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Reflection

Re: Reflection

Postby pr126 » Fri Jan 11, 2013 10:40 am

I have a problem with "if you doubt" part of the verse.

What if his "doubt" is over ridden by his urges for a young girl? As one would expect.
Not forgetting that the father is eager for the dowry and can lie about that?
Are they all " in doubt" sitting around the girl waiting and watching her to start menstruating? In 7th century Arabia? :drool:
Come' on!
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Re: Reflection

Postby manfred » Fri Jan 11, 2013 11:16 am

Hi garudamann
Your response as to the age of Aisha was that sahih Bukhari must be wrong. Then you must dismiss much of Islamic law and practices too. You say it would disagree with the Qur'an.

However you gave a reply to your own objection, providing evidence that is fact this is not so:

QS. 65:4. And those who no longer expect menstruation among your women - if you doubt, then their period is three months, and [also for] those who have not menstruated. And for those who are pregnant, their term is until they give birth. And whoever fears Allah - He will make for him of his matter ease.


Read it closely: AND ALSO FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT MENSTRUATED

So the Qur'an, in the verse you yourself quoted allows a marriage to a girl who has not yet menstruated. The waiting period is three month. There you have it. Black on white. Marrying a very young girl is allowed, before puberty. Non-penetrative sex with children, as young as a baby, is also allowed in Islam.

The age of Aisha is not disputed by Muslim except when talking to nasty kafirs like me in Western countries. Then many Muslims get embarrassed and make up all sorts of excuses.


Also Mohammed said that silence is consent.

A nine year old girl have no real understanding of marriage, and the natural thing for any little girl, seeing a powerful man with her parents who are frightened and worried, would be silence. If you know how children behave then you know that I am right. If not, try an experiment: Go to the a big mall in your town and find a mother with a girl about nine years old. Go up to them and chat to the girl. You will see most likely she will try to hide behind her mom, and not answer you.

Girls that age are often shy and do not reply to strangers, particularly when they see their own parents not being comfortable. Abu Bakr's "But I am your brother" clearly shows considerable unease, distress, even.

In short, Mohammed used his position of power to force the issue, telling a story of a "dream" making it look as if Allah specifically wanted Aisha to be Mohammed's bride.

Aisha was too young to give consent. Silence is NOT consent. The marriage was invalid and Mohammed effectively raped a child. Furthermore, it is a common trait of a pedophile that there is an a attraction to children of either sex. In fact, we have evidence of exactly that.

'Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 52 :: Hadith 143
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The Prophet said to Abu Talha, "Choose one of your boy servants to serve me in my expedition to Khaibar." So, Abu Talha took me letting me ride behind him while I was a boy nearing the age of puberty. I used to serve Allah's Apostle when he stopped to rest. I heard him saying repeatedly, "O Allah! I seek refuge with You from distress and sorrow, from helplessness and laziness, from miserliness and cowardice, from being heavily in debt and from being overcome by men.'

'Hadith Number 16245, Volume Title: "The Sayings of the Syrians," Chapter Title: "Hadith of Mu’awiya Ibn Abu Sufyan": "I saw the prophet – pbuh – sucking on the tongue or the lips of Al-Hassan son of Ali, may the prayers of Allah be upon him. For no tongue or lips that the prophet sucked on will be tormented (by hell fire)



This fits in with the overall picture: Mohammed had pedophile tendencies. They found themselves into the Qur'an even... paradise has both young virgins and "serving boys". In many ways the paradise of the Qur'an reveals a lot about the personality of Mohammed.

I am sorry to mention such sordid things to you, but I think it is important to look at Mohammed without any rosy glasses.
Jesus: "Ask and you will receive." Mohammed: "Take and give me 20%"
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Re: Reflection

Postby Eagle » Fri Jan 11, 2013 1:27 pm

manfred wrote:Read it closely: AND ALSO FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT MENSTRUATED

So the Qur'an, in the verse you yourself quoted allows a marriage to a girl who has not yet menstruated. The waiting period is three month. There you have it. Black on white. Marrying a very young girl is allowed, before puberty. Non-penetrative sex with children, as young as a baby, is also allowed in Islam.


65:4"And (as for) those of your women/nisaa who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair".

The verse comes in the context of divorce obviously as seen from the preceding verses, and is an expounding of the general rule mentionned prior in 2:228. It speaks of nisaa which only means women as any Arabic speaking person knows, not atfal/children who havent reached puberty 24:58, and obviously only nisaa can menstruate 2:222. This is where the discussion ends between intellectually honest persons but since the bitter and angry enemy of Islam does not easily humble himself in front of the truth, he will raise many little issues to try and confuse this simple verse.

Ive had this discussion with Cassie from this forum a while ago and she raised several objections to try and support the ridiculous idea to any Arabic speaking person that the word "nisaa" includes little girls. Following are all the arguments she used.

