FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

afttak
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 9:58 am

Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by afttak »

Dear try the following keywords in Google search & you’ll have lot more on the topic


- Islamic mysticism
- Iqbal Poetry
- Indian Sufi Saints

Remember in Buddhism, when you reach in the height of spiritualism, you’ve to sexually ‘sterile’ yourself , through a surgery removal as Dalai lama did, so as to stop the ‘wishes’ and I don’t think you want to through this process. :)

tobias malachi
Posts: 517
Joined: Fri Apr 17, 2009 12:11 pm

Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by tobias malachi »

Thank you Afttak for the information

crazymonkie_
Posts: 1899
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 7:01 am

Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by crazymonkie_ »

afttak wrote:
The gold standard is a relic of mercantilism, and encourages nothing more than mercenary hoarding by governments. Though what we use as the standard needs serious changing, as does how much leeway those awful credit card companies get
I think US nation must get rid of the slavery from Zionists.
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Um.....yeeeeeeaaaah, I think this part of the conversation's over now.

The Zionist conspiracy idea is baloney.

It's always been baloney; in the 30s it was baloney. In the 18TH CENTURY it was baloney.

Not coincidentally, in the West at least, the idea came about after the massive migration of Askhenazi Jews from eastern Europe, due to the pogroms. Why? Well- one of the reasons was the cockamamie theory about loaning at interest being eeeeeeeevil; despite the fact that the Jews were forced into it centuries ago, and the Christians around them generally benefited from it, they were still purged from Russia, Poland, Slovakia, etc, etc, in the 18th century.

Jews haven't controlled sh!t since the destruction of the 2nd Temple by Titus and their expulsion from Judea under a later Roman Emperor. Seriously, dude, learn your history, don't just repeat idiotic slander you've heard.
In terms of sheer numbers, sure, more people are suffering. But human beings are living longer, with greater quality of life than ever before (EX: When was the last time you heard of a smallpox epidemic in the West? Wide-scale famine?
Yup, shame to such ‘scientific awareness age’ where except westerners & ‘civilized world’ the whole world is suffering.
That's actually politics at work. Really nasty politics- like the Bush administration not giving HIV medication (or even condoms) to women involved in prostitution. Hooray for ass-backwards fundie mentality.
Infact there are new arrivals of ‘planted epidemics’ like Aids, TBs, cardiac arrests.
AIDS is an equal opportunity killer- it kills more in Africa than anywhere else because there's a LOT of ignorance about protection and what actually causes HIV; that's as much the fault of the crappy governments of those nations as it is of the West withholding cheap birth control/STD control methods from the people in the countries.

TB is still very common even in the West. It hasn't really become more virulent or anything either- it goes through ebbs and flows, and regardless, generally doesn't do much more than cause an occasional cough. You or I could be carriers and not know it; I dated a paramedic-in-training who told me all about it, because they have to get checked periodically, and can test positive (even HAVE TB) and it doesn't even slow them down.

Cardiac arrest is due much more to bad diet. The West is suffering more from it than anywhere else, due to a much more sedentary lifestyle than in previous generations.

On that same note: You forgot to mention diabetes. That's REALLY on the rise, especially in the West. They had to stop calling Type 2 Diabetes "Adult Onset Diabetes" because a lot of our fat f**k kids were getting it. Poor diet, almost no exercise... I'm hoping someone's going to wake up on this. We don't need a generation of lazy and out-of-shape people running this country in 20-some years.
The worst kind of famine at major African countries like Somalia, Chad, Nigeria, owing to the ruthless policies of new world order & IMF is yet another story (I hope you did watch the horrible picture of the century, where a vulture is waiting for a starved child to die).
Yup. But that's a complicated thing; partly it's because Africa itself is basically the middle of a tectonic plate, which means the soil doesn't get churned up like it does in a lot of other parts of the world. Second, there's been sedentary and semi-sedentary agriculture in Africa for thousands of years. The soil's almost done for. Third, there's a continual growth of population (as everywhere else in the world) without a rise in agricultural technology, due to either the West withholding the tech (rare) or the African governments not using them (more common.) Fourth: world's getting hotter. Africa's pretty near the equator. This means it's a sort of precursor to what will happen to the rest of the world. Fifth: The governments of Africa are mostly ineffectual- partly because of neo-colonialism, and partly due to plain old human greed.
How in the early 20th century, (the age of awareness) the westerner (the fittest human species) had systemically colonized, plundered, wickedly installed puppet rulers, humanity must thankful to them.
Who said anything about thankfulness? Who said they were in the right? Did I? Colonialism was sh!t. BUT- do you have an alternative? Is the idealism of the West (even if the reality falls far, far behind) invalidated by poor implementation?

If you want to invalidate arguments based on the character of those arguing, you'll have a thin list of people you can pay attention to indeed. William Lloyd Garrison, William Blake.... that's about it. That's also the very definition of the ad hominem fallacy- saying someone's argument is invalid because of their character.
Also thanks to the so-called progress that US is one of the major ‘junk producer’ in the world which is a direct threat to Earth’s natural order.
I won't doubt that. I have no idea what to do about it, really. Nobody does.... but I really hope we figure out how to stop making so much byproduct.
And there are a few details missing from this story: Was your friend raised in a theist household of some kind? And did he 're-convert' to the faith of his extended family, or was it to something radically different (like- was he a Christian who went back to Christianity, or was he a Christian who became a Hindu?).
Yes, after that incident, he gradually ‘re-converted’ to his original family faith (as a Muslim), earlier he was a ‘cultural Muslim’ but now he is more than cultural.
Ah. See, that gives a different tenor to the story. Basically it's someone going back to the fundamentals he's grown up around. Some people (not you) would see that as proof of a particular religion. I don't see this as one of those 'see, everyone really believes in god' things, which you seemed to imply in your earlier posts. This sort of re-conversion after massive life changes to the faith one knows well is as common as dirt. But it doesn't happen across faiths- and considering that each has competing claims about god's properties, it's not a good argument for ANY god, no matter how you define it.
Unlike west, in our Muslim society, it is quite impossible for an individual to convert in others faith, obviously because of fear of being rejected by the society or just to be killed!
So I've heard. It sounds awful, and I hope that approach goes away. To me that is one of the most repulsive things a religion can do- kill apostates or harm their families. I don't even like shunning, which is something quite a few strict Protestant sects do.
What I’ve presumed that in the west, people, because of lack of social bonds, individualism / separate family system where old people are sent to the ‘old age houses, one is totally free to ‘pick’ what he/she chose and I see Buddhism as the flourishing ‘faith’ as it is best suited for such ‘lonely people’, so as to quench their spiritualism, while in the religion of Islam, there are everything for everyone, it is a user friendly, whether one want to mediate, socialize or want to ‘conquer’ the world. :turban:
You're mostly right about the individualism thing- and the West REALLY needs to learn how to treat its elders again. Just two generations ago, the multi-generational house where the retired would live with their family was the norm; for some it was a bit stifling, but I think it's something where the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks, and I hope it comes back.

