Faith Freedom International

Yohan wrote:

secularmindedhindu wrote:LTTE was not fighting for the cause of the Hindus. They were fighting for the cause of the ethnic Tamils in Sri Lanka. LTTE had many Christians in its ranks and files.

Not all Maoists are Hindus. In Orissa it has been estimated that about 70% of the Maoists are Christians.

Tamils are atleast 95% Hindu, so are the Maoists! The claim was Hindus do not create terrorists. That claim is wrong.

The Tamils in Sri Lanka and the Maoist does not have any adgenda related to Hinduism. Their goal has got nothing to do with Hinduism. Their activities are not religious in character but political in nature.

Yohan wrote:

Nathusam Godse who killed Gandhi was once a member of RSS. But he left RSS at one point of time. When he killed Gandhi he was not a member of RSS. So you cannot link RSS with the assassination of Gandhi. Remember, that in RSS was banned 3 times for political reasons. But the ban had to be revoked after a brief period. As of today, RSS in a legitimate organisation. It is operating legally in India. None of the inernational bodies and western countries have declared their activities as illegal. So if you want to criticise RSS, please provide justification for the same.

"His (Godse's) ties to the Hindu right-wing organisation, the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) led to its ban soon after Gandhi's assassination. The Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh (RSS) to this day deny any connection with Godse and dispute the claim that he was a member."
http://www.economicexpert.com/a/Nathuram:Godse.html

No link between RSS and assasination of Gandhi has ever been established. Supreme Court of India has dismissed all allegation against RSS for their alleged involvement in assasination of Gandhi.

Check below what Justice Kapur Commission report has to say about it.

"...RSS as such were not responsible for the murder of Mahatma Gandhi, meaning thereby that one could not name the organization as such as being responsible for that most diabolical crime, the murder of the apostle of peace".
"It has not been proved that they (the accused) were members of the RSS which shows that they (the accused) were believers in a more violent form of activities..."

Kapur Commission Report, Vol. 1, Page 165

Yohan wrote:The way you write seems to convey that you defend Hindu hardliners in all instances, while claiming 'secular'. Typical Hindu lie I presume.

I am willing to tolerate and even respect any other faith if they are willing to do the same to mine. Thats why I believe that I am secular.

Yohan wrote:More of it was evident in your denial of ties between Sikhism and Islam, but not Hinduism, in another thread. Even when concrete proof was presented, and what everyone else knows well, and when others jolted you on this, you simply walked away. You seem to suffer from too much Hinduism. Such a one can't be 'secular'.

I have already provided enough evidence to backup my statements. This thread is not meant to debate on the ties between Sikhism and Hinduism.

Yohan wrote:

I have never seen a Hindu marrying his/her first cousin. The first cousin is almost regarded as similar to own brother or sister.

If your information about Hindu customs is based upon what you have seen, you have seen nothing yet. You just don't get the complexities of a vast and deep religious culture you are defending here. Actually that is evident from many of your posts here.

Take this task as a home work and report back, so you may learn about your own religious culture better. Clue: 1955 Hindu marriage act prohibited first cousin marriage except in communties with such practises. In this particular community, the practise has diminshed greatly now.

That is why wrote that I have never seen it. I didn't say it never happens. But I can say for sure, marriage between cousins is not common among the Hindus.

marriage between first cousin is not there as a custom in india. i dont know who got this idea and from where.
infact scriptures prohibit marriage between near cousins. so many checks and balances to avoid this kind of marriage. each family is named after gothra or sur name. so that even future generation will not marry from that lineage.

marriage between first cousin is not there as a custom in india.

can you guys define to me in your Hindu culture.. whom do you consider as 1st cousins?? May be your different states.. different languages.. cultural barriers may define who the first cousin is and may be you may have different customs from going North of India to South that you guys don't realize..

yeezevee

secularmindedhindu wrote:The Tamils in Sri Lanka and the Maoist does not have any adgenda related to Hinduism. Their goal has got nothing to do with Hinduism. Their activities are not religious in character but political in nature.

Again the point is that Hindus create terrorists, contrary to the claim here.