For example she said nisaa includes young girls in 4:11. This is negated by the fact they will only be allowed their inheritence once they reach mental and physical maturity as confirmed in 4:5-6.

She then tried using 4:127. Unfortunately, the nisaa of the beginning of the verse doesnt include the wildan (masculine genitive that may either include boys and girls, or boys only BUT NEVER ONLY GIRLS) of the second section of the verse that expounds on the original question that was essentially concerning the social rights of those who were deprived of them, and the nisaa/women as well as the "weak" children and the orphans were typically deprived of such rights so the Quran reiterates the fundamental principles and redirects them to what was stated earlier in 4:1-12.

She also tried using 7:127,40:25 that speak of the punishement that were ordered to be inflicted on Firon's own people who followed Moses: their sons were slain and their women kept alive to serve Firon and those with him.
The verses say "We will slay their sons and spare/nastahyy their women/nisaa'ahum, and surely we are masters over them". "al-istihya" means to wish someone to remain alive. The word also carries the meaning of "shame" and indecency towards the women in that case. It is clear from the verse that Firon kept their women alive for sexual abuse, to humiliate their husbands who betrayed him and this is a known humiliation many tyrants of all times have done on their subjects either for punishement or for mental domination. It was such exemplary retaliation inflicted on Firon's own people thus demonstrating his degree of cruelty, along with the other hardships they were suffering in bondage that caused only a few of Moses' people to openly believe in him at the beginning of his call until he urged them to put all their trust in the God whom they believe in and who will save them 7:128-9,10:83-6. That at first only a few believed and that the majority preferred remaining in bondage than see Firon's retribution inflicted on them for their rebellion is reported in Exodus4:29-31,5:19-23,6:1-12.

She also raised other similar verses 2:49,7:141,14:6,28:4 that come in the context of the favors bestowed on the Israelites such as their delivrance from bondage. The verses are a reminder of the cruel torments and abasements they were subjected to under Firon before their deliverance came from Allah; their sons were slain and, just like the men in Firon's assembly who became Muslims after witnessing Musa's miracles, their women were kept alive as a humiliation and abasement, to serve Firon and his people "And when We delivered you from Pharaoh's people, who subjected you/yasumunakum to severe torment, killing your sons and sparing/yastahyuna your women/nisaa'akum" as well as cause the gradual extinction of their race through merging with other races. "al-istihya" carries the same meaning as in 7:127,40:25 and with "yasumunakum" the Quran stresses the severity of these torments that were "imposed" on them in addition to their state of slavery.

The "favor" of Firon of sparing the Israelites' daughters -as related in the Biblical account Exodus 1- has nothing to do in those verses that relate the torments and humiliations the enslaved Israelites were inflicted with. The girls left to live were left in their family or father's custody since Firon had no interest in them and was only after their potential male savior. Those verses from the Quran, contrary to the OT in Exodus1, speak of the systematic punishements ORDERED to be inflicted on them (hence the very appropriate word yasummunakum); the killing of their boys, the abuse of their women as was typically done by tyrants of all times. In fact it isnt difficult or beyond common sense to guess why such horrible humiliation was left out by the Jewish scribes when recounting their period in bondage, such type of abuse is typically preferred left unspoken of.

Cassie then appealed to some commentators who have incorrectly tried including nisaa AND little girls in those "who have not had their courses" but none of them ever stated nisaa means little girls, as she originaly insinuated.

The words of the verse 65:4 have no specificity of age and are interested in dealing with the conditions of menstruation and such conditions are attached to the word nisaa in the beginning of the sentence, which only means women. Even the bukhari hadith sometimes quoted by this forum population, which has an added comentary in it that isnt neither in the narration of the events nor in the original Arabic, is speaking of a marriage case which makes the injunctions of Sura 65 totally inapplicable to the subject matter. The hadith is related again in different words two or three narrations down in Bukhari in more details. It isnt even speaking of "young girl" and in fact how does a 'young girl' come present herself before the Prophet to ask him to marry her?

There are several physiological reasons for otherwise normally menstruating women that might cause them to fail having their courses, including pregnancy, medical conditions, hormonal dysfunctioning, stress etc. It can be delayed and some women may not bleed very much, to the point its hardly noticeable such as what happens in the menopausal stage, before the postmenopause which is the period where women cannot get pregnant anymore. Those "who have not had their courses" therefore covers all these categories while also speaking of those that might be in postmenopause and unable to carry children anymore but one isnt 100% sure they have reached such stage, hence the words "if you have a doubt".

Some unsuccesfully tried to argue that since postmenopausal women are included in "those who have not had their courses" and are nevertheless told to wait for 3 idda yet they cannot get pregnant anymore, then nothing negates that prepubescent girls can also be included in "those who have not had their courses" and be told too to wait 3 idda despite the impossibility of them being pregnant. They think this solves the issue regarding the idda which is meant at ascertaining a potential pregancy. But what they missed is that the Quran includes the postmenopausal women with "those who have not had their courses" ONLY if there is a doubt.