BUT, when it comes to Buddhism- no, you're not right. What's really happening right now is a period of punctuated equilibrium with regards to Christianity. People are becoming less 'religious' (leaving denominations in droves) while becoming more 'spiritual' (leaning towards either their own interpretations of Christianity- sort of rarely; or working from 'popular' interpretations that pick and choose Bible verses for their preferred theology). But it's still mostly Christianity. Buddhism, I think, has mostly peaked. It was getting really popular in the mid-to-late 90s... well, the 'popular' Buddhism that was sort of a weird mix of Tibetan Buddhism (which I have a hard time stomaching) and consumerism. Lately, though, it doesn't seem quite as popular.

What you said of Islam can be said of Christianity- and in fact is more true in the U.S. than anywhere. At the most recent count, there are, I think, close to 30,000 denominations of Christianity in the U.S. alone. It's a true marketplace of ideas for Christians- ironically, some think it's because we never had an official religion that so many groups popped up. Because the groups had to aggressively recruit and retain members, they became much more resilient.
The reason for social collapse among Christian masses in US or in western countries that people are more and more embarrassing other faiths, especially into Islam & Buddhism, perhaps the inability of Christianity which is unable to provide social /family get together or people just want to experience new faiths.
Not at all. Fundamentalist Christianity definitely has this issue, and Evangelicals are following them into slow oblivion. I say good riddance; both are very recent inventions- focusing not on creeds of faith, but on the Bible as an 'infallible' book (one book, not many). This began in the early-to-late 1800s with the Niagara Bible Conferences. I've only been able to find a wikipedia entry; I'm shocked that nobody's talking about it... Anyway, I don't see how the ideas of these groups will be able to survive the next century, personally.

Christianity's going to be fine, though. It's just going to look radically different than it has. And society isn't *collapsing*; if it has, it's been 'collapsing' since the 60s. That's a long-ass time for a collapse. 'Restructuring' might be a far better word for it.
The fear of loneliness & family collapse is beautifully described in the Jim Carry’s movie ‘Cable Guy’ (if you’ve watched this movie), where interestingly every character of the movie is lonely, far away from family relation & bond, they are forced to socialized with other people, find new friends. Now this germ of advancement is slowly penetrating into Muslim society too, yet ‘old age house’ is totally new idea in our society.
Alienation is actually a really old idea to be 'new' in the West. Marx and Engels complained about it when it was new, in the 1830s. Loneliness can be a problem (I know, I lived in a very big, very lonely, very isolating city for most of my life) but it's a problem the West has dealt with, I think, admirably. Except, of course, for how we treat our elders, which I discussed above.
I'm still relatively young (a bit shy of 30), so I won't say 'you're wrong' or 'you're right' on this matter. Though I do think it's odd to be afraid of death in general.


O! in your country, average age growing health issues are far improved than ours. You can easily escape this growing age ‘trauma’ till 50s, apart Christians, Muslim much tends to be religious in the growing age. Every old man will be looking with a white beard, which is considered a mark of honor & such people are respected very much and believe me such are not threw into ‘old age house’ :sly:
Here's one funny thing about aging in the West. We have a saying nowadays: "40 is the new 30." Due to longer lifespans, and partially because some of our parents (thankfully not mine) discarded the more shared culture of what was essentially Anglo-America in the 60s and 70s, replacing it, basically, with nothing, we've now got a generation of emotionally stunted grownups.

Upside: People are realizing they can still change and grow for much longer. Downside: Some refuse to grow up! My brother works in a hardware store, and he talks to people almost ten years older than him who are debating whether or not to go back to college and get their degrees.

From another post:
Remember in Buddhism, when you reach in the height of spiritualism, you’ve to sexually ‘sterile’ yourself , through a surgery removal as Dalai lama did, so as to stop the ‘wishes’ and I don’t think you want to through this process.
Not really. It depends on what sect you're talking about. Most, though, agree it's not about negation (whoah, that was pretty frickin' ironic, there.) It's not about a *desire* for negation; it's not about a *desire* that will carry you into sensations, bodily pleasures and so on. It's about the Middle Path- between excessive denial and hedonism. That the Dalai Lama did that only shows that Tibetan Buddhism sucks- which I've felt for years.

The basic teachings of the Gautama Buddha are NOT about 'no no no.' They're also not about 'yes yes yes.' It's about going BEYOND both, past the denial and punishment of one's body that, even according to the Buddha, would result in spiritual gifts (mystical powers) but that which keeps one tied to the Karmic Wheel, and past the denial of pleasure for pleasure's sake.

Where Theravada and Mahayana Buddhism split are on several points: First- whether the goal of the practices are to have only one rebirth, or none (Mahayana) or to whittle down one's potential many rebirths to just a few human rebirths (Theravada), as humans are uniquely suited to enlightenment; not suffering as with hungry ghosts or demons, not living by necessity only for the moment as animals, and not able to have any gratification with a thought as the deva and the gods. Second- whether the laity should be a part of Buddhism beyond giving gifts of food to the monks. Theravada says no, Mahayana says yes. Third- the commonality of the bodhisattva ideal versus the arahant ideal. In Theravada Buddhism, there is an idea of an enlightened one (arahant) returning to earth to teach again- but this is very rare. Mahayana has hundreds, if not thousands, of bodhisattvas returning to teach. Tibetan Buddhism takes a road between the two- being its own weird thing- with the Lama idea.

But absolute denial? That's not Buddhism. At least not Buddhism that isn't off base.
I’d appreciate your thoughts, the purpose of such debates should be ‘learning & understanding’ not to become a winner or looser. :)
You got 'em! See you around.

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expozIslam
Posts: 3114
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2009 10:32 pm

Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by expozIslam »

tobias malachi wrote:I have no information on Sufi Muslims could oblige please
Here is the other side of sufi islam
http://islam-watch.org/Ibrahim.Lone/Suf ... Saints.htm
“The truth, of course, is that a billion falsehoods told a billion times by a billion people are still false.”

yeezevee
Posts: 6547
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by yeezevee »

afttak says : Dear try the following keywords in Google search & you’ll have lot more on the topic


- Islamic mysticism
- Iqbal Poetry
- Indian Sufi Saints
and expozIslam give a link of expozIslam
Professor Aziz Ahmad, a renowned scholar of Islam in India, clinched this matter in the following words:
"In Indian sufism anti-Hindu polemics started with Muinal-din Chisti. Early sufis in Punjab and early Chistis devoted themselves to the task of conversion on a large scale. Missionary activity slowed down under Nizam al-din Auliya, not because of any new concept of eclecticism, but because he held that the Hindus were generally excluded from grace and could not be easily converted to Islam unless they had the opportunity to be in the company of the Muslim saints for considerable time."
In other words the native Hindus were as a nation, not fitting to become Muslims. This is the sort of hatred that the Sufis had for the Hindus.
That is a stunning statement from Professor Aziz Ahmad. Any way My good wishes to both of you guys dear expozIslam and afttak., Well friends.. Googling and just linking is NOT as useful as bit of writeup along with links., I wish afttak could write about Subcontinent and Sufi Saints from there along with their - Islamic mysticism., We must realize here Sufis of Islam are as varied as Islam itself and must keep it mind Islam is here NOT because of - Islamic mysticism- Iqbal Poetry - Indian Sufi Saints But because of Q'uran, Hadith, Sunnah and Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)..

and I wish I could read more from you guys on this subject so on that let me give you guys. A link of Sufis at Wiki did a good job of giving names of Sufis according to their nationalities.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:S ... ationality." onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;, Also it is worth reading work of Professor Aziz Ahmad
Aziz, Ahmad: An Intellectual History of Islam in India. Edinburgh: Edinburgh University Press, 1969.

