Joseph's age at the time of marriage is known
manfred wrote:Medieval stories and apocryphal writings do not provide satisfactory evidence.
You mean, such as the book of revelation that was considered apocrypha until later on? And again:
Eagle wrote:1. Church leaders that argued what was inerrant and what was not, never challenged the age, and the evidence points to them accepting it, as the Catholic Enyclopedia states and if i recall correctly, Eastern churches openly declare this information to be true.
2. Not a single 'apocrypha' scripture was rejected based upon the age of Joseph marrying Mary.
3. Just because an apocrypha was rejected, does not mean it was rejected for all of it's contents. For example, the same Apocrypha can say that Jesus was born in a stable and 3 wise-men came and visited her. Is this story 'false' because it's in Apocrypha?
manfred wrote:Also, you miss a vital point: Mohammed is supposed to be an example, the fundamental example in Islam
Not in the least more fundamental that the other uswa hasana spoken of in the Quran and already referenced, scroll back up
manfred wrote:So this man has sex with a little girl
Good, now take that claim up and defend it in light of the arguments presented it there viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14477&start=20#p192650" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and there viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14477&start=20#p192951" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Your kind, it is simply the restless enemy of Islam who will remain bitter till his end
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manfred
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Re: Reflection

Post by manfred »

And you keep drumming on, even though the Aisha issue has long been settled.
So, you did not say... Would you go to your mosque and tell them you dispute sahih hadith?
No?

Then the question is answered amply by the overwhelming evidence.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
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kaimana1
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Re: Reflection

Post by kaimana1 »

Garudaman wrote:why not? muslim used to do it with each other! :roll:
Well, they never disputed the hadiths about aishas marriage age to muhammad.
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kaimana1
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Re: Reflection

Post by kaimana1 »

Garudaman wrote:will never if they read 6 & 9 as "16 & 19" years old or sort of! :roll:
No scholar of hadith has ever made that argument. :lotpot:
Melograne
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Re: Reflection

Post by Melograne »

Eagle wrote: It is only when someone makes the ridiculous claim that the age of 9 is a 100% certainty, and uses it to fuel hatred, lies and ignorance... using both the Quran that states in sura nisaa that marriage can only occur when one reaches maturity/rushd and puberty/balagh, as well as extra-Quranic sources.
Well Bukhari said at Volume 8, Book 73, Number 151 and Volume 7, Book 62, Number 163 that Aïsha was a little girl not yet reached the age of puberty !!!

Perhaps Bukhari mentioned that not necessarily to go against the prophet? maybe because at the time penetrating a prepubescent girl was considered like a sort of trophy, so he felt some kind of admiration for muhammad in having done that??? Perhaps??? Who knows??? However fact is that muhammad has penetrated Aisha when she was a prepubescent child !!!

In principle a prophet of God shall give an example to the people! Not only for the people of his time but also for the people of the future generations! What kind of example is this? Do God was short of prophets in order to tell his message to humanity ??? Do God was forced to choose a pedophile for that ???
Muhammad cannot be the prophet of God, just because it doesn't make any sense at all !!!
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