The purpose of the 3 month waiting period of idda is to determine if the woman about to divorce is pregnant 2:228. For a woman who menstruates normally, such delay might almost certainly mean pregancy and also the womb starts to take on visible signs of pregnancy at that stage. This is why 33:49 states those that are divorced prior to sexual intercourse do not have to go through the idda waiting period. Obviously without sexual intercourse, there is no possibility of pregnancy.

If the Quran is endorsing the marriage of pre-pubescent girls, and is actually including them in "who have not had their courses" then the very injunction of the idda would be totally absurd because pregnancy for them would be an impossibility. That the issue of idda is all about potential pregnancy is also seen with the second part of the verse 65:4 which mentions the case of confirmed pregnant women, while the first part dealt with those that were potentially pregnant, saying their waiting period is no longer 3 months, but the whole length of the pregnancy. During both cases -that of a woman potentially pregnant having to wait for 3 idda and a confirmed pregnant woman having to wait until delivery- the man must fully sustain the woman without any kind of oppression, though they are going through a hard phase that will probably end in divorce 65:6-7.

To sum up:
1. The Quran explicitly denies the marriage of prepubescent and immature girls and boys in sura 4.
2. The Quran attaches the conditions to the words Nisa which only means adult women.
3. The concept of 3 idda is to determine if the lady is pregnant and the Quran specifically orders the men to calculate it with precision, because such a state has to be fundamentally known to protect the lineage of the child, as well as it has repercussions on the divorce itself. A man may re-think his divorce because his wife is about to give birth to the child.

One more time:

There is no wisdom in waiting a specific idda period unless it is to determine a specific fact as related to the woman, and that is, if she is pregnant. A woman that does not have sexual intercourse with her husband, there is no way in her actually getting pregnant so the whole notion of waiting 3 idda periods is not even relevant as stated in 33:49.

manfred wrote:A nine year old girl


Not only Aisha was not 9, she was also well mature when just married to the prophet. But that is another discussion. However i do recall than in the tradition of a certain religion which is that of the vast majority of this forum population, a certain Joseph at 90 married Mary, the mother of Jesus, who was 12 which is the double age difference than that of Muhammad when he allegedly married Aisha.
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Re: Reflection

Postby Garudaman » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:17 pm

pr126 wrote:Are they all " in doubt" sitting around the girl waiting and watching her to start menstruating? In 7th century Arabia? :drool:
Come' on!

so, you think, if the age of menstruation in girls, it impossible be common knowledge, on the 7th century (or even since the stone age)? :lotpot:
any Atheist will not be able to explain, how the air could be a coincidence, can be used by bird to evolve fly (QS. 16:79)!

choose the truth or falsity is the right of every person, because that twist the truth into as if falsity is a violation of human right!
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Re: Reflection

Postby Garudaman » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:31 pm

manfred wrote:The age of Aisha is not disputed by Muslim except when talking to nasty kafirs like me in Western countries. Then many Muslims get embarrassed and make up all sorts of excuses.

QS. 4:82. Then do they not reflect upon the Qur'an? If it had been from [any] other than Allah , they would have found within it much contradiction.

QS. 33:21. There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allah an excellent pattern for anyone whose hope is in Allah and the Last Day and [who] remembers Allah often.


so, if contrary to the Quran, then it's not what the Messenger of God did! :sml:
any Atheist will not be able to explain, how the air could be a coincidence, can be used by bird to evolve fly (QS. 16:79)!

choose the truth or falsity is the right of every person, because that twist the truth into as if falsity is a violation of human right!
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Re: Reflection

Postby Melograne » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:34 pm

All right Garudaman we all have understood your point of view! if you doubt after penetrating a little prepubescent girl, the wait is 3 months.
:clap:
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Re: Reflection

Postby frankie » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:37 pm

Eagle:

Not only Aisha was not 9, she was also well mature when just married to the prophet. But that is another discussion. However i do recall than in the tradition of a certain religion which is that of the vast majority of this forum population, a certain Joseph at 90 married Mary, the mother of Jesus, who was 12 which is the double age difference than that of Muhammad when he allegedly married Aisha.


Evidence to refute your claim, below:

AISHA BINT ABU BAKR
daughter of Abu Bakr and third wife of Muhammad. According to the ahadith in Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, and numerous other reports, she married Muhammad at the age of 6 when Muhammad was 53, and they consummated their marriage when she was at the age of 9.

Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). (Sahih Bukhari 7.88)
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) (Sahih Bukhari 8.151)
Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' " (Sahih Bukhari 9.140)
Some Muslims claimed that Muhammad did not initiate the marriage with Aisha, but that Abu Bakr, after Aisha was spunned by a prospector and was not able to find another man to marry her, approached Muhammad to marry here. However, the following hadith clearly showed that it was Muhammad who was the initiator and Abu Bakr was even shocked at that suggestion.
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry." (Sahih Bukhari 7.18)
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. (Sahih Bukhari 5.236. see also Sahih Bukhari 7.64, Sahih Bukhari 7.65)
Aisha was surprised at the (consummation) of marriage:
Narrated Aisha:
When the Prophet married me, my mother came to me and made me enter the house (of the Prophet) and nothing surprised me but the coming of Allah's Apostle to me in the forenoon. (Sahih Bukhari 7.90)
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Sahih Bukhari 5.234)

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter. (Sunan Abu Da'ud 41.4915, Sunan Abu Da'ud 41.4916, Sunan Abu Da'ud 41.4917)
Aisha related many hadiths which became the basis of many portions of the Shar'ia. She was given the title Mother of the Believers (Ummul Mu'minin).

However i do recall than in the tradition of a certain religion which is that of the vast majority of this forum population, a certain Joseph at 90 married Mary, the mother of Jesus, who was 12


Where is your evidence to substantiate your claim?
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Re: Reflection

Postby Garudaman » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:39 pm

Melograne wrote:All right Garudaman we all have understood your point of view! if you doubt after penetrating a little prepubescent girl, the wait is 3 months.
:clap:

how anyone can doubt the emptiness of womb, from girls who haven't menstrual? you think, girls who haven't menstruate, already can pregnant? :roll:
any Atheist will not be able to explain, how the air could be a coincidence, can be used by bird to evolve fly (QS. 16:79)!

choose the truth or falsity is the right of every person, because that twist the truth into as if falsity is a violation of human right!
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Re: Reflection

Postby Melograne » Fri Jan 11, 2013 3:54 pm

All right Garudaman we all have understood your point of view. If you doubt after having penetrated a little prepubescent girl, the wait is 3 months.
thank you :clap:
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Re: Reflection

Postby Melograne » Fri Jan 11, 2013 4:10 pm

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Re: Reflection

Postby frankie » Fri Jan 11, 2013 6:03 pm

Eagle:

P.S.
Not only Aisha was not 9, she was also well mature when just married to the prophet


Mohammed marrying a child is only a cause for concern because he is said to be the Muslim role model for all times and places.His actions have caused untold suffering for children throughout the centuries,and still do.

The point being,Mohammed legitimised child marriage for all time,only because he is said to be Allahs best example for humanity to follow.Science tells us that child marriage is highly detrimental to a childs mental and physical health,should Allah in his omniscience not have known this to be so,and if he did, why did he not stop Mohammed sexually abusing a child,and legitimising sexual abuse of children for all time?
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Re: Reflection

Postby sum » Sun Jan 13, 2013 8:46 pm

Hello Garudaman

You did not answer my question -

Tell me Garudaman, could you have written the guidance on sex as in Koran 65:4 in a more clear and unambiguous way?

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Re: Reflection

Postby Garudaman » Mon Jan 14, 2013 6:02 am

that verse is look like not too clear & ambiguous, only if "if you doubt" part be ignored! :roll:
any Atheist will not be able to explain, how the air could be a coincidence, can be used by bird to evolve fly (QS. 16:79)!

choose the truth or falsity is the right of every person, because that twist the truth into as if falsity is a violation of human right!
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Re: Reflection

Postby Melograne » Tue Jan 15, 2013 12:23 am

These kind of doubts belong only to perverse people! Children have not to be molested sexually! People who leave children alone never have these kind of doubts !!!They don't have these kind of doubts just because they not even think having intercourse with children! From here we see that Muhammad have been a perverse person. A God's prophet shall give the good example! What kind of example is this? Is that the example of God? It is just impossible! It is impossible Allah have said a something like that! An Allah like this is only from the Muhammad's imagination!
Allah exist Yes I am agree with that!
But Allah have nothing to do with the Muhammad story and the Qur'an.
Qur'an is false and Muhammad is a crook!
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Re: Reflection

Postby enceladus » Tue Jan 15, 2013 7:22 am

Melograne wrote:Fact is that I am a Frenchman and I had done this error in English language. Thank you for your remark pr126.


Welcome, Melograne!

I've seen the recent formation of "Generation Identitaire" in your country. That seems to be a very positive and welcome development in the fight against Islam.

I am also a supporter of the French action in Mali, where they are bombing the Islamists there (who are trying to set up yet another "Islamic paradise" like Somalia.... :roll: )

I look forward to seeing your contributions in the forums here. Bye for now -
- enceladus
Undermining Islam -
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=15110

Refuting "divine Quran" -
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=11329

Refuting a Quran verse -
http://forum09.faithfreedom.org/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=13098
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Re: Reflection

Postby sum » Tue Jan 15, 2013 11:16 am

Hello Garudaman

You are still not answering my question, are you?

Your quote -
that verse is look like not too clear & ambiguous, only if "if you doubt" part be ignored!

You have hit the nail on the head. If it was written in a more clear and unambiguous way there would be no doubt - all would be clear.

I will ask again. Could you write a more clear and unambiguous verse so that it was clear to everybody and not open to doubt?