No link between RSS and assasination of Gandhi has ever been established. Supreme Court of India has dismissed all allegation against RSS for their alleged involvement in assasination of Gandhi.

Check below what Justice Kapur Commission report has to say about it.

"...RSS as such were not responsible for the murder of Mahatma Gandhi, meaning thereby that one could not name the organization as such as being responsible for that most diabolical crime, the murder of the apostle of peace".
"It has not been proved that they (the accused) were members of the RSS which shows that they (the accused) were believers in a more violent form of activities..."

Kapur Commission Report, Vol. 1, Page 165

People know better! Most often well planned murders can't be proven. The fact is RSS was banned for terrorist activities. Only an RSS supporter would believe in the view you have.

I am willing to tolerate and even respect any other faith if they are willing to do the same to mine. Thats why I believe that I am secular.

You write like a Iranian mullah. Such ones are not secular.

I have already provided enough evidence to backup my statements. This thread is not meant to debate on the ties between Sikhism and Hinduism.

You simply won't accept the realtionships between Sikhism and Islam, which everyone knows.

marriage between cousins i mean a man or women cannot marry the children of brothers of father or children of sister of mother. this is not done in india. there is no custom as such nor history as far as my knowledge goes.
as regards other topics discussed i think they are not relevant.

compassion

compassion wrote:marriage between cousins i mean a man or women cannot marry the children of brothers of father or children of sister of mother. this is not done in india. there is no custom as such nor history as far as my knowledge goes.
as regards other topics discussed i think they are not relevant.

How far does your knowledge go? How old are you? What is the best book on Indian history you have read?

compassion wrote:marriage between first cousin is not there as a custom in india. i dont know who got this idea and from where.
infact scriptures prohibit marriage between near cousins. so many checks and balances to avoid this kind of marriage. each family is named after gothra or sur name. so that even future generation will not marry from that lineage.

Could you provide the scriptures and quotes?

Prohibition of marriage within the Pravara is first found in the Grhyasutras, but there is no similar prohibition of Sagotra marriage. Apastamba, Kausika, Baudhayana and Paraskara, all avoid Pravara but not Gotra.95 From the time of the Dharmasutras, however, Sagotra and Sapinda marriages are being prohibited. Vasistha prohibits Sagotra marriage.96 But the range of Gotra was still very limited and marriage was possible beyond the seventh generation of the father and the fifth of the mother. According to the Apastamba Grhyasutra97 however, the limits of Gotra were extended. It could go too far and was not co-extensive with the seventh generation of the father.

The institution of exogamy seems to have been established subsequent to the beginning of the Christian era. Almost all the metrical Smrtis declare the marriages within the Gotra, ipso facto, invalid. Such marriages could not be legalized, nor the children born of such wedlocks98 But there seems to he still some leniency about marrying a girl within the Gotra, One Smrti99 prescribes only an ordinary atonement for marrying a girl within the Gotra. while later on the marriage is nullified and the punishment is very severe.

The later writers on Dharmasastra are dead against Sagotra and Sapinda marriages. They prohibit not only such marriages but try to explain away ancient statements that might go against them.

The Hindu texts you are talking of, are for the twice born castes, and not for Sudras or Dalits. Sudras or Dalits do not have gotras.

scriptures prohibited marriage between near relatives as given. there is no mention whether it can be followed in sudra caste or not. that is the meaning atributed to the words.

compassion wrote:scriptures prohibited marriage between near relatives as given. there is no mention whether it can be followed in sudra caste or not. that is the meaning atributed to the words.

Brahmins actively follow gotra among Hindus, though once all the twice borns did. Gotra lineage is only for those who claim Aryan ancestry, and Sudras do not. A few Sudras may mimick the Aryan gotra though, but it is phony.

First cousin marriage custom had been followed by Sudra caste community in India. They do not have gotras. So how can gotra rules be applicable to such people who do not have gotra?

caste is not divided by birth but by virtues it is clearly given in bhagavath gita which is the essence of vedas.
the same thing is given in many places in the scriptures. and also even shudras got gotras. gotras indicate lineage or common ancestor or master. it might have been used as unique identification. perfect logistic rights.
what modern business uses logistics. but this logistics already existed from the time of vedic period.

compassion wrote:caste is not divided by birth but by virtues it is clearly given in bhagavath gita which is the essence of vedas.
the same thing is given in many places in the scriptures. and also even shudras got gotras. gotras indicate lineage or common ancestor or master. it might have been used as unique identification. perfect logistic rights.
what modern business uses logistics. but this logistics already existed from the time of vedic period.