---. Islamic Modernism in India and Pakistan, 1857-1964. London: Oxford University Press, 1967.

---. Studies in Islamic Culture in the Indian Environment. Oxford: Clarendon, 1964.

Aziz, Ahmad, and G.E. von Grunebaum, eds. Muslim Self-Statement in India and Pakistan 1857-1968. Weisbaden: O. Harrassowitz, 1970.
with best regards
yeezevee

yeezevee
Posts: 6547
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by yeezevee »

Interesting Videos for afttak.. on living Sufi Muhammad Hisham Kabbani

Image
http://www.islamicsupremecouncil.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
FACE to FACE - Shaykh Hisham Kabbani
Muhammad Hisham Kabbani (born in Lebanon, 13 Safar 1364 / 28 January 1945) is a prominent American Sufi Muslim. Kabbani advocates an understanding of Islam described by his supporters as fundamentally based on peace, tolerance, respect and love. Shaykh Muhammad Hisham Kabbani descends from a long line of scholars and was born in Beirut, Lebanon. For more than fifty years he has been a disciple of Nazim al-Qubrusi and his representative in United States. His Muslim critics, however, contend that Kabbani's statements have at times placed the American Muslim Establishment in a negative light. Shaykh Kabbani, has been an outspoken critique of extremism as well as the Wahabi doctrine. Shaykh Kabbani is a spiritual teacher in the line of Naqshbandi-Haqqani Sufi Order. He is chairman of the Islamic Supreme Council of America and the Sufi Muslim Council.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQNE-GcHhHU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; -part-1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84TSSY8sjzk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; -Part-2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFjYlV8YRNY" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; -Part-3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERo5Rb_qGBo" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; -Part-4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkY4644Tv9Y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; -Part-5

yeezevee

afttak
Posts: 47
Joined: Tue May 19, 2009 9:58 am

Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by afttak »

Not really. It depends on what sect you're talking about. Most, though, agree it's not about negation (whoah, that was pretty frickin' ironic, there.) It's not about a *desire* for negation; it's not about a *desire* that will carry you into sensations, bodily pleasures and so on.
See that the Buddhism also has ‘sects’ & negativities in its system (of belief), like other faiths are prone to… i.e. playing / manipulating with user friendly options of the brain….that means the people who were involved for gassing innocent people in Japan, at ground train / tunnel were also some kind of cults of Buddha??

I don’t understand why people specially target Islam for call it pathetic & call Muslim as being barbaric / warrior, while no religion in Earth is free from human interpretation / distortions. There are indeed good teachings in every religion, where one can pick to reform his / her life. Further I believe that as soon as any religion or belief is out of the skirt of personalization, there the differences in understanding arrive, the worst case is the politicization of any faith or belief, where minority’s view points are imposed to the majority.

The basic teachings of the Gautama Buddha are NOT about 'no no no.' They're also not about 'yes yes yes.' It's about going BEYOND both, past the denial and punishment of one's body that, even according to the Buddha, would result in spiritual gifts (mystical powers) but that which keeps one tied to the Karmic Wheel, and past the denial of pleasure for pleasure's sake.


Buddhism, is believed to be ‘personal religion’ has weird confused / philosophy that common individuals cannot grasp, further I find this ‘belief system’ is unable to provide any full-fledged social system that other faiths have offered. Anyhow, Buddhism is now becoming popularized among western intellectuals, show biz persons but again it is a reality that as long as a person is not suffered from ‘isolation’ & individualism, practicing Buddhism is a good idea, but it is not the final answer & solution in the best interest of our society.


For posts of brother yeezevee and expozIslam:

We must realize here Sufis of Islam are as varied as Islam itself and must keep it mind Islam is here NOT because of - Islamic mysticism- Iqbal Poetry - Indian Sufi Saints But because of Q'uran, Hadith, Sunnah and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)..
It is true that we cannot make happy all people of the world, otherwise the world could be full of happiness. At one point (in this thread) brother yeezeeve is criticizing spread of Islam by sword and now he is also not satisfied with the Sufi version of Islam, which is more tolerant & love based. Please tell me which version of Islam is acceptable for you brother yeezeeve??

Let me explain that Muslim ruled in the Indian continent for upto 900 years and there were rare conflicts chaos. Muslim & Hindus during that period lived like good fellows with harmony & peace, except some of incidents which are normal. It was only penetration of English colonial powers that seeds the hate & spread who is who differences for their own means.

Faith of Islam did not always show itself in his military campaigns, it certainly did in the cultural landscape which is evident every nook & corner of the world, Spain, Turkey & especially in Indian subcontinent, he Muslim sculpture, monuments are still vital signs of our glory days. Foreign tourists pay tribute to Taj Mahal, not nasty & stinking Hindus temples, Hindus must thankful to Muslim that tourism is a flourishing trade in India.

Sufism is not outside Islam but has its roots in it. It is a mystic tradition that consists of a varied range of ideas and practices that emphasize on the attainment of divine love and compassion of the heart. However, various Islamic scholars hold the view that Sufism is the evolution of Islam in a more spiritual and mystic direction. All schools of Sufism consider the Prophet Muhammad as the manifestation of God. This is one reason why Sufi is considered to have branched from Islam. Sufism in its earlier stages was recited and meditated from the Quran.

India is the land of spiritualism. Some of the major religions of the world have been started over here. Sufism has also been present in India since a long time and even today we find a number of Sufi followers here. Some of the popular Sufi saints of Indo Pak region have been:

Hazrat Data Ganj Bukh
Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti
Hazrat Nizam-Ud-Din
Bulleh Shah
Shah Abdul Lateef Bhitaee
Baba Fareed Ganj Shakr
Hazrat Khwaja Qutubuddin Bakhtiyar Kaki

http://www.cscsarchive.org:8081/MediaAr ... rtKey=Some" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Because of their irrelevancy to materialism, beautiful preaching & tolerance for other people of faith, thousands of people, especially Hindus were converted into Islam. This is totally wrong impression that Islam was installed through sword or force all over the world, exception of some wicked rulers whose purpose was not Islam but plundering & looting. Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy is a fluent historian & speaker on the topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pervez_Hoodbhoy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Apart from Indian sub-continent, there are other sort of Sufis in Turkey (Mullas) where the holy ritual of whirling dance, is practiced. It is basically an act of devotion that takes a person to a higher level of consciousness.