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Re: Reflection

Postby sum » Fri Jan 18, 2013 9:47 am

Hello Garudaman

Where are you?

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Re: Reflection

Postby Eagle » Sun Jan 20, 2013 2:51 am

Eagle wrote:Not only Aisha was not 9, she was also well mature when just married to the prophet. But that is another discussion. However i do recall than in the tradition of a certain religion which is that of the vast majority of this forum population, a certain Joseph at 90 married Mary, the mother of Jesus, who was 12 which is the double age difference than that of Muhammad when he allegedly married Aisha.


frankie wrote:Evidence to refute your claim, below:


Spoiler! :
AISHA BINT ABU BAKR
daughter of Abu Bakr and third wife of Muhammad. According to the ahadith in Sahih al-Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, and numerous other reports, she married Muhammad at the age of 6 when Muhammad was 53, and they consummated their marriage when she was at the age of 9.

Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death). (Sahih Bukhari 7.88)
Narrated 'Aisha:
I used to play with the dolls in the presence of the Prophet, and my girl friends also used to play with me. When Allah's Apostle used to enter (my dwelling place) they used to hide themselves, but the Prophet would call them to join and play with me. (The playing with the dolls and similar images is forbidden, but it was allowed for 'Aisha at that time, as she was a little girl, not yet reached the age of puberty.) (Fateh-al-Bari page 143, Vol.13) (Sahih Bukhari 8.151)
Narrated 'Aisha:
Allah's Apostle said to me, "You were shown to me twice (in my dream) before I married you. I saw an angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said to him, 'Uncover (her),' and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' Then you were shown to me, the angel carrying you in a silken piece of cloth, and I said (to him), 'Uncover (her), and behold, it was you. I said (to myself), 'If this is from Allah, then it must happen.' " (Sahih Bukhari 9.140)
Some Muslims claimed that Muhammad did not initiate the marriage with Aisha, but that Abu Bakr, after Aisha was spunned by a prospector and was not able to find another man to marry her, approached Muhammad to marry here. However, the following hadith clearly showed that it was Muhammad who was the initiator and Abu Bakr was even shocked at that suggestion.
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet asked Abu Bakr for 'Aisha's hand in marriage. Abu Bakr said "But I am your brother." The Prophet said, "You are my brother in Allah's religion and His Book, but she (Aisha) is lawful for me to marry." (Sahih Bukhari 7.18)
Narrated Hisham's father:
Khadija died three years before the Prophet departed to Medina. He stayed there for two years or so and then he married 'Aisha when she was a girl of six years of age, and he consumed that marriage when she was nine years old. (Sahih Bukhari 5.236. see also Sahih Bukhari 7.64, Sahih Bukhari 7.65)
Aisha was surprised at the (consummation) of marriage:
Narrated Aisha:
When the Prophet married me, my mother came to me and made me enter the house (of the Prophet) and nothing surprised me but the coming of Allah's Apostle to me in the forenoon. (Sahih Bukhari 7.90)
Narrated Aisha:
The Prophet engaged me when I was a girl of six (years). We went to Medina and stayed at the home of Bani-al-Harith bin Khazraj. Then I got ill and my hair fell down. Later on my hair grew (again) and my mother, Um Ruman, came to me while I was playing in a swing with some of my girl friends. She called me, and I went to her, not knowing what she wanted to do to me. She caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house. I was breathless then, and when my breathing became Allright, she took some water and rubbed my face and head with it. Then she took me into the house. There in the house I saw some Ansari women who said, "Best wishes and Allah's Blessing and a good luck." Then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me (for the marriage). Unexpectedly Allah's Apostle came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him, and at that time I was a girl of nine years of age. (Sahih Bukhari 5.234)

Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) married me when I was seven or six. When we came to Medina, some women came. according to Bishr's version: Umm Ruman came to me when I was swinging. They took me, made me prepared and decorated me. I was then brought to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), and he took up cohabitation with me when I was nine. She halted me at the door, and I burst into laughter. (Sunan Abu Da'ud 41.4915, Sunan Abu Da'ud 41.4916, Sunan Abu Da'ud 41.4917)
Aisha related many hadiths which became the basis of many portions of the Shar'ia. She was given the title Mother of the Believers (Ummul Mu'minin).


All the above is old news. For good attempts at defending Aisha's age of 9 at marriage there are 2 main articles written by Muslims you can turn to to find the "best arguments", which i'll dismantle below.

The articles are
GFHaddad http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp? ... 604&CATE=1
Ayman b. Khaalid http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q= ... 4CDU3pczkg

Now if we take all resources available and start with the works of historians such as Tabari, we see that Aisha, along with all of Abu Bakr's children were born in Jahilliya, meaning there is no way possible she could have been less than 13 years old at the time of Hijra as some ahadith suggest. In his paper that is essentially nothing but a re-hash of GFHaddad's arguments, Ayman b. Khalid, adds a sentence that is inexistant in Tabari's report: "So all four children were begotten by those two wives whom we mentioned that he married during the pre-Islamic period". The phrase "that he married" doesnt exist in the Arabic. Ayman b. Khaalid added it, on purpose to try and connect the timing (jaahiliya) to the marriages while it clearly is defining the time when "all four children were begotten".