Gita also states Sudras are born of evil womb, clearly saying one's caste is given to one by birth. There are more verses like that in Gita. Any way I don't want to make this a debate about caste origins. Let's stick with what Hindus follow as caste today, that is by birth. The name used by Hindus for caste is 'jati' which means 'by birth' also.

Here is a little quote about the custom of first cousin marriages among Hindus in India:
"A much more common characteristic of south Indian Hindu society is permission for marriage between cross-cousins (children of brother and sister). Thus, a man is allowed to marry his maternal uncle's daughter or his paternal aunt's daughter, ------"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotra

even in this life they have conqurred the relative existence whose minds are firm fixed on the sameness of every thing for god is pure and same to all such are said to be living in god.

liberation or moksha or relative existence is possible for any one according the bhagavath gita sloka given above.
so any body can get moksha or liberation from birth or death.
every one is equal. it is the deeds that are important.

there is no where mentioned it is by birth.

there is no dalith caste in the past. people were divided accroding to profession and virtues. this dalith or panchams came after budhism who are seperated form main stream. away from the customs of the vedas.

compassionate.

compassion wrote:even in this life they have conqurred the relative existence whose minds are firm fixed on the sameness of every thing for god is pure and same to all such are said to be living in god.

liberation or moksha or relative existence is possible for any one according the bhagavath gita sloka given above.
so any body can get moksha or liberation from birth or death.
every one is equal. it is the deeds that are important.

there is no where mentioned it is by birth.

there is no dalith caste in the past. people were divided accroding to profession and virtues. this dalith or panchams came after budhism who are seperated form main stream. away from the customs of the vedas.

I assume you now have proof that, contrary to your and other's claims, Hindus marry first cousins.

Secondly, I do not believe in any of the twisting of the Hindu holy criptures done by neo-Hindus (including you) to present the Hindu caste system in a more acceptable manner in the modern world that it was not birth based and so on. For Hindus caste has been birth based for thousands of years as it is today. I also do not believe in blaming the Hindu caste system on Buddhism or anything else except Hinduism. Man does shameful things sometimes for the sake of religion and preserve them for eons. That is what Hindus have done here. Hindus should accept this reality and own upto it. Hindus and Hindus alone should shoulder the responsibility of Caste system and the burden it has put on them. Abdication of this responsibility is cowardice, and a reluctance to change.

Yohan wrote:

secularmindedhindu wrote:No link between RSS and assasination of Gandhi has ever been established. Supreme Court of India has dismissed all allegation against RSS for their alleged involvement in assasination of Gandhi.

Check below what Justice Kapur Commission report has to say about it.

"...RSS as such were not responsible for the murder of Mahatma Gandhi, meaning thereby that one could not name the organization as such as being responsible for that most diabolical crime, the murder of the apostle of peace".
"It has not been proved that they (the accused) were members of the RSS which shows that they (the accused) were believers in a more violent form of activities..."

Kapur Commission Report, Vol. 1, Page 165

People know better! Most often well planned murders can't be proven. The fact is RSS was banned for terrorist activities. Only an RSS supporter would believe in the view you have.

Yohan, do not claim what you cannot backup with facts. In fact you have failed to show that RSS had any link with assasination of Gandhi. As of today RSS is a legitimate organisation. Its actions neither violate any Indian law nor violate any international law. No country has imposed any ban on RSS. No court has ever declared that RSS has been involved in any illegal activities. This is the fact.

The RSS is active throughout India and its influence is spread across different walks of life. The volunteers of the RSS participated in various political and social movements including the freedom movement, the Bhoodan, the Sarvoday and the movement for the restoration of democrasy in India. The RSS is also known for its role in the relief and rehabilitation work during natural calamities.