In the same way, Ameer Khusro is also a known Muslim saint, who had invented Qwalli (a form of holy music) to preach Islam.

Certainly Muslim fundamentalist & puritans are denial of any cultural diversity i.e. why you still see, less cultural / art development in the places where Islam has originated i.e.at Arabian Peninsulas, it is only Turkey, Indian sub continent & Spain which reminds us the renaissance of Muslim golden age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufi_Saints_of_South_Asia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The impact of Sufis in Indian sub continent is so powerful that even Hindus & people of other faiths in India & Pakistan do visits the shrine of Sufi Saints, however worshipping graves & idea of majzoob (i.e. concept of naked Sufi) is totally later inventions where masses misused & still misusing the Sufi terminology.

yeezevee
Posts: 6547
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 9:17 pm

Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by yeezevee »

afttak responds to brother yeezevee and expozIslam:
Spoiler! :
yeezevee: We must realize here Sufis of Islam are as varied as Islam itself and must keep it mind Islam is here NOT because of - Islamic mysticism- Iqbal Poetry - Indian Sufi Saints But because of Q'uran, Hadith, Sunnah and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)..
It is true that we cannot make happy all people of the world, otherwise the world could be full of happiness. At one point (in this thread) brother yeezeeve is criticizing spread of Islam by sword and now he is also not satisfied with the Sufi version of Islam, which is more tolerant & love based. Please tell me which version of Islam is acceptable for you brother yeezeeve??

Let me explain that Muslim ruled in the Indian continent for upto 900 years and there were rare conflicts chaos. Muslim & Hindus during that period lived like good fellows with harmony & peace, except some of incidents which are normal. It was only penetration of English colonial powers that seeds the hate & spread who is who differences for their own means.

Faith of Islam did not always show itself in his military campaigns, it certainly did in the cultural landscape which is evident every nook & corner of the world, Spain, Turkey & especially in Indian subcontinent, he Muslim sculpture, monuments are still vital signs of our glory days. Foreign tourists pay tribute to Taj Mahal, not nasty & stinking Hindus temples, Hindus must thankful to Muslim that tourism is a flourishing trade in India.

Sufism is not outside Islam but has its roots in it. It is a mystic tradition that consists of a varied range of ideas and practices that emphasize on the attainment of divine love and compassion of the heart. However, various Islamic scholars hold the view that Sufism is the evolution of Islam in a more spiritual and mystic direction. All schools of Sufism consider the Prophet Muhammad as the manifestation of God. This is one reason why Sufi is considered to have branched from Islam. Sufism in its earlier stages was recited and meditated from the Quran.

India is the land of spiritualism. Some of the major religions of the world have been started over here. Sufism has also been present in India since a long time and even today we find a number of Sufi followers here. Some of the popular Sufi saints of Indo Pak region have been:

Hazrat Data Ganj Bukh
Khwaja Moinuddin Chishti
Hazrat Nizam-Ud-Din
Bulleh Shah
Shah Abdul Lateef Bhitaee
Baba Fareed Ganj Shakr
Hazrat Khwaja Qutubuddin Bakhtiyar Kaki

http://www.cscsarchive.org:8081/MediaAr" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... rtKey=Some


Because of their irrelevancy to materialism, beautiful preaching & tolerance for other people of faith, thousands of people, especially Hindus were converted into Islam. This is totally wrong impression that Islam was installed through sword or force all over the world, exception of some wicked rulers whose purpose was not Islam but plundering & looting. Dr. Pervaiz Hoodbhoy is a fluent historian & speaker on the topic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pervez_Hoodbhoy" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Apart from Indian sub-continent, there are other sort of Sufis in Turkey (Mullas) where the holy ritual of whirling dance, is practiced. It is basically an act of devotion that takes a person to a higher level of consciousness.

In the same way, Ameer Khusro is also a known Muslim saint, who had invented Qwalli (a form of holy music) to preach Islam.

Certainly Muslim fundamentalist & puritans are denial of any cultural diversity i.e. why you still see, less cultural / art development in the places where Islam has originated i.e.at Arabian Peninsulas, it is only Turkey, Indian sub continent & Spain which reminds us the renaissance of Muslim golden age.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufi_Saints_of_South_Asia" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The impact of Sufis in Indian sub continent is so powerful that even Hindus & people of other faiths in India & Pakistan do visits the shrine of Sufi Saints, however worshipping graves & idea of majzoob (i.e. concept of naked Sufi) is totally later inventions where masses misused & still misusing the Sufi terminology.[/quote]
dear afttak Khuda Affiz., I am afraid that you went around the point and all over history of Islam in one post for a simple statement I wrote. let me repeat that here again
We must realize here Sufis of Islam are as varied as Islam itself and
we must keep it mind Islam is here NOT because of - Islamic mysticism- Iqbal Poetry - Indian Sufi Saints But because of Q'uran, Hadith, Sunnah and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)..
That was the point., I ask you why you need to go around that dear afttak?? Any ways, I already wrote that we have very good, good, bad, ugly and very bad sufis in the history of Sufism with Islamic Salt in it., Superficailly they may all look good for their respective followers but dig deep in to individuals there are HOLES.

I understand naked Sufis, ragged Sufis, simple Sufis, Sufis that used Muslim Kings and Sufis that could very well be called CROOKS. They are all inventions of Islam, where the followers may have misused & may still be misusing that Sufi terminology(whatever that may be). But that is not problem of masses to dissect who is good who was bad., it is the problem for educated folks like you to help the masses.

I will answer your question of
At one point (in this thread) brother yeezeeve is criticizing spread of Islam by sword and now he is also not satisfied with the Sufi version of Islam, which is more tolerant & love based. Please tell me which version of Islam is acceptable for you brother yeezeeve??
address the ROOTS of Sufism and discuss whether it starts from Muhammad's Islam or it starts because it Questions Muhammad's Islam using the cultural background that a Sufi was born in to? The other stunning point you wrote is in red color here
Let me explain that Muslim ruled in the Indian continent for upto 900 years and there were rare conflicts chaos. Muslim & Hindus during that period lived like good fellows with harmony & peace, except some of incidents which are normal. It was only penetration of English colonial powers that seeds the hate & spread who is who differences for their own means.

Faith of Islam did not always show itself in his military campaigns, it certainly did in the cultural landscape which is evident every nook & corner of the world, Spain, Turkey & especially in Indian subcontinent, he Muslim sculpture, monuments are still vital signs of our glory days. Foreign tourists pay tribute to Taj Mahal, not nasty & stinking Hindus temples, Hindus must thankful to Muslim that tourism is a flourishing trade in India.
That is very unfortunate word from you dear Afttak., that is NOT sufi like., nasty & stinking Hindus temples are hindu problem., I am sure with enough Financial support from good people like you they will build Good looking Not so nasty temples.