If we turn to sahih Bukhari, we see that the revelation of al qamar:46 occured when Aisha was a young girl/jariya. The chapter ends a mere 9 verses later at v55 and it is obvious from the topic that v46 to v55 were revealed together and could not have been cut off. So the argument that some suras were revealed in portions with long intervals of time in between verses is moot. Besides all scholars agree this is a Meccan sura, whose finalization the opinion varies between the 4th and 8th year of the call. Ayman b. Khalid tries presenting a single view from an exegete (without quoting him) arguing that all of suratul qamar was revealed in Mecca except for 3 verses (which Ayman b. Khalid fails to mention obviously due to the fact that even this exceptional view doesnt support his attempt at insinuating that v46 was among those "late" verses). But even if we consider Aisha's traditionaly accepted date of birth in the 5th year of revelation as true, and in addition accept the latest estimation for the date when sura al-qamar was finalized on the 8th year of revelation as true, then this would mean Aisha was able to memorize with precision a verse and its reference when she was mearly 3, which is highly unlikely. Even if one were to accept Ayman b. Khalid's argument that the sura was revealed in stages (keeping in mind he offers no support for this view other than that of an exegete whom he fails to quote), thereby pushing further a year at most for the finalization of that short sura, it would imply that Aisha at most was 4 when she memorized a precise verse and its reference which is equally unlikely.

Other historians such as Ibn Ishaq and Ibn Hisham say she accepted Islam before Umar, who himself converted in the 9th year of revelation according to the evidence brought by Ayman b. Khalid. These historians both say she was among the earliest converts. Ibn Ishaq places her at the 18th and ibn Hisham places her approximately at the 20th place chronologicaly. This takes us back during the 1st or at most the 2nd year of revelation. Aisha isnt supposed to have even been breathing at the time if she was truly born in the 5th year of revelation. Even if we assume that this date of birth is true, how can anybody reasonably argue that someone willingly accepts a religion 3 years later at 3 years old (ie before Umar's conversion in the 9th year)?

In Bukhari's Kitab-ul-Kafalat, Aisha describes her vivid memory of events that supposedly happenned when she was but an infant, such as Abu bakr's migration to Ethiopia in the 5th year of revelation meaning her birth could not have been later than the pre-islamic era, as confirmed in Tabari's reports.

Before her union with the prophet she was engaged to Jubayr ibn Mut'im ibn Adi whose father was a vehement enemy of the prophet, before Abu Bakr accepted Islam. The engagement was broken off by Jubayr's father when Abu Bakr converted and planned to go to Abyssinia in the 5th year of revelation, the year of Aisha's alleged birth.

She clearly relates herself as having played an active role during the migration, such as in getting the travelling goods together in such a highly tense situation per the narrations, making it highly unlikely for an 8 year old to have been acting in such a way. Again she describes herself how she reached Shajra along with the soldiers in the battle of Badr that took place in 2H and nobody under 15 years old was allowed to join the soldiers in the battlefield obviously to avoid being captured and raised as idol-worshippers or killed and become a problem for the army yet she is alleged to have been 9 or 10 at the time and in addition was so immature she was still playing with dolls according to Hisham ibn Urwa, meaning she had no business whatsoever in being at the battlefield. In fact there are reports of the prophet sending back some Muslim youths who tried, out of eagerness, to go along with the Muslim army. The very notion that the Prophet would set an age limit to 15 for people to participate in battle, but allow 9-10 year olds or 11 year old females to accompany the battlefield, especially in such situations, is against all common sense. Why would young men below 15 be forbidden to be at the battle-field, but 9-10 year old girls be allowed to take care of people wounded and on the verge of death. Does one think the Prophet would have exposed these girls to the chance of being captured and eventually mistreated and abused by masters who used to force their female slaves into prostitution?

Ayman b. Khalid brings a few reports in an attempt to refute the notion that young, immature and pre-pubescent children were not allowed to be present in battles. He brings 2 reports none of which showing immature and prepubescent boys asking to participate in battles and their request being granted. His 1st report only shows that a ghulam (commonly used for a prepubescent child but can also be used idiomaticaly) had died during the battle of Badr. The young boy could have chosen to go by himself and in fact Ayman b. Khalid's 2nd report shows how 2 young boys (there is no indication about their age nor their sexual maturity in the Arabic) suddenly showed up alongside a Muslim soldier at the battle of Badr and how he was astonished and uneasy at their presence. In the same report, this soldier later refers to them as "rajul" which actually refutes Ayman b. Khalid's position that this 2nd report refers to prepubescent boys. It has absolutely no relevance to the point of establishing an age for the Muslims at the battlfield. One cannot but logically assume that none had given them the authorization to participate at the battle due to them adding more difficulties to the Muslim fighters, but that they, like the boy spoken of in the 1st report, went forth by themselves.