RSS volunteers rehabilitating the survivors of Tsunami in 2004

First aid centre by RSS volunteers, Gujarat earthquake 2001

RSS volunteers searching for survivors in the ruble of a collapsed building, Gujarat earthquake 2001

Yohan wrote:

compassion wrote:even in this life they have conqurred the relative existence whose minds are firm fixed on the sameness of every thing for god is pure and same to all such are said to be living in god.

liberation or moksha or relative existence is possible for any one according the bhagavath gita sloka given above.
so any body can get moksha or liberation from birth or death.
every one is equal. it is the deeds that are important.

there is no where mentioned it is by birth.

there is no dalith caste in the past. people were divided accroding to profession and virtues. this dalith or panchams came after budhism who are seperated form main stream. away from the customs of the vedas.

I assume you now have proof that, contrary to your and other's claims, Hindus marry first cousins.

Secondly, I do not believe in any of the twisting of the Hindu holy criptures done by neo-Hindus (including you) to present the Hindu caste system in a more acceptable manner in the modern world that it was not birth based and so on. For Hindus caste has been birth based for thousands of years as it is today. I also do not believe in blaming the Hindu caste system on Buddhism or anything else except Hinduism. Man does shameful things sometimes for the sake of religion and preserve them for eons. That is what Hindus have done here. Hindus should accept this reality and own upto it. Hindus and Hindus alone should shoulder the responsibility of Caste system and the burden it has put on them. Abdication of this responsibility is cowardice, and a reluctance to change.

In Hindu scriptures, particularly in Vedas and Gita, the caste system was meant to provide division of labour for the proper functioning of the society. But the people later distorted it to make it hereditary.

secularmindedhindu wrote:Yohan, do not claim what you cannot backup with facts. In fact you have failed to show that RSS had any link with assasination of Gandhi. As of today RSS is a legitimate organisation. Its actions neither violate any Indian law nor violate any international law. No country has imposed any ban on RSS. No court has ever declared that RSS has been involved in any illegal activities. This is the fact.

The RSS is active throughout India and its influence is spread across different walks of life. The volunteers of the RSS participated in various political and social movements including the freedom movement, the Bhoodan, the Sarvoday and the movement for the restoration of democrasy in India. The RSS is also known for its role in the relief and rehabilitation work during natural calamities.

You have been defending RSS here trying to prove it was not involved in Gandhi's killing, Godse was not an RSS member and so on. Such statements can come only from a Hindu fanatic. RSS is an ultra Hindu nationalistic organization operating on the fringes of human civility and dedicated to violence against other religions. It is an organization started by Brahmins, the same community that founded and spread the mad religion, Hinduism. Anyone who defends RSS has to be looked upon with suspicion, - suspicion to religious fanaticsm.

In Hindu scriptures, particularly in Vedas and Gita, the caste system was meant to provide division of labour for the proper functioning of the society. But the people later distorted it to make it hereditary.

This topic also had been discussed to death in this forum. The only one distorting the caste are neo-Hindus like you. Tell the simple truth. That is caste system within the Aryans were flexible but became birth based when Indian natives were brought under the Aryan religion as an inferior people, to keep them apart, all this happened 3000 years ago.

dear yohan

you need not worry about hindu society and its caste system. government is taking so many measure by giving reservations and education and emloyment opportunities to needy and lower caste. system is arleady taken care off.

compassion

compassion starts a thread with "Inter Religious marriages between Hindus and Muslims" ..
and whole thread goes and talks ORTHOGONAL to what it is intended for .

So let me add some relevant links on the TOPIC of interest that is.. "Inter Religious marriages"

http://www.news.faithfreedom.org/index. ... e&sid=2030
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... ?p=1178435
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=48834
http://marriagepartner.com/forum/showthread.php?t=502
http://www.faithfreedom.org/forum/viewt ... 492#903492
http://dikgaj.wordpress.com/2008/08/16/ ... n-kashmir/
http://indiafamily.net/talk/messages/12484/1544.html
http://www.anothersubcontinent.com/foru ... =8426&st=0
http://tenets.parsizoroastrianism.com/falseglory.html

So instead of chit-chating on the issues that are NOT related to heading of the thread.,, you guys could go and read/write in to the above links