So Again I ask you to address the issue that YOU QUOTED from my words., And if you could watch the videos of Pakistan Prime Time that came recently., A discussion between Rana Mubashar & Zaid Hamid . Your comments on that discussion is useful.

Image Image
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEHTtWqw2gs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UecRSg43Isw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1ZpnA3BMugs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jaXOxcr6ddQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atWZKB95Xjc" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Do you know anything about Zaid Hamid?? Is he all right?? of Pakistan.

with best wishes
yeezevee
Last edited by yeezevee on Thu May 28, 2009 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by ygalg »

afttak wrote: Anyway one must not forget that brother Ali Sina was once a Muslim, but now he is mere a ‘cultural Muslim’, ask why?? Because when brave people like outspoken Richard Dawkins is still call himself a ‘cultural Christian’ then why not Ali Sina??
what's there in Islam that can be contributive culturally?
One cannot deny that Sina has a Muslim blood in his veins,

Islam is not a race.
“a true believer as a person so fanatically committed to a cause that no amount of reality can make him abandon it” Eric Hoffer

afttak
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Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by afttak »

dear afttak Khuda Affiz., I am afraid that you went around the point and all over history of Islam in one post for a simple statement
Dear yeezevee, this is one my styles to let the readers have a complete picture of the story and as an old fellow, you are already know about this. But if even after there are questions in readers mind, I’ll be glad to reply.
But because of Q'uran, Hadith, Sunnah and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)..
I ask you why you need to go around that point dear afttak??
There is always some purpose when we write something, In the above referred statement I just wanted to show the readers that Islam is not spread only through sword, as westerns assume (and you’ve also pointed out in one of your posts).

There is no doubt that Islam has originated through Quran (revelation of God), Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) & Hadith BUT later in different regions (other than Arabian Peninsula when Islam had reached, It was only & only propagation through Sufi Saints / Muslim preachers. For example about around 700 A.D. when Muhammad Bin Qasim was leaving from Sindh / Deebal, Hindus began to made his statutes for worshipping, as if he was some sort of God, so it was only tolerant Muslim ideology & high level of ethics, which outcomes are evident to us in South Asia, as we compare to it with Spain or else where ‘sword notion’ is applicable. Finally you can say that here in Indian sub continent religion of Islam was spread majorly by Sufi Saints.
That is very unfortunate word from you dear Afttak., that is NOT Sufi like., nasty & stinking Hindus temples are hindu problem., I am sure with enough Financial support from good people like you they will build Good looking Not so nasty temples.
The Jalal of a Sufi is famous. :wink: This is not something unfortunate but based on some rational facts & eyewitness events…when I was writing these lines, horrible slides of genocide, racism were running in front of my eyes. You & the rest of readers must acknowledge that today Muslim in India are looked down upon & treated as a ‘second class citizens’. The mass massacre in Gujarat, destroying various Muslim mosques, enmity of Hindu extremist parties & figures like Shiv Sena (SS), Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), Bajrang Dal (BD), Bal Thackeray, Narendra Moodi, Uddhav Thackeraym, Shri Ram Sena (Army of Ram) are quite sufficient, where they also attacked on Christians, Buddha followers. Now compare it with Pakistan, where Hindus are living with much liberty & peace. Earlier, some Pakistanis, captured in India, was also brutally tortured to kill, instead the case that Pakistan had released one of Indian spy.

As far as the mentioning of stinking Hindu Temples, it is no doubt is one of undeniable reality of this world. Just visit any of Hindu temples in India, there you’ll find unbearable smell. The Hindu Sadhu, smells so badly that you cannot stand too long with them. Many of Hindu Pundit do no have bath for various days! Some of the temples cows urine are consumed. While some of the temples are infestated with rodents, monkeys where Panduts share with them food! Visit at the Hindu morgue (Shamshaan Gath) specially at Kaasi (the holiest place of the Hindus). This is one of the vomit citing place in entire world where Hindu burned their dead ones, the half burned bodies float in the river. This place is fiesta for crows & other carnivores birds and believe me the Hindu pilgrims (who visit this place) have to take a DIP in these ‘holy waters’. :ohmy:

http://www.funenclave.com/reality-bites ... 25335.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Note: Not for light hearted people, CARE!!

So I would again repeat that it is only Muslim historical monuments like Taj Mahal or the Hindus prostitution / massage places at green high areas that foreigners infest in India, otherwise one would vomit. :sly:

if you could watch the videos of Pakistan Prime Time that came recently., A discussion between Rana Mubashar & Zaid Hamid ., you comments on that discussion is useful. Do you anything about Zaid Hamid?? Is he all right??
I’ve already mentioned Zaid Hamid’s website (http://www.brasstacks.pk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) and some of his discussed topics like Economic Terrorism, Hindu Zionist relations, 9/11 inside job in this thread. As a fluent defense analyst, he is an outspoken speaker. He also remained in Jihaad for six years during Afghan Soviet War. Now he devoted to the study of regional and global political events and their implications for Pakistan's security and interests. I still didn’t yet watch the said debate, except all videos on aired at News One. Without doubt this guy is awesome. Let me watch the video.

Regards.

afttak
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Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by afttak »

Ygalg wrote:
Islam is not a race.


Dear the sentence could be understood in context of the genetic / cultural inheritances / tendencies. Let me scientifically / psychologically assess the personality of Mr. Ali Sina. One must not forget that Sina is by borne Iranian Muslim, belonging to Shite branch of Islam (which has quite twisted Islamic ideology, i.e. different from the original teaching of Islam, which were prevailed during the time of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH). Sina’s father & forefathers were also from Iranian race & Muslim, you keep reversing the tap of Sina’s family tree, until you reach at Zoroastrian period, because majority of Iranian (before the emergence of Islam were Zoroastrian). Now let’s move further, since it has been scientifically proven & we also realize that children posses some shifted biological traits from their parents i.e how we see some people laughing, weeping, walking, talking just like their immediate biological parents or we always see people saying that like fathers like son..

While answering other important question that why did Ali Sina think to built this website? Again we’ve to go to his past….

One must also remember that Sina also encountered the remarkable event of the history i.e. arrival of Khomeini & departure of Shah (Raza Shah Pahlavi, which family is still in France & fortunately Sina also escaped to France, since he could not face the hard line Muslim fundamentalist like Ayatollah Khomeini (whom book contains ‘No mercy’ words), interestingly Khomeini had also arrived from France!! (sounds like France was the centre of gravity for these days….), I don’t know Sina is still in France or not, anyways..