Anas further describes Aisha along with Umm Sulaim lifting their dresses up to avoid any hindrance in their movement, at the batttle of Uhud. The idea of lifting the dress in Arab tradition, as is evident in abundant pre-Islamic poetry is a reference to women fleeing the battlefield, having to raise their skirts exposing their shins. This is what happened in Uhud and is why the running of the wives of the Prophet is tied into the mass confusion and the lack of defense around the Prophet, when the defenses broke: “On the day (of the battle) of Uhud when (some) people retreated and left the Prophet, I saw Aisha daughter of Abu Bakr and Umm Sulaim, with their robes tucked up so that the bangles around their ankles were visible hurrying with their water skins (in another narration it is said, ‘carrying the water skins on their backs’). Then they would pour the water in the mouths of the people, and return to fill the water skins again and came back again to pour water in the mouths of the people”. How can people think that at the height of the battle, when Muslims were panicking and even leaving the Prophet, Aisha was 9-11 years old, not even slightly panicking attending bravely wounded soldiers, was one who played with dolls and a mere child when she was allowed to go into battle?
The fact is Aisha actively participated in battles during the prophet's life, assissting the men at the battlefield along with other women, which is why by the time of Ali's reign as Caliph, she gathered enough experience and credibility that she could rally a huge fighting force.

None of the narrations saying she was 6 when engaged and 9 when moved with the prophet come from Mecca or Medina and whether from Muslim or Bukhari's sahih books combined, it is the same hadith narrated in multiple ways, which refutes the position that Aisha's age is established by multiple reliable sources. Even the two hadith in Bukhari claiming that Aisha says her age are attributed to Hisham bin Urwa, so they arent even her own words. It is only in Muslim, in which the author tries to place the permissabilitiy of marrying young women are two hadith quoted which claim the words from Aisha, but they all report additional material from Hisham that arent reported in Bukhari. Bukhari doesnt record the hadith that claim to attribute the age to Aisha herself. All such narrations come from Iraq, even those outside sahih Bukhari, and the majority of those are traced to Hisham bin Urwa, Asma's grandson, meaning there is no possibility to verify whether Hisham was involved in those other reports where his name isnt mentionned in the chain, directly or indirectly. Even when Ayman b. Khalid tries finding reports on Aisha's age originating outside Iraq, he still quotes a hadith that includes Urwa in the chain of transmission. So it all goes back to one source ultimately who himself was married to a 9 year old according to his own supporter GFHaddad. In addition to this obvious bias, he is also reported by hadith scholars to have become unreliable in his Iraq period due to him falsifying transmision chains that allegedly came from his father while the sources were different as even modern supporters of his such as Ayman b Khalid concede. Even if one were to consider bin Urwa reliable for argument's sake, while his own student Imam Malik began considering his accounts unreliable in his Iraqi period, we would still be confronted to difficulties showing how any attempt at specificaly determining Aisha's marriage age is not based upon contradiction-free information.

In his article, Khalid quotes a discussion from Tareekh Al-Islam between the historian Imam Adh-Dhahabi and Ibn Abee Az-Zinaad. The latter states Asma was 10 years older than Aisha yet we have bin Urwa claiming Asma lived until 100. Asma died in 73H (Taqri'bu'l-tehzi'b as well as Ibn Kathir's Al-bidayah wa'l-nihayah). If she was 100 in 73H according to bin Urwa himself then it means she was 27 at the time of Hijra. Consequently Aisha was 17 at the time and 18-19 when she married 1 or 2 years later. Knowing this difficulty to harmonize the records available with bin Urwa's, the historian Imam Adh-Dhahabi tries reducing Asma's age at death in order to make it fit with the reports on Aisha's marriage age "If this is true (Asma being 10 years older than Aisha), then the age of Asmaa when she passed away should be ninety-one".

There are political implications in such hadith as well. Aisha opposed Ali, to the point she led the opposite party into battle. Iraq and Kufa were the real centers of political turmoil and the people of Medina especially did not trust them. They further 'claimed' allegiance to the Family of the Prophet, yet we know how 'true' they lived up to their claims. The painting of her as a 'child' and 'not responsible', and one to play with dolls, in the context of who was right and wrong doesnt need to be dwelled upon to understand the motivations of certain narrators.