So, one must also keep in mind the series of events, Sina had encountered in his life, before immediately thinking that ‘Why he left Islam & his rage forced him to built such website…

While reviewing the following editorial Reviews about Ali Sina new Book about ‘Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)’, where he wrote that:

http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Muh ... 980994802/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Understanding Muhammad begins with a brief history of his life. Muhammad had a loveless childhood. He then passed to the care of relatives who took pity on him and spoiled him. As the result he developed narcissistic personality disorder, a trait that made him a megalomaniac bereft of conscience.


So understanding Ali Sina one must know his childhood, his departure (rather escape) from Iran, the mind blowing event of Islamic revolution, the mass massacre of Shah’s friend / fellows, he had been encountering, & finally his ‘rage’ that caused the website to be built, but I’m glad that he is still in ‘search of truth, searching for his un-answered question’ and I pray to God that his search of truth must be continued (as it looks now), otherwise he has promised that ‘as soon as he convinced, he will remove this site forever, but this is not happing in future, and it mustn’t be, because otherwise we will be deprive of a open learning centre.

I also congratulate the active members of this topic that our thread has gained the viewership of 2192!!, are we in the top 10??, only brother Yeezevee (‘one of the originators of FFI’ can tell us). :*)

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Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by charleslemartel »

afttak wrote:Ygalg wrote:
Islam is not a race.

So understanding Ali Sina one must know his childhood, his departure (rather escape) from Iran, the mind blowing event of Islamic revolution, the mass massacre of Shah’s friend / fellows, he had been encountering, & finally his ‘rage’ that caused the website to be built, but I’m glad that he is still in ‘search of truth, searching for his un-answered question’ and I pray to God that his search of truth must be continued (as it looks now), otherwise he has promised that ‘as soon as he convinced, he will remove this site forever, but this is not happing in future, and it mustn’t be, because otherwise we will be deprive of a open learning centre.

I also congratulate the active members of this topic that our thread has gained the viewership of 2192!!, are we in the top 10??, only brother Yeezevee (‘one of the originators of FFI’ can tell us). :*)
Understanding Ali Sina is not at all important for the following reasons:

1. He is not a messenger of Allah.
2. He does not have followers who he sends on assassination missions.
3. He has not caused death to billions of humans.
4. He has not turned raping women in to some sort of law.

But if you still wish to understand Ali Sina, wish you best in your quest. In my opinion though, it would be enough for you to understand his message.
Islam is a funny religion which is misunderstood by its scholars and correctly understood by ordinary Muslims.
Faith is keeping your eyes shut when looking at the world, and/or keeping your eyes open only for the beauty of the world.

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Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by ygalg »

afttak wrote:Dear the sentence could be understood in context of the genetic / cultural inheritances / tendencies.

the habit of a person to absorb cultural behavior of the people among he lives understood. well Ali is now lives in Canada. a different style of life from Islamic he was familiar with. a lifestyle which conflicts with the former. Richard dawkins lives in Christian country. he celebrates Christmas. he consider certain Christian values to be valid to human stability, despite the fact religion itself he invalidates to be true.

so does Ali celebrates Ramadan or any of Islamic holidays? in my impression, been here around quite some time. Ali void any possibility that there is one good merit in Islam. this not Islamic culturally thing to do.
belonging to Shite branch of Islam (which has quite twisted Islamic ideology, i.e. different from the original teaching of Islam, which were prevailed during the time of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH).
I find the Islamic ideology, to be twisted ideology. regardless the branch.
Last edited by ygalg on Fri May 29, 2009 11:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“a true believer as a person so fanatically committed to a cause that no amount of reality can make him abandon it” Eric Hoffer

yeezevee
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Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by yeezevee »

I am so glad to read afttak's integrated approach to Islam in combination with other religions including Shia Islam., which some like afttak consider it as a branch of Islam and "Shite branch of Islam (which has quite twisted Islamic ideology, i.e. different from the original teaching of Islam, which were prevailed during the time of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)". that is what afttak says., Good., But is hard for me to keep up and answer him all in one post as he talks many different histories and issues in one Post. let me dissect them in to individual points
1). He talks VERY LITTLE about Muhammad's Islam,

2). He says about Islam of Sufis that is originated after Muhammad,

3). Write about Muhammad Bin Qasim and Hindus Praying Him making his Dolls

4). Refers horrible slides of genocide, racism were running in front of his eyes around the world

5). The mass massacre in Gujarat, destroying Muslim mosques
Spoiler! :
, Hindu extremist parties & figures like Shiv Sena (SS), Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP), Bajrang Dal (BD), Bal Thackeray, Narendra Moodi, Uddhav Thackeraym, Shri Ram Sena (Army of Ram).
6) Writes about Hindus attacking Christians, Buddha followers.

7). Says in Pakistan, where Hindus are living with much liberty & peace. and Indian Spies in Pakistan living happily

8). Pakistanis, captured in India, ...was also brutally tortured to kill...

9). Stinking Hindu Temples.,
Spoiler! :
unbearable smell., The Hindu Sadhu, smells so badly, temples cows urine are consumed. rodents, monkeys where Panduts share with them food ..This is one of the vomit citing place in entire world where Hindu burned their dead ones, the half burned bodies float in the river. This place is fiesta for crows & other carnivores birds and believe me the Hindu pilgrims (who visit this place) have to take a DIP in these ‘holy waters’. :ohmy: http://www.funenclave.com/reality-bites" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... 25335.html

Note: Not for light hearted people, CARE!!

So I would again repeat that it is only Muslim historical monuments like Taj Mahal or the Hindus prostitution / massage places at green high areas that foreigners infest in India, otherwise one would vomit. :sly:
10. .. mentioned Zaid Hamid’s website (http://www.brasstacks.pk" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;)
Spoiler! :
and some of his discussed topics like Economic Terrorism, Hindu Zionist relations, 9/11 inside job in this thread.[/b]
As a fluent defense analyst, he is an outspoken speaker. He also remained in Jihaad for six years during Afghan Soviet War. Now he devoted to the study of regional and global political events and their implications for Pakistan's security and interests. I still didn’t yet watch the said debate, except all videos on aired at News One. Without doubt this guy is awesome. Let me watch the video.

Regards.
Those are the points afttak highlights at viewtopic.php?p=41104#p41104" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; .,

So dear afttak I am going to separate the issues based upon those 10 points of yours., So I will start with 10 in the next post..

with best regards
yeezevee

yeezevee
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Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by yeezevee »

So starting with that point 10 of Afttak let us go in to different folder "Pakistahn, Islam and Politics/Politicians of Pakistan " . there e can deal with Islam after subcontinent divided ., Dear Afttak, Here the subject being FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina., Let us NOT divert the topic.. but go here

viewtopic.php?p=41339#p41339" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with best regards
yeezevee

afttak
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Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by afttak »

For ygalg
the habit of a person to absorb cultural behavior of the people among he lives understood. well Ali is now lives in Canada. a different style of life from Islamic he was familiar with. a lifestyle which conflicts with the former. Richard dawkins lives in Christian country. he celebrates Christmas. he consider certain Christian values to be valid to human stability, despite the fact religion itself he invalidates to be true.

so does Ali celebrates Ramadan or any of Islamic holidays? in my impression, been here around quite some time. Ali void any possibility that there is one good merit in Islam. this not Islamic culturally thing to do.
O dear, it is not so weird to understand. When we use cultural term for any people of faith, it means that the individual is no more a hard line believer but superficially ‘interacting’ with it i.e. he keeps social relations with his people (of the faith), he attends marriage & funeral ceremonies, practice ‘fictitious’ dua (prayers). For getting marriage, or arrange marriage for his son or daughter he will certainly hire the services of a Mulla, Panduit or Priest (according to his cultural belief), they use certain theistic greetings / term while meeting with people of faith, for example they wickedly say ‘Khuda Hafiz’, Insha Allah etc. etc. but keep daggers in their armpit….. :) & finally at the time of death they are buried with utmost respect & rich religious ceremony, people pray for their salvation (irrespective of their ideology), Yes such wicked fellow do celebrate Eid & Ramadhan, just to be connected with the society….I hope you are getting my point.

Every person in this world has at least one cultural faith (of his surroundings), even outspoken Richard Dawkins has one then why not Sina.

To Yeezevee:

Dear it is not necessary & I didn’t ask your good self to reply (painfully & with a rage) all of my points one by one…..I understand that this thread is not suitable as what is being discussed, but during discussion anyone is free to decipher any notion (which make the discussion fruitful to understand). I just joined this website & I don’t want to interfere each & every thread of this website, as there are other people / group of people who are already discussing there. It is upto me & the availability of time that decides.

Anyway, I’ve noted your advice, & as soon as any topic is ‘suitable’ for me, I’ll surely ‘interfere’.
Have a nice weekend, please do spare sometime for your friends & families.

crazymonkie_
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Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by crazymonkie_ »

afttak wrote:Every person in this world has at least one cultural faith (of his surroundings), even outspoken Richard Dawkins has one then why not Sina.
Not necessarily. In fact, I can safely say that's NOT the case for a pretty big chunk of the West.

England is a special case because of the Restoration; when that happened, the Church of England re-established itself over the state religion of the Puritans under Cromwell and it definitively became the Church of England's country. So let's even be more specific here: England isn't just a Christian nation, it is a nation of Anglican Christians. They still have religious education, they still have daily prayer, and the Church of England gets specific tax breaks and cash directly from the people of the UK, regardless of their particular sect.

This is not the case in, for instance, Scandanavia. They are nominally still run by their various churches- but have not been so in fact for close to a hundred years now. Which means the idea of a 'cultural Christian' in Norway, Sweden, Denmark or Iceland (can't speak for Finland- they're not exactly Scandanavian and are WEIRD) does not hold true.

And this is doubly true in the U.S., a country founded by admittedly (some) very Christian people, but which is both nominally and in fact (save for some contradictions, like the annual prayer breakfast, the starting prayer of Congress, swearing in officials with the Bible, etc.) NOT a Christian nation; in fact, not a religious nation at all! It is purposefully a nation built with the idea that NO belief system should get primacy over another. The Founding Fathers, for the most part, had seen first-hand what a 'cultural Christianity' could do, and didn't want it to happen in their new nation.

Which means the U.S. was the first nation- as far as I know- to specifically not create a state religion. That Christianity was, and still is, very powerful in this country is undeniable; that there are many cultural Christians here (probably even more than in most European states) cannot be ignored; yet there are many in this country who are NOT cultural X, Y or Z religion, often simply because of the Establishment Clause.

So I wouldn't say 'EVERY person in this world has at least one cultural faith,' at least not when you're talking about the surrounding culture. There are not just exceptions; there are broad swaths were this is not the case. It is overwhelmingly the case that people DO have at least one cultural faith, but I'm quite a stickler for specificity in language (comes from working on an MA in English Lit, I suppose) so I am picking at this a bit.

afttak
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Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by afttak »

So I wouldn't say 'EVERY person in this world has at least one cultural faith,' at least not when you're talking about the surrounding culture. There are not just exceptions; there are broad swaths were this is not the case. It is overwhelmingly the case that people DO have at least one cultural faith, but I'm quite a stickler for specificity in language (comes from working on an MA in English Lit, I suppose) so I am picking at this a bit.
Dear I do appreciate your inputs, but I think you missed one of my important points (originally addressed to other participant ‘ygalg’). What you’ll call the ‘social interaction’ with your surrounding humans (who are at least having a faith). The term ‘cultural Christian or cultural Muslim’ or whatever cultural faith usually implies for those ‘believers’ who no longer believe in any kind of faith but in reality it is not, IT IS because of having socialized life with other surrounding humans.

For example, when we call a person ‘cultural Christian’ (apart from real practicing Christian) it doesn’t mean that an individual goes to Church, daily or once in a week, take oath on a Bible, donate the Church BUT because X, Y or Z is bound to be intact socially with their people of faith of his / her surroundings. For instance, if one of your friends die, you attend his / her funeral ceremony, participate each & every segment of religious ritual, no matter you don’t believe in God, Jesus or any theistic notion, in the same manner, you participate marriage ceremonies or celebrate of your own, then you go through all ‘holy rituals’, whatever you believe it or not, so in that condition, logically, you will be called a ‘Cultural Christian’ or Cultural Muslim, whatever you accept it or not, because as soon as you go through these events you are the part of this system which are not avoidable. It will remain until people of no faith will devise their own laws of living / rules, but the problem is when they do this, they will also be branded with some sort of faith…
Let’s start the story of ‘cultural impression’:

a) We born with a branded sort of theistic names like John, Muhammad, etc.

b) Systemically brain-washed with particular brand of faith (it is a later story whether we opt that notion or not)


c) Do celebrate different religious events like Christmas, Easter, Halloween, Eid, (whether you believe it or not), probably people are given holidays (whether they are non-believer, given bonuses / extra pays for celebration, or will you don’t accept that, in case if you want to upgrade from Fiat to Volvo??) :) Even people of countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway practice it unknowingly, this is it the cultural stamp..

d) Socially interact with other people of faith, participate in difference activities, they blatantly say God bless you, O God etc. etc.

e) Finally at the time of death we (they) are buried with utmost respect & rich religious ceremony goes on, people pray for salvation (irrespective of their ideology),

So again I’ll say that all people of Earth have at least one ‘cultural faith’ or enjoying with that unknowingly, because they are not out of the system but part of it.

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Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by crazymonkie_ »

I'd say in this case, the definitions we're using are rather different. I'm using 'cultural faith/religion' to mean the remnant bits that, while not necessarily strictly adhered to, are still believed in some fashion. You're using it terms of interactions with other people of the actual faith- which I think is too broad, because if that's the case, then Christians and Jews in the Middle East (not Israel, because that's a special case) are cultural Muslims; and Indian Muslims are cultural Hindus or Sikhs or Jains; and Japanese Buddhists are cultural Shintos; and so on.

Too broad. Too vague. It's true to a degree, but I'd even disagree with your point in that regard. It's very possible- in fact, happens more often than not; that such groups, whether really religious practicing members of a faith or kind of just going along, and particularly if other faiths (again, cultural as I've defined it or not) despise that first faith, will tend to congregate amongst their people. Perhaps they'll use this 'cultural faith' stuff as a way to set themselves apart, but the idea that interactions with those of their faith or even other faiths, rather than remnant practices, are what defines a 'cultural faith,' is I think incorrect.
a) We born with a branded sort of theistic names like John, Muhammad, etc.
Not always the case- Neither my parents, myself or my brother have cultural Christian names. Nor did many of my uncles; my cousins and second or third cousins I'm not so sure about (big family- but I've got a book).
b) Systemically brain-washed with particular brand of faith (it is a later story whether we opt that notion or not)
Kind of true, but not always the case. I, for instance, wasn't really taught any religious things. I went to vacation Bible school in the summer one year, watched some Christian puppet show, did some arts and crafts with beads, but didn't learn a single thing. And I'm hardly unique in that regard- there's got to be a LOT of effort put into indoctrinating children; they may just do things because they see adults doing it, or they may say things that get positive reinforcement from adults, but not necessarily really believe it.

I'd say that we're not talking about cultural faiths in that case. I'd say the line is crossed when those who are taught it begin to believe it, yet perhaps not all of it; or they did believe all of it and now don't. The point is, even though they may be surrounded by it, unless they must use the frameworks and terminology of the surrounding faith(s) to survive, yet don't believe or don't care, I'd not call them 'cultural X/Y/Z.' I'm not sure what I'd call them, though.
c) Do celebrate different religious events like Christmas, Easter, Halloween, Eid, (whether you believe it or not), probably people are given holidays (whether they are non-believer, given bonuses / extra pays for celebration, or will you don’t accept that, in case if you want to upgrade from Fiat to Volvo??) :) Even people of countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway practice it unknowingly, this is it the cultural stamp..
Well, first of all, three of those four were outright stolen by the Christians. They then changed the dates of Jesus' death, birth and resurrection to conform to it because they knew they couldn't entirely stamp out the practices that came before Christianity. So I'd make it a case of cultural paganism, if anything!

Secondly, the bonuses or just general good behavior are a reflection of much more universal human values- not just the concern for the higher ethical/moral values of the believers, or even 'cultural faith' people- in a given faith. Meaning, monotheists didn't invent the good stuff- they merely used it for their purposes. I think of it more like subverting their unconscious feeling of superiority and their belief that the metaphysical universe revolves around their exclusive club.
d) Socially interact with other people of faith, participate in difference activities, they blatantly say God bless you, O God etc. etc.
Which more has to do with 'remnant' faith than with interaction with those who still hold the faith. Social interaction, unless it's in the context of a suppressed/oppressed/misunderstood minority talking, almost in code, to an overweening majority that is not above persecuting or extinguishing the minority (such as with ME Christians and Muslims respectively), I'd say this is not a case of interactionist cultural faith. I'd say it's more a survival mechanism.
e) Finally at the time of death we (they) are buried with utmost respect & rich religious ceremony goes on, people pray for salvation (irrespective of their ideology),
Remnant faith, definitely. But again, this is not always the case- which was my fine point of contention. That it's usually so, yes, that I'll grant. But that it's always the case, that was my only issue. I've personally placed into the newspaper many obituaries that say there will be no services for the dead, or there will be no priest/pastor/whatever. Even where I am, a very conservative area, this is not that unusual. In more liberal areas, it is more the case.
So again I’ll say that all people of Earth have at least one ‘cultural faith’ or enjoying with that unknowingly, because they are not out of the system but part of it.
And I'll disagree with you again. Though we agree in the vast majority of cases, we disagree when it comes to your use of 'all'. There are a number- and growing- who, while perhaps surrounded by 'cultural' faiths, or direct faiths, are not part of any cultural faith tradition. These are a minority, and perhaps will continue to be a minority, but they are out there.

yeezevee
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Re: FFI is no more the site of Dr Sina

Post by yeezevee »

afttak writes and writes
Spoiler! :
Dear I do appreciate your inputs, but I think you missed one of my important points (originally addressed to other participant ‘ygalg’). What you’ll call the ‘social interaction’ with your surrounding humans (who are at least having a faith). The term ‘cultural Christian or cultural Muslim’ or whatever cultural faith usually implies for those ‘believers’ who no longer believe in any kind of faith but in reality it is not, IT IS because of having socialized life with other surrounding humans.

For example, when we call a person ‘cultural Christian’ (apart from real practicing Christian) it doesn’t mean that an individual goes to Church, daily or once in a week, take oath on a Bible, donate the Church BUT because X, Y or Z is bound to be intact socially with their people of faith of his / her surroundings. For instance, if one of your friends die, you attend his / her funeral ceremony, participate each & every segment of religious ritual, no matter you don’t believe in God, Jesus or any theistic notion, in the same manner, you participate marriage ceremonies or celebrate of your own, then you go through all ‘holy rituals’, whatever you believe it or not, so in that condition, logically, you will be called a ‘Cultural Christian’ or Cultural Muslim, whatever you accept it or not, because as soon as you go through these events you are the part of this system which are not avoidable. It will remain until people of no faith will devise their own laws of living / rules, but the problem is when they do this, they will also be branded with some sort of faith…
Let’s start the story of ‘cultural impression’:

a) We born with a branded sort of theistic names like John, Muhammad, etc.

b) Systemically brain-washed with particular brand of faith (it is a later story whether we opt that notion or not)


c) Do celebrate different religious events like Christmas, Easter, Halloween, Eid, (whether you believe it or not), probably people are given holidays (whether they are non-believer, given bonuses / extra pays for celebration, or will you don’t accept that, in case if you want to upgrade from Fiat to Volvo??) :) Even people of countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway practice it unknowingly, this is it the cultural stamp..

d) Socially interact with other people of faith, participate in difference activities, they blatantly say God bless you, O God etc. etc.

e) Finally at the time of death we (they) are buried with utmost respect & rich religious ceremony goes on, people pray for salvation (irrespective of their ideology),

So again I’ll say that all people of Earth have at least one ‘cultural faith’ or enjoying with that unknowingly, because they are not out of the system but part of it.
My goodness dear afttak you write good and you write too much irrelevant stuff. Any way Zaid Hamid.. Zaid Hamid.

let me give you these links on him good one and funny one watch it.. interesting discussion..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsz92tm-Jkw" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; 1 of 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wYVBXGkfdFs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; 2 of 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8KuKc6mUqVs" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; 3 of 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rf6EZ1VcVQ" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; 4 of 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9YxfSv7mt0Q" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; 5 of 5


indeed a funny guys from that land.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M6Rssf65F7M&NR=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rKDEfYe33_0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=362ORZhXJyg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; part2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LvAb30sxa2Y" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; part3


with best wishes
yeezevee

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