Public criticism, according to the tradition, was laid at Umar for his trying to marry Fatima, because she was young and Umar was old, almost the same age difference between the Prophet and Aisha. In fact, the traditions record that this was one of the objections of Ali for the union and public criticism had gotten to the point Umar had to defend himself for the move in public. Umar made the point that he only wanted to marry her to affirm his ties with the House of the Prophet. Umar didnt use the precedent of the Prophet marrying Aisha at an alleged young age. Also, if it was a norm of Arab culture, then why would he draw the criticism of the city of Medina for such an act? Further, in the Muwatta which is the representative work on the school of Medina, in the chapter on marrying younger women without asking them, this narration isnt even reported. And you would think, in Medina of all places, the marriage of the Prophet to a young Aisha would serve an evidence for the people of Medina. Where are the examples to substantiate the point of view that such practice was a norm in Arab culture? An interesting point to re-stress is that not only are there no examples to show how such practice was a norm, but also it is reported by GFHaddad that Urwa, the ultimate source of these traditions regarding Aisha's age, just so happenned to have married a 9year old. Besides his poor memory at the time he reported Aisha's age, there is now another reason to seriously doubt his credibility, namely the blatant need to falsify a hadith to serve his interest in justifying an act that far from being the "norm" of the prophet's time, was unacceptable to many including the prophet's own entourage.

Eagle wrote:However i do recall than in the tradition of a certain religion which is that of the vast majority of this forum population, a certain Joseph at 90 married Mary, the mother of Jesus, who was 12


frankie wrote:Where is your evidence to substantiate your claim?


Its from the Catholic Encyclopedia, available online, citing Christian tradition. The Encyclopedia also states that the tradition comes from an apocrypha document, however before you jump and discard the report based on this fact you should keep in mind the following:
1. Church leaders that argued what was inerrant and what was not, never challenged the age, and the evidence points to them accepting it, as the Catholic Enyclopedia states and if i recall correctly, Eastern churches openly declare this information to be true.
2. Not a single 'apocrypha' scripture was rejected based upon the age of Joseph marrying Mary.
3. Just because an apocrypha was rejected, does not mean it was rejected for all of it's contents. For example, the same Apocrypha can say that Jesus was born in a stable and 3 wise-men came and visited her. Is this story 'false' because it's in Apocrypha?
4. One man's apocrypha is another man's scripture, thus the example of the book of Revelation, among other books, being rejected as apocrypha until later on when it was canonized with the remaining books of the Christian Bible (depending on which Christian denomination we are speaking of).
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Re: Reflection

Postby frankie » Sun Jan 20, 2013 4:35 pm

Eagle:
you dismiss authentic Muslim sources, to "jump through hoops" to distance yourself from the basic facts.

Child marriage is prevailent throughout the Muslim world,giving clear evidence that it was legitimised by the Muslim prophet,Mohammed.As pointed out:

Mohammed marrying a child is only a cause for concern because he is said to be the Muslim role model for all times and places.His actions have caused untold suffering for children throughout the centuries,and still do.

The point being,Mohammed legitimised child marriage for all time,only because he is said to be Allahs best example for humanity to follow.Science tells us that child marriage is highly detrimental to a childs mental and physical health,should Allah in his omniscience not have known this to be so,and if he did, why did he not stop Mohammed sexually abusing a child,and legitimising sexual abuse of children for all time?


This leads on to the claim that Mary married Joseph at age 12.According to Jewish culteral practice in this period of history,it is likely Mary would marry at an early age,whether it was age 12 is not actually recorded,and therefore cannot be said to be certain,and in any case is irrelevent to the case of Mohammed and Aisha.Mohammed is classified as mankinds role model for eternity,as per Quran,therefore his words and actions hold sway,plus the fact that it IS recorded Mohammed married Aisha at age 6,and consumated this marriage with her at age nine.

If you care to disagree,you are up against present day evidence,as well as Muslim sources held to be authentic by Muslims themselves.Those that wish to argue against these facts are obviously in total denial,and don't like what they read with regard to their held to be "perfect man".
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Re: Reflection

Postby Melograne » Sat Jan 26, 2013 12:51 am

Eagle wrote:65:4"And (as for) those of your women/nisaa who have despaired of menstruation, if you have a doubt, their prescribed time shall be three months, and of those too who have not had their courses; and (as for) the pregnant women, their prescribed time is that they lay down their burden; and whoever is careful of (his duty to) Allah He will make easy for him his affair".

The verse comes in the context of divorce obviously as seen from the preceding verses, and is an expounding of the general rule mentionned prior in 2:228. It speaks of nisaa which only means women as any Arabic speaking person knows, not atfal/children who havent reached puberty 24:58, and obviously only nisaa can menstruate 2:222.


I have got your point Eagle.
Now if women (nisaa) are the ones who can menstruate, why verse (65: 4) is talking about women (Nisaa) who have not had their periods yet?

So not only qur'an promotes pedophilia but it also does not know what it's talking about!

You said: not atfal/children who havent reached puberty 24:58

obviously only nisaa can menstruate 2:222.!! (this is your point!!!)

So qur'an doesn't know what is talking about !!! Qur'an is talking about nisaa who have not had their periods yet!
It is ridiculous (confirmed by your point)!!!!
And this is another proof qur'an is a muhammad's invention!
In no way God could had told these stupidities